Cheeze_Pavilion:

Aries_Split:
Let me put it this way, System Shock 2 did everything bioshock did, but better.

System Shock 2 did an undersea period piece steampunk utopia based on a philosophy that is undone by both the inherent contradictions present in the system and its failure to deal with the inevitable creation of a population that rejects the guiding principle of that society, and descends into a horrific nightmarish funhouse mirror portrait of that utopia?

System Shock 2 is a discourse on communism versus fascism. The Many offer eternal bliss and peace of mind provided you are willing to sacrifice your body and material existence for the greater good. SHODAN is willing to improve you in the material world but ultimately thinks only about herself. The tension of the game is that you already know SHODAN isn't your friend and that her beliefs are bogus, but it's the only way to stop The Many.

So, in my opinion, it's more interesting of a story because whereas Bioshock makes Objectivism out to be a total waste and the villain is just a cynic, in System Shock 2 it looked at both sides and acknowledged their merits.

If you got the ps3 version then the hacking should be easier.

L.B. Jeffries:

So, in my opinion, it's more interesting of a story because whereas Bioshock makes Objectivism out to be a total waste and the villain is just a cynic, in System Shock 2 it looked at both sides and acknowledged their merits.

Actually, I think that's exactly what makes Bioshock so interesting: the villain is just a cynic. Part of what Bioshock was trying to say was that any system that can't survive the inclusion of people who are less than true believers--can't survive the presence of cynics--is doomed to failure.

Also, I don't think Bioshock was saying that Objectivism is a "total waste" at all: I mean, Rapture is a pretty amazing place before it all goes wrong. Rapture is presented as a utopia that falls from grace and turns into a nightmare, not as a dystopia. I think it says that Objectivism is *fatally flawed*, but, that's much different than saying something is a total waste.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Aries_Split:
Let me put it this way, System Shock 2 did everything bioshock did, but better.

System Shock 2 did an undersea period piece steampunk utopia based on a philosophy that is undone by both the inherent contradictions present in the system and its failure to deal with the inevitable creation of a population that rejects the guiding principle of that society, and descends into a horrific nightmarish funhouse mirror portrait of that utopia?

Replace undersea with space, and steampunk with cyberpunk, and yes, that pretty much sums up System shock 2.

geldonyetich:

Aries_Split:
Let me put it this way, System Shock 2 did everything bioshock did, but better.

I don't know about this, really. I played them both. While it's true that System Shock 2 had a more in-depth RPG mechanic and was more cerebrally satsifying, the BioShock story was much richer, the plasmids had a more active role than most Psi powers, and the combination of plasmids with weapons overall gave more freedom to the player.

Overall, I'd say BioShock was an improvement, even if some important things were streamlined out.

I see your points, and I think we'll agree that while Bioshock was a better shooter, System Shock 2's story was MUCH MUCH richer. I'm not sure where you get that.

I will say that combat in Bioshock was not wholly better than system shock 2, just more...streamlined.

Bioshock is a fantastic game and was easily one of the best games of 2007. While it's not quite up to par with System Shock 2, that still doesn't take away from it's achievements. My only real complains with the game were the lackluster RPG elements, the Vita-Chamber, and the crappy ending.

I'm hoping that Kevin Levine learned from his few mistakes in Bioshock and makes the sequel not only better than Bioshock, but also System Shock 2.

Aries_Split:
...Wait, you like it?

You never did play System Shock 2 did you?
Hey, I guess if you get enjoyment out of it, I shouldn't put you down.
Me? I'll stick with System Shock the way a starving baby sticks to a fat juicy brea-
Wait, what are we talking about?

I don't get your line of thinking here. Judge a game on it's on, not by a game that came before it unless it's a direct sequel. System shock was good, we get it. A lot of people haven't played System Shock (mostly because it's impossible to find a copy now), so why piss in someone's cornflakes because they like a game that was 'like it'?

Now, about the game.
Bioshock was great on its own, and becomes even better when turned onto hard and the vita chambers turned off: these are both default options that require no modding, available to satisfy the people that want hard gameplay.

51gunner:

Aries_Split:
...Wait, you like it?

You never did play System Shock 2 did you?
Hey, I guess if you get enjoyment out of it, I shouldn't put you down.
Me? I'll stick with System Shock the way a starving baby sticks to a fat juicy brea-
Wait, what are we talking about?

I don't get your line of thinking here. Judge a game on it's on, not by a game that came before it unless it's a direct sequel. System shock was good, we get it. A lot of people haven't played System Shock (mostly because it's impossible to find a copy now), so why piss in someone's cornflakes because they like a game that was 'like it'?

What? You've clearly taken a few wrong turns in your analysis of my supposed opinion.

I am judging the game on it's own. I'm saying the fact that I've essentially played a game that better executes what's going on is going to affect my opinion quite a bit. I never put him down for liking it, so I'm not sure where you got that from either.

Puppeteer Putin:
It is a fantastic game. I was a bit skeptical as well when I first picked it up, but it has a fantastic narrative, always want to know whats going to happen next, and the plot just becomes more surreal with every loading screen. It's like a well-written novel really.. just moar better.

Aries_Split:

You never did play System Shock 2 did you?

Hey, I guess if you get enjoyment out of it, I shouldn't put you down.

Me? I'll stick with System Shock the way a starving baby sticks to a fat juicy brea-

Wait, what are we talking about?

Does System Shock still hold up today? That was probably a blasphemous thing to say, but I was just curious... if so I might try to find it... not sure where though... apart from teh intarwebs.

Pong still holds up today.

i absolutely loved bioshock. but i doubt ill be playing it again very soon,

you can turn off the chambers in ps3 for those of you who whine about it
I tried out system shock shortly before buying bioshock and was unable to get into it, the infinite spawning enemies in an environment with very limited ammo really killed it for me.

So yes, I prefer Bioshock

My opinion of Bioshock quickly degraded from brilliant to good to average to drawn out and bland. Like Portal this game is one of those that you can only play through once before repetition and fatigue begin to drag you down, it isn't that the game is flawed it's more a case that it can't stand the test of time (and this is me saying it even though I haven't even had it for a year), play it once and then sell it to make sure you have only fond memories of it.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Actually, I think that's exactly what makes Bioshock so interesting: the villain is just a cynic. Part of what Bioshock was trying to say was that any system that can't survive the inclusion of people who are less than true believers--can't survive the presence of cynics--is doomed to failure.

Also, I don't think Bioshock was saying that Objectivism is a "total waste" at all: I mean, Rapture is a pretty amazing place before it all goes wrong. Rapture is presented as a utopia that falls from grace and turns into a nightmare, not as a dystopia. I think it says that Objectivism is *fatally flawed*, but, that's much different than saying something is a total waste.

Fatally flawed is a better way of putting it.

As much as I enjoyed Ryan's grand speeches and his belief that people would operate as rational self-interested beings once they had a right to the fruits of their labor, I thought it was Fontaine who made the stronger point:

"These intellectuals and philosophy types always seem to forget one thing. Someone always has to clean the toilets, even in paradise."

I can honestly say I loved both for what they presented. Bioshock was an enjoyable shooter with several gripping moments that were enhanced by the first person view point. The part most people used spoiler tags for earlier is a perfect example. Rather than using cut scenes to show the situation they kept it all in the first person point of view which made the violation of the PC much more 'real', at least for me.

System Shock 2 was just a perfectly made survival horror RPG. Others have been singing it's praises well enough that I don't feel the need.

Aries_Split:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Aries_Split:
Let me put it this way, System Shock 2 did everything bioshock did, but better.

System Shock 2 did an undersea period piece steampunk utopia based on a philosophy that is undone by both the inherent contradictions present in the system and its failure to deal with the inevitable creation of a population that rejects the guiding principle of that society, and descends into a horrific nightmarish funhouse mirror portrait of that utopia?

Replace undersea with space, and steampunk with cyberpunk, and yes, that pretty much sums up System shock 2.

So SS2 is lacking the period piece nature of BioShock--that means it didn't do something that BioShock did.

Also, while you can replace undersea with space, you really can't replace steampunk--at least the steampunk of _BioShock_--with cyberpunk. The steampunk of _BioShock_ is that strain of steampunk that is optimistic, that sees progress as a natural process upwards towards bigger and better things. You don't really find that strain of optimism anywhere in cyberpunk, do you? Something comparable to, say, the steampunk of the _Space: 1889_ world?

seamusotorain:

Aries_Split:
...Wait, you like it?

You never did play System Shock 2 did you?

Hey, I guess if you get enjoyment out of it, I shouldn't put you down.

Me? I'll stick with System Shock the way a starving baby sticks to a fat juicy brea-

Wait, what are we talking about?

For us little nOOblets, BioShock is OUR System Shock 2. Personally, I had never heard of System Shock 2 until the Zero Puctuation review of BioShock.

Class game, but no replay value. One of the few games I've ever given to a friend to share the magic!

I'd agree on the replay value; as good and memorable as the story is, the game itself is flawed. EG the whole dying system is just wrong in my opinion; as Yahtzee said in his review, dying becomes more of a momentary inconvenience what with the chambers. Sure you can turn em off, but then its too hard to play. More of a middle ground would be ideal i feel.

ansem1532:

Spartan Bannana:
Did this really deserve it's own thread?

Not really, but it is inevitable to stop them from occurring.

methinks you misused the word inevitable right there.

Spartan Bannana:

ansem1532:

Spartan Bannana:
Did this really deserve it's own thread?

Not really, but it is inevitable to stop them from occurring.

methinks you misused the word inevitable right there.

My bad, I'm not thinking quite right today.

"I think it is inevitable that these threads will be created and we cannot stop them."

Any better, or am I still coo-coo.

The game would have been slightly better with no vita-chambers. "Once you realize there's no reason to be careful, nothing really poses a threat anymore." Even so, BioShock was the only game to actually creep me out for the whole game, especially with Sander Cohen. He was a great character.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
progress as a natural process upwards towards bigger and better things. You don't really find that strain of optimism anywhere in cyberpunk,

...Have you actually played System Shock 2? The whole point was that you were giving up pieces of your humanity in order to fight the Many. Each cybernetic implant removes part of what makes you human in order to enhance what doesn't. While it does lack optimistic nature of Steampunk, it does make you look at the grim reality of progression.

I found Bioshock so addictive that me and a friend beat the whole game in one eleven hour day. It doesnt matter how many times you meet a Big Daddy, it is always an epic battle.

L.B. Jeffries:

As much as I enjoyed Ryan's grand speeches and his belief that people would operate as rational self-interested beings once they had a right to the fruits of their labor, I thought it was Fontaine who made the stronger point:

"These intellectuals and philosophy types always seem to forget one thing. Someone always has to clean the toilets, even in paradise."

That line I think is a direct counter-point to something said in _Atlas Shrugged_. There's a line in the book--I think I remember this--where one of the characters says he'd rather sweep up as a janitor on the factory floor of John Galt's company than run his own.

The thing about Objectivism is that it promises both greater freedom for everyone and greater prosperity. I think that line from BioShock was meant to show that while Objectivism may bring greater freedom, and create more wealth in the world, that doesn't mean greater prosperity for everyone.

That line from BioShock I think was meant to highlight that issue that Objectivism never deals with. It's almost like that line from Milton, about how it's better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.

I thought another great part of BioShock was that it has the most precious resource in the world being ADAM, something that was discovered by accident. One wonders how different the philosophy of Objectivism would have been if it had been developed right after, say, the gas crisis of the 1970s, if Rand had lived in a world where OPEC was seen to be as much of an enemy as the USSR.

No matter who you are, the moment you're compared to a magical hand that shoots bees, you're going to f#$king lose.

However, no matter how you look at it, the script writers of Bioshock had been f***ing geniuses.

I beat the entire game in three days, and died only once.

Beat that.

Also, I can defeat a big daddy- even elites- in three shots. Guess what I used.

Zeke109:
I beat the entire game in three days, and died only once.

Beat that.

On what difficulty?

LesIsMore:
No matter who you are, the moment you're compared to a magical hand that shoots bees, you're going to f#$king lose.

I love that ability ^^

Aries_Split:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
progress as a natural process upwards towards bigger and better things. You don't really find that strain of optimism anywhere in cyberpunk,

...Have you actually played System Shock 2? The whole point was that you were giving up pieces of your humanity in order to fight the Many. Each cybernetic implant removes part of what makes you human in order to enhance what doesn't. While it does lack optimistic nature of Steampunk, it does make you look at the grim reality of progression.

Well, there you go: maybe some people prefer a game that's got this optimistic nature when it comes to progress than one that makes you look at the "grim reality of progression." That's another thing BioShock is doing that SS2 didn't.

Remember, in BioShock, you give up your humanity by treading down a road of progress that never should have been opened in the first place: the whole reason you've got ADAM is because of people doing Nazi-esque forbidden research.

At no time is it implied that Rapture without ADAM was forcing people to lose their humanity--in fact, the whole point of BioShock is that we'll never get rid of the darker parts of our humanity that lead us to do the things that Suchong and Tenenbaum do, that we'll never be rid of people like Fontaine.

I haven't played SS2, but from what you say, it sounds like one could almost consider BioShock to be SystemShock stood on it's head: the latter is about how technology leads us to lose our humanity, while the former is about how no matter how much technology we have--even if we had enough to build a city on an undersea hill--we'll never get rid of the worst parts of our human nature.

Maybe the problem with playing SS2 before BioShock is that you went into BioShock looking for a story about the "grim reality of progression" and how it takes away our humanity, and you missed the story about the 'grim reality of our humanity' and how "progress" in technology won't ever get rid of that dark side of ourselves.

ansem1532:

Zeke109:
I beat the entire game in three days, and died only once.

Beat that.

On what difficulty?

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gdehgfdsafdsfdfdffsdldgkljg;sdfkdf;kf;lsdfk;flkd
dfdffffssdlskfsfdfls'fl'fl;f[weprowetiigjrogjrgj
frfwcclsyekjfsdkofjiojweonmvdkljopskwpoepeoiwpoi

You can find out...in this word search!

Zeke109:

ansem1532:

Zeke109:
I beat the entire game in three days, and died only once.

Beat that.

On what difficulty?

qwfdfgrfefdfgfdkjoaigjroptvikttireriobtopwerbjwj
gdehgfdsafdsfdfdffsdldgkljg;sdfkdf;kf;lsdfk;flkd
dfdffffssdlskfsfdfls'fl'fl;f[weprowetiigjrogjrgj
frfwcclsyekjfsdkofjiojweonmvdkljopskwpoepeoiwpoi

You can find out...in this word search!

I..can't..decrypt..that..o.o

Head tension building, and there goes my sanity ^^

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Aries_Split:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
progress as a natural process upwards towards bigger and better things. You don't really find that strain of optimism anywhere in cyberpunk,

...Have you actually played System Shock 2? The whole point was that you were giving up pieces of your humanity in order to fight the Many. Each cybernetic implant removes part of what makes you human in order to enhance what doesn't. While it does lack optimistic nature of Steampunk, it does make you look at the grim reality of progression.

Well, there you go: maybe some people prefer a game that's got this optimistic nature when it comes to progress than one that makes you look at the "grim reality of progression." That's another thing BioShock is doing that SS2 didn't.

Remember, in BioShock, you give up your humanity by treading down a road of progress that never should have been opened in the first place: the whole reason you've got ADAM is because of people doing Nazi-esque forbidden research.

At no time is it implied that Rapture without ADAM was forcing people to lose their humanity--in fact, the whole point of BioShock is that we'll never get rid of the darker parts of our humanity that lead us to do the things that Suchong and Tenenbaum do, that we'll never be rid of people like Fontaine.

I haven't played SS2, but from what you say, it sounds like one could almost consider BioShock to be SystemShock stood on it's head: the latter is about how technology leads us to lose our humanity, while the former is about how no matter how much technology we have--even if we had enough to build a city on an undersea hill--we'll never get rid of the worst parts of our human nature.

Maybe the problem with playing SS2 before BioShock is that you went into BioShock looking for a story about the "grim reality of progression" and how it takes away our humanity, and you missed the story about the 'grim reality of our humanity' and how "progress" in technology won't ever get rid of that dark side of ourselves.

I can see that and I understand the point your trying to make now.

Thanks for being Civil about this.

In a feat of shopping magic I did buy Bioshock (used but in mint condition) alongside Overlord and Viking, for $60 not including tax (thats $20 each for those of you who want to bask in my thrifty magnificence). So far so good. The hubris and the selfishness of the denizens of Rapture amuse me. Wonder whats up with the Tatoo's though...

Eh. I liked System Shock 2 just fine. It was a truly great and innovative game. But that takes nothing away from Bio Shock.

Bio Shock, for me, truly approaches Art in terms of video games today. Yes, System Shock took the innovations further in gameplay, but for me the story of Bio Shock was closer to what I consider Art.

For one, the entire video game takes on a new meaning when viewed through the lens of Ayn Rand. The game is suddenly not just a game, but socio-political commentary. System Shock 2, with all of its greatness did not have that. SS2 had a wonderful story about the loss of humanity and the darkness of technology, but did not have the greater political angle.

Also, there is the awesome scene with Andrew Ryan which actually operates on four different levels. It's pretty amazing when a novel just works on two or more levels, let alone four.