How many combos do you actually use in Bayonetta?

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Phoenixmgs:

Lowering it to face another direction is easy and how it works in every other game (for example @ 2:55). I'm pretty sure you need even quicker controls when you're using a shield against human opponents with guns vs Souls much slower enemies. The dodge is easily the most efficient defensive tool in a Souls game. If you lower your shield between enemy hits, you'll have like full stamina to attack back with to the point I found shielding pretty broken because there's no risk plus you still have full stamina to hit back with, and I played a no strength dex character.

It's still easier and quicker to lock on if you need to focus on a duel. Rolling uses stamina and is riskier in that it often requires precise timing to avoid a hit.

This is ultimately looking like an agree to disagree issue.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
The lock-on does help. Of course you don't use it all the time.

You answered your own question. The player needs the face buttons so they can use items and dodge/run. That's why the lock-on is there. When I'm not using lock-on, I have to frequently use the claw grip on B/Circle. Because of the dense and claustrophobic environments, the camera is positioned too closely to your character for the game not to rely on lock-on. You keep saying lock-on is bad and archaic, but a Bayonetta-style camera wouldn't work at all in Dark Souls. Games like Bayonetta have big empty arenas, allowing the camera to be pretty distant. I have a feeling you're gonna bring up Dragon's Dogma again, but even that game has fairly open environments compared to Dark Souls.

Playing without a shield is easier if you've learned the timing. I know I would have had a harder time on my first Demon's Souls playthroughs without one.

I don't know why you keep bringing up a third-person stealth-action shooter like its controls would translate well to an action-RPG. I don't even remember a shield in MGS4 or how you control it. Turning with a shield is fine. One useful application is defending against multi-directional and unpredictable bolts, arrows and magic attacks as you progress through an environment. I've also defended against hordes that way, like the skeletons accompanying Gravelord Nito.

Again, why do you need to move the camera and face buttons at the same time? If you want to use an item, you sorta have decent separation from the enemy to heal, use magic, or an item. If you want to dodge, the camera isn't important anyways because you have the entire animation to adjust the camera. The only reason I even use the lock-on in a Souls game is for the different movement suite it offers, nothing else. In Bloodborne, you use lock-on even less, really just for the gun.

Because when you're not locked on and alternating between targets and dodging, you're moving around a dense three-dimensional space and watching your opponents, ready to lock on if needed, since fighting with lock-on is often easier.

hanselthecaretaker:

Phoenixmgs:

Lowering it to face another direction is easy and how it works in every other game (for example @ 2:55). I'm pretty sure you need even quicker controls when you're using a shield against human opponents with guns vs Souls much slower enemies. The dodge is easily the most efficient defensive tool in a Souls game. If you lower your shield between enemy hits, you'll have like full stamina to attack back with to the point I found shielding pretty broken because there's no risk plus you still have full stamina to hit back with, and I played a no strength dex character.

It's still easier and quicker to lock on if you need to focus on a duel. Rolling uses stamina and is riskier in that it often requires precise timing to avoid a hit.

This is ultimately looking like an agree to disagree issue.

I sorta said that using a shield has no risk and only has benefits (at least in a duel situation) as blocking doesn't require good timing really. It's kinda broken you could block attacks and have more stamina to attack back with than if you rolled, that's if you get good with blocking and timing your shield. My problem is how the shielding controls make fighting multiple enemies at once harder than it should be.

Ezekiel:
Because when you're not locked on and alternating between targets and dodging, you're moving around a dense three-dimensional space and watching your opponents, ready to lock on if needed, since fighting with lock-on is often easier.

Fighting in a duel situation is easier with lock-on due to the different movement suite it affords. I don't lock-on for the purpose of not needing to worry about the camera, I'm pretty sure that is most players too. I just don't get why you think controlling the camera manually is hard to do.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
Because when you're not locked on and alternating between targets and dodging, you're moving around a dense three-dimensional space and watching your opponents, ready to lock on if needed, since fighting with lock-on is often easier.

Fighting in a duel situation is easier with lock-on due to the different movement suite it affords. I don't lock-on for the purpose of not needing to worry about the camera, I'm pretty sure that is most players too. I just don't get why you think controlling the camera manually is hard to do.

I don't think I can explain the problem of having to alternate between face buttons and analogs to someone who uses the right stick with his left thumb. That's weird. Developers don't think about such uses when they design games.

Ezekiel:
I don't think I can explain the problem of having to alternate between face buttons and analogs to someone who uses the right stick with his left thumb. That's weird. Developers don't think about such uses when they design games.

That's only in one game that I do that. You never need to use a face button in the heat of battle besides for the dodge and then it's all about where you're dodging to, the camera doesn't matter. Once you decide the enemy is about to attack or that you're just plain in trouble and have to dodge, the camera location doesn't matter from that moment of decision to moving your thumb to the dodge button as you already decided "I'm out" and I need to relocate. You have the whole dodge animation to reorient the camera on the way to your new location. Using an estus flask or a spell or item, you want a decent amount of distance between you and the enemy to where the camera isn't too important (as you have a wider view of the enemy) vs when you're within melee distance of the enemy. You even want to get a couple quick dodges back in Bloodborne to use a much faster blood vial let alone the much longer estus flask animation.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
I don't think I can explain the problem of having to alternate between face buttons and analogs to someone who uses the right stick with his left thumb. That's weird. Developers don't think about such uses when they design games.

That's only in one game that I do that. You never need to use a face button in the heat of battle besides for the dodge and then it's all about where you're dodging to, the camera doesn't matter. Once you decide the enemy is about to attack or that you're just plain in trouble and have to dodge, the camera location doesn't matter from that moment of decision to moving your thumb to the dodge button as you already decided "I'm out" and I need to relocate. You have the whole dodge animation to reorient the camera on the way to your new location. Using an estus flask or a spell or item, you want a decent amount of distance between you and the enemy to where the camera isn't too important (as you have a wider view of the enemy) vs when you're within melee distance of the enemy. You even want to get a couple quick dodges back in Bloodborne to use a much faster blood vial let alone the much longer estus flask animation.

Inefficient.

Ezekiel:
Inefficient.

So adjusting the camera during an animation, which you can't do anything else during that time, is inefficient? That pretty much seems like the opposite of the what the definition of inefficient is.

It seems like you have camera issues that really no one else does. Up the camera sensitivity because higher is better while being literally more efficient. The camera issue complained about by far the most with Souls games is the lock-on camera.

^ It's just perplexing to have such an issue with a lock-on shield mechanic, yet at the same time think nothing of having to constantly twerk the camera around with an opposing thumb. It cues the irony in finding it odd that Souls is the only series designed with a lock-on specific moveset.

hanselthecaretaker:
^ It's just perplexing to have such an issue with a lock-on shield mechanic, yet at the same time think nothing of having to constantly twerk the camera around with an opposing thumb. It cues the irony in finding it odd that Souls is the only series designed with a lock-on specific moveset.

Constantly is quite a bit of an overstatement. And, it doesn't make the game harder to play. Sure, I'd prefer not having to hold X to cover swap so my right thumb is free to move the camera like how the box slide in MGS5 works, it's basically Ghost Recons cover swap but not needing cover basically. However, it doesn't inhibit my ability to play the game and do what I want when I want to like the shield controls of a Souls game. Ghost Recons cover swap moves require more execution than necessary but they don't actually inhibit me from doing things like Souls controls. I hope that makes sense as it's kinda hard to explain.

It's like that video where that Matthewmatosis guy was wanting to be able to strafe and backstep while keeping 2 enemies in view. If you didn't need lock-on to change movement, he would've been able to play how he liked. The controls actually inhibited him from doing what he wanted to to.

Phoenixmgs:

hanselthecaretaker:
^ It's just perplexing to have such an issue with a lock-on shield mechanic, yet at the same time think nothing of having to constantly twerk the camera around with an opposing thumb. It cues the irony in finding it odd that Souls is the only series designed with a lock-on specific moveset.

Constantly is quite a bit of an overstatement. And, it doesn't make the game harder to play. Sure, I'd prefer not having to hold X to cover swap so my right thumb is free to move the camera like how the box slide in MGS5 works, it's basically Ghost Recons cover swap but not needing cover basically. However, it doesn't inhibit my ability to play the game and do what I want when I want to like the shield controls of a Souls game. Ghost Recons cover swap moves require more execution than necessary but they don't actually inhibit me from doing things like Souls controls. I hope that makes sense as it's kinda hard to explain.

It's like that video where that Matthewmatosis guy was wanting to be able to strafe and backstep while keeping 2 enemies in view. If you didn't need lock-on to change movement, he would've been able to play how he liked. The controls actually inhibited him from doing what he wanted to to.

Well, for whatever reason, the developers thought it was better to retain full freedom of movement while shielding with an option to lock on for duels than to be locked into a certain restrictive moveset once you raise your shield.

Blighttown is a good example of why. There were several times where I would've been poisoned if I had to lower my shield to face another direction and bring it back up again. Those darts are simply faster, and rolling or dodging as an alternative in that type of environment is a death wish.

hanselthecaretaker:
Blighttown is a good example of why. There were several times where I would've been poisoned if I had to lower my shield to face another direction and bring it back up again. Those darts are simply faster, and rolling or dodging as an alternative in that type of environment is a death wish.

Can't you go through Blighttown, I guess, "properly" with the dart guys always being in front of you? I forget exact details how I navigated the area besides for finding my favorite weapon, the Iaito, there and just being very very careful. Hell, I kept running out of the area after getting hit by what appeared to be nothing because I was actually playing the area initially while hanging out at a friends on a freaking 13" SDTV and I had no clue what was going on. The dart guys might be literally the only example where the shield controls worked out for the better.

Dude, you can play the game however you like - you can even kill some enemies by shooting them from afar, but don't expect the game to pat you on the back for that. Learning the mechanics (which includes varying your combos, never getting hit, and not using any health items) is essential for getting platinum rankings. If you just want to 'beat' the game, then spam the same stuff to your heart's content, but don't blame the devs for the fact that you refuse to get good. :) Too bad, really, cause Bayo becomes an exhilarating experience once you master the combat.

Still better than Vanquish.

I'm surprised this was resurrected. Are old threads no longer locked? That would be nice.

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