I like to critic as much as the next guy, but this ones been bugging me, we allways say that relationships feel forced or unnatural, but what do we base it on? I mean everyone falls in love differently.

Tell me whats your criteria for judging romance in games? Personal experience? Observation? I'm curious as to how we base it.

(For the Record for me it's personal experience and the 3 years of English Literature and Media studies)

Banjou Haran, The James Bond Mecha Pilot

The characters involved should have in game chemistry, at least a brief amount of flirting/sexual tension, then they can be 'in love'.

Worst case I can think of: Fable 2's hilariously simple take on romance. Everyone in every town wanted me to fuck them blind, doubly so if I gave them cheap gold rings.

Best case I can think of...?...nope. Er. Actually Dom in Gear 2 is pretty good. (I don't mean Dom and Marcus, that's Gears 1). Less of an emerging romance but they did make it really seem like Dom really loved her.

The problem is, it's always going to feel a bit forced, especially when you have three or four options. It's just highly unlikely for that many people to coincidentally fall in love with you AND ONLY YOU, and they just -happen- to be following you.
I judge it logically, or, at least as logically as love gets. I've been in love exactly three times, and it was all one-sided, so I can't judge romance very well, but I know what seems right. *Shrugs*
And that's also the problem with people complaining about no gay options: You could be gay, but stastically, there are less gays than straight people. So it's even MORE unlikely that your only male follower, (for example,) happens to be gay.

EDIT TO SAVE FACE: If this makes no sense/sounds stupid it is because I am mentally and physically exhausted and I am now going to bed. Hopefully.
ALL THE COOL KIDS HAVE INSOMNIA

I have never felt in any way romantically connected with a character in a game, but then again i am a soulless excuse of humanity. But in its defense i have in recent years come to grow fond of characters to the point that i am disappointed when shit happens to them. Best example of this is that big Turtle on steroids and Tabasco sauce form Mass Effect. cant remember the fuckers name but i do remember sympathizing with him and doing everything in my power to satisfy his revenge like tenancies. As for love, well i think that's one of the few things ill leave to real life, even though my experiences of love don't go past the interaction between me and a certain piece of shaped latex i keep in a box under my bed.

MaxTheReaper:
The problem is, it's always going to feel a bit forced, especially when you have three or four options. It's just highly unlikely for that many people to coincidentally fall in love with you AND ONLY YOU, and they just -happen- to be following you.

That pretty much. I think it genuinely has to add consequence to the game. If it's a dumbfounded subplot that's there "for funsies", it will be dumped faster than a prostitute.

I reaffirm, I'm not asking if you like them, I'm asking what your criteria for judging a romance. Since I hear the words 'Fake' or 'Forced' being thrown around.

Onmi:
I reaffirm, I'm not asking if you like them, I'm asking what your criteria for judging a romance. Since I hear the words 'Fake' or 'Forced' being thrown around.

I wish I could put this off, but I can't sleep, so...
Like I said, it has to make sense to me. It does seem, yes, FORCED, if -all- of the girls are madly in love with you and only you, or, in the case of a gay option, the guy just happens to be gay and in love with you too.
Don't get me wrong. I like romance in games. It adds depth to the characters.

Puppeteer Putin:

MaxTheReaper:
The problem is, it's always going to feel a bit forced, especially when you have three or four options. It's just highly unlikely for that many people to coincidentally fall in love with you AND ONLY YOU, and they just -happen- to be following you.

That pretty much. I think it genuinely has to add consequence to the game. If it's a dumbfounded subplot that's there "for funsies", it will be dumped faster than a prostitute.

Listen, I asked you not to tell anyone about that prostitute business.
But since we're friends, I'll let you come into my van with me and discuss the consequences of your actions.
Don't mind the barrel, there, it tends to slosh around a bit when full.

I think Hollywood is a great place to look at for 'fake' romance, as unless the romance underpins the entire plot (and even then, sometimes) there just isn't the time to really fully develop the romance on the screen. Having to squeeze so much out of so little, it's difficult to make a romance seem genuine without any real basis.

Looking to games, a good example would be Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time. The romance that builds between the Prince and Farah over the course of the game, the way the characters banter and endure their journey together really makes the romance feel genuine. Contrast this with, say, Max Payne's romance with Mona Sax, somewhat similar to Speed's romance (Keanu Reeves against Sandra Bullock), both evolving from seemingly little to no romantic pretext and just suddenly blossoming at the end out of nowhere.

I think the theme I've established is for there to be a romance, there needs to be development. Sure, good actors can still make a relationship seem deep, genuine, and established previous to when we met their characters, but there has to be a journey of sorts for a developing romance to not feel fake.

If two characters are devoid of any sort of chemistry (or personality for that matter) and appear to be hooking up simply because love interests "make for the dramas", then its fake and annoyingly so. Also, I think plot has something to do with it too. If the game's story takes place over a six hour period and they're fighting for their lives the entire time, romance really seems shoehorned in.

I think the best sort of romances are the ones that are more subtle. If romance is going to be a major part of the plot, it becomes insulting if we as gamers are beaten over the heads with it. To see it build up slowly just feels more real to me. I know bringing up Half-Life 2 on this board is more than a little expected, but I do feel as though the interaction between you (as Gordon Freeman) and Alyx Vance is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. You don't need a big kiss or sex scene to show romance. It can be as small as the way a character looks at you when you glance over at them, or the inflection in what they say.

One thing I note is that it's hard to have real "romance" in non linear titles because initiating the romances always feels like, I dunno, "scoring" for lack of a better word. Then there are titles like Persona 3 or 4 where pretty much every female character will fall head over heals in love with the hero as long as you talk to them.

There are some good examples though, The Prince and Farah in Sands of Time were excellent. I was always partial to Fei and Elly in the original Xenogears, a great example of a romance that grows and solidifies BEFORE the end of the game.

JingleheimerShmidt:
I think the best sort of romances are the ones that are more subtle. If romance is going to be a major part of the plot, it becomes insulting if we as gamers are beaten over the heads with it. To see it build up slowly just feels more real to me. I know bringing up Half-Life 2 on this board is more than a little expected, but I do feel as though the interaction between you (as Gordon Freeman) and Alyx Vance is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. You don't need a big kiss or sex scene to show romance. It can be as small as the way a character looks at you when you glance over at them, or the inflection in what they say.

Well said.
Too often romance is seen, or portrayed, as synonymous with sex and sexuality. Totally way off. Sex can certainly be romantic, but it isn't the epitome of it.

In my gaming travels, I've found the romance in Bioware games, Baldur's Gate 2 is the one that comes to mind, to be the most 'real'. Different romances based on how you interact with the world and your party members. And you don't even have to be romantic back! It isn't forced. And it happens gradually, so you aren't suddenly like 'Oh, I'm married now.' (I'm looking at YOU Fable 1 and 2!).

Baby Tea:

JingleheimerShmidt:
I think the best sort of romances are the ones that are more subtle. If romance is going to be a major part of the plot, it becomes insulting if we as gamers are beaten over the heads with it. To see it build up slowly just feels more real to me. I know bringing up Half-Life 2 on this board is more than a little expected, but I do feel as though the interaction between you (as Gordon Freeman) and Alyx Vance is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. You don't need a big kiss or sex scene to show romance. It can be as small as the way a character looks at you when you glance over at them, or the inflection in what they say.

Well said.
Too often romance is seen, or portrayed, as synonymous with sex and sexuality. Totally way off. Sex can certainly be romantic, but it isn't the epitome of it.

In my gaming travels, I've found the romance in Bioware games, Baldur's Gate 2 is the one that comes to mind, to be the most 'real'. Different romances based on how you interact with the world and your party members. And you don't even have to be romantic back! It isn't forced. And it happens gradually, so you aren't suddenly like 'Oh, I'm married now.' (I'm looking at YOU Fable 1 and 2!).

Except that falls under the category of "Every Woman in the game loves the Hero" problem, in one of my playthroughs I was just nice to all of them, and then they pretty much all fell for me, I even had Jaheira and Aerie fighting over me at one point...

Actually, that was suprising and awesome, what the hell am I talking about.

MaxTheReaper:
The problem is, it's always going to feel a bit forced, especially when you have three or four options. It's just highly unlikely for that many people to coincidentally fall in love with you AND ONLY YOU, and they just -happen- to be following you.

Not to be redundant (someone else did this) but THIS.

Also, that pic = awesome. Never heard of that series before.

darrinwright:

MaxTheReaper:
The problem is, it's always going to feel a bit forced, especially when you have three or four options. It's just highly unlikely for that many people to coincidentally fall in love with you AND ONLY YOU, and they just -happen- to be following you.

Not to be redundant (someone else did this) but THIS.

Also, that pic = awesome. Never heard of that series before.

an old 70s-80s Mecha Show Daitarn 3, Banjou Haran is the James Bond of Mecha pilots, including the girls.

The big problem with getting romance in games is its complexity. romance is fucking way to complex in real life, what chance do you think there is for game developers (well devoid of romance experience) to get it right in a game?

EDIT: I sound like a pretension cock in this post!

PedroSteckecilo:
Except that falls under the category of "Every Woman in the game loves the Hero" problem, in one of my playthroughs I was just nice to all of them, and then they pretty much all fell for me, I even had Jaheira and Aerie fighting over me at one point...

Actually, that was suprising and awesome, what the hell am I talking about.

That is awesome, eh?
But not everyone woman loves you! Only Aerie, Jaheira, and Viconia. All the others will 'just be friends'. I love those games so much.

Dunhill808:
The big problem with getting romance in games is its complexity. romance is fucking way to complex in real life, what chance do you think there is for game developers (well devoid of romance experience) to get it right in a game?

I actually found the "sex scene" with Liara in Mass Effect to be fairly romantic, it was well done, the broad lead up was just kinda lame, I suppose I just never really felt romantic chemistry between Shepard and any of the characters.

I dunno, I really dislike the "japanese" approach to Romance you see in so many games from that strange little nation. The whole endless cock blockage and misunderstandings, with tons of wierd angst and social pressure. It shows up in so many damn things. Basically I'm sick of seeing all these romances that never come to anything in game and don't really seem realistic because of it.

Hence why I like the Fey and Ellie one, they are solidly "in love" about 1/2 way through the game rather than dodging the question until the end of the game.

I suppose the romance between Squall and Rinoa in FFVIII also isn't so bad, since you get relationship "pay off" by the third disc.

That pretty much. I think it genuinely has to add consequence to the game. If it's a dumbfounded subplot that's there "for funsies", it will be dumped faster than a prostitute.

Raiden and Rose for example...

rossatdi:
Worst case I can think of: Fable 2's hilariously simple take on romance. Everyone in every town wanted me to fuck them blind, doubly so if I gave them cheap gold rings.

Fable and Fable 2 aren't really a good example of "Romance" though. They're more akin to a rock star with a bus full of groupies. Which was largely the effect they were aiming for, your hero is essentially the biggest star on the planet, and literally can have anyone they want.

PedroSteckecilo:

I actually found the "sex scene" with Liara in Mass Effect to be fairly romantic, it was well done, the broad lead up was just kinda lame, I suppose I just never really felt romantic chemistry between Shepard and any of the characters.

Here's the question thought, did YOU feel romantically attached to Liara. I am aware that a response to this might be a little.....weird.

IntoxicatedKnight:

That pretty much. I think it genuinely has to add consequence to the game. If it's a dumbfounded subplot that's there "for funsies", it will be dumped faster than a prostitute.

Raiden and Rose for example...

Were already a couple, hence invalid, Snake and Meryl were... allright not the best a big fakeish but still good.

As I said I got mostly from personal experience, and I had a 'Love-At-First-Sight' moment, So it doesn't seem THAT unnatural to me when it appears in games.

Although I agree that the main characters Charisma attracting every girl is best left to the H-games.

Dunhill808:

PedroSteckecilo:

I actually found the "sex scene" with Liara in Mass Effect to be fairly romantic, it was well done, the broad lead up was just kinda lame, I suppose I just never really felt romantic chemistry between Shepard and any of the characters.

Here's the question thought, did YOU feel romantically attached to Liara. I am aware that a response to this might be a little.....weird.

I viewed Shepard as more of a "Character" I was directing and "playing" rather than an extension of myself (like my character in Fallout 3, for example). So while I found Liara to be the more desireable and likeable female romance, I didn't feel that the writers and game designers gave it enough time to feel like a real romance. It all struck me as very rushed, feelings and backstories are spewed within a short timespan and all of a sudden the two characters literally seem to trip into the sack. It just struck me as unrealistic.

PedroSteckecilo:

Dunhill808:

PedroSteckecilo:

I actually found the "sex scene" with Liara in Mass Effect to be fairly romantic, it was well done, the broad lead up was just kinda lame, I suppose I just never really felt romantic chemistry between Shepard and any of the characters.

Here's the question thought, did YOU feel romantically attached to Liara. I am aware that a response to this might be a little.....weird.

I viewed Shepard as more of a "Character" I was directing and "playing" rather than an extension of myself (like my character in Fallout 3, for example). So while I found Liara to be the more desireable and likeable female romance, I didn't feel that the writers and game designers gave it enough time to feel like a real romance. It all struck me as very rushed, feelings and backstories are spewed within a short timespan and all of a sudden the two characters literally seem to trip into the sack. It just struck me as unrealistic.

I'll agree with you on this, but only in part. Yes it is unrealistic that such a "firm" romantic relationship developed between the characters in such a short time. BUT from my experience there is something called 'battle-fat'(boner joke). this is the arousal or heightened sexual awareness, stimulated through live combat. it could be that Shepard and Liara were just releasing the tension build up during battle.......although highly unlikely, I'm just putting a theory out there.

I think a lot of the reasons that the romances seem "forced" is because they tend to be obvious from the moment you meet the characters.

Romance is a stage in a relationship that develops over time. It isn't instant like lust or disdain, it takes a while.

Decent example of romance in a game is the chick from Half Life 2. She isn't all over the main character from the get-go, and she even seems reluctant/embarrassed when her father suggest that she and Gordon get together.

Then there are examples where there are couples together, yet no romance/attraction exists at all; Mario and Peach.

If it feels organic then it's fine. Max Payne is an example of an organic relationship, the friendship system in Persona 3 does a good job of making all of the relationships seem organic. Slow progression really helps, if you have to do things that will logically engender a relationship the emotional attachment is less likely to feel forced.

I've notice that in every Final Fantasy game the relations between the main male and female characters are pretty much like this.
Man: "I have known you my whole life and I really like you but I'm not going to say that..."
Woman:" I love him so much but I'm too embarrassed to really do anything and I can't just tell him the truth, oh no that would be terrible!"
The only FF game that broke this is FFX and FFX-2.

It's because the girl is saved by the hero. Or they fall in love because super-writer said so.

Don't get me wrong, both of the times I was in love, it was love at first sight. There's nothing WRONG with that.
But love at first sight for seven or eight different people is implausible.
...I feel like a gerbil in a wheel, treading the exact same ground.
NOTHING NEW HERE PEOPLE MOVE ALONG SORRY TO DISTURB YOU.

mass effect was a good example of good relationing. screw up the dialoguetrees and you wont get any. Most other games are just terrible....

MaxTheReaper:
Don't get me wrong, both of the times I was in love, it was love at first sight. There's nothing WRONG with that.
But love at first sight for seven or eight different people is implausible.
...I feel like a gerbil in a wheel, treading the exact same ground.
NOTHING NEW HERE PEOPLE MOVE ALONG SORRY TO DISTURB YOU.

I agree actually, In Persona you do have to take the girls out on dates, get to know them, if you start Two-Timing they get pissed off and seriously stunt your Persona Growth.

I had Love at First sight, but thats just me, and it was one girl.

Only H-Games get away with multiple girls loving you. Or a game like Sakura Taisen.

Or if your name is Banjou Haran (Point to image in the first post) BUT ONLY THEN!

Do a Literature course or a Media Studies course, and you WILL know how to analyze narratives.

Also god damn game designers making a 'Choice' when there isn't one.

Let me explain, anybody with FFVII, VIII, or X Knows you can flirt with the three girls on your team. Now this is fine, you can only flirt at certain intervals and with only one girl.

So why is it that at a certain point, no matter WHO your flirting with they Rail-Road the romance. This was fine with Tidus and Yuna who had enough emotional bonding through out there journey for a relationship to form (And even then it hadn't fully formed) but with Squall who is almost literally an asshat for the majority of the game, if I'm flirting with Quistis that means I want Quistis!

Riviera The Promised Land did it good, which ever girl you have the highest romance with is declared as your love interest, Then the Villain Kills/Removes her from your party. (On my first playthrough I invested everything into my love interest, Boss Battle was a bitch)

Multiple Endings (Including one where your Familiar drinks a potion and transforms into a Cat Girl, since the game was appealing to every other fetish)

Or do what they did with Locke in FF6, he flirts with both Celice and Terra, but never actually picks one (Then again 6 is groundbreaking because the protagonist is pretty much who you choose to view the game through)

Ugh, the romance in Mass Effect was painful. For starters, Liara was the single most annoying character in the game - why does my character have to like the one girl who over-pronounces all her words like a pretentious twat?

The relationship between Shephard and Ashley, on the other hand, seemed very believeable... and I have just then found out that that was an alternative romantic subplot to Liara. God damn. I made the wrong conversation choice somewhere.

Half-Life 2 and the episodes are taking a good approach: they build a relationship between Gordon and Alyx. Obviously Gordon is a blank slate, but Alyx seems to be growing to like and trust Gordon gradually as the games go on. You know, like a real relationship. That's a refreshing change from the fast-track functional approach that dominates most games.

But really what's important is not so much the structure of the relationship - whether it's a Fable-style groupie session or a GTAIV-style goal-oriented "mission" or a Half Life-style slow burn or whatever - but how well it's handled. Design is important but execution is king.