I have never played a mmorpg that was more fun in the end game than it was in getting to that end game. In truth, I usually don't even bother trying to get to the end game; I just make new characters over and over until I unsubscribe.

Here's the question I'd like to pose: What's your idea of good endgame content? If the game makes you invincible, whats the point of playing? If the game has you grinding for the same equipment as everyone else, whats the point of playing? If you joined the game for PvE and endgame content is based around high-level PvP, why would you want to keep playing?

This isn't a question of why people bother to play mmorpgs when they've reached max level. If for no other reason people will continue to play due to real life friends or online ones that play the game. What I want to know is what people consider good endgame content.

If a MMO can keep me occupied at max level, then I consider that good content. Main reason why I have quit MMO's is because the lack of high level content.

Alas poor City of Heroes, I'd probably still be playing it if its end game content existed in anything other than, "replay lower level content" form.

My idea of an awesome end-game concept would be one in which end-game players have a major impact on the game world via dynamic content. E.G. The rise and fall of major cities depend on players' actions during end game.

geldonyetich:
Alas poor City of Heroes, I'd probably still be playing it if its end game content existed in anything other than, "replay lower level content" form.

My idea of an awesome end-game concept would be one in which end-game players have a major impact on the game world via dynamic content. E.G. The rise and fall of major cities depend on players' actions during end game.

Interestingly enough, I believe there was something along these lines with WoW when it first began with its final dungeon, Ahn'Qiraj.

In any case, for me the endgame should involve a successful conclusion to a story. Just like any other game with a plot, if it has a story it needs to wrap it up in some way. If it doesn't have a story, I'm probably not playing it.

I don't know, Guild Wars kept me relatively interested with end game content, well, more specifically, Guild Wars: Nightfall, as the entire Domain of Anguish area is only accessible after game completion, and it took a relative amount of skill, patience, and above all else, a decent team to get through it all.

Plus going through there unlocked some of the most sought-after weapons in the game, but aside from that, no MMO has given me enough end game content to make me give a shit.

coldfrog:

Interestingly enough, I believe there was something along these lines with WoW when it first began with its final dungeon, Ahn'Qiraj.

In any case, for me the endgame should involve a successful conclusion to a story. Just like any other game with a plot, if it has a story it needs to wrap it up in some way. If it doesn't have a story, I'm probably not playing it.

The opening to the gates of Ahn'Qiraj involved the entire of the realm. People from every level were racing to supply the war efforts through the creation of various items.
Then there was the war when the game opened itself, high end characters fought in a huge onslaught.
That was so much fun :)
There was something similar when the Dark Portal was opened too for TBC expansion for WoW.

There can't be a story wrap up really for an MMO since they're generally endless and infinate games.

A great event to see would be where it'd effect the main cities. Say perhaps fighting for control over specific areas, i mean i know this has been sorta done. But i mean like permanent control or at least control for say six months.
Or if you had to defend the city from monster invasion. What would happen if you didn't defend it? You'd have an altered city, destroyed and monster ridden etc.

One thing that MMO devs should make more of is quests. Quests give you an objective, and a reason to continue playing. Also, the creation of new, difficult-to-kill monsters add another level of challenge to an MMO.

Endgame content can never be good. If they make it hard, then people complain about it being only for hardcore players. If it's easier, then people complain it's catering to casuals. If it's short, then the designers are lazy and there's too little content. But if it's any longer, then it must be too grindy.

As for the Golden Grail of PvP engame, I personally find it gets boring. Fast.

noone has mentioned runescape? thats such a horrible game im glad my credit card expired because i hardly played anymore..and no high lvl content whatsoever...no ending to the game either

Jandau:
Endgame content can never be good.

However you measure "good", it can be done. Like in Face of Mankind - the game consisted from only "End game". You roleplayed, took your share in the market, you were writing quests for other players to fulfill. Lore, Love and Loot. LLL keeps the game intact.

I hate leveling. I just want to get to the end and just relax and have some fun without worrying about my other friends doing stuff I can't.

[quote="Sion_Barzahd" post="9.82966.1144995"]The opening to the gates of Ahn'Qiraj involved the entire of the realm. People from every level were racing to supply the war efforts through the creation of various items.
Then there was the war when the game opened itself, high end characters fought in a huge onslaught.
That was so much fun :)
There was something similar when the Dark Portal was opened too for TBC expansion for WoW.

There can't be a story wrap up really for an MMO since they're generally endless and infinate games. [quote]

Well, my impression is that (in the current incarnation for instance) there is a final boss (Arthas) and, while there are still things to do, you have finished a main storyline by defeating him. So we defeat Arthas, yes, we can continue to do stuff around the world (honestly, I probably won't do too much more after that) but there is a goal, even if you can totally ignore it for a million other things in the game.

Good end-game content should either allow characters to continue to evolve or allow them to put there mark in the world. One idea I had was that high end players can found towns then have to defend said towns. Alot like starwars online... only functional.

Grenbyron:
Good end-game content should either allow characters to continue to evolve or allow them to put there mark in the world. One idea I had was that high end players can found towns then have to defend said towns. Alot like starwars online... only functional.

If you'd be able to get along with spaceships, Eve Online would be the choice :) There is no real defined end game, as it's up to you how you define your end game. You can be a trader, just focused on money, doing pvp (to be honest, nearly everything in eve is pvp, as it's a player driven market also), producing (also in combination with trader, as you have to calculate the profit and marge etc) and alot more.

Jandau:
Endgame content can never be good. If they make it hard, then people complain about it being only for hardcore players. If it's easier, then people complain it's catering to casuals. If it's short, then the designers are lazy and there's too little content. But if it's any longer, then it must be too grindy.

As for the Golden Grail of PvP engame, I personally find it gets boring. Fast.

But that's just because MMO designers make things in those terms. MMO quests ARE grindy, all of them, so making more isn't going to help. Making less just makes less content as well.

This is the main reason I tend to quit any MMO I try pretty quickly. It's just the same thing over and over. The only MMO that has kept me interested has been Puzzle pirates, because there was always more to do, you could always go higher.

End-game in that game is siegeing and taking over islands, and then governing them. Not ideal, but it's something to do for a long time, and it's a valid goal.

Personally, I don't see how end-game of an MMO can be made really appealing, for a long while, if MMOs keep their current shape.

What I'd do is remove respawning, first off (or at the very least add permanent death, perhaps under certain conditions). Then I'd put players in charge of different nations, or factions.

Each faction would have to be balanced in such a way that they each have something that the others need, so that diplomacy, or war is needed in some way, between the factions. That way we have longevity. PvE works only for a short time, because it's based on the amount of work the developers are able to put in there.

I'd probably remove a level cap as well, and instead put a damper on the amount of power an individual player can attain.

The thing is, for a game to really be interesting you have to be able to discover new things. In most MMOs people know exactly what the most powerful items are, and how to get there, and how to become the most powerful of each class. If we have that we lose the whole exploration aspect of a game, since static content made by developers also has a realistic limit, we can't base the game on that either, if we want players to keep playing. There we lose another nice pillar. Left we have grinding/advancement and pvp, and in an rpg, those two don't really hold infinite charm.

In the same way as that goes for a regular game, it goes for an mmo. A game is only at it's best as long as you can discover new things, and be challenged in new ways. The late game in an mmo has to have so much more to do than a regular game, because we want the player to keep playing, for far longer than in a regular game. We can't just add more items, more quests, and more experience, we need to add more exploration, more to discover. More and different gameplay. And even more than that, we have to make it dynamic and if possible, infinite (by which I mean "not bound by what we've created".)

We'd have to create a world that makes sense if it's in part locked up. Perhaps explain it by using something like in Spellforce. Small islands, with portals connecting them. To get to a another world, you'd have to get through the gate, guarded by enemies. The next world is randomly generated, from a specified terrain type and filled with randomly generated enemies, a few levels higher than the players that first broke through. This would keep on indefinitely, allowing players to form factions, and take over forts, and castles, to take out tolls for passing through their portals, and there'd always be more exploring to do for high-level players, the world wouldn't end. The portals can of course be exchanged for anything. Valleys overlooked by castles, mountain passes, harbours, space stations, whatever fits the setting.

We would of course have a problem with overpopulation. It'd be impossible to find your way to where you wanted to go. We'd have to figure out a way to limit, or remove unnecessary worlds from the equation. Perhaps have older worlds randomly taken over by enemies.

We also should have a random mission generator that creates the sort of quests usualy associated with MMOs, and call them chores or something. Keeping down the population count of enemy being, gathering of materials and such. And then we add a few real quests, as often as we can, with a dedicated team.

Since players are in charge of towns and such, and killable, we include them in our quests. You don't get a mission to kill a random npc, you get a mission to assasinate the player that has taken over town. You can try to bribe or threaten that players guild members, or sneak inside.

Eh, I'm rambling. Perhaps one day I'll be able to make an MMO though, hopefully I can think of something.

I realize this is sorta asking for the impossible, but idealy, the best end game scenario would be one that doesnt end. it continues adding challenges and events as the players become more powerful. I mean, isnt that the whole point of WOW adding expansions?

Wow, a lot of what you said is going to be done with gw2, which is really going to have great end game content and I read that they might also be taking away the level cap in gw2.

I hate to say it but Wrath of the Lich King is fun...

In my experience there's two ways to play most MMO's

Social: Fun but you become the go to guy if shit hits the fan in your guild/whatever because you're the one that knows everyone.

Endgame: More fun(imo) and you learn skills that can be applied to real life as well.

I think it would be cool if max level players could erect fortresses and enlist lower level characters as "minions" to lead into battle...that would reek of badassery!