MMO's do take skill to do pvp but the skill part was ripped out when the addition of mods were made available. Mods allow players to essentially read their opponents mind and what abilities cooldown is and also let the player know what abilities are no longer on cooldown and when to use certain moves. This does take the random chance out of pvp because you know what to do to counter your opponent.
This does also trivialize pve in MMO's as well because you know when boss special attacks are going to happen and know what to do before the boss performs his move. Random chance is the backbone when playing any RPG because you should not be able to know what moves the boss is going to use against you unless you have fought him and even then you should not know what special move he will use against you during your turn.
I remember when playing wow pre-bc mods barely existed and random chance was a huge part where knowing your class and figuring out what your opponents talent spec was. Now I can figure it out with a single mod that reads the characters data and I know their HP, mana, stats, talent tree, what special abilities are on cooldown, and when an abilitiy of theirs is usable. The only thing I have to do now is just move away or towards the enemy and attack. It really made MMOs become boring.
Danny Ocean: Everything requires skill at a basic level, but it all depends on ho-
Jumplion: The average MMO takes as much skill as you put into it. ... Everything requires atleast some degree of skill, it's wether or not you put the effort in to become skillful.
Danny Ocean: Everything requires skill at a basic level, but it all depends on ho-
Jumplion: The average MMO takes as much skill as you put into it. ... Everything requires atleast some degree of skill, it's wether or not you put the effort in to become skillful.
Oh, bollocks, edit ninja'd. Damn you Jumplion!
A ninja I am not! How insulting to a werewolf!
Oh so it's not okay now, is it?
Well excuse me, but the black fur threw me!
User was mauled for this post. (3.5 Months).
Why all the hate and OT?
Anyway, Everything was said here. I'd like to add though. Luck - is also - a factor - in skill.
People may not agree, but its an overlooked fact.
While its a factor in skill, there is no luck without it... "The most lucky, are the most skilled".
There are some one indeed has to undergo certain amounts of training to master, but the problem with this topic is that MMO's normally have a certain limit to this, whereas in, say, fighting games, one can keep on punching in the combinations, because you will never be able to be ultimate.
Danny Ocean: Everything requires skill at a basic level, but it all depends on ho-
Jumplion: The average MMO takes as much skill as you put into it. ... Everything requires atleast some degree of skill, it's wether or not you put the effort in to become skillful.
Oh, bollocks, edit ninja'd. Damn you Jumplion!
A ninja I am not! How insulting to a werewolf!
Oh so it's not okay now, is it?
Well excuse me, but the black fur threw me!
User was mauled for this post. (3.5 Months).
I don't maul! I slash! Jeez, how about you don't speak for a while, hmm?
MMO combat comes in thre forms: 1)Take turns kicking opponent until somebody runs 2)Both plawers buff themselves then kick eachother until someone runs. 3)Both players buff themselves, debuff their opponent then kick eachother until someone runs. The games run on memorising combinations to win but at a far more diluted level than a fighting game.
WoW takes 0 skill, WoW is a retard check game and if you can't get anything done in that game your a tard. Unfortunately most the people who do play WoW are tards and raiding with them isn't pretty.
Well my MMO experience is limited but lets take WoW. Charge enemy. Spam every de/buff you know. Heal yourself. If you die, wait the minute or so it takes, resurrect and try again. No, it requires very little skill.
KaZZaP: WoW takes 0 skill, WoW is a retard check game and if you can't get anything done in that game your a tard. Unfortunately most the people who do play WoW are tards and raiding with them isn't pretty.
If it required no skill then the tards would be indistinguishable from the pros
If it required no skill then the tards would be indistinguishable from the pros
It doesn't take skill it does however require brains, honestly nothing in that game takes skill and anyone SHOULD be able to play. Some people are just total retards, I remember one guy I played with would put one point into everything thing in his spec and only one point for the multiple level moves. These people don't need skill they need a brain.
DDO requires some skill. The combat is more then just click ur enemy then clikc your power. I mean if you really know what your doing i suppose all MMO's require some sort of "Stratergy" rather then "skill" persay. But no mmo imo comes down to true teamwork and reliance on your other party members more so then ddo.
are we talking all mmo's or just mmorpg's ? because the latter one requires no skill from what i have seen, all you need to know is how to get a successful build, or get lucky and have a good build, games like WoW, city of heroes, conan and anarchy online
Silver: What you're talking about is abusing a game's mechanics, or even bending a game's mechanics to suit the computer "player". That's not what I'm talking about.
A computer can do everything the player can do within the game they're playing. What you described in the original post was how a computer can micromanage and set up a character within an MMO when the computer can micromanage and set up stats in every game it's computed with.
These "exploits" are how the computer was designed to play against you, enemy AI, and wether that's "fair" or not is up to the computer. You want examples that arn't "exploits"? Fine, the computer can aim, shot, run, punch, and do everything the player can do. The only thing that's keeping the computer from whooping your sorry ass is the difficulty settings you put it on. The computer always knows where you are and what you're doing, wether you're sneaking behind a guard or setting up the charges, but it's forced to be "fair" to a human person who doesn't know all these things.
Example: You're sneaking behind a guard, and you throw a soda can to distract it. The computer knows you're there, but it is programmed to say "what was that noise?" and act stupid. It's the programing AI. You cannot "outsmart" the computer because the computer already knows what you're doing. It's just trying to defeat you within the rules.
You can go on about how a computer can "never adapt with creativness" or whatever, but the only reason why it isn't grating your nipples with a cheese grater is because the programers want to make AI like a human so it's more "fair".
No, you're just being an idiot about it. I'm not talking about a bot.
I'm talking about a computer given the same (and nothing more) input as the player of the game. Do you understand this sentence, it's kind of crucial? If you don't, then please don't respond with anything but "please explain that sentence".
In that case a computer doesn't know everything, that's why you can outsmart it. I'm talking about an external computer on equal terms with the player. It won't know everything that's happening. It can't. Because the player can't.
Then you can beat it, then you can outsmart it. Unless you're playing an mmorpg. Perhaps if you're playing some regular rpgs, but most likely not in that case either. It'd come down to pure stats in that case, and thus pure luck.
I played WoW for three and a half years, and was a haaardcore raider, and therefore I'm in a good position to speak about this with authority.
I was, until 5 seconds ago, gonna say 'they require some skill,' but i change my mind. I don't think MMOs require skills because basically every part of the gameplay has to do with rote learning - which is something almost every human and some animals are able to do.
ultimasupersaiyan: MMO's don't require much skills at all really. Just click on the mob and hope it dies before you do. I play FFXI and the only skills you need is to know are always fight in a party and paladin is overall the best and safest job to solo as. Ok ok there also the encyclopedic knowledge required to abuse enemy weaknesses but almost nobody does that unless there a Black Mage in FFXI.
You sir suck. Now I don't play anymore and haven't for 3 years. But, I mean common seriously.. Paladin as the best solo job? Are you retarded? Have you never heard of beast master which basically solo's all of it's levels until around 65? Or maybe a Red Mage/Ninja Soloing many of the Notorious Monsters? Hell Paladin is an alright tank but even in most cases it's better to have a Ninja/Warrior. So please before you start saying something requires no skill, at least know something about the game. Every line in your post is absolute gold to anyone who's played for a fair while.
First of all Mister Benoit, Your sir need to calm the frick down and keep your aggresive opinon to yourself. PLD can solo. There are certain styles of soloing. Not all of them have to be about "best balanced damage output". And since you haven't played in the past 3 years, there have been some major additions/expansions that you have missed out on. I'm trying not to raz, but your reply was outright meaningless.
On to the point of the forum. No. MMO's do not require skill. It's all knowledge. I do disagree with ultimasupersaiyan on how in FFXI only 1 job needs to know how to exploit mobs weaknesses, but it proves that having the knowledge ALLOWS you to exploit it. Yes, you learn timing/events for the skills/spells/whatever, but the knowledge helps to know when to use them and why. I guess you can argue that the timing factor is something you perfect, and that can relate to skill, but without the knowledge, there is no skill.
Don't think I've used the word knowledge enough ...
It requires the skill to use a keyboard and mouse, which believe it or not, some people don't have. Other then that, most MMO's just require lots of patience and trial and error.
most mmos require that the player know how to strategically build their characters (something that can easily be looked up in a walkthrough or a forum), and have a rudimentary knowledge of battle strategy. it is becuase of this that i stopped playing mmos about 10 months ago. the main problem is that there is no gain from mmos, with fighting games comes faster reflexes, with puzzle games comes an enhanced thought process, with mmos come 3+ months wasted maxing out one's character
Silver: What you're talking about is abusing a game's mechanics, or even bending a game's mechanics to suit the computer "player". That's not what I'm talking about.
A computer can do everything the player can do within the game they're playing. What you described in the original post was how a computer can micromanage and set up a character within an MMO when the computer can micromanage and set up stats in every game it's computed with.
These "exploits" are how the computer was designed to play against you, enemy AI, and wether that's "fair" or not is up to the computer. You want examples that arn't "exploits"? Fine, the computer can aim, shot, run, punch, and do everything the player can do. The only thing that's keeping the computer from whooping your sorry ass is the difficulty settings you put it on. The computer always knows where you are and what you're doing, wether you're sneaking behind a guard or setting up the charges, but it's forced to be "fair" to a human person who doesn't know all these things.
Example: You're sneaking behind a guard, and you throw a soda can to distract it. The computer knows you're there, but it is programmed to say "what was that noise?" and act stupid. It's the programing AI. You cannot "outsmart" the computer because the computer already knows what you're doing. It's just trying to defeat you within the rules.
You can go on about how a computer can "never adapt with creativness" or whatever, but the only reason why it isn't grating your nipples with a cheese grater is because the programers want to make AI like a human so it's more "fair".
No, you're just being an idiot about it. I'm not talking about a bot.
I'm talking about a computer given the same (and nothing more) input as the player of the game. Do you understand this sentence, it's kind of crucial? If you don't, then please don't respond with anything but "please explain that sentence".
In that case a computer doesn't know everything, that's why you can outsmart it. I'm talking about an external computer on equal terms with the player. It won't know everything that's happening. It can't. Because the player can't.
Then you can beat it, then you can outsmart it. Unless you're playing an mmorpg. Perhaps if you're playing some regular rpgs, but most likely not in that case either. It'd come down to pure stats in that case, and thus pure luck.
Don't lower yourself to petty name-calling, it undermines your whole point that you're trying to say.
Other than that, I don't have anything nor to I feel like adding anything to this argument. You've put up your side I've put up mine.
Nothing -requires- skill. It's just easier on the person who's got it. That is: Anyone can write a novel, it takes the person who is skilled to write a good one. Gaming is no different from any other pastime, job or vocation in this regard.
Some things require skill, you just think about stuff to much, I mean a person who didn't have a brain couldn't write a novel.
Hehe, not true at all. It probably wouldn't contain anything worth reading, or even be legible, but, yes, a person with limited intelligence could indeed write a book. Although, I fail to see your point if we take it that said person literally does not have a brain, in which case said person would well, dead -_^
So fine, here's the definition of 'skill' :
skill Noun 1. special ability or expertise enabling one to perform an activity very well 2. something, such as a trade, requiring special training or expertise [Old Norse skil distinction] skilled adj
1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability. 2. a. An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body. b. A developed talent or ability: writing skills.
People rarely start off with any notion of how to do a thing, they only get better by doing. Those that excel with less effort are usually referred to as talented, those that work hard and become skilled are the others.
A better argument for this topic would be: Do games/mmos require little skill to play? Not as it is, as -all- games no matter the difficulty, do have things you learn while playing, and thus increase your own 'skill' at them.
Jumplion: Don't lower yourself to petty name-calling, it undermines your whole point that you're trying to say.
Other than that, I don't have anything nor to I feel like adding anything to this argument. You've put up your side I've put up mine.
No, you've put up a point that doesn't have much to do with my point, at all. You're talking about something completely different. Since you still don't quite get that, I'd say my namecalling, if a bit uncalled for, is pretty much justified, in the same way I think it'd be justified if someone started talking about how good a unit in Starcraft is when talking about redalert. It's sort of related, sure, it's about games, and the same type of games even, but it doesn't really say anything about the subject at hand. You're ignoring the subject I brought up, and still try to argue against my points.
Silver: It's not graphical, if that's what you're asking. It does play the game. You can check on all the stats, you can check what it's doing all the time, it tells you what it does all the time, that it's selling stuff, that it's buying stuff, etc.
And yeah, I imagine some parts of an mmo does take management skills. Most people in the game though, aren't affected by that part. And I suspect a computer could do it just as well, especially with other computers.
Then how do you know if the program is actualy playing another game instead of just telling you that it is? I can tell you all about how i'm currently wtfpwning in arena and give a list of numbers supposedly reffering to my talent spec but that doesn't change the fact that my wow account is disabled atm because of financial troubles. If you get a program that can take a lvl 50 wow account and spit out a 55 wow account a day later with all quests between lvl 50 and 55 completed and cleared BRD in the process, then i'll believe you that your application can play mmos.
MMO's do take skill to do pvp but the skill part was ripped out when the addition of mods were made available. Mods allow players to essentially read their opponents mind and what abilities cooldown is and also let the player know what abilities are no longer on cooldown and when to use certain moves. This does take the random chance out of pvp because you know what to do to counter your opponent.
This does also trivialize pve in MMO's as well because you know when boss special attacks are going to happen and know what to do before the boss performs his move. Random chance is the backbone when playing any RPG because you should not be able to know what moves the boss is going to use against you unless you have fought him and even then you should not know what special move he will use against you during your turn.
I remember when playing wow pre-bc mods barely existed and random chance was a huge part where knowing your class and figuring out what your opponents talent spec was. Now I can figure it out with a single mod that reads the characters data and I know their HP, mana, stats, talent tree, what special abilities are on cooldown, and when an abilitiy of theirs is usable. The only thing I have to do now is just move away or towards the enemy and attack. It really made MMOs become boring.