When i used to play BF2, people used to kill each other to get the planes, if you ever managed to get one, yeah it was fun to fly around, and doing some massive skydive and getting back into the plane, just doing random stunts, were easier, and more fun, than attempting to fly after someone, and shooting them for a couple of seconds, just for them to get away. But saying that, some people seemed to be really good at it, so i spose my statement is pretty void... never mind :D

Talking of flight sims, did anyone ever play Super EF 2000? It's quite an old game now, and the graphics are fugly by todays standards, but I think it's pretty hard to beat in pure 'simulation' terms. Hell, the game manual was thicker than most encyclopedias. There was nothing arcadey about that game. It usually took you 10 minutes just to start your plane up and get it off the ground.

doomgaze3:
Meh, never been much for the flight sims and the Ace Combat games are utter tripe IMHO. Try a space sim (Freespace 2, Freelancer, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, etc) or try buying Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge. Crimson Skies, in fact, is amazing. If you can get your hands on the old one for PC, that's even better.

I find it quite funny that you call flight sims and ace combat tripe while at the same time telling people to try a genre that is basically the same but with laser guns and asteroids...

Okay heeeeeeeeere we go. After Burner and it's bastard children are not SIMs. They are arcade flight combat games who's hold on realism is tenuous at the best of times. That being said i really have no problem playing them properly and getting off kills using tactics I have learned from my SIM experience. Sounds like OP's griping because he cannot get a grip on this specific gametype (which seems to happen alot in these forums). PROTIP: If you and your opponent are in a turning fight, it's up to YOU to win it. It's not the AI's job to let you win. Such things are integral to dogfighting and come with the territory. Find the manual for any decent SIM and learn the basic maneuvers. They WILL help you to defeat the bogeys in arcade flight games as well. Use scissor technique, break off's, Immelman, pull-overs, and overshooting. Hell, do a barrel roll. Just don't expect to loop around in afterburner for hours and expect it to get you anywhere. Either that or, you know, play a game you can hack and stop whining?

Quick edit to ask a question. I'm currently playing the HAWX demo and find it infuriating that I have to use that wonky chase camera in unassisted mode. Is there any way to get back in the cockpit during the training sequence or do I have to tough it out?

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Quick edit to ask a question. I'm currently playing the HAWX demo and find it infuriating that I have to use that wonky chase camera in unassisted mode. Is there any way to get back in the cockpit during the training sequence or do I have to tough it out?

Tough it out, or do what I did. Conclude it is crap and move onto a different game.

cuddly_tomato:

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Quick edit to ask a question. I'm currently playing the HAWX demo and find it infuriating that I have to use that wonky chase camera in unassisted mode. Is there any way to get back in the cockpit during the training sequence or do I have to tough it out?

Tough it out, or do what I did. Conclude it is crap and move onto a different game.

You know I think I'll do just that. Thanks for helping me push that delete button friend. Sometimes ah just need a little help.

I loved and STILL love Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. What a wicked game.

For those who may not know, Falcon 4.0 is still being updated and published:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Force
http://www.graphsim.com/games-falcon-af.html

Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

Doug:
Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

You really think so huh? Trust me son, when two evenly matched nations are at war, the fighting is alot more than fire and forget missiles. The problem (actually not a problem) is that these days it's usually a much better developed nation taking on a poor or less developed nation.

EDIT: Actually yeah that's still a problem.

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Doug:
Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

You really think so huh? Trust me son, when two evenly matched nations are at war, the fighting is alot more than fire and forget missiles. The problem (actually not a problem) is that these days it's usually a much better developed nation taking on a poor or less developed nation.

EDIT: Actually yeah that's still a problem.

Well, alright, if you have USA vs say, NATO, yes, it could work. As is, there isn't really an airpower that's aligned against the USA/NATO/Western alliance. China and Russia, maybe, but they are using very dated equipment.

flight sims died with flight simulator

Doug:

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Doug:
Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

You really think so huh? Trust me son, when two evenly matched nations are at war, the fighting is alot more than fire and forget missiles. The problem (actually not a problem) is that these days it's usually a much better developed nation taking on a poor or less developed nation.

EDIT: Actually yeah that's still a problem.

Well, alright, if you have USA vs say, NATO, yes, it could work. As is, there isn't really an airpower that's aligned against the USA/NATO/Western alliance. China and Russia, maybe, but they are using very dated equipment.

I dunno. those SU-42s are pretty badass. But China? What have they got? Old Flankers and Foxbaits?

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Doug:

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Doug:
Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

You really think so huh? Trust me son, when two evenly matched nations are at war, the fighting is alot more than fire and forget missiles. The problem (actually not a problem) is that these days it's usually a much better developed nation taking on a poor or less developed nation.

EDIT: Actually yeah that's still a problem.

Well, alright, if you have USA vs say, NATO, yes, it could work. As is, there isn't really an airpower that's aligned against the USA/NATO/Western alliance. China and Russia, maybe, but they are using very dated equipment.

I dunno. those SU-42s are pretty badass. But China? What have they got? Old Flankers and Foxbaits?

SU-42 does not seem to match any aircraft known to date. The Russian's will soon be getting SU-34's, to replace the MiG 29's they got in 1983.

As for China, their latest aircraft is the F16 (the US fighter/bomber).

Realistically, both countries don't have technological parity with the US or NATO forces. Ok, they are more numerous, that could be enough to tip any conflict their way, but as for air-to-air combat, the Americans have several billion dollars and 10-20 years of research superiority over them.

i don't know why, but i liked the Flight Simulators from microsoft.

yea i said it

Doug:

SU-42 does not seem to match any aircraft known to date. The Russian's will soon be getting SU-34's, to replace the MiG 29's they got in 1983.

As for China, their latest aircraft is the F16 (the US fighter/bomber).

Realistically, both countries don't have technological parity with the US or NATO forces. Ok, they are more numerous, that could be enough to tip any conflict their way, but as for air-to-air combat, the Americans have several billion dollars and 10-20 years of research superiority over them.

You've never seen the Su-42? Swept foreward wing design and canards coupled with thrust vectoring way back in 2002? A Russian test pilot died in an air show performing some slick maneuver where he'd stall out straight up and then slide backwards and flip out to vector-split out of the stall. Kind of like they do with stunt planes at normal air shows but about 80 feet off the ground. I know how hard it is to Google em. I tried a while back because I wanted a cool desktop background, but any trace of them has become hard to come by. May have been scrapped or buried for all I know.

EDIT: Also just because they may have aircraft parity does not necessarily mean they have weapons parity. I.E. AMRAAM > Sparrow

I can't wait for H.A.W.X., mainly because it sounds awesome

Bartiism:
I recently read cuddly_tomato's review of the HAWX demo and frankly I wasn't surprised. Ever since I bought Blazing Angels I realised that you cannot have a fast paced and strategic Air to Air Combat game. Here are the reasons why:

1) Your flying in open space. There is no form of cover, diversity of the landscape, or multiple floor level design that could possibly happen in one of these games. This leads to no ability to have tactics or any kind of cover system; to avoid a missile all you have to do is jerkily fly around like the pilots balls are on fire.

2) You can never, NEVER get a clear shot to your target for more than around 2 seconds. Because both you and your enemy's planes are moving around at high speed, it takes ages for you to turn around again to get a shot at the opponent, by which time he has already moved to a different place.

3) It's dull. Its like playing an FPS in a field with one other player. Except this field is 250 km wide and your characters have the turning ability of 1 degree per minute. While its nice to look at the ground below you, all there is in your immediate line of sight is a cloud, and if your lucky, your opponent.

If you disagree please say why.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a quick note. I wasn't talking about Flying Sims in general, only about those such as HAWX which rely on fast paced shooting. This is the reason I said that developers, such as Red Storm, really shouldn't attempt to combine two completely different genres of games (The FPS and the flight sim) for the sake of being original. This was the reason I was comparing this type of game to FPS.

Signa:

Bartiism:

If you disagree please say why.

I know it's space, but if you haven't played Freespace or Freespace 2, you really need to shut up.

As a (space) flight sim, there were times where I would get killed in a mission, and all I could do was puff out a breath of air, slump back in my chair, and say "Wow. That was awesome." A moment after that, and a chance to cool my nerves and absorb the intense battle, I would then press the "Retry Mission" button. Fun FUN times.

Like the above poster I'd like to mention Freespace 2. I know it's open space rather than ground combat, but I think the principal of the flight sim is the same.

Freespace 2 (and 1... 1 was good too.) combined arcade-style shooting; some mission you can rack up an impressive kill-tally with the whole 'flight sim'. And it's certainly fast-paced!

1) There actually IS a lot of cover, some of the larger ships can be used as cover, and if you're skillful enough, you can actually use your enemies missiles against one of his own ships. Chaotic aerial (celestial?) melee's can often absorb a few shots meant for you if you're brave enough to engage at point-blank range (Like in Return of the Jedi) but watch out for collisions.
I'm not too sure about having no cover leads to no tactics as I found there actually IS a strong tactical element to flight games. Mainly due to having wingmen. If you're outnumbered in a dogfight, you're in pretty big trouble - epecially if you're flying something slower than your enemy. You'll need your wingmen to watch your back, but you may also need them to escort another plane\ship\whatever and what about the enemy capital ship? That needs to go down or there goes your home carrier! You have to quickly assess the situation and figure out which needs doing first and where you can help out. Which part of that enemy ship is easiest to attack and if it's viable knocking out it's weapon system or engine first. With a limited amount of time before it scrags your home carrier and blocks your exit and it's game over.

2) Never getting a clear shot on your target for more than 2 seconds. Well - that's the point, really. It's damn hard to kill enemy fighters on your own sometimes. That's what wingmen are for! While you keep it occupied, your wingman can come in from a different angle and before you can say "Good shot Red Two!" you'll have a kill between you.

In online multiplayer FPS games, I've found that with a skilled opponent I'll have the same problem really. It's why these circle strafing and hopping moves were invented - you stay still, fly in a straight line, let people know you're sniping from behind a certain crate - you die.
FPS's and Flight Sims can actually be similar in this regard, at least in principle.
However this only really applies to boresight shooting, which is pretty much a last resort or a conservative tactic nowadays. Which actually adds a layer of depth. Spend your missiles for an easy kill, or close to fire over iron sights and risk not being able to hit the slippery bastard?

3) It's dull? Well, each to their own, really. If this comes down to "I just don't like flight sims." Then fair enough, matey!

But, since you took the time to post a thread on it, I'll argue your point. I've never played the game you describe. 1 degree a minute sounds excessively slow... but flying a bomber can sometimes feel like that. It's supposed to. Like using a sniper rifle at point blank range.

In your immediate line of sight in Freespace 2 you'll have nebula, starfields, a sun or two (don't look at those) and a chaotic mess of gunfire, manuevering ships, contrails, explosions, flying debris (avoid that), and that approaching bomber wing which you know you'll have to pick one, just pick one or you'll go right through their formation so you line up and OH CRAP! How did that interceptor get behind you! Where the frak were your wingmen! (etc, etc)

In a GOOD flight\space whatever sim there is usually enough going on that you'll have your mind full making sense of the situation and making orders before picking your target.
If you CAN'T see anything, then you can be sure that all hell is gonna break loose any second so take time to re-arm and refuel, send crippled wingmates back to base, etc.

In conclusion, and especially with your addendum, it seems to me that you've played some very BAD flight sims in your time and therefore given up on the genre. While this is fair enough if you generally don't like them, it's a disingenious argument to simply state - 'I played X game and it sucked balls, so therefore this style of game CAN NEVER WORK!'

Long story short, this HAWX game probably sucks, and that's fair enough. But that's like me playing FEAR 2, disliking it and then posting a thread on "How Horror and FPS games can never work!"

I apologise if I sound ranty here (Or if I COMPLETELY missed the point. I do that. I'm getting old), and I appreciate that not all game genre's are for all people.

Also, thatnks for letting me know that HAWX is not the big revival I've been hoping for...

I don't know, maybe your points are valid. All I know is I've never had fun with any kind of flight sim until I played the HAWX demo. Next thing you know I'll find a racing game that I like (Mario Kart doesn't count).

Bartiism:
blah blah post.

sorry if you find it offensive, i just think people will read your first post.

HAWX is terrible, granted. The thought of only having one way of being able to survive [let alone KILL anything] is to have your camera zoom so far out you can hardly see your plane to orientate yourself in relation to your target is also horrible. but there are a few diamonds out there in my opinion, Ace Combat [though most people dont like it] is fair, not to mention Heros of the Pacific. its when you mash up two completely different ideas, throw in some "hey lookitoverhere:D" action sequences, and some bad spelling [HAWX, more like CO.....wait, its been done] that things start falling apart. I can understand flying around for 15 minutes waiting for a target to pop up and firing one shot and destroying it with relative ease can equal a boring game, but its also boring trying to line up for 15 minutes with an AI controlled plane that has you in a pseudo death loop, just to have his friends blast you away while your not looking. hopefully [not going to happen] HAWX will pull through and give a reason to get it for other players, but the demo did me in, i can only hope Mr. Clancy does NOT turn it into a book, or a movie [staring tom cruise, this summer..... HAWX: The Movie, directed by Uwe Boll]

Ionami:
I loved and STILL love Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. What a wicked game.

Those were the days! Remember playing Battle of Britain/Aces Over the Pacific/Red Baron. Good times.

Doug:
Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

Exactly. Getting close can be interesting, but in a modern "realist" air combat situation the pilot is looking to achieve kills with a minimum of effort - High G turns too many times make you blackout and die just as easily as an enemy missile.

EvilEngineNumberNine:
You've never seen the Su-42? Swept foreward wing design and canards coupled with thrust vectoring way back in 2002? ...May have been scrapped or buried for all I know.

EDIT: Also just because they may have aircraft parity does not necessarily mean they have weapons parity. I.E. AMRAAM > Sparrow

Do you mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47 ?

EvilEngineNumberNine:

You really think so huh? Trust me son, when two evenly matched nations are at war, the fighting is alot more than fire and forget missiles. ...

What!?

Just about every advance in guided munitions have been based around this very concept, the rapid acquistion and elmination of targets in the combat zone, which increases pilot survivabilty. There will never not be a need for close range weapon systems and training, but a modern fighter pilot is not only dealing with an air threat - he's also dealing with ground and sea based batteries targeting him (usually during a fight); and the best way to ensure survival is by engaging/winning at a longer range (like the F-14 and the AIM-54 Phoenix) and NOT dicking around at gun range.

You can not in my opinion draw black and white comparisons between WW1-2 dogfighting (although the principles of survival are relatively unchanged) with modern dogfighting. Tear out the radar, sparrows and sidewinders, and the computer assisted gun sight - then maybe LOL.

Da_Schwartz:

TheGreenManalishi:
Rogue Leader.

ugh really? me personally cant stand most lucas games. specially the rouge series. They are fun and all until you reach the brick wall impossible mission of flying some relic of a bomber through some tiny canyon at spastic crawling speed while fighting off 80 ties and dodging falling boulders. Gotta love lucas and it's brickwall levels.

Some levels are better than others, and half of the games appeal is that I bloody love the original trilogy of Star Wars.

Doug:
Modern combat sims don't really work - because modern air combat is "Detect enemy 250 km away" - "Target locked - Missile fired" - "Target destroyed". Realism, but not so entertaining.

Shucks, Modern air combat has its merits. Sure, a lot of it is "Engage radar, scan for targets, lock, fire", but that doesn't necessarily mean the end of your aircraft. Then there are also the ground threats, and naval threats. Lots of weaponry to play with, especially when you're flying an A-10, Su-25 (including Su-39), and the soon to arrive Su-34. LOMAC and Falcon 4 are both pretty awesome.

I prefer IL-2, though. None of those magic radar and missiles for me! Guns guns guns! Kaboom, took off your wing!

Ahem, oh yes, modern combat.. Well, apart from fixed wing aircraft, why not have a look at the rotary kind? More recent ones include the Enemy Engaged series (open source modifications available) and the just released DCS Black Shark. Loving them both.

do you think that a target stays still more than 2 secs in real life? NO so if its called a simulation game id call it dead acurate
and thats what hawx is dead acurate

I love ace combat 6. One of my favorite games. I hate that I can't use my microsoft joystick on my console. Ha what are those damn USB slots for then? Crimson Skies was a GREAT game. All around fun.

The most fun I ever had with flying was in Battlefield 1942. Not only was strafing and bombing little people on the ground immensely fun but dogfighting was fun, there were things to fly around like bridges and ships, and you had to pay attention AA guns from the ground and from ships. Even just goofing off in BF1942 was great, we used to try to fly through things like this bridge which has vertical supports so you had to rotate your plane at just the right time to fly through or flying between the decks on the Japanese aircraft carrier.

Regular flight simulators have always bored me but being able to jump into a plane and be in a realish battle environment was always a kick. Flying lost it for me in the Battlefield series after 1942, though, because planes were too fast to do anything but buzz people and fire a few rockets and helicopters are fun but it's just not the same.

Anoctris:

Do you mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47 ?

this!!!!! thank you!

EDIT: Also you'd have to be an idiot to believe that dogfighting is a thing of the past. That or egregiously misinformed. No one one's comparing modern fighter techniques to WWII dogfighting tactics (though most maneuvers still apply). Along with advanced in weapons technology come advances in countermeasures and stealthing. That an the we were kinda talking about army vs army fighting, not single fighter combat. Point on the ground based weapons taken though.

I enjoyed Wing Commander...

Granted it wasn't multiplayer really.

EvilEngineNumberNine:

Anoctris:

Do you mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47 ?

this!!!!! thank you!

EDIT: Also you'd have to be an idiot to believe that dogfighting is a thing of the past. That or egregiously misinformed. No one one's comparing modern fighter techniques to WWII dogfighting tactics (though most maneuvers still apply). Along with advanced in weapons technology come advances in countermeasures and stealthing. That an the we were kinda talking about army vs army fighting, not single fighter combat. Point on the ground based weapons taken though.

RE: Su-47
Yead it's weird looking isn't it, but I'm not sure if the new Russia will be able to foot the bill for full development/deployment. That said I'm a fan of the YF-23. :(

RE: Dogfighting
I didn't say dogfighting is a thing of the past, just that closing with the enemy to engage at that range in modern conventional warfare is extremely difficult considering the multitudes of weapon systems involved with destroying a target before that range can be reached.

Actually now that I've re-read your post I see what your original point was and I agree, 2 evenly armed nations would involve more than "lock-on,fire" combat, I just got annoyed at the - You really think so huh? Trust me son...- part. XP

Ace Combat 5 is actually one of my favorite games of all time. Its very immerse and has a rely good story and a superb soundtrack. It does have its moments where it seams unreasonably hard, but I think it works with the story, what with your squad being so good that your confused with gods. Good voice acting, hardly the best, but its not so bad that you have to mute the game. Witch was the problem with Ace Combat 6, ugh.

The ace combat games are not the most realistic flight Sims out their, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they're well designed and very fun.

I have a pilots license, and I'll tell you flying a airplane is not all fun, and Ace combat takes all the most fun bits and concentrates it.