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Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 882 Joined: 1 Jan 2008     | |
BANNED  Posts: 2340 Joined: 27 May 2008     |
Personally I'm a Libertarian and I didn't find the game preachy at all, nor did I find it pro-Christian. I think that Bioshock's take on Objectivism and Ayn Rand is a rather fresh idea, as it gives you enough of the positives and negatives of said philosophy that you may actually look it up later. Ryan's 'does a man not deserve the sweat of his brow' speech at the starting sums up Objectivist commentary of modern society. If anything, I think it's a cautionary tale about both genetic splicing and utopian values. Genetically it argues that if we continue to change ourselves, do we stop being human, or do we become more human? (case in point is Fontaine as the Atlas-like figure at the end) As for utopian values, it seems to simply say that no system is perfect, and the best way to help make your system at least good is to recognize that it isn't perfect, unless you want people like Fontaine to sneak up behind you. Funny enough, Rand comments on similar events occuring if utopian ideals are followed, so she might actually be proud that someone made this as a warning to her cause. User was banned for: [NEW SCREENIES]Prototype [HOLY SHIT]. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3185 Joined: 24 Dec 2008    |
HE HAD A SPOILARSE IN IT. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 988 Joined: 22 Sep 2008     |
Maybe "preachy" is the wrong word, but I find that it portrays the objectivist philosophy (or at least its implementation) in a rather negative light... The "good" is a return to the normalcy of the surface, the "bad" a destruction of that normalcy. The pro-religious statements are not incredibly overt, but there is a very strong suggestion that objectivism is evil precisely because it is an intense sort of hedonism; ADAM can also be read as a cautionary tale about playing god and all that, too. What does run somewhat contrary, though, is that Fontaine serves as a metaphor for unbridled market forces; it is his lust for profit and power that causes him to cause so much destruction, and by the time Ryan responds by imposing limitations upon the market and society, it is already too late.This might all be a case of reading just a bit too much into things, though, because I have read interviews with Levine and he hasn't seemed to have given the story nearly as much thought as some fans have. |
BANNED Posts: 2340 Joined: 27 May 2008 |
Well if they are using Fontaine as a example of free market forces, then I severely doubt the effectiveness of that metaphor. Objectivism does not argue for riots or armed conflict in the market, nor is it about absolute profit or power, it is about producing for the self and no one else. If indeed this is what they are suggesting as you said, then yes it could be seen as a poor review of Objectivism, however for anyone with any background on the subject they would probably see it as just a weak argument. User was banned for: [NEW SCREENIES]Prototype [HOLY SHIT]. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1173 Joined: 21 Oct 2008  | I liked it. The gameplay was shallow as hell, but the immersion of the game was so great I really didn't care. People shouldn't bitch about vita chambers because its a moot point. Every PC shooter game has the old quicksave/load keys, which I was so use to that every time I died I used them instead of the chambers. Also anyone else think the Sander Cohen/Fort Frolic stage was one of the best designed levels in years? It was the only part of the game that really scared me. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 484 Joined: 19 Nov 2008     |
It was certainly eery, although the only bit I found truly worrying was the bit in the theatre. The rest wasn't particularly scary in the sense that it made me want to stop I actually found the first part of Arcadia, with the first houdini splicer a lot scarier. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 706 Joined: 8 Sep 2008    | anyone who says bioshock sucked is lying. you can say other things are better, but if you say its bad then your completely fucking amish and, like all amish people, should be set to the flame and returned to your demon masters. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 484 Joined: 19 Nov 2008 |
Ahh, internet argument at it's most eloquent. ;) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1331 Joined: 22 Oct 2008   | It's been said time and again: If you don't like how easy the Vita-chambers make the game, don't use them. It's as simple as that. |
King of the Yetis  Posts: 2539 Joined: 15 Jul 2008   |
Except the graphics. Oh and the weapon degradation. And the fact it's Sci fi while Bioshock has a fucking awesome art-deco-steampunk thing going on. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 147 Joined: 10 Sep 2008  | Bioshock is awesome, I played it last year when I got my xbox, I don't remember much of the story line since when I was playing the last part of the game, one of my friends kept talking to me. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 793 Joined: 6 Dec 2007     |
I agree with you that System Shock 2 is better that Bioshock. It's miles and miles ahead of Bioshock. But that does not make Bioshock a bad game. It's still one of the most interesting and well made games in recent years, even if System Shock 2 beats it any day of the week. But System Shock 2 beats most games any day of the week. But that doesn't make other games bad. It's unfair to compare other games to games like Baldur's Gate 2, System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. It was a golden age that cannot come back :p /old cynical guy rant. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 518 Joined: 15 Dec 2007  | Yeah, Bioshock was a pretty good game but way way too easy. Being able to wrench kill every big daddy is not challenging. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2151 Joined: 11 Nov 2008   |
nope |
Beat Writer  Posts: 223 Joined: 6 Dec 2007    |
Really? I could never do that. I found the difficulty to be pretty good, myself. Maybe charging on the Vita chambers; that I can see as a good thing. But there are increased difficulty levels for people who want it. I never got to play System Shock and I hear it's great, but I don't think that takes away from the experience I had with Bioshock. It's not like playing Metal Gear Solid 2 takes away from your experience playing Metal Gear Solid. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1394 Joined: 31 Aug 2008  |
Bioshock may not have been as good as System Shock 2, but it was still pretty good, especially when compared to the other games that have been coming out recently. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 988 Joined: 22 Sep 2008 |
It's possible to do even on hard mode if you use the right tonics, but you can't do it from the beginning. There's several tonics that increase wrench damage and give you health whenever you hit an enemy with it, which makes it easily the most powerful weapon in the game. It's a shame, too... in System Shock 2, the wrench is so useful simply because there is very little ammo and you have to rely on it if you want to survive. In BioShock, there is ammo literally everywhere and the wrench is still the way to go.
Graphics are a moot point. System Shock 2 came out in bloody 1999, and it runs on the Dark Engine, which isn't exactly known for producing the best-looking games out there. The weapon degredation was acknowledged as being too drastic by the creators, and the patch allows you to either disable it or reduce it by whatever degree you choose. The sci-fi aesthetic may not be universally appealing, and it's definitely more generic, but it's still solely a matter of taste. I do like steampunk and its derivatives, but that doesn't make other genres and settings less compelling. Your points are all invalid. Goodbye. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1341 Joined: 19 Jun 2008   | For the love of God, do NOT kill the little sisters! The bad ending sucks! Bioshock is on my top ten list of games I've played. The Randian philosophy tie-ins hit me in all the right places. It's not a perfect game, but it's definitely a step in the right direction, especially in terms of story. Video games need more real meaning in their stories. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1019 Joined: 5 Jan 2009  | I quite liked Bioshock personally. I wouldn't say that it was game of the year though... I don't think I've played a game which I would consider game of the year except from the Half Life series. And yeah, the vita chambers did make the game less scary. Like Yahtzee said, once you realise there's no penalty for dying there's no point in being cautious. |
Beat Writer Posts: 223 Joined: 6 Dec 2007 |
It wasn't for me--but I tend to spread my strengths out, instead of concentrating them all in one spot. Just a different way to play. I see how it can be done now, however. Thanks. |
On the Record  Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007  |
System Shock 2 did an undersea period piece steampunk utopia based on a philosophy that is undone by both the inherent contradictions present in the system and its failure to deal with the inevitable creation of a population that rejects the guiding principle of that society, and descends into a horrific nightmarish funhouse mirror portrait of that utopia? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2174 Joined: 2 Aug 2006    |
I don't know about this, really. I played them both. While it's true that System Shock 2 had a more in-depth RPG mechanic and was more cerebrally satsifying, the BioShock story was much richer, the plasmids had a more active role than most Psi powers, and the combination of plasmids with weapons overall gave more freedom to the player. Overall, I'd say BioShock was an improvement, even if some important things were streamlined out. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1151 Joined: 7 Dec 2008  | Am I the only one who didn't like BioShock? I mean, it was okay, but I thought it should have ended about half-way through. I got bored with the combat and just plain bored far before the end. I thought it was okay, not great. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 207 Joined: 15 Aug 2008 | Well I can't wait for Bioshock 2. Saw the trailer for it today. Looks like the faschizzy-in-this-gameschizzy-boshittykerp...I don't know what the hell I'm saying. IT just gets me all worked up just thinking about it!) |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Well, I think that was the point: to show the negatives of Objectivist philosophy. There's a line in _Atlas Shrugged_ where one of the characters who runs his own company says that he'd be willing to give up his own company 'to sweep up the factory floor' or something, if that company was John Galt's: in other words, sometimes the rational choice is to take a lesser position in a bigger company, to serve in heaven rather than reign in hell, the question Milton posed in _Paradise Lost_. Well, I remember something in _BioShock_ about that, about how part of why it collapsed was that 'someone had to be the janitors'. I thought that's what a lot of _BioShock_ was about: showing the weakness of that line, which really is the lynchpin of a lot of Objectivist Philosophy, that the free market is the richest market for each and every member of the market who is willing to work.
Actually, |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
I wouldn't say it was pro-Christian or anti-Atheist: I think it was making a point about how a society without a state religion can still be based on an oppressive ideology that denies freedom of thought to its people. What I think they were doing is pointing out how Objectivism says it's for total freedom, especially of property, but only if you're seeking to use your reason and your property to produce more wealth. In other words, you can enjoy your wealth if you're doing so out of hedonism, but not out of altruism. I think they were going for the issue in interpreting Rand's _The Virtue of Selfishness_ that if everything is done because it makes us feel good, then why is altruism off-limits? If altruism makes me feel good, don't I have just as much a right to indulge that urge with my property as someone who uses their property to feel good by indulging their hedonism? That if I want, why can't I encourage people to be lazy, if that's what I want to do with my property? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1495 Joined: 4 Oct 2008 |
Not really, but it is inevitable to stop them from occurring. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1282 Joined: 7 Nov 2007     |
While I personally think System Shock was the better game, System Shock 2 came with much needed technical/gameplay/graphical updates - so that's the one that holds up better against todays titles. Bioshock is by no means a bad game. It just keeps getting rather unfairly compared to System Shock 2 - mostly because of Yahtzee's review of it. Much like Painkiller and Psychonauts, only a very small percentage of people who have an opinion of these games had played them when they actually came out. A much larger percentage joined in on the fun in the last twelve months. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 798 Joined: 28 Dec 2008  |
Actually it was a putter. But you just made an interesting point that could potentially play into the sequel. Or a game in the future since this is supposed to be a trilogy. Ryan could come back and... |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 971 Joined: 12 Dec 2008    | My friend just got Bioshock for 5 dollars during the Steam Holiday sale. 5 DOLLARS!?!?!? |
Beat Writer  Posts: 178 Joined: 24 Dec 2008 | I know Steam went mad and so did I, I bought a shit load of games for only 65$ that would have normally costed me around 150$ in retail. Why are people always going on about Bioshock being the same as Systemshock? It's like comparing the 2008 gold medal winner with the 1968 gold medal winner on the 200 yard dash. Bioshock is as with Zelda people are still holding up Ocarina of Time as the all time greatest Zelda title but I think Twilight was a much better game, why because it uses space age technology to make the experience less sucky. I will agree however that had Bioshock been as murderously difficult as Systemshock it would have gotten a much higher score than a 8.8. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2381 Joined: 6 Mar 2008 |
Why is that a bad thing? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3300 Joined: 1 Nov 2007   | Ok, a good game, not the greatest game ever. Can we at least all agree that is has the best introduction to any game ever made? |
BANNED  Posts: 11268 Joined: 3 Jan 2009 | The only bad thing about Bioshock are the game breaking Revive Chamber's. Other than that it's a fantastic game. User was banned for: Why do Many Girls take Pictures of Themselves?. (Permanent) |
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I'd say the extreme polish of this game really makes up for shallow gameplay...kinda opposite of what Fallout 3 does. Great solid game, terrible polish.