So that whole "female main characters don't sell" bullshit

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MrFalconfly:

erttheking:

MrFalconfly:

I drew that conclusion from people complaining about "female main characters" amongst the playerbase, not necessarily the publishers (because there are people in that group too who sometimes "complain" about female characters, and say that they don't "sell well").

Regarding the devs and the publishers.

They usually only react to hard, cold numbers.

If game A sells better than game B, and the only appreciable difference between them are the gender of main character, then of cause they're bloody going to conclude that a certain gender wont sell.

For example, let's compare Horizon: Zero Dawn, the current Playstation exclusive, to Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, the previous Playstation exclusive.

Uncharted sold 4.93 million copies globally.

Horizon sold 2.55 million copies globally.

If you just look at numbers (like I suspect the publishers are), it's easy to conclude that "female main characters don't sell". Whether that's a fair assessment is an entirely different issue.

EDIT:
Also, I generally don't assume people are stupid.

But if they act stupid (even just for comedic effect), or they do stupid things (like suggesting "giving too much credit", to try and stifle discussion), I'm going to call them stupid.

You do realize you're compared the lifetime sales of a very old game to the two week sales of a brand new game right? How is that a fair comparison? Also you said only appreciative difference. There's a hell of a lot more difference between Uncharted and Hirizon than the gender of the character

Oh l'm not respecting the opinions of out of touch executives. I'm soooooooo stupid. Don't patronize me.

Yes I do.

Also, I'm not comparing those numbers. The Publishers are. Big difference. I'm just explaining how the conclusion is made from their point of view.

As for your last quip.

If you don't respect the opinions of, as you call them, "out of touch executives", they're sure as shit not gonna respect yours.

Don't expect to get any levelheaded discourse, if you aren't even willing to actually put yourself in their seat, and see through their eyes. I don't expect you to agree, only to understand their methods.

Through that understanding, it becomes much easier to get them to change their minds.

EDIT:
Honestly, I have no dog in this fight.

I just want to play good games. I have no interest in what gender my character has, as long as the gameplay is tight, the character is likeable, and the story is good.

I just want to help you achieve your goal (getting publishers to realise that female characters WILL sell), and the way you're doing it here, ain't it.

Ok. You say you don't respect my opinion because I think they're stuck I'd. Then you'd say they'd do something that even I that even i think isn't cutting them enough slack. So...you say I need to understand their views and not dismiss them as out of touch, then claim that they would do something so short sighted and stupid that even I wouldn't criticize them of doing? I just...don't know what you're trying to say.

Respect is earned, not given. After all the damage they've done to my favorite medium, they've far from earned it.

erttheking:

MrFalconfly:

erttheking:

You do realize you're compared the lifetime sales of a very old game to the two week sales of a brand new game right? How is that a fair comparison? Also you said only appreciative difference. There's a hell of a lot more difference between Uncharted and Hirizon than the gender of the character

Oh l'm not respecting the opinions of out of touch executives. I'm soooooooo stupid. Don't patronize me.

Yes I do.

Also, I'm not comparing those numbers. The Publishers are. Big difference. I'm just explaining how the conclusion is made from their point of view.

As for your last quip.

If you don't respect the opinions of, as you call them, "out of touch executives", they're sure as shit not gonna respect yours.

Don't expect to get any levelheaded discourse, if you aren't even willing to actually put yourself in their seat, and see through their eyes. I don't expect you to agree, only to understand their methods.

Through that understanding, it becomes much easier to get them to change their minds.

EDIT:
Honestly, I have no dog in this fight.

I just want to play good games. I have no interest in what gender my character has, as long as the gameplay is tight, the character is likeable, and the story is good.

I just want to help you achieve your goal (getting publishers to realise that female characters WILL sell), and the way you're doing it here, ain't it.

Ok. You say you don't respect my opinion because I think they're stuck. Then you'd say they'd do something that even i think isn't cutting them enough slack. So...you say I need to understand their views and not dismiss them as out of touch, then claim that they would do something so short sighted and stupid that even I wouldn't criticize them of doing? I just...don't know what you're trying to say.

Respect is earned, not given. After all the damage they've done to my favorite medium, they've far from earned it.

I tried to fix a few of what I assumed was mobile auto-correct induced spelling errors (please correct them, if I was wrong).

Let's go through them, point by point.

1) You say you don't respect my opinion because I think they're stuck.

I said, "Maybe, however, just because they're stupid doesn't give you carte blanche to be stupid.".

That isn't "not respecting your opinion". That's rejecting a straw man, because I don't think one side behaving badly gives the other side carte blanch to follow suit.

2) Then you'd say they'd do something that even i think isn't cutting them enough slack.

Not sure of what you're talking about here. Can you give an example?

3) So...you say I need to understand their views and not dismiss them as out of touch, then claim that they would do something so short sighted and stupid that even I wouldn't criticize them of doing?

Yes, I did say you should understand their reasoning (not their views, their reasoning). I however never made a claim that they'd do anything (at the most, I've made observations of their actions).

4) I just...don't know what you're trying to say.

Easy.

Before you label someone as "out of touch" anythings, analyse the situation from their point of view, possibly with their reasoning, and then erect a counterpoint using their reasoning.

"Respect is earned, not given. After all the damage they've done to my favorite medium, they've far from earned it."

The issue is, you aren't giving them any reason to listen to you.

MrFalconfly:
Snip

Yeah, auto-correct typo. Meant to say stupid. And you've yet to convince me that I'm stupid.

You basically said that they would use the information of Horizon selling 2.6 million copies even though it's just out and, even as I type out those words, those numbers are out of date. I think they're stupid and even I know they'd put in more research than that.

You'd said that they'll compare a game that has been out for years with a game that has been out for nowhere near as long.

Ok, I took a look at things from their point of view. They're out of touch. Assuming that they think this. After all, this is me calling back to something that happened a few years ago. The idea that women can't sell copies is something that has no real basis in reality, due to how well Horizon is selling. I mean its pretty much made its budget back already, who knows how much it'll make in the long run.

They already have a reason to listen to me. They want my money. Haven't exactly bought an Ubisoft game in awhile. The one exception was Rainbow Six Siege. And guess what that had in it? Playable ladies.

I thought that we had already established that executives are absolutely retarded. Seriously, look at Dead Space 3, look at it's sales, then look at EA's reaction.

tippy2k2:
I'm probably going to regret this buuuuuut....

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in real life make that argument. It always seems like it's your "Racist Uncle" argument (you know, the "Black people have smaller brains than white people! It's not racist, it's science!!!!") that no one actually says as a real argument.

At best, it feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy by game makers (like how horror games were a dead genre) that they just kind of decided on at some point.

I'm on team "if the game is good, I will buy it" myself. I never had any problems playing a black man in Telltale's Walking Dead, a woman in Tomb Raider, or a badass space marine in Doom, even though I am none of those things in real life...

I'm in total agreement.

I think there is an element of truth to the "games with female protagonists" don't sell well, but I don't think they don't sell well BECAUSE they have a female protagonists. It's more that these games aren't part of a long-established, familiar franchise, or other such reasons.

I think that, at most, games with non-customizable female protagonists don't MARKET as well in advertisements. Advertising is largely appealing to the subconscious, which is why I think its more appealing to the hardcore gaming target audience to have a male protagonist in the promotional material - even if barely anyone actually outwardly cares about the gender of their avatar.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't buy a game just because it has a female lead and I can't imagine there are many out there. Who said this? I've heard it before and I never found out who brought it up. And is there any REAL research for this topic?

I'm not joining any witch hunt though. If there is a legit reason I would actually be interested to know. I'd imagine games with male leads would have sold more because there are just more of them in more well known franchises that aren't niche at all. So maybe over time if these games get sequels that are persistent in quality then we can make a more accurate assessment then.

For what's it worth, I bought Nier Automata mostly because I wanted to put my penis into 2B, and you can destroy her skirt with the self-destruct module.

Horizon: Zero Dawn? Stronk womyn protagonist who don't need no man? No way in hell I'm buying that.

If I'm not buying a game for fetishistic value, I'm not going to buy a game with a female protagonist. I simply relate to male characters more. I mean, it's not like anyone bought Xtreme Beach Volleyball 3 or Senran Kagura for the strong female protagonists, they bought them because they were cock-pleasers.

If you want games with female leads to sell, make them sexy. It's what Lara Croft coasted on for most of her series, after all. If she looked like Nadine from Uncharted, Eidos would've closed after the first game.

erttheking:

Then every single game made aside from COD doesn't sell well. Seriously, name five series that pull in those kinds of numbers on each installment

Everything Blizzard makes.

Every WoW Expansion
Overwatch
Diablo 3
Starcraft

Non-Blizzard:
Battlefield
Grand Theft Auto

Anyway OT, I think that the female lead thing is a fucking cop out. Of course Female led games don't sell as well, but it's because they aren't pillars of the gaming industry levels of games. Look at any of the big sells games. Halo, GTA, COD, they aren't selling billions because it's raining men, they sell well because they are established and good (mostly). Not to mention they all have a persistent gameplay loop.

Name me one female-led game that has infinite progression. The biggest selling games in the industry right now all have an endless online component. It's what makes these games so big. COD fans can get 1 game very year and play it endlessly until next year's version comes out. That's how it works. And you have to remember that 99% of the gaming player base doesn't have it's ear to the ground when it comes to new games coming out. Most people buy 1 or 2 games a YEAR, and play them until the wheels fall off or a sequel comes out.

CoCage:

I am black and usually don't mind what race/gender the characters is just as long as the game is good. But even if the game is good, a character can be written horribly. That is why I do not like CJ from San Andreas or Nilin from Remember Me. Though San Andreas I did not like gameplay wise in general. I do appreciate if the character is the same race as me and well written. The same applies if the character is a different gender or race from me.

Just out of curiosity, what did you find horribly written about CJ? I thought he was alright...don't know if I'd call him "likeable" at the end of the day, dude does some pretty horrific things by the end, but he always tried to do the right thing, (for a GTA protagonist) and I don't /remember/ any glaring issues with the way his character was written but then it has been some time. Or was he just a little too stereotypical, given the gangbanger motif?

elvor0:

Just out of curiosity, what did you find horribly written about CJ? I thought he was alright...don't know if I'd call him "likeable" at the end of the day, dude does some pretty horrific things by the end, but he always tried to do the right thing, (for a GTA protagonist) and I don't /remember/ any glaring issues with the way his character was written but then it has been some time. Or was he just a little too stereotypical, given the gangbanger motif?

Partially the gangbanger motif, but it was this weird dissonance. CJ claimed to be doing the right things "fer da hood", but obviously by the half way point, this is not the case, and is in it mainly for the money and power. The narration does not seem to acklowledge this, and we'r supposed to root him, when is defintely not much better than his enemies by that point. Say what you will about Claude or Tommy, but at least the motives were mostly clear and consistent and acknowledge. Claude wanted revenge, and Tommy wanted money, and then revenge.

I appreciate the shout-outs for Boyz n Da Hood, Menace II Society (you'll never see me watch that again), Juice, and New Jersey Drive that Rockstar did, but overall San Andreas and CJ did not do it for me. Funny enough, Frank from GTAV is what CJ should have been.

I don't think "people" think that, i think the horrifying soulless blob that is the gaming industries focus-test-loving analyst teams think that based on a very ill-conceived and senseless attempt to pander to everyone at once.

As much as I'd like to believe that you're right, I'm not sure there's nearly enough here to do so.

I think the step to assuming near industry-wide ignorance and/or incompetence is a pretty big one. I can't shake the feeling that maybe people who do this for a living might know a thing or two, and that I might not.

Something that I could muster up given slithers of information in isolation and the "it doesn't matter to my friends" kind of anecdotal evidence would probably be lacking in any real value.

All to do with the writing. And that extends to TV and movies as well. If you write a bad character, male or female it's not gonna be fun. Especially if it's a main character.
image

Honestly, I don't think it's really worth complaining about one way or another, not anymore. At this point most western developers are aware that female leads won't make any significant impact on sales, and many of them have embraced the demand for female PCs/protagonists. We're getting more female leads per year than ever before, and I don't see that trend slowing down.

Japanese devs are another issue entirely, but we honestly don't have much sway there. Most only really care about the Japanese demographic as far as appeal goes, and very few devs have an ear to the ground regarding feedback from the west.

Bedinsis:
snip

Oh hey took a bit to see this. Sorry.

And you're right there are other conclusions. And the big one is that female leads don't sell. Let us only cater to teenage-college males that like twitchy shooters. We'll make money that way.

The above is how I see some CEOs or those in charge of funding saying or thinking. There's too many factors, some which you brought up, to simply say that Remember Me sold badly due to X reason. But the whole 'females don't sell' is a self fulling idea as long as the test groups are CoD kiddies or Frat boys. Or even just guys that go "no girls allowed" or some bs. Because we know they exist.

Likewise there's a number of factors as to why the named games in the OP sold. I myself haven't played either game but one factor I would suggest is that it's due to them being Sandbox games. It's the new Platformer/Shooter. Even the 'meh' ones tend to sell well these days and it's the game type that hack devs also try to sell to. These days it seems hard not to make some cash back on a Sandbox game.

I hear there was a time when people used to pop the champagne when 200k copies were sold.
Nowadays, 3 million is considered "disappointing".

I tend to prefer playing as a female character in RPGs when the option is offered. As a male character I usually end up making the choices I would make in that situation. PLaying as a female makes me think on how they'd be reacting in that situation.

What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.

We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.

In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.

Smacks of a massive strawman argument. Lara Croft has sold well for decades. People are not saying in real life that female leads don't sell. Just shittily written female leads.

You got jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Samus and a bunch more I can't think of.
The trolls and alt right types don't count as they are just being cunts for the sake of being cunts.

Saelune:
I think this is a case of false equivalence, or whatever its called. I think the protagonist's gender is a low priority for most gamers. I dont doubt some people decide based on it, but I do doubt it was enough to matter.

Yeah like to be real this thread was nailed on the front page.

It's just marketing that assumes Grizzled White Male when Brown hair will sell better BECAUSE of that character template, but they're playing themselves, cause if all the good games happen to have that character preset then of course all the sales will indicate that.

I play so much good stuff with female protagonists and there's heaps of great games.

I hate that discussions like this exist, not because I think it's a dumb conversation to have, but because I find it stupid that there probably are some people that won't buy a game cause "i'm not playing as a girl LOL, FUK DAT SHIT".

Ezekiel:

hanselthecaretaker:
Tomb Raider has always done pretty well, and that's been for decades.

If it's always done pretty well, they wouldn't have had to reboot it twice and turn it into a bloodthirsty shooter.

Let's be fair though- has anything ever really needed a reboot before getting one anyway?

Jerast:
I hate that discussions like this exist, not because I think it's a dumb conversation to have, but because I find it stupid that there probably are some people that won't buy a game cause "i'm not playing as a girl LOL, FUK DAT SHIT".

It could be simpler. A person can view that a game with a female protagonist was not made for them and then just pick some other game - usually there are plenty of options.

I don't know what else to say other than agreeing with you, Erttheking. Some people are either stupid in decision-making, focusing too much on what will make the most money for them, or both. :/

Main character genders, I would say, are not a super significant part of whether a game sells. And I doubt anyone would say "there can be a near perfect video game that plays really well, but if it has a female main character it's GOING TO TANK". No one has said that.

Yet the OP seems to go on that argument, and there's a term for that, which is strawmanning.

But strawmen aside, it's mostly the genre, marketing and reception that decide whether a game sells or not. Going for female or male main character nowadays, from a publisher standpoint, relies on current trends and group psychology. Consumers tend to get bored of the same stuff all the time: if the mainstream games of the last 2 years have all had male main characters, a female MC can make some difference in sales due to being a "novel" concept. Otherwise, male MCs cater most to the action video game demographic.

I don't agree with this. I would rather give full liberty of expression to the designers' vision, but it's the reality we live in. You sign up under a publisher, you expect them to focus on the science of getting money and making your customers happy. Not all of them, but most of them. Those who fall under the group of people who are most likely to buy your game.

There are great games with female characters. Sometimes a developer will push for a specific gender on their MC despite the publisher's wishes, and sometimes the publisher will agree in order to give the impression they care. The reality is games are made based on the prediction of what the audience will want when the game comes out, which means if a lot of games predict the same thing the audience will be flooded and saturated with similar titles and themes. This can cause a cycle where the new quickly becomes old, and what was old is new again.

Horizon is not a really good example. As a famous reviewer here once said, (paraphrasing) fanboys will buy anything as long as it's an exclusive.
And a couple hits don't take away the fact that the best selling games of all time have male protagonists (or female protagonists with ridiculous proportions). Now that the PC police is at full force, they put every color of the skin/gender/sexual preference as side characters to avoid bad press, but I doubt they'll go beyond that.

And why would it matter anyway? Just give me a good story and the chance to curb stomp dudes, and I'm a happy man, even if I'm using a furry as PC.

It's a hold over from the eighties actually. WHere it was actually fairly true. I suppose it goes back to the gaming demographic at the time. You saw a product with boxart that prominently featured a girl it was likely a product meant for girls. and in Vid games, them pattern continued., Look at the nesw library and pick out the games with boxart prominently featureing a female character.

Hello again, sorry for the interruption, but I think my spirited language may have brought on the wrath of the mods.

I'll try to bring it down a peg or two.

erttheking:

MrFalconfly:
Snip

Yeah, auto-correct typo. Meant to say stupid. And you've yet to convince me that I'm stupid.

I don't want to convince you that you're stupid. Far from it. If anything I only wanted to help you not doing yourself a disservice. You seem like a nice person.

erttheking:

You basically said that they would use the information of Horizon selling 2.6 million copies even though it's just out and, even as I type out those words, those numbers are out of date. I think they're stupid and even I know they'd put in more research than that.

And yes, I am saying that, to paraphrase, and while there's probably more variables in the equation than just looking at current numbers, and adjusting projections, that is a method that is consistent with their conclusions in the past. I'm not saying that what they're doing is correct (far from it), I'm only describing their analytical methods (in general terms).

erttheking:

You'd said that they'll compare a game that has been out for years with a game that has been out for nowhere near as long.

Kinda. They'll probably use current sales figures, together with time on the market to project an estimated final sales figure, which they then compare to a confirmed final sales figure of a prior product.

erttheking:

Ok, I took a look at things from their point of view. They're out of touch. Assuming that they think this. After all, this is me calling back to something that happened a few years ago. The idea that women can't sell copies is something that has no real basis in reality, due to how well Horizon is selling. I mean its pretty much made its budget back already, who knows how much it'll make in the long run.

Never said they necessarily weren't "out of touch".

What I said was, just saying to them that they're "out of touch" doesn't really help you promoting your own side, or get them to see the merits of your side.

You don't have to convince me. I'm already on board. You need to convince them.

erttheking:

They already have a reason to listen to me. They want my money. Haven't exactly bought an Ubisoft game in awhile. The one exception was Rainbow Six Siege. And guess what that had in it? Playable ladies.

Yeah, they want you money, but not at the cost of other people's money.

They don't necessarily want to trade two of their current buyers, for one of you. This is where your skills in argumentation comes in, because you (and I) need to get them to see that, there's a way where they can get us on board without loosing any of their current buyers.

2B doesn't even come close to being the protagonist of Automata.

I'm going to wait to see sales in a few months for this game before I make an assessment of this game's success. If things are still sitting at around 3 million, then the game has performed extremely mediocre, especially for a PS4 exclusive that was hyped up so much.

I don't have a problem with female protagonists, but I don't like this sudden push for "feminism" in video games. Most AAA gamers are men, so it seems pretty futile that these gaming companies are trying to reach a demographic that doesn't exist.

I kind of thought Ms. Pacman was always that proof since you always see more Ms. Pacman Machines that Pacman

Whole idea that main character's gender is key factor for game's sales is absurd.

Reeks of morons from marketing getting report from data analysts where in one place is mentioned that main character and identification whith main character's struggles and motives were important part of enjoyment and engagement to customers. Then in another piece of study where customers were asked which characters they'd identify with from presented, majority picked males.
Finally drawing conclusion that majority of their customers being male, who pointed it was important for them to get a good grip on character motives and who pointed toward male characters as ones they can identify with means that... they don't want female protagonists...

votemarvel:
I tend to prefer playing as a female character in RPGs when the option is offered. As a male character I usually end up making the choices I would make in that situation. PLaying as a female makes me think on how they'd be reacting in that situation.

What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.

We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.

In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

I actually kinda prefer female characters in games. I'm not entirely sure why. I'm sure that there are many reasons for that. I don't always do it. In Mass Effect I played with default male Shepard and in Dragon Age Origins I played first time with a male human and only on subsequent playthroughs I tried a female character. But most of the time I just go with the female character. It's more interesting.

KissingSunlight:
I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

Yet denying that people are different isn't equality either.

Playing as Axel in Streets of Rage II provides a different experience to playing as Blaze, or Max, or Skate. There is a reason to play through as these different characters because you can't play the game in the exact same way.

Play Mass Effect 2 however and the gameplay is the same whether you pick male or female Shepard, you don't have to vary your play style at all. Once you've picked your choice of Shepard there is little reason to go back through as the other.

Play Left 4 Dead and what is the difference between playing as Zoey or Bill? There is no game play difference at all.

I admit my point is simply related to game where you have a choice of character, to me that choice becomes worthless if the game plays the same no matter who you pick.

votemarvel:

KissingSunlight:
I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

Yet denying that people are different isn't equality either.

Playing as Axel in Streets of Rage II provides a different experience to playing as Blaze, or Max, or Skate. There is a reason to play through as these different characters because you can't play the game in the exact same way.

Play Mass Effect 2 however and the gameplay is the same whether you pick male or female Shepard, you don't have to vary your play style at all. Once you've picked your choice of Shepard there is little reason to go back through as the other.

Play Left 4 Dead and what is the difference between playing as Zoey or Bill? There is no game play difference at all.

I admit my point is simply related to game where you have a choice of character, to me that choice becomes worthless if the game plays the same no matter who you pick.

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

KissingSunlight:
I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

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