i sense a tremendous amount of hate here. It requires a greater strategic skill and perception to play an MMO (or RPG), but not skill in the same sense as an FPS

Silver:

Jumplion:
Don't lower yourself to petty name-calling, it undermines your whole point that you're trying to say.

Other than that, I don't have anything nor to I feel like adding anything to this argument. You've put up your side I've put up mine.

No, you've put up a point that doesn't have much to do with my point, at all. You're talking about something completely different. Since you still don't quite get that, I'd say my namecalling, if a bit uncalled for, is pretty much justified, in the same way I think it'd be justified if someone started talking about how good a unit in Starcraft is when talking about redalert. It's sort of related, sure, it's about games, and the same type of games even, but it doesn't really say anything about the subject at hand. You're ignoring the subject I brought up, and still try to argue against my points.

Arguing for your points is a bit late since I already gave up the argument we had. You can keep defending your points to people, just not with me. We've been there and done that.

The debate we had was fun while it lasted, but let's not continue it unnecisarily.

Theres a certain amoung of skill. Its just about stratgie and planning rather than reflexes.

pantsoffdanceoff:
I think the most skill oriented MMORPG would probably be guild wars. You only get to have 8 attack slots so you have to choose your skills wisely and make sure they can work in any situation and that's a bitch to do. WoW takes little skill only a serious time commitment and yes I've played WoW so I'm not just trolling.

this was true until arenanet started getting drunk before updating skills. I mean, a single monk skill that removes up to 10 hexes and conditions? nope, not overpowered at all.

Oisnafas:

pantsoffdanceoff:
I think the most skill oriented MMORPG would probably be guild wars. You only get to have 8 attack slots so you have to choose your skills wisely and make sure they can work in any situation and that's a bitch to do. WoW takes little skill only a serious time commitment and yes I've played WoW so I'm not just trolling.

this was true until arenanet started getting drunk before updating skills. I mean, a single monk skill that removes up to 10 hexes and conditions? nope, not overpowered at all.

Lol, very true.

Almost all games require skill to a certain degree. MMO's and RPG's tend to have far more that needs to be tracked all at once, depending on party size for MMO's. If two large groups are versing each other in PvP say, the volume of info that has to be tracked (buffs, pets, party health for healers, and what have you) means being able to multitask and sort through it quickly.

I don't play many FPS's simply because I'm wierd, but I'm sure beyond quick judgement and hand-eye coordination other skills would be required.

And both FPS's and MMO's can foster team work.

An mmo requires that you know and understand your limits.
An FPS requires that you push and test your limits.

So you're saying given the same gear, talent spec, and class compositions in two 3v3 arena teams in WoW, it should be a 50% chance of victory every time?

It really depends on the MMO. There's a France-based Strategy MMO I used to play, called Dofus, which was turn based.

I quit because levelling took an obnoxious amount of time and quests yielded on average 500XP (you need 1,000,000XP total XP to get to level 35 or so), and the level cap was 200 (you stop gaining new abilities at 100 but continue to gain stats and point to level abilities afterwards), so it catered to the crowd with nothing better to do but grind.

Anyways, it did take skill and strategy as a turn-based team combat MMO. If this sounds appealing to you, try googling it. On a side-note, if they basically started you at level 100 with stats to place and all of your abilities already, it would be a much more fun game.

The way most people play traditional PvE MMORPGs, they take absolutely no skill.

Let's say you're on the hunt for new gear. Do you?

A) Go collect a bunch of loot, then compare the various stats, and decide what fits your character the best?
B) Determine what stats you need, then go to MMOWEBSITE to find out what has it, then go after it?
C) Go to MMOWEBSITE, find out what the optimal build is, then grind the hell out of what it tells you too till you get there.

Most people I've talked to advocate playing like C. I think it goes without saying that C take no skill and little effort, apart from free time, and button mashing. Sure, someone needed to figure out that build, but it wasn't you, and so it took you NO skill to do that.

Another little test.

You fight a boss with a party / raid and try a new strategy. What happens?
A) Everyone gets together afterwards and discusses how the strategy could be better.
B) Everyone yells at you for not doing it the way that everyone else does, and tells you that you suck at the game, and shouldn't be in the guild.

Guess which one is the activity of a skill-based game, and which one isn't? Doing things the same way as all the other people is not a skill. Any game that encourages you to play it in exactly one way takes no _real_ skill to play. AND, every time that you tell someone they're doing it wrong because they don't follow everyone's lead, you are ADMITTING that your game takes no skill.

As another analogy; back in the day of test-based adventures.... finding the play though of the game and typing the commands in the order given takes as much skill as looking on whatever MMO site and following those directions to bring down RAID BOSS.

Follow ups to predicted criticisms:

No, I'm not JUST some bitter player. I can follow directions as well as anyone else. I just don't find it challenging.

'Well *I* don't play the game that way' Bully for you. I'm obviously not talking about you.

It require a different type of skill: Social skill.

You can be an a-hole and the world's greatest Halo player, but you won't above 5 man instances in WoW.

Littaly:
It require a different type of skill: Social skill.

You can be an a-hole and the world's greatest Halo player, but you won't above 5 man instances in WoW.

This is exactly true. I am not a super, online player because I don't enjoy going around making "virtual friends", as such I don't enjoy using the primary skills that these game-types center around.

Littaly:
It require[s] a different type of skill: Social skill.

The reason why us anti-social hermits can never get that deep into a MMORPG and end up complaining about how they are skill-less wastes of time probably has a lot do with this. A lot of us don't like having to deal with strangers or coordinate all our friends to play. We just want to play a good game that doesn't demand massive social obligations from us...

...which might be a fair indication we've got the wrong genre.

Belair 1955:

Every type of game can be boiled down the same way as people do MMORPG's, thus proving they too require no skill:

Shooters: Point and click and someone dies. Run around shooting things.

RTS: Make resources, make units, kill the other guy.

Fighter: Mash the attack button 'till the other guy dies.

However, I believe everyone who plays these games beyond a basic level will argue that I am dead wrong, that the game is deeper than that, and that it does require skill!

"That game is not the simple atrocity you are trying to make it Sir! That is only a very shallow overview of some of the basics of that type of game, I am outraged!". you say.

And thus I make my point.
/end nerdrage

Respect.

In my opinion, as Belair points out here in a nutshell, there are different types of skill!
One cannot simply define "skill". "Skill" is just as broad a term as "smart". One could be a math genius and not know two shits and a damn about english or grammar.
I have a friend who has a certain gift with FPS games, but when it comes to any other gameplay that doesn't involve a gun, he's... er... embarrassing. Sorry Chris, if you ever read this :)

I don't understand what people call "skill" in games because for the most part, hell, probably for just about every game is a mix of some knowledge of the game which is obviously easily accessible through, like, playing it, certain amount of reflexes and maybe hand-eye coordination, and then again it's not required to be at some kind of a superhuman level, probably just about anyone can do that... Oh and knowledge of the skills/attack chains.

And my opinion on fighting games might be a bit biased and stuff, but for some reason i tend to win a lot against people who are better then me just by mashing all buttons or spamming some kick O_O

Littaly:
It require a different type of skill: Social skill.

You can be an a-hole and the world's greatest Halo player, but you won't above 5 man instances in WoW.

The social skill required in MMOs is minimal.

pantsoffdanceoff:
I think the most skill oriented MMORPG would probably be guild wars. You only get to have 8 attack slots so you have to choose your skills wisely and make sure they can work in any situation and that's a bitch to do. WoW takes little skill only a serious time commitment and yes I've played WoW so I'm not just trolling.

Guild Wars reference! You win. (not sarcastic)

It takes a certain amount of skill, sure. Sort of like how 2Fort takes a certain amount of skill. (For those of you not following along at home that means that MMOs take a different kind of skill)

every game require skill. In MMO's you kick and make sur some thing die befor you to, in FPS you click and hope you kill it, in racing games you turn and work with up to 3 other buttons. while rythme games require working a beat.

so yes every game requires skill to play, now im going to go and play me soem chinese checkers.

CIA:

pantsoffdanceoff:
I think the most skill oriented MMORPG would probably be guild wars. You only get to have 8 attack slots so you have to choose your skills wisely and make sure they can work in any situation and that's a bitch to do. WoW takes little skill only a serious time commitment and yes I've played WoW so I'm not just trolling.

Guild Wars reference! You win. (not sarcastic)

It takes a certain amount of skill, sure. Sort of like how 2Fort takes a certain amount of skill. (For those of you not following along at home that means that MMOs take a different kind of skill)

TF2 DOES take a lot of skill. It's my go to excuse as to why I suck so hard at it.

Arsen:
Okay, let me rephrase this so that it makes sense. It DOES require skill within the light that a player needs to know:

A. Attack Patterns
B. How to use their own class
C. Movement and technique

However, this isn't skill on the same level as a fighting game, FPS, or anything technical. Not knocking ALL MMO's and RPG's for this, however the majority of MMO's all cater to someone's ability to play on the same field REGARDLESS OF SKILL (winkwink Balacing knudgeknudge) instead of having default gamer instincts.

These kids on WoW these days would get schooled in 2Fort. The real one, not the TF2 Toy Story knockoff.

Play Lunia, then STFU.

Gormourn:

Littaly:
It require a different type of skill: Social skill.

You can be an a-hole and the world's greatest Halo player, but you won't above 5 man instances in WoW.

The social skill required in MMOs is minimal.

It depends on how you define being a successful MMO player. A skilled PvP player requires no social skill. But to stick with a guild for long enough for them to take down the Lich King you do need a lot, especially if you want to be there for the kill. Being a guild officer is also a heavy task, you won't get respect if people don't feel comfortable around you, and you won't stay on your position long if people don't like you. I'm not even gonna go into guild leading, to lead a successful guild is a task you need to be a natural leader to do, not only be respected and liked by your fellow members, but also able to organize it in a way that satisfies everyone.

Like in most games, sheer button mashing will get you so far, but I challenge you to take down the Manaetic Behemoth on the Plane of Innovation without skill/co-operation and a few KEI's.

I've played MMO's in my life and people who think MMO's don't require skill are the reason I left, because they usually suck and piss others off. MMO's are pretty much turn based battles only with you nudging your played in one direction or the other. The main point of the game is builds, gear and stats, once those are worked out well you're good to go, but people seem to fail at doing even one of those three quite often.

pantsoffdanceoff:

CIA:

pantsoffdanceoff:
I think the most skill oriented MMORPG would probably be guild wars. You only get to have 8 attack slots so you have to choose your skills wisely and make sure they can work in any situation and that's a bitch to do. WoW takes little skill only a serious time commitment and yes I've played WoW so I'm not just trolling.

Guild Wars reference! You win. (not sarcastic)

It takes a certain amount of skill, sure. Sort of like how 2Fort takes a certain amount of skill. (For those of you not following along at home that means that MMOs take a different kind of skill)

TF2 DOES take a lot of skill. It's my go to excuse as to why I suck so hard at it.

I never said that it didn't take a lot of skill.

CIA:

I never said that it didn't take a lot of skill.

I know, I was agreeing with you. My bad for not making it clearer.

Choose choice 3.

Why?
Because it depends on what kind of MMO it is.
MMO RPG usually do not require any skills other then being able to choose the best course of action to either run or fight.
While MMO FPS is said to require skills instead.
And MMO Hack-n-slash require more skills.

i chose the 3rd one.

Mister Benoit:

ultimasupersaiyan:
MMO's don't require much skills at all really. Just click on the mob and hope it dies before you do. I play FFXI and the only skills you need is to know are always fight in a party and paladin is overall the best and safest job to solo as. Ok ok there also the encyclopedic knowledge required to abuse enemy weaknesses but almost nobody does that unless there a Black Mage in FFXI.

You sir suck. Now I don't play anymore and haven't for 3 years. But, I mean common seriously.. Paladin as the best solo job? Are you retarded? Have you never heard of beast master which basically solo's all of it's levels until around 65? Or maybe a Red Mage/Ninja Soloing many of the Notorious Monsters? Hell Paladin is an alright tank but even in most cases it's better to have a Ninja/Warrior. So please before you start saying something requires no skill, at least know something about the game. Every line in your post is absolute gold to anyone who's played for a fair while.

This thread is a little TL;DR for me because I don't really care, but I felt this post was worth commenting on.

Wouldn't this be evidence of how MMOs don't require skill because you need to only choose the right class to do well in certain situations? I mean (having never played FFXI), if a paladin is a good tank, but not the best for PvE in the long term, wouldn't a person with good gaming skills be able to overcome this disadvantage? Compare to TF2. A medic is not a good combatant, but I have a friend that kicks ass with one. If TF2 was FFXI, a medic (or white mage) wouldn't be able to really kill much, no matter how well the player plays the game. Granted, there is a little luck involved, like having your enemy not facing you while you run up with your bone saw, but how would you expect to get away with anything like that in an MMO?

Belair 1955:
*Snip*

QFT.

Any genre of game can be boiled down to basics that require absolutely no skill to grasp. To steal Belair's point; its the people who take the game beyond basic level that will start to develop skill.

Flying-Emu:

veekter:

Flying-Emu:

veekter:
i don't count thought/strategy as skill, so i say they don't

Thought and strategy is the basis OF skill...

@topic

Management and mathematics skill; I.E. Will this +16 strength increase my attack power more than these gloves which give +34 melee attack power?

true, but when i think gaming skill i think of the twitchy reflexes you get from playing excessive counter-strike

I see. So strategic discipline and knowledge of tactics in, say, Starcraft and Dawn of War, doesn't constitute skill?

not unless you're required to react in a precise way with split-second timing,
but mmorpg skill is different from general game skill

I would argue that skill is involved, it's more mental skill coupled with hand eye coordination, like an FPS, but it goes further then "this gun does this to human flesh and shooting a certain part of the body hurts them more" or "shoot till dead"
(I'm not trying to over-simplify FPS games, i'm not a fan but i wouldn't pretend that skill isn't involved.)
In MMO's however it's a case of having a wide catalogue of moves with varying affects and such and only a handful of tem are useful in a handful of situations., and of course being able to coordinate several people at once doing this i would say takes some real skill.
(In that sense i'm talking about leading raids and stuff, i'd never do it because i never remember half of the stuff i'd need.)

So yes, Skill in MMO's is needed.

Hell it took me 2-3 years of playing WoW to understand what i'm doing and i still get trounced in PvP means i'm not very skillful.

MMO's, like virtually anything else people can do in life does have certain skill sets associated with it. The thing is, most of the skills that allow people to excel at MMO's are remarkably diffrent than the skills required to excel in say a FPS game.

As an example, FPS games tend to focus on the "now" mindset and tend to invoke a lot of skills that revolve around snap decision making and technical ability. For the most part, the most important skills in FPS games involve target recognition and acquisition, understanding of weapon/item roles and the ability to rapidly switch between them and the capacity to understand your player's relation to the gamespace (i.e being in cover, not falling off a cliff and so on).

In MMO's on the other hand, much of the "skill" involves understanding the mechanics of your abilities and knowing when a certain ability will be most useful. Snap decisions are rare in MMO's, which often gives a player a fair amount of time to assess the situation. Since most of what players do in FPS is handled automagically by the "character" in an MMO the player's key skills involve target recognition/prioritizing and near term strategic thinking (i.e. is it quicker to hit them with 2 DOT attacks and then one big attack or perhaps 1 DOT and 2 big attacks, or should I keep the tank alive or our caster)

It depends on what youre doing in-game. For example if youre doing standard quests or doing some pvp etc.

It seems a fair few of you see MMO's as killing creatures to level. In a game like WoW, leveling is essentially the tutorial for the game, as the whole thing doesn't kick off until you reach end game content. Some of this stuff is incredibly hard (not at the minute, the new expansion content is fairly trivial) and very few will even see it never mind complete it due to it's difficulty.

I voted 'yes', but i should have voted 'to an extent' the same as all games.