Injustice 2 really triggers my feminism. There, I said it.

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Zhukov:
Well, the gear system leaves the half-naked part up to you, if that helps as all.

There is a very good chance that the gear system doesn't help any.

Ogoid:
I don't really have a dog in this particular fight, but as far as the American comics industry being "sexist"?

I'd suggest that anyone who actually believes that google certain Italian comic artists, like Guido Crepax, Paolo Eleuteri Serpieri, Milo Manara, Nik Guerra, Giovanna Casotto, Cristina Fabris, Apollonia Saintclair or Rosita Amici, and keep in mind comics in Italy are held in as much respect as any other art form.

*psst* Don't mention Milo Manara to American feminist comic fans.

Kerg3927:

I said in a later post that "flaunting" was too strong of a word. How about "display?" Anyway, I don't think there is any question that the majority of women, especially young women, usually take steps before leaving the house to increase their attractiveness, whether it's to put on makeup, decide what to wear, etc. Guys do the same thing, minus the makeup. Also, all those young people working out in gyms around the world aren't doing it primarily for cardiovascular health. They're in there busting their ass because they want to make themselves look good.

Right, yes, but the majority of people do not go to gyms, and the majority of those who do are not so self-absorbed that they're intending to display their assets on every trip outside the house. Maybe when they're headed to a club; not so much when they're picking up groceries. Looking halfway respectable might be on the list; looking sexy at all times is not. That's unrealistic and tunnel-visioned. That's not how most real people act, outside of a certain bubble.

Kerg3927:

I also don't think there is any question that Bioware, for whatever reason, intentionally made Sara Rider look much uglier than the model. They also intentionally made the Asari race look much less attractive than they were in the original trilogy. I wouldn't necessarily call that conspiracy theory. It's just simple observation. The only other explanation I can think of is artist incompetence, and I doubt that was the case with Bioware's resources.

No, the other-- rational-- explanation is that there is very often a disconnect between the character and the model, and that perhaps looking super-sexy wasn't top of their priorities. And why should it be?

The notion of intentionally making them ugly for political reasons is... well, just take a step back and review that notion. It is utterly absurd. It's based on nothing solid or substantial at all. Some people think a model is prettier than the video game character that was partially based on them. That's literally all it took for people to jump to the conclusion that they don't want hawt women there for political reasons they never expressed? It really is utterly hilarious.

SirSullymore:

Ogoid:
I don't really have a dog in this particular fight, but as far as the American comics industry being "sexist"?

I'd suggest that anyone who actually believes that google certain Italian comic artists, like Guido Crepax, Paolo Eleuteri Serpieri, Milo Manara, Nik Guerra, Giovanna Casotto, Cristina Fabris, Apollonia Saintclair or Rosita Amici, and keep in mind comics in Italy are held in as much respect as any other art form.

*psst* Don't mention Milo Manara to American feminist comic fans.

Off-topic, but I'm a feminist and I have zero issues with Manara.

Milo Manara draws explicit porn of idealized women (who all have the same body and the same face). That's what he does.

Americans apparently didn't know that when they had asked him to draw a superhero comic book cover.

nomotog:

Zhukov:
Well, the gear system leaves the half-naked part up to you, if that helps as all.

There is a very good chance that the gear system doesn't help any.

I've been watching a fair bit of gameplay (for some reason I like watching games in genres that I don't like playing, no idea why) and there's enough variety in the available costumes that I could actually see people being able to customize away character designs that they find problematic or just plain ugly.

Either way, just trying to be helpful.

When it comes to feminism what really is the standard for there is alot self proclaimed feminist out there who get triggered by sexual exploitation in media but are fine with it in other ways. An example of this is Nature Guardian is fine with the avatar with big tits or emma watson putting her stuff out on a cover the list goes on. Another thing is thing is comics tend to evolve with society why do you think joker went from a mobster to a gangster? It what sells to the core audience not a triggered feminist or a father who would love to a play superhero game with there daughter but dont want to explain why there fighting in there underwear.

Nature Guardian:

SirSullymore:

Ogoid:
I don't really have a dog in this particular fight, but as far as the American comics industry being "sexist"?

I'd suggest that anyone who actually believes that google certain Italian comic artists, like Guido Crepax, Paolo Eleuteri Serpieri, Milo Manara, Nik Guerra, Giovanna Casotto, Cristina Fabris, Apollonia Saintclair or Rosita Amici, and keep in mind comics in Italy are held in as much respect as any other art form.

*psst* Don't mention Milo Manara to American feminist comic fans.

Off-topic, but I'm a feminist and I have zero issues with Manara.

Milo Manara draws explicit porn of idealized women (who all have the same body and the same face). That's what he does.

Americans apparently didn't know that when they had asked him to draw a superhero comic book cover.

Cheers! Sorry about the generalization, just not a fan of campaigns for banning things. I feel the same about the SJW's are ruining comics! crowd.

What a complicated world we live in. No matter though, for one day we might all be androids.

Nature Guardian:

Satinavian:

Nature Guardian:
I understand this isn't just Netherrealms but an issue in the comic book industry.

Comics are not the same as video games. Other audience, other cultural implications, completely different priorities for designing characters. And a long history with lots of baggage.

You are complaining about comic designs originating decades ago. Yes, comic book industry was incredibly pretty sexist at certain times. And yes, licensed games with all time favorite characters will still show some of the baggage attached.

Actually, no.

Yes, the comic industry was very sexist.
Now however things are changing, so why is this videogame applying certain standards that became old and sexist 20 years ago?

Because they licensed to use well known, established characters that are decades old, not to use new ones.

The gamer demographic is older than the comic demographic. You might have noticed how a lot of the franchises that get licensed games now were really popular with teens 10-30 years ago. It is fishing for nostalgia and old happy childhood memories. Of course the younger readers are still important that is why stuff that it is still somewhat ongoing will far more likely get into the game than designs that have been completely dormant for at least 10 years. But you will also rarely see new additions to the comic universes make it into games because those can't be recognized by the old gamers.

And why was Injustice somehow way less sexist-seeming than Injustice 2?

Haven't played that one either. Can't even say if that statement is actually true or just your perception. If true, can't guess at the reason.

the only difference I see between I1 and I2 female characters is that I2 has more females... but it still doesn't have Batgirl so I'm mad.
I don't see any sexist things or things that are out of place, Poison Ivy is supposed to be sexy and tries to use her beauty and some pheromone manipulation to seduce her opponents double that for Catwoman! They've always done that in the comics. The other women seem more like generic female warrior A through Z.

Which characters in particular bother you? Maybe you're seeing something that I don't

and please don't say Starfire, she is meant to be a sex symbol, she always was. Teen Titans was just a kid friendly version of her not the actual Starfire we've all known and love from the Teen Titans comic books

go-10:
the only difference I see between I1 and I2 female characters is that I2 has more females... but it still doesn't have Batgirl so I'm mad.
I don't see any sexist things or things that are out of place, Poison Ivy is supposed to be sexy and tries to use her beauty and some pheromone manipulation to seduce her opponents double that for Catwoman! They've always done that in the comics. The other women seem more like generic female warrior A through Z.

Which characters in particular bother you? Maybe you're seeing something that I don't

and please don't say Starfire, she is meant to be a sex symbol, she always was. Teen Titans was just a kid friendly version of her not the actual Starfire we've all known and love from the Teen Titans comic books

Ok so here's the thing.... Ivy? But she has always been a seductress! Catwoman? She has always been seducing her opponents! Starfire? Please don't say Starfire, she is a sex symbol!

This justification is the kind of awkward excuses that appear when there's a list of objectified female characters.

And let's not even mention Canary the pantsless wonder, or Wonder Woman and Cheetah's buttcheeks zooming.

If anything, teen titans proved you do not need to make "sex fantasy" the key element of the heroine. Injustice 2 could have made Catwoman and even Starfire into cool heroines. Because them being sex fantasies is NOT what really makes them.

Out of the male cast, ONLY Aquaman wears a skin-showing outfit..... and it doesn't matter anyway, because he doesn't act sexy and sultry and the camera doesn't zoom on his buttcheeks.

Batman? But he has always used seduction to lure criminals! Superman? But please he is a sex symbol, he is called Superman! Green Arrow? He's a scoundrel, being seductive is part of his identity.

Satinavian:

Nature Guardian:

Satinavian:
Comics are not the same as video games. Other audience, other cultural implications, completely different priorities for designing characters. And a long history with lots of baggage.

You are complaining about comic designs originating decades ago. Yes, comic book industry was incredibly pretty sexist at certain times. And yes, licensed games with all time favorite characters will still show some of the baggage attached.

Actually, no.

Yes, the comic industry was very sexist.
Now however things are changing, so why is this videogame applying certain standards that became old and sexist 20 years ago?

Because they licensed to use well known, established characters that are decades old, not to use new ones.

Really? So why isn't Batman doing sound effects images when attacking and why is Robin not wearing only his underwear?

No, apparently the only thing that hasn't changed in 60 years of comics, and was worth preserving, is the sexism.

Nature Guardian:

Really? So why isn't Batman doing sound effects images when attacking and why is Robin not wearing only his underwear?

No, apparently the only thing that hasn't changed in 60 years of comics, and was worth preserving, is the sexism.

Because i said 10 to 30 years. Stuff that is even older is too old for video gamers. Gamers beyond 50 are outside of the scope.

Satinavian:

Nature Guardian:

Really? So why isn't Batman doing sound effects images when attacking and why is Robin not wearing only his underwear?

No, apparently the only thing that hasn't changed in 60 years of comics, and was worth preserving, is the sexism.

Because i said 10 to 30 years. Stuff that is even older is too old for video gamers. Gamers beyond 50 are outside of the scope.

Oh come on. "Thirty years ago sexism was ok. So that new game should be sexist because it has characters that were sexist 30 years ago".

maninahat:
I don't think complaining about female objectification or ridiculous double standards is just a matter of preference. If these are valid criticisms OP is making, they would also come under what is generally understood to be sexism. The fact that there are worse acts of sexism in the developing world doesn't mean we can't address the problems here. When my wife tells me to get on with fixing the dishwasher I don't retort with "but what about Africa?" and go back to watching tv, I get on with fixing the dishwasher. And also maybe later do something about Africa as well (because damning someone's complaint by saying there are bigger problems more worthy of attention, only to then have no personal interest in dealing with those bigger problems, is an act of blatant hypocrisy).

As to abusing terminology, a lot of words on the internet get abused and devalued. Yes it is a shame that a word used to describe PTSD is now used as a synonym for "irritated", but in such instances its usually clear in which sense someone means the word. OP is using triggered in an informal sense. It is also clear they mean sexism in the actual sense.

I want to address your last point first. It's interesting that you are dismissing how "triggered" was used. If there has been one word that have been "abused and devalued", it's "sexist". (I would also add "racism" have been equally "abused and devalued", but that is a different conversation.)

For the last ten years, people have been using "sexism" to justify why they don't like a video game. There have been very few examples that would justify that claim. Most of those claims are like the one being made here. This person doesn't understand why Poison Ivy doesn't look like Gorilla Grodd. That is not sexism. That is expressing a preference of character design in a video game.

Sexual objectification and double standards are good examples of what I mean by "First World Sexism". They are not really problems. They are annoyances. When these issues get addressed, people making those complaints are quick to defend sexual objectification of men and double standards against men. So, these people are not really concerned about gender equality. They just want to make their complaints about what annoys them to seem more important than what they really are.

KissingSunlight:

maninahat:

For the last ten years, people have been using "sexism" to justify why they don't like a video game. There have been very few examples that would justify that claim. Most of those claims are like the one being made here. This person doesn't understand why Poison Ivy doesn't look like Gorilla Grodd. That is not sexism. That is expressing a preference of character design in a video game.

But that was absolutely NOT what I said.

I said that all the ladies are sexy and that all of them have a form of open and intentional sexualisation. Wherein almost none of the males are sexy and none of them are sexualised.

Sexy female characters can easily be among my preferences. Sexism is what I hate.

Sexual objectification and double standards are good examples of what I mean by "First World Sexism". They are not really problems. They are annoyances. When these issues get addressed, people making those complaints are quick to defend sexual objectification of men and double standards against men. So, these people are not really concerned about gender equality. They just want to make their complaints about what annoys them to seem more important than what they really are.

What is your point here? That I cannot complain about what annoys me unless it is a vital matter of life and death?

Okay, just chiming in as an aging comic nerd. For my two cents on Injustice 2, I'm sick to death of super-hero beat-em-ups, and would like something with a story I can engage with. That said, my son's favorite DC character is Red Hood, and he's in the DLC, so I'll like pick up the game when it comes out with its "Gold Edition" or whatever.

On topic for the thread, nothing I've seen in the trailers have been terribly cringe inducing for me, except the dialog. That said, I haven't paid a lot of attention to them either. I also don't care enough about the game to give it the views to go and rewatch them. What we're talking about is a matter of personal perception rather than a specific complaint about the final animations (game isn't out yet), and it is being circularly argued into another Escapist debate about the broader concepts of how Feminism and Gaming should interact (answer: however the creator of a game wants it to).

BUT. I saw this post and felt the need to respond:

Nature Guardian:

4) Here's a problem I have with Injustice 2. This is the female plant-person:

image

Poison Ivy is a woman who got plant powers, that they have been making green and not green again for years. Her original concept was less someone who was a plant person, and more a person who grew deadly plants and used poisons. She was (and is) a seductress, like all of Batman's female villains.

Nature Guardian:

This is the male plant-person:

image

Swamp Thing is a guy who burned to death bathed in chemicals in a swamp, so the swamp used his mind to create a defender for itself. He's literally just swamp matter.

Nature Guardian:

This is the female beast:

image

Cheetah is a woman who magically got the powers of a Cheetah. Originally, again, she was a woman who had a Cheetah costume and used claw caps on her hands. There is no reason for her to be any kind of seductress, because she's supposed to be a violent psychopath, so if they play her as one, I'll call bullshit.

Nature Guardian:

This is the male beast:

image

This is Gorilla Grodd. He is from the City of Gorillas, and was banished for being evil, so he wants to mind control mankind to take over the world. Alternately, he wants to turn mankind into apes to do his bidding.

Yes, the character models can be troubling, but you need to take the characters into account.

Nature Guardian:

But that was absolutely NOT what I said.

I said that all the ladies are sexy and that all of them have a form of open and intentional sexualisation. Wherein almost none of the males are sexy and none of them are sexualised.

Sexy female characters can easily be among my preferences. Sexism is what I hate.

I'd say your problem, then, is more with the comic books these characters are drawn from than with the game itself. For better or worse, Netherrealms is trying to do a competent job of staying true-ish (slightly alternate world and all) to the modern design for these characters.

Nature Guardian:

What is your point here? That I cannot complain about what annoys me unless it is a vital matter of life and death?

I think the point is that your complaint regarding these characters is just a superficial nitpick. It annoys you for no real reason, other than to have something to complain about on the internet.

There are some legitamacies behind the sexualization of women in the media. But I frankly don't see that in Video games, or comic books because they aren't real people. There is no abuse, no deragatory sexual pressure, no robbery of desires or wants when it comes to fictional beings. Becuase they only serve the purpose their creator decides for them.

However, when it comes to over sexualization of women in TV shows (live action), and film, then I think you have a stronger argument even if it's not 100% justified there. But there is something to be said about the actress that always has to play the "hot girl" or "slut" role because that's the archetype she fits into.

In video games....I'm sorry, but I just don't think you can hold any ground on saying artwork, literal drawings of fictional creation, hold away sway over the oppression and over sexualization of real-world women. Those things are not equal.

And honestly if you don't like the artwork, don't purchase the product. Plain and simple. Because ultimately this feministic outcry is merely "I don't like this, so it should not exist", and that's not a fight you have any right to bring up. Let people like what they like, including the creators of this content, and leave it alone. You don't have to support it if you don't approve of it.

You can argue that it is your right to criticize it, and you are right. You do have that right. But it doesn't make your criticisms valid.

Nature Guardian:
SNIP

I guess back when these characters were created this sort of thing was common place on female characters and while I would say you're right on some points I would not say making Catwoman, Starfire, Cheetah, Poison Ivy, or Harley Quinn anything other than super villains or rouge/anti heroes would be wrong. None of these characters are meant to be role models, you're not supposed to root for them they are all murdering scumbags. Wonder Woman would be the only fair point except she's literally dressed like any gladiator from the Roman empire, she's not even wearing a costume anymore, it's just a gladiator costume.

as for the men... yeah I guess I agree with you that the fact they all wear skin tight suits and are buff as all hell is wrong when the girls wear next to nothing but at the same time these are their iconic designs and that's what it all boils down to. DC/WB isn't trying to be sexist or anything of the sort they are simply appealing to comic book fans that recognize all the characters and their iconic signature moves and looks.

Nature Guardian:

Satinavian:

Nature Guardian:

Really? So why isn't Batman doing sound effects images when attacking and why is Robin not wearing only his underwear?

No, apparently the only thing that hasn't changed in 60 years of comics, and was worth preserving, is the sexism.

Because i said 10 to 30 years. Stuff that is even older is too old for video gamers. Gamers beyond 50 are outside of the scope.

Oh come on. "Thirty years ago sexism was ok. So that new game should be sexist because it has characters that were sexist 30 years ago".

It should obviously no sexist.

But when filling a rooster with figures from a timescale when female comic characters were mostly damsels, sidekicks or femme fatales and male comic characters were mostly Marty Sues, evil geniuses or brawny villians, it is utterly forgivable and even expected, if the result matches the source.

That is not sexism as far as the game is concerned.

I don't even like comic books and 20 years ago i hated the blatant sexism in comics. But games based on those comics resembling them ? I have no problem with that. Especcially as it seems like the excesses of the 90s didn't make it into the game, so it is already a more modern, more equal version.

Silvanus:
No, the other-- rational-- explanation is that there is very often a disconnect between the character and the model, and that perhaps looking super-sexy wasn't top of their priorities. And why should it be?

The notion of intentionally making them ugly for political reasons is... well, just take a step back and review that notion. It is utterly absurd. It's based on nothing solid or substantial at all. Some people think a model is prettier than the video game character that was partially based on them. That's literally all it took for people to jump to the conclusion that they don't want hawt women there for political reasons they never expressed? It really is utterly hilarious.

"Political reasons" is probably not a good description. More likely, it was something like this... some influential people within the company or investors decided, hey, let's break the stereotype of the hot female hero, so we can then pat ourselves on the back and say look at me, look at how progressive I am. Women don't need to be pretty to have value. Let's make her look average, and not hot at all. So they gave her a big nose, big lips, bulgy eyes, and the result is something that looks like it needs to be fed flies.

If you don't think that type of thing goes on in media, then I don't know what to tell you. It's been happening for at least 50 years, often with awkward results, long before the term SJW was an internet meme, before there was even an internet.

Whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. For me, it's immersion-breaking, because every time I look at that character, I am very conscious of their purpose, which is to lecture the audience on their lack of progressivism. I feel like the game is telling me that I should feel ashamed for wishing she was hotter and not so ugly.

Satinavian:
Especcially as it seems like the excesses of the 90s didn't make it into the game, so it is already a more modern, more equal version.

Man, if they actually put the excesses from the 90s I would have realized what they were going for and I'd have been more tolerant of the perceived sexism.

Then again, the excesses of the 90s were awesome.

Then again, Lobo was the epitome of those excesses yet it wasn't a sexist comic in my opinion when compared to the others.

......Man, I really wish Lobo was in Injustice 2.

So it seems OP isn't trying to just rustle some jimmies. So I'll leave this:

Kerg3927:

"Political reasons" is probably not a good description. More likely, it was something like this... some influential people within the company or investors decided, hey, let's break the stereotype of the hot female hero, so we can then pat ourselves on the back and say look at me, look at how progressive I am. Women don't need to be pretty to have value. Let's make her look average, and not hot at all. So they gave her a big nose, big lips, bulgy eyes, and the result is something that looks like it needs to be fed flies.

Except it's not, is it? She just looks kind of normal, or at least quite similar to countless other NPCs. It's just become exaggerated by those wishing to make a point of it.

This is still drawing conclusions based on very, very little. A character looks unlike her model. You're ascribing motivations to the designers based on that alone?

Kerg3927:
If you don't think that type of thing goes on in media, then I don't know what to tell you. It's been happening for at least 50 years, often with awkward results, long before the term SJW was an internet meme, before there was even an internet.

I'm sure it does (just as elsewhere in media, designers will make their female characters super-sexeh and the male characters just kind of average, in order to cater to their perception of their audience, and nobody bats an eyelid).

But there is no compelling evidence whatsoever to ascribe that phenomenon to this example. There is no smoke to indicate a fire.

Kerg3927:

Whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. For me, it's immersion-breaking, because every time I look at that character, I am very conscious of their purpose, which is to lecture the audience on their lack of progressivism. I feel like the game is telling me that I should feel ashamed for wishing she was hotter and not so ugly.

A purpose which has been expressed only by you, to yourself, and then projected onto the developer. That purpose has never been expressed by anybody involved in the game; it is only your assumption, your speculation.

kitsunefather:
She was (and is) a seductress, like all of Batman's female villains.

Well, except Orca.

Silvanus:

Well, except Orca.

Well, shit in a basket, I didn't realize Orca was originally a Batman villain; assumed Aquaman. Leave it to Larry Hama to throw me a curve ball.

Looking over the backstory of her, now I want Orca in one of these Injustice Games. They need to do an "Animals Attack" DLC or something. Put Killer Shark in it, too. Maybe Detective Chimp.

Silvanus:

Kerg3927:

"Political reasons" is probably not a good description. More likely, it was something like this... some influential people within the company or investors decided, hey, let's break the stereotype of the hot female hero, so we can then pat ourselves on the back and say look at me, look at how progressive I am. Women don't need to be pretty to have value. Let's make her look average, and not hot at all. So they gave her a big nose, big lips, bulgy eyes, and the result is something that looks like it needs to be fed flies.

Except it's not, is it? She just looks kind of normal, or at least quite similar to countless other NPCs. It's just become exaggerated by those wishing to make a point of it.

This is still drawing conclusions based on very, very little. A character looks unlike her model. You're ascribing motivations to the designers based on that alone?

Kerg3927:
If you don't think that type of thing goes on in media, then I don't know what to tell you. It's been happening for at least 50 years, often with awkward results, long before the term SJW was an internet meme, before there was even an internet.

I'm sure it does (just as elsewhere in media, designers will make their female characters super-sexeh and the male characters just kind of average, in order to cater to their perception of their audience, and nobody bats an eyelid).

But there is no compelling evidence whatsoever to ascribe that phenomenon to this example. There is no smoke to indicate a fire.

Kerg3927:

Whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. For me, it's immersion-breaking, because every time I look at that character, I am very conscious of their purpose, which is to lecture the audience on their lack of progressivism. I feel like the game is telling me that I should feel ashamed for wishing she was hotter and not so ugly.

A purpose which has been expressed only by you, to yourself, and then projected onto the developer. That purpose has never been expressed by anybody involved in the game; it is only your assumption, your speculation.

If this was an isolated incident, I could see your point. But you have to look at the history of Bioware (and I've played every one of their games except Jade Empire). Context and common sense are important. Bioware has a reputation as probably the most left wing progressive gaming company out there. Their prior female protagonists have always been hot, but suddenly this one's not. Their past characters who were modeled after hot real life people have always turned out hot in-game, until now. So I think it's reasonable to ask why the drastic change and to speculate as to why.

But you're right, if we were in a court of law, I wouldn't have any evidence to prove my case because I've never been present at a meeting of Bioware decision makers, nor are transcipts of any of those meetings available to the public. Luckily we're not in a court of law.

Kerg3927:

If this was an isolated incident, I could see your point. But you have to look at the history of Bioware (and I've played every one of their games except Jade Empire). Context and common sense are important. Bioware has a reputation as probably the most left wing progressive gaming company out there. Their prior female protagonists have always been hot, but suddenly this one's not. Their past characters who were modeled after hot real life people have always turned out hot in-game, until now. So I think it's reasonable to ask why the drastic change and to speculate as to why.

But there are so many perfectly rational explanations which don't ascribe these motivations to the designers which they've never expressed. Games differ from past games made by the same company in thousands of myriad ways; that's the nature of changing design, particularly since Andromeda wasn't even made by the same developers.

Kerg3927:

But you're right, if we were in a court of law, I wouldn't have any evidence to prove my case because I've never been present at a meeting of Bioware decision makers, nor are transcipts of any of those meetings available to the public. Luckily we're not in a court of law.

No, we're not. But you don't have enough evidence to argue your case to a group of relatively sceptical laymen, either, because there's no evidence at all.

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Nobody Ever:
Look! The video game character isn't as hot as Jim Peyton! This is an intentional effort on the part of the Lost Planet 3 developers to make male characters less sexy, because they don't want sexy men in their games!

Silvanus:

Kerg3927:

If this was an isolated incident, I could see your point. But you have to look at the history of Bioware (and I've played every one of their games except Jade Empire). Context and common sense are important. Bioware has a reputation as probably the most left wing progressive gaming company out there. Their prior female protagonists have always been hot, but suddenly this one's not. Their past characters who were modeled after hot real life people have always turned out hot in-game, until now. So I think it's reasonable to ask why the drastic change and to speculate as to why.

But there are so many perfectly rational explanations which don't ascribe these motivations to the designers which they've never expressed. Games differ from past games made by the same company in thousands of myriad ways; that's the nature of changing design, particularly since Andromeda wasn't even made by the same developers.

Kerg3927:

But you're right, if we were in a court of law, I wouldn't have any evidence to prove my case because I've never been present at a meeting of Bioware decision makers, nor are transcipts of any of those meetings available to the public. Luckily we're not in a court of law.

No, we're not. But you don't have enough evidence to argue your case to a group of relatively sceptical laymen, either, because there's no evidence at all.

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Nobody Ever:
Look! The video game character isn't as hot as Jim Peyton! This is an intentional effort on the part of the Lost Planet 3 developers to make male characters less sexy, because they don't want sexy men in their games!

I have an opinion, which I've already said is based upon speculation. But also based upon the probably 3,000 hours of my life that I've spent playing Bioware games the past 20 years... knowledge and context that I can't impart to you, sorry. I don't care if you agree with me. So why are you still arguing with me?

Kerg3927:

I have an opinion, which I've already said is based upon speculation. But also based upon the probably 3,000 hours of my life that I've spent playing Bioware games the past 20 years... knowledge and context that I can't impart to you, sorry. I don't care if you agree with me. So why are you still arguing with me?

This is a forum, in which both of us care about the topic in question, that's why. Did you believe this was a place to pass judgement on people and products and receive no dispute in return?

Silvanus:

Kerg3927:

I have an opinion, which I've already said is based upon speculation. But also based upon the probably 3,000 hours of my life that I've spent playing Bioware games the past 20 years... knowledge and context that I can't impart to you, sorry. I don't care if you agree with me. So why are you still arguing with me?

This is a forum, in which both of us care about the topic in question, that's why. Did you believe this was a place to pass judgement on people and products and receive no dispute in return?

No, but it's pretty pointless to continue to argue lack of evidence, when I've already said that my opinion is based upon speculation. That's what speculation means, lack of concrete evidence.

Kerg3927:

No, but it's pretty pointless to continue to argue lack of evidence, when I've already said that my opinion is based upon speculation. That's what speculation means, lack of concrete evidence.

You have nevertheless given reasons why you believe what you believe. And I have been criticising them. That's what we do, here; you're free not to take part, but since I care about the topic, I will be.

Silvanus:

Kerg3927:

No, but it's pretty pointless to continue to argue lack of evidence, when I've already said that my opinion is based upon speculation. That's what speculation means, lack of concrete evidence.

You have nevertheless given reasons why you believe what you believe. And I have been criticising them. That's what we do, here; you're free not to take part, but since I care about the topic, I will be.

You are using speculation to argue that my speculation is incorrect. :) I don't see what that accomplishes. I'm done. Carry on.

I couldn't care less about that or this game honestly. I just want a good game. Sex appeal or no.

Kerg3927:

You are using speculation to argue that my speculation is incorrect. :) I don't see what that accomplishes.

Neither of us have positive evidence; luckily, you're the one making the positive claim, and mine is merely the null hypothesis. I don't need positive evidence.

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