The X1 has lost Microsoft 400 million

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KazeAizen:

Also to be fair the market wasn't quite as big back then as it is now so while still major the impact wasn't quite what it would be like if one of them went belly up now. Personally Nintendo is my favorite company because while I acknowledge they screw up the good far out weighs the bad. I mean the bad is still pretty bad. Weren't they notorious for region locking stuff, which I never import but I understand the issue, also the LP and Youtube thing but compared to say shipping incomplete games, having subscription fees out the wazoo, and just general money extortionist tactics they are not as bad as most.

Well yeah, some of the competition has done far worse. My main point though was the people who have legitimate criticism with Nintendo, being told that they are wrong because Nintendo has never done anything wrong. Not to mention I hate it when people say that other comapnies haven't made fun games, or that they make complete crap. Connecting this back to when I was a kid, I enjoyed games like Ape Escape, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Klonoa, and many more. But according to some, apparently I had a terrible or had no childhood at all because I didn't play Ocarina of Time or Mario 64 as a kid. Hell, even goes back into the 4th gen days as I got told those sort of things all the time because I had a Genesis/Megadrive and no Super Nintendo. Not to mention, not everything the competition has done has been outright bad, and in fact some things became springboards and standards for others. While subscription based stuff sucks, Microsoft still popularized online play for consoles, which is impressive. Sony popularized CD usage which is an industry standard for consoles nowadays as well. Outright ignoring certain things the competition does can hinder you greatly, as what happened with the constant delays of many Wii U games because Nintendo hadn't really practiced with HD design, despite it becoming
an industry standard and obviously needing to be utilized (I'm referring to 720p, as many TVs these days don't even have composite input to support consoles anymore).

To summarize, the only people who should be called NDF are the ones who honestly believe Nintendo has never done anything wrong at all, despite them clearly doing some bad things, and them defending the bad things. Just because it's not as bad, doesn't excuse it. Best example of it is how many people defend the act of region locking by basically saying things like "barely anyone imports." Now for the home consoles, I can understand it a bit because Nintendo's home consoles have never been region free. But for handhelds, it's completely stupid as every single Nintendo handheld, minus the DSi, have been region free. Suddenly now, the 3DS is region locked and there are many games that will never be localized outside of Japan that you'd have to buy an entire new 3DS for. As someone who's studying abroad in Japan next year, the fact that I'm possibly gonna have to buy a whole new 3DS is not the best thing ever.

Heck they win to me alone for CONSISTENTLY putting out actual finished games and rarely having DLC which when they do it actually is legit. Though the Hyrule Warriors DLC is I think the first time I've seen the bad side of the DLC market rear its ugly head on a first party Nintendo title which considering how long it took for that to happen that's damn impressive. Would be more impressive if its just a one off thing until we get a Super Princess Peach U. expansion for Mario U. Which I would actually buy that.

Honestly there worst DLC I still think is the one for New Super Mario Bros 2, as it's overly expensive for what is. Hyrule Warriors I'm more pissed at for Nintendo going along with Tecmo Koei on the "exclusive at x retailer" DLC. I've always hated that, as it just restricts more content overall.

Zachary Amaranth:

Ultratwinkie:

Well they are said to have 10 billion in assets, with an estimated 4.7 billion in the bank.

Radically different than what's been previously estimated, but okay.

Consoles cost billions to make. Microsoft said they invested at least 1 billion into the xbone itself with another billion for exclusives. tech ain't cheap, especially if you do something like the kinect or a tablet.

Thankfully, Nintendo isn't Microsoft. Also, you really think that the cost to design wasn't, you know, already paid?

2 billion for a basic package to be designed and planned, not counting the maintenance of support once it releases. Not counting the manufacture cost.

Yes, and this one guy made a 30,000 dollar PC build, PCs must cost tens of thousands to build. I mean, surely that's how trends work.

...I'm sure that's different, somehow. Because ponies.

For a company with no actual outside income

You mean, aside from the TV shows and the plushies and all that, right?

1. Custom is not the same as standard. PCs are standard and everything is made to be in a uniform shape. What consoles need is custom parts designed for it specifically. And that's where it gets expensive regardless of how cheap or weak it is on PC. You have to design new factories for the parts you want to make.

2. A TV show and plushies don't bring in billions. Not like Microsoft or Sony do.

3. Cost of design must be paid nearest to the launch date as possible. You cannot pay for future manufacturing technology, which is why the ps3 was 600$ at launch and not 100$.

So now with 4.7 billion in the bank, they have 1 last console in them at best. The problem here is moore's law and tech will only get more and more expensive until we use graphene. We can't expect superman to swoop in and save everyone yet.

Neronium:

Well yeah, some of the competition has done far worse. My main point though was the people who have legitimate criticism with Nintendo, being told that they are wrong because Nintendo has never done anything wrong. Not to mention I hate it when people say that other comapnies haven't made fun games, or that they make complete crap. Connecting this back to when I was a kid, I enjoyed games like Ape Escape, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Klonoa, and many more. But according to some, apparently I had a terrible or had no childhood at all because I didn't play Ocarina of Time or Mario 64 as a kid. Hell, even goes back into the 4th gen days as I got told those sort of things all the time because I had a Genesis/Megadrive and no Super Nintendo. Not to mention, not everything the competition has done has been outright bad, and in fact some things became springboards and standards for others. While subscription based stuff sucks, Microsoft still popularized online play for consoles, which is impressive. Sony popularized CD usage which is an industry standard for consoles nowadays as well. Outright ignoring certain things the competition does can hinder you greatly, as what happened with the constant delays of many Wii U games because Nintendo hadn't really practiced with HD design, despite it becoming
an industry standard and obviously needing to be utilized (I'm referring to 720p, as many TVs these days don't even have composite input to support consoles anymore).

To summarize, the only people who should be called NDF are the ones who honestly believe Nintendo has never done anything wrong at all, despite them clearly doing some bad things, and them defending the bad things. Just because it's not as bad, doesn't excuse it. Best example of it is how many people defend the act of region locking by basically saying things like "barely anyone imports." Now for the home consoles, I can understand it a bit because Nintendo's home consoles have never been region free. But for handhelds, it's completely stupid as every single Nintendo handheld, minus the DSi, have been region free. Suddenly now, the 3DS is region locked and there are many games that will never be localized outside of Japan that you'd have to buy an entire new 3DS for. As someone who's studying abroad in Japan next year, the fact that I'm possibly gonna have to buy a whole new 3DS is not the best thing ever.

I can't deny that. Sony brought us discs, Microsoft brought online play to the home console, while I may not like games that lean on that to sell themselves we'd be in a worse place if that never got popular on home consoles. Save for Klonoa(which I have never heard of) those games kicked so much ass. Crash 3 and Spyro 2 remain two of my favorite games of that era period. The "barely anyone imports" thing is bullshit. In the global world we live in with things like Ebay and Amazon its never been easier to do. If Nintendo could at least work that out it would be awesome. Sure people like Angry Joe and Jim may still have a rough time and I'd feel bad for them but I'd rather Nintendo square away its region stuff first instead of the Youtube thing. You gotta take the good with the bad. To my eyes right now Nintendo is the lesser of all evils but I won't deny they've screwed up and I'll acknowledge when other companies do things better than them.

Honestly there worst DLC I still think is the one for New Super Mario Bros 2, as it's overly expensive for what is. Hyrule Warriors I'm more pissed at for Nintendo going along with Tecmo Koei on the "exclusive at x retailer" DLC. I've always hated that, as it just restricts more content overall.

I never downloaded it. Then again it came at a time I was pinching my pennies as it is I wasn't really buying much anyway. Yeah the exclusive at x retailer is bullshit. I've always thought that though. Exclusive preorder DLC I wouldn't mind if the preorder market and DLC market hadn't turned to shit so fast. It should be cool but small stuff for fans. Like the Goku costume in Ultimate Ninja Storm 3. Was preorder DLC and I don't even think retailer exclusive either. Big fan of DBZ all my life, big fan of Naruto, perfect type of preorder DLC if you ask me. Still even though the Hyrule Warriors thing bugs me its the Alien Isolation stuff that really pisses me off and I'm not even a huge Alien fan but just as a fan of nerd stuff that would bring my blood to a boil.

Also may I say its nice to find someone with an actual rational brain on the internet....actually haven't we crossed paths before?

In all honesty, the 360 wasn't a failure in the slightest from one viewpoint selling many units and outselling its major competitor for the first few years since its launch. The first Xbox was more or less a failure and the Xbone's success is kind of debatable. But for a market that Microsoft has sunk insane financial figures into, then yeah, it simply has not come close to performing to their expectations.

It will feel weird if they bow out of the console race since they have been a major part of the Games industry for a while now and have the financial capability to go on indefinitely if they wanted. I can't help but feel that many people that have been with Xbox all those years would not be too pleased if they do bow out of the console race and Xbox Live gets taken down (which won't be for a looooong time).

LaochEire:
I tried getting back into PC gaming just this week. My PC died and I needed a new one. It was an absolute hassle and a nightmare to buy. Buying one was expensive, building one on sites that do custom PC's was expensive. I didn't know what represented good value. Eventually, I moved to eBay to just buy one. Again, so annoying. Had 30 PC's to choose from and every time I googled the specs I'd get conflicting reports.

Took me 2 weeks of research to pick one I felt was right for me at the right price. In the mean time I could just simply play games on my consoles. Hassle free. I would assume the vast majority of the general population feel the same.

Never buy one from a store.
Never buy from Ebay.
Never buy from a website.

You must build it yourself because stores price fix. You aren't paying a 30% mark up, you can have up to 100% markup on some of these PCs.

There is very little competition in the prebuilt PC world, so they can charge whatever they want.

Here:
http://www.logicalincrements.com/

and here is GPU and CPU benchmarks.
http://www.passmark.com/
http://www.futuremark.com/

Ultratwinkie:
1. Custom is not the same as standard. PCs are standard and everything is made to be in a uniform shape. What consoles need is custom parts designed for it specifically. And that's where it gets expensive regardless of how cheap or weak it is on PC. You have to design new factories for the parts you want to make.

... The point is not all consoles require X amount of money to develop, Sony dumping X million on their console doesn't mean Nintendo has to. You know that Nintendo haven't put out a "cutting edge" console in a long time so to think their costs will be as high as the other two is odd to say the least.

Ultratwinkie:

Never buy one from a store.
Never buy from Ebay.
Never buy from a website.

You must build it yourself because stores price fix. You aren't paying a 30% mark up, you can have up to 100% markup on some of these PCs.

There is very little competition in the prebuilt PC world, so they can charge whatever they want.

Here:
http://www.logicalincrements.com/

and here is GPU and CPU benchmarks.
http://www.passmark.com/
http://www.futuremark.com/

Okay yes you're right on the markup and all that, but... how can you say that yet hold the belief that PC will soon suddenly become all "Mainstream" and the platform everyone games on? Storebought PCs are what the common man is going to buy and those are expensive as you know. That is likely why the conception of PC as overly expensive will likely never go away come to think about it.

William Fleming:
In all honesty, the 360 wasn't a failure in the slightest from one viewpoint selling many units and outselling its major competitor for the first few years since its launch. The first Xbox was more or less a failure and the Xbone's success is kind of debatable. But for a market that Microsoft has sunk insane financial figures into, then yeah, it simply has not come close to performing to their expectations.

It will feel weird if they bow out of the console race since they have been a major part of the Games industry for a while now and have the financial capability to go on indefinitely if they wanted. I can't help but feel that many people that have been with Xbox all those years would not be too pleased if they do bow out of the console race and Xbox Live gets taken down (which won't be for a looooong time).

A business keeping around something that does nothing but lose money really only happens in a couple of instances. One for example is if the boss is someone who really believes in the continuation of the product regardless of the loss, take Ted Turner and WCW.
Ballmer if the Xbox goes down this generation will be seen as the Xbox's Ted Turner essentially, and he is gone now so there really isn't anybody to block for the Xbox.

Rozalia1:

Ultratwinkie:
1. Custom is not the same as standard. PCs are standard and everything is made to be in a uniform shape. What consoles need is custom parts designed for it specifically. And that's where it gets expensive regardless of how cheap or weak it is on PC. You have to design new factories for the parts you want to make.

... The point is not all consoles require X amount of money to develop, Sony dumping X million on their console doesn't mean Nintendo has to. You know that Nintendo haven't put out a "cutting edge" console in a long time so to think their costs will be as high as the other two is odd to say the least.

William Fleming:
In all honesty, the 360 wasn't a failure in the slightest from one viewpoint selling many units and outselling its major competitor for the first few years since its launch. The first Xbox was more or less a failure and the Xbone's success is kind of debatable. But for a market that Microsoft has sunk insane financial figures into, then yeah, it simply has not come close to performing to their expectations.

It will feel weird if they bow out of the console race since they have been a major part of the Games industry for a while now and have the financial capability to go on indefinitely if they wanted. I can't help but feel that many people that have been with Xbox all those years would not be too pleased if they do bow out of the console race and Xbox Live gets taken down (which won't be for a looooong time).

A business keeping around something that does nothing but lose money really only happens in a couple of instances. One for example is if the boss is someone who really believes in the continuation of the product regardless of the loss, take Ted Turner and WCW.
Ballmer if the Xbox goes down this generation will be seen as the Xbox's Ted Turner essentially, and he is gone now so there really isn't anybody to block for the Xbox.

The Xbone isn't cutting edge. It uses under powered tech with a gimmick stapled to it. The more custom you make your console, the more expensive it is.

Custom hardware is expensive to make. Period. Even Nvidia said as much.

hardware is not a cheap industry.

why does it seem like this is the first generation where people dont realize that consoles are almost always sold at a loss in the beginning?

Adam Jensen:
Wow. How much would they lose if they didn't change all those horrible policies, I wonder.

Well I'm sure the Xbone heartbreaks will eventually crawl out and claim that the changes in policy are the main cause of the loss.

Me? I'm sticking with:
1) The loss of consumer trust caused by the highly dubious and confusing Xbone reveal.
2) The fact that nobody wants a $500 cable box
3) The PS4 is cheaper

But in fairness, also:
4) The Xbone isn't even a year out on the market, and the APU alone cost M$ at least 1.5 BILLION (USD) to develop; and that assumes they split the 3 Billion R&D cost evenly with AMD, which I sincerely doubt since AMD was hurting for money, and Nvidia turned Microsoft's bid down FOR BEING TOO CHEAP)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20130527231722_Microsoft_Xbox_One_APU_Cost_Over_3_Billion_to_Develop.html

The R&D and added production costs were probably pretty steep. Honestly, 400 million in loss isn't really a big deal for M$.

Zhukov:

Although I suppose such an event could have unforeseen consequences. For example, it might adversely affect the PC, since Xbox games tend to get released on PC as a matter of course. Possibly? Eh, I dunno, I'm neither an economist nor even an industry watcher.

which Xbox games would that be? because while I wasn't "around" at the time I do belive there was some bullshit surrounding Halo 3 and Vista....

....well I guess theres Ryse..*snrrrk*

Savagezion:

However, overall the PC is basically mandatory in the home. For the middle class, the largest demographic, avoiding learning basic computer skills is just choosing to be ignorant. Choosing to be ignorant doesn't make the PC no longer a viable alternative. That's like saying Playstation is already a monopoly because I am not interested in Nintendo (platformers) and Xbox (shooters) game libraries. That's just selective vision.
.

I don't know....If anything I think the rise of tabelts and such have taken out the need for computer knoweldge

Ultratwinkie:

Actually AAA gaming is on its way out. Even Ubisoft admitted that they can't afford to keep spending 50 million on a basic AAA that has no guarantee of it selling.
.

Ubisoft? who has the seccond biggest cashcow of all? why are thease games so expensive and where is the money going?

while I'm all in favor of substance over style...it does make me wonder if it will affect the single player game...

Vault101:

Ultratwinkie:

Actually AAA gaming is on its way out. Even Ubisoft admitted that they can't afford to keep spending 50 million on a basic AAA that has no guarantee of it selling.
.

Ubisoft? who has the seccond biggest cashcow of all? why are thease games so expensive and where is the money going?

while I'm all in favor of substance over style...it does make me wonder if it will affect the single player game...

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/aaa-games-dying-out-says-assassins-creed-iii-director/1100-6394636/

For many reasons.

1. speed. Normally you hire 1 studio for 1 game back in the 90s. Now you need 10 studios working year-round for a yearly game. A lot of paychecks.

To make matters worse, the poaching in the tech industry drove up costs to hire a single programmer. So now take a normal paycheck and make that 3 paychecks per person.

2. A lot of that money goes to advertising. More is spend marketing than developing.

3. When you spend millions, you want billions. So high success of one game means that anything below that point is a failure to investors.

Even if you make 500 million profit, that is a far cry from GTA V's billion. So you call it a failure and can the series.

this wouldn't have happened if big devs didn't buy out middle devs back in the 90s. Its like taking all the lobsters out in the wild and forcing them into factory farms. So now we have amateur indies and AAA game devs with no middle in between.

Now that indies are growing since AAA is deflating, we will eventually get our middle games back. It will take a while, but it will happen.

"...The good experiences I enjoyed with my 360", heh, good joke.

Honestly I'm not surprised, they've changed their focus and statements on their consoles like I change my underwear, re-focusing the Xbone as a "gaming console" (!) might be the right first step, but I'd sure as hell wouldn't trust them anymore if they decide to turn things as much once more.

But in all fairness, the Xbone's generation has just begun, I wouldn't judge a console's success in less than a year of it's performance.

Ultratwinkie:

Now that indies are growing since AAA is deflating, we will eventually get our middle games back. It will take a while, but it will happen.

I supose we'll see....as I said I wouldn't be surprised to see more F2P and Tianfall in the future...

....anyway I may not know anything about game development but I don't see why you can't get a decent game without having to spend that much

not blockbuster per se but not artsy pixel graphics eather

Vault101:

Zhukov:

Although I suppose such an event could have unforeseen consequences. For example, it might adversely affect the PC, since Xbox games tend to get released on PC as a matter of course. Possibly? Eh, I dunno, I'm neither an economist nor even an industry watcher.

which Xbox games would that be? because while I wasn't "around" at the time I do belive there was some bullshit surrounding Halo 3 and Vista....

....well I guess theres Ryse..*snrrrk*

Well, there was the Mass Effect series (although that did eventually come out on PS3), Fable, Kingdoms of Amulahblahblah, and...

Um, and...

State of Decay?

Huh.

Okay, granted, it's hardly the most impressive list.

Regardless, my point was that Sony and Nintendo tend to hang on a bit tighter to their exclusives than Microsoft does, so turning the console market into a two horse race between Sony and Nintendo might result in fewer cross-platform releases making it to PC.

Like I said though, it's just speculation on my part, and fairly ignorant speculation at that.

Zhukov:

Well, there was the Mass Effect series (although that did eventually come out on PS3), Fable, Kingdoms of Amulahblahblah, and...
.

in regards to mass effect I supose but then that was always on PC....

Vault101:

Zhukov:

Well, there was the Mass Effect series (although that did eventually come out on PS3), Fable, Kingdoms of Amulahblahblah, and...
.

in regards to mass effect I supose but then that was always on PC....

Um... yeah, that's part of the point that I'm clumsily trying to make here.

Despite being designed primarily for Xbox, it still got released on PC. This happens more commonly (I think) with Xbox games than PS/Nintendo games.

Zachary Amaranth:

...I'm sure that's different, somehow. Because ponies.

Consoles are closed propriatary systems that all must be identical.
Pcs can differ vastly from build to build and is more of what the user wants/are willing to buy rather than dictated by manufacturer.

No ponies involved.

Verlander:

No shit.

Perhaps my initial post wasn't clear, it was badly worded. The department is making sales, and so that loss really isn't a problem.[/quote]
I can see your point now, but i didnt get that angle from your initial post. Yes, microsoft always made its profit by holding free services hostage (like multiplayer) and making profit to cover the losses elsewhere. however the profit needs to be high enough to cover said losses, and history of Xbox platform so far shows that it has not been so. The initial investment hasnt been paid since the beginning of the Xbox. And its worth noting that there is no way Xbox Done is going to sell as well as 360. 360 sold well because it had no competition - Wii was full of shovelware and "Did its own thing", PS3 launched a year later and its launch was a disaster, so for a long time 360 was the only game in town for these consolites. When PS3 actually started competing we saw it catch up in sale numbers and even beat it at the end.

This time both PS4 and WiiU are much stronger competitors to One.

kilenem:
lets not bring politics in this please. Although I think Israel has something to do with the creation the first Kinect

If i remmeber correctly the lab that deisgned kinect sensors and makes them is located in Israel.

BaronVH:
It is not in anybody's interest for any of these three to fail unless all you care about is Candy Crush. Imagine one movie studio. If you enjoy movies, that would be a horrible thing to happen. Look at how far the music industry has sunk. All of these people who feel like they were betrayed by this or that decision, just lighten up and go play a good game.

It is in fact everyone that loves games interest that bad companies fair and good companies replace them. and since, as you say, it is the largest industry out there, it sure as hell going to fill the power vacuum and quick. Also funny how you imply Candy Crush being the only alternative to Microsoft.

Its GOOD that music industry suffers. it is run by horrible people that does not deserve to make the millions they do. It needs a hard reset. Just look at all the content ID claims of police sirens being "a copyrighted song" and basically stealing ad revenue. Not that gaming is any better - Nintendo did the same.

fix-the-spade:

Mobile GPUs caught up with some aspects of consoles last year, they still rely on internal batteries and playing a 'real' video game on a touch screen is still horrible and will remain horrible until controller add-ons for tablets become standardised in their layout.

Mobile GPUs, such as Tegra K1 outperform console GPUs. this is a fact that is not offset by control schemes. Control schemes has NOTHING to do with GPU power.

As far as controls go, you can plug your controller or keyboard and mouse into a tablet. you can connect it to a large TV, and you can plug it into the wall. it would then act like normal console, except you can punplug it and take it with you and still use it unlike console.

Games supporting controllers without needing to remap things manually is another thing, but thats the fault of games.

No one is going to play Halo on a touch screen with an expected battery life under an hour, just like consoles didn't kill PC, mobile won't kill consoles. If tablets get standardised layout controls, massively improved batteries and the ability to project an image in real time to the TV and be responsive then yeah, consoles doomed, but we're nowhere near that yet.

I dont know what kind of tablet you use, but it must be horrible to run out of battery in half an hour. This is not normal.

Consoles didnt kill PCs because they were never more functional than PCs. meanwhile if tablets outperform consoles, they can act both as a console and a tablet, thus are more functional than a console.

Regards the Xbone's processing power, doesn't matter if Microsoft can make the games. PSone was less powerful than the N64, PS2 less than the Xbox and the Cube, but hardware sells on price and the products available on it. Microsoft has sorted the price, now they need some essential games and the Xbone will be fine, it's unlikely to match the PS4, but Microsoft will make money easy.

historical discrepancies aside (not going to bother proving that cube was less pwoerful than PS2), hardware sells on more than price. right now prices are the same, so people chose better hardware. in this case its PS4. However the largest seller is console loyalty. If price was the only factor - everyone would game on PC - PC gaming is much cheaper.

Its true that holding games ransom does affect sales. I know somone who bought PS3 for Dust 514. does not make it a good thing. Microsoft will not make money on it as much as you think though. with smaller install base exclusives become less useful.

The_Kodu:

Tablets have to run a fairly robust operating system while consoles can dedicate far more of their run time to games and a far more minimal system.

As yet I don't see many Tablets providing even PS2 level game quality regularly.

This was true before 2006. When last gen lauched consoles also run robust OS.

I dont see many consoles providing PS2 level game quality regulary, whats your point?

The_Kodu:

Which is pretty important as until later in the lifespan most other consoles are money sinks. They cost large amounts to develop and then have to be sold at a considerable loss until parts costs and better sourcing etc bring costs down. Most other companies sell at a quite a big loss per console just to gain the install base initially.

except that looking at hardware in current consoles, microsoft and sony should be making profit from hardware sales as is and that they dont only shows they have large overhead expenses.

Vykrel:
why does it seem like this is the first generation where people dont realize that consoles are almost always sold at a loss in the beginning?

because this is the first generation where console tech is so weak it should be making profit at that price.

Rozalia1:

Okay yes you're right on the markup and all that, but... how can you say that yet hold the belief that PC will soon suddenly become all "Mainstream" and the platform everyone games on? Storebought PCs are what the common man is going to buy and those are expensive as you know. That is likely why the conception of PC as overly expensive will likely never go away come to think about it.

When you buy a table at IKEA, you get a bunch of parts, screws and instruction to construct it yourself. 99% of buyers can do this easily and build their own table. Building a PC is simpler than building that table. Thus, building it yourself can easily become the mainstream way to buy PCs, just like it became for furniture.

Strazdas:

Its GOOD that music industry suffers. it is run by horrible people that does not deserve to make the millions they do. It needs a hard reset. Just look at all the content ID claims of police sirens being "a copyrighted song" and basically stealing ad revenue. Not that gaming is any better - Nintendo did the same.
.

I wont defend record companies but the music industry is in a bit of severe pickle....in that they just can't get people to pay for their shit, its no longer piracy but streaming...Stuff like Spotify aparently can't make up for it

Vault101:

Strazdas:

Its GOOD that music industry suffers. it is run by horrible people that does not deserve to make the millions they do. It needs a hard reset. Just look at all the content ID claims of police sirens being "a copyrighted song" and basically stealing ad revenue. Not that gaming is any better - Nintendo did the same.
.

I wont defend record companies but the music industry is in a bit of severe pickle....in that they just can't get people to pay for their shit, its no longer piracy but streaming...Stuff like Spotify aparently can't make up for it

noone wants to pay for 20th century market practices? tough shit. Can you tell me a single website that has a decent collection of music that i could legally buy and download? Oh and Itunes wont work because:
1. Itunes DRM
2. Terrible quality

Of course people wont buy for outdated sales, and since no legal modern exists, people will pirate. its a service problem. Also multiple artists have stated that they would much rather release music for free and earn money from tours because piracy vastly increased their audience at tours - where they get most of the money anyway.

Strazdas:

noone wants to pay for 20th century market practices? tough shit.

I'm not talking about $20 a CD, I'm talking about any money at all

Can you tell me a single website that has a decent collection of music that i could legally buy and download? Oh and Itunes wont work because:
1. Itunes DRM
2. Terrible quality

I'm not sure to the extent of the DRM on songs, if streaming isn't an issue there is spotify which is built like itunes where you can find practically anything and its free (the only thing is you have to listen to an add every now and again if your not subscribed)

Of course people wont buy for outdated sales, and since no legal modern exists, people will pirate. its a service problem.

I'm not talking about piracey, I'm talking about the perfectly legit method of streaming, aparently they just can't make up the difference

Also multiple artists have stated that they would much rather release music for free and earn money from tours because piracy vastly increased their audience at tours - where they get most of the money anyway.

thats all good and well but thats not the case for every artist...and quite frankly people (non musicians) tend to parrot the same things

yes record companies were terrible, yes the serivces are the important factor....but lets not gloss over the fact that technology has really blured the lines on how to actually make money from their efforts, people generally don't want to pay for things

Ultratwinkie:

Never buy one from a store.
Never buy from Ebay.
Never buy from a website.

I bought mine from ebay!!

....not that I'd recomend that to anyone unless you know exactly what your doing...

Vault101:

Ultratwinkie:

Never buy one from a store.
Never buy from Ebay.
Never buy from a website.

I bought mine from ebay!!

....not that I'd recomend that to anyone unless you know exactly what your doing...

Exactly, I seen some shady shit over there. Like this guy was selling an old dell and saying it was a high spec gaming computer that costs thousands and thousands of dollars, and saying it had a "full RAM kit for maximum gaming and a high end graphics card."

It was over 10 years old. And ran windows XP.

And people fell for it. Seriously.

kilenem:
I hope that Microsoft can turn the Xbox division around and these numbers are just from the X1 development. Although I'm not sure if if the Xbox division has made a profit. I liked the 360, I hope the X1 eventually mimic's the good experiences I enjoyed with my 360.

Shame really. The first xbox was a wonderful console, I actually preferred it to my PS2 GTA 3, vice city and san andreas were all much better experiences on the console. Also had tons of fun on morrowind and Halo 1 and 2, project zero, silent hill 2, psychonauts and the otogi games.

The rot set in with the 360 which had some decent games but wa a poorly made wreck. Sony managed to recover mainly thanks to microsofts complanceny. Now the Xbone is complete disaster. Sadly for sony their machine is only moderately better so i've emigrated to PC gaming and may be investing in a wiiu. The only machine that seems interested in gamers.

Ultratwinkie:

Exactly, I seen some shady shit over there. Like this guy was selling an old dell and saying it was a high spec gaming computer that costs thousands and thousands of dollars, and saying it had a "full RAM kit for maximum gaming and a high end graphics card."

It was over 10 years old. And ran windows XP.

And people fell for it. Seriously.

heh....

it wasn't some random person but a professional seller...they had a bunch of "pre-mades" (that were more or less "just ok") but the real thing was you selected the upgrades/parts

I quardruple checked (and checked and checked and checked) and vaugly knew how much each part was ment to cost and its been going fine for almost 2 years now

the funny thing is though after an issue with Paypal/ebay....several dozen freaked out phone calls, a trek carrying a really heavy box while looking like I'm about to have a heart attatck and drop dead (at least 4 people aksed if I needed help) and then another freak out and angry email when it turns out it wont recognise the hardrive....followed by angels decending from the heavans and singing halleujeah when I open up the box...pop it back in and everything is fine (I think it was more likley a transit issue)

it would have been easyer to build one mabye XD

Let put this into perspective for some of you Nay-sayers.
Compared to the launch of the Sony Playstation 3 and the original Xbox, The Xbox One is a hit.
http://www.vg247.com/2009/10/30/sony-ps-division-has-lost-4-7-billion-since-launching-ps3/

Strazdas:

The_Kodu:

Tablets have to run a fairly robust operating system while consoles can dedicate far more of their run time to games and a far more minimal system.

As yet I don't see many Tablets providing even PS2 level game quality regularly.

This was true before 2006. When last gen lauched consoles also run robust OS.

I dont see many consoles providing PS2 level game quality regulary, whats your point?

Except even most modern consoles don't have a large amount of apps still open running in the background at the same times.

Yes console do more but most aren't doing it all at once.

Also I think console graphics have evolved beyond nearly square heads and non moving lips.

Strazdas:

The_Kodu:

Which is pretty important as until later in the lifespan most other consoles are money sinks. They cost large amounts to develop and then have to be sold at a considerable loss until parts costs and better sourcing etc bring costs down. Most other companies sell at a quite a big loss per console just to gain the install base initially.

except that looking at hardware in current consoles, microsoft and sony should be making profit from hardware sales as is and that they dont only shows they have large overhead expenses.

They have to develop and design them and the operating systems this isn't android on the consoles.
They have to engineer it all in and develop and sort out what processor and GPU they want in the system which are often actually custom jobs.

One recent observation: I was at Gamestop. At their doorway was a stack of used consoles for sale (but not a very big price drop for a freakin used console!) It was a stack of PS3s and... Xbox Ones ($450 rather than $500, big whoop!) Not Wii U nor PS4.

This is the current sales chart:

image

5 Million is not that bad (not that good) for a system that has not been out a year yet. But of that 5 million, how many disproportionately so, have been taken right back to the store?

At this time, I'd like to play Forza 5. That's about it from that system.

Sorry to interrupt the daily Xbone hate thread, but that's actually not true at all.

...this data reflects gross margins (revenue and the cost of revenue), not overall profit or losses. Secondly, and far more importantly, these figures are not totals for the year - they represent the changes over the previous year...

...Xbox sales resulted in roughly $7.1 billion in revenues against roughly $5 billion in costs. That's not a $400 million difference that outlets such as Forbes are citing...

...Still, however, the figures in Microsoft's report don't equate to profit or loss. Subtracting the $5 billion costs associated with Xbox production and other areas from Microsoft's $7.1 billion Xbox revenue only represents gross margin, not the overall profit or loss.

Vault101:

Ultratwinkie:

Exactly, I seen some shady shit over there. Like this guy was selling an old dell and saying it was a high spec gaming computer that costs thousands and thousands of dollars, and saying it had a "full RAM kit for maximum gaming and a high end graphics card."

It was over 10 years old. And ran windows XP.

And people fell for it. Seriously.

heh....

it wasn't some random person but a professional seller...they had a bunch of "pre-mades" (that were more or less "just ok") but the real thing was you selected the upgrades/parts

I quardruple checked (and checked and checked and checked) and vaugly knew how much each part was ment to cost and its been going fine for almost 2 years now

the funny thing is though after an issue with Paypal/ebay....several dozen freaked out phone calls, a trek carrying a really heavy box while looking like I'm about to have a heart attatck and drop dead (at least 4 people aksed if I needed help) and then another freak out and angry email when it turns out it wont recognise the hardrive....followed by angels decending from the heavans and singing halleujeah when I open up the box...pop it back in and everything is fine (I think it was more likley a transit issue)

it would have been easyer to build one mabye XD

It would be. My prebuilt finally died about 3 years ago. It was a money pit I was stuck with for a lot of years.

Whatever part you put into that thing died.

The tally was:
1 graphics card
3-4 hard drives. They died every year.

all of them died because of heat, and the CPU cooler wasn't upgradeable. They made sure that if one part failed, the entire thing went bust.

Oh and it overheated more than a gun from Mass Effect 1. So every so often I wouldn't have a PC all summer.

My family harassed me to get the geek squad when my graphics card broke (it overheated and cracked. it was defective to boot.) way back when, so I humored them and brought it there one time with them there. He said the motherboard was dead and it would be better to buy a new one.

I already knew what the issue was. So i dared the guy to replace the graphics card. If it worked, I buy a card; If it didn't, I shut up and let him do whatever.

He replaced the card and it worked. They still don't think I knew what I was talking about. They thought I was just lucky. It was a waste of my time, but at least I got a new card for a while before the heat kills it.

But that didn't fix the main problem.

Shitty stock cooling, no airflow, and you couldn't upgrade anything but the hard drive and graphics card. It finally died during the biggest (and last) week of school, and I needed a new computer built from scratch to do the work. I had to pay 100$ for a rush order for a store to put it together over there so I wouldn't be harassed at home when I built it because "I ain't an expert."

And now my new PC, which I dubbed "majestic," hasn't had a failure in its 3+ years of life. My old one would of needed 3 repairs and reformats, and I reformatted this year to clean out my clutter not because of a break down. I've never been happier.

So its best to avoid prebuilts because they can and will turn into money pits. When you do have a money pit, make the sacrifice and get out of there. Don't stand around trying to make it work until you start having a lot of money. With the yearly breakdowns, that will never come.

So I got what I could and would invest later down the line, I just needed to get away from the money pit.

So now with extra money not going to the yearly money pit tax, I will now build a steambox to be ready when valve starts selling music, TV shows, and movies at cut rate prices.

Ultratwinkie:

joest01:

Ultratwinkie:

They had 10 billion in 2012 and now they only have 4.7 billion.

That's bad.

Actually, your link says they had 16bn in assets and now have 13.

Back on topic though, I don't think the CoD and Madden crowd has reason to be worried. If MSFT really did pull out, I am sure somebody will pick up the slack. In that I think the situation is different from N and Sony...

Assets mean property. I own 10 billion in ferarris, but that doesn't translate to 10 billion in my bank account. A drop that big ain't good no matter how you cut it.[quote="kilenem" post="9.857656.21258850"]

I'm not cutting anything, you are. if their balance sheet puts these Ferraris at 10bn then thats what it is. That money shifts does not make it disappear. Part of the drop might even be down to them holding some of their own stock.

Still not a good development for them but lets not take bits and pieces and interpret them out of context.

But surely a lot better situation than Sony is in, trust me, I bought some of their stock back when they owned the living room. Good thing I diversify because I would be a very poor man now.

And MSFT, for them it will be down to whether they continue to consider this piece of their business strategic. And something tells me that they are watching it very very closely these days.

I have a PS4 now myself, but I'm not ready to call the big competition yet because really it seems to me both the Xbox1 and PS4 have been taking their sweet time on getting decent games out there. All it takes is a couple of decent "killer apps" and it can change the entire playing field as we've seen people will literally buy entire consoles or one or two games if those games are good enough.

I mean it's nice to talk about indies, the state of the big developers, and all of that stuff, but at the end of the day whether it comes from indies or AAA those big defining games are likely going to happen, if they don't everyone is going to die. The ones who get them are going to be the big winners.

I tend to think the PS4 is going to dominate, but honestly I'm not willing to count Microsoft out no matter how bad they have been doing recently, because they have been involved in the rat race a long time. Likewise to win big, you have to play big, and honestly at the level Microsoft plays at I'm not sure if 400m is enough for them to really worry about, make noises about yes, but worry about? I don't think so because honestly it seems both consoles are playing the long game as both released without much in the way of actual software or games. While the PS4 seems like an early favorite, I expect it will be years before this even comes close to playing out.

I'll also say that I disagree with the 360 having a bad selection of games, while my 360 has departed, it was the console I played things like "Alan Wake" and "Tales Of Vesperia" on it. I'm not a big shooter fan, and I found a lot of decent games for it. Now granted my PS3 library seemed to always be bigger as I just flat out liked that console better, but I'm not going to knock 360 for being a one trick pony and having nothing else for it.

Savagezion:
snip

Hating the concept of branding driving consumption is not at all unreasonable. The silver lining in this, if you can call it that, is that its by no means specific to our industry. Ever since the advent of modern marketing somewhere around the 1930's, advertizing has been appealing more and more to feelings rather than function (Which for the producer is very beneficial, you can gain an edge without offering a better performing or more economical product) , which is why we have seen the transition from the very simple and straightforward marketing of old, into the incredibly psychologically complex and manipulative marketing of today.

Fortunately, the effects of marketing are less drastic the more involved the person is in the scene. For example, a casual gamer may easily be swayed to buy one console over the other based on a few adverts for the console or a few trailers for the games he does enjoy. Where as a hardcore hobbyist is more likely to look into specs, upcoming release lists beyond the launch window, etc.

Thing is, very few people suddenly go from playing little to no games into a core gamer, and in those cases that people try, I imagine it doesn't always go over very well. Bit like the stereotype of the guy who decides to start playing golf, and despite having played little to no golf before, goes to the sports goods store and spends 3000 dollars on club sets and branded poloshirts.

The convoluted comparison aside, thats where I saw the potential in the whole steambox thing. As a bridge between the casual market and the pc users. I mean sure, it wont be the cheapest, most open or powerful choice you could make, but it would be an easy and a convinient one. Then hopefully, after gaming on it for a time, they would start noticing some of the downsides of a steambox compared to a fully open platform. That way, instead of being this hurdle, they would have it in the back of their minds when the time for the next purchase comes around. Going back to the golf comparison, (Bear with me here) you could invest time and research all the different equippement and ask around to get the best value and performance. Or you could get a starting kit, it's got some stuff you don't need, probably missing some stuff you could use, but you'll learn what those are as you play with your friends, making it an easier transition.

The thing is most people with enough disposable income for luxuries (which gaming is), tend to prefer to invest money more than time. What that sometimes means is preferring to make a fast purchase over a well researched one. I assume this would go double for entertainment (You dont want to do something not fun, in order to get to the funpart, kind of like grinding in a RPG).

Anyways, moving away from my rambling as to why I think large demographics still find PC gaming unattractive, back to the steambox itself. The reason I used past tense before, regarding the potential of Steambox, is because I agree with you. Steambox with its numerous versions seems to be in this akward space inbetween pc and console. Not streamlining and cohesive enough to make them their own brand in a way that a person who isn't open to the idea of gaming PCs in the first place would find attractive. While at the same time doing little to appeal to the core gamer either. I'm afraid all it will end up being is a cash grab, selling excisting PCs with steam preinstalled. Which is about as legit as selling a "Microsoft Machine" just because it has Office 2013 bundled.

TLDR: Branding is a problem everywhere. People don't want to/are too lazy to ask around and research, and prefer to get a subpar experience if its easier. Steambox will probably be a shitbox and even my summary is two lines long holy shit.

Eh, I was about as unhappy with the X1's launch as everyone else's but 400 million isn't that bad. Not when they're likely already selling it at a profit.

Most hardware development cycles see heavy up front expenses that translate into losses in the first year. We're going to have to see next year's numbers to get a real gauge on it.

Still not going to buy it. The move they took to squash license ownership has me unwilling to trust them with holding onto my gaming library for the next few generations. Considering they also dropped Windows Live games they've got a double no-go from me.

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