Total War Warhammer 2: Gameplay teaser and other news.

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Samtemdo8:
What's wrong with Attila's combat?

Everything...

Serious answer: since I think TW Empire they've had this terribad system for melee combat where a killing blow can only be done in a "kill move" animation, which means that, regardless of numbers or unit quality, all melee clashes boil down to hundreds of small 1v1 battles as opposed to armies fighting each other as a whole. It makes battles look more cinematic at first glance but thats only until you zoom in and realize how fucking stupid it is to see 10 soldiers fighting 10 other soldiers while 100 others shuffle around awkwardly doing nothing. Said shuffle also makes units break solid formation - not like thats important in a fucking strategy game, right? This is a particularly grevious sin in Rome, Attila and Napoleon because its completely contradictory to how armies actually fought at the time. Not so bad in Warhammer because you can hardly cry about "muh realism" there, plus siege weapons and abilities play a much larger roll.

In what I guess was an attempt to make this less obvious without sacrificing the "make battles look good in trailers" system they just sped up the fighting for Rome 2 and rolled with it for Attila, but that just makes things even worse because now your epic 10.000 v 15.000 troop battles are over in less than 5 minutes, literally. Charge > use unit special ability twice in the space of 4 minutes because fuck long cooldowns > unit routes, battle won, bye bye, even on legendary difficulty.

Theres a reason the entire community serious about Total War multiplayer battles is still stuck on Medieval 2. Medieval 3 or anything other than Warhammer really is going to suck with the current combat system and CA really need to sit down and change it big time. Its gotten to the point where I really don't understand where the work is going; the AI still sucks, the campaign map has been dumbed down, combat hasn't changed, event cutscenes have almost completely disappeared and so have traits...

didn't they change the combat for warhammer no though? don't units gang up on each other now?

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

Samtemdo8:
What's wrong with Attila's combat?

Everything...

Serious answer: since I think TW Empire they've had this terribad system for melee combat where a killing blow can only be done in a "kill move" animation, which means that, regardless of numbers or unit quality, all melee clashes boil down to hundreds of small 1v1 battles as opposed to armies fighting each other as a whole. It makes battles look more cinematic at first glance but thats only until you zoom in and realize how fucking stupid it is to see 10 soldiers fighting 10 other soldiers while 100 others shuffle around awkwardly doing nothing. Said shuffle also makes units break solid formation - not like thats important in a fucking strategy game, right? This is a particularly grevious sin in Rome, Attila and Napoleon because its completely contradictory to how armies actually fought at the time. Not so bad in Warhammer because you can hardly cry about "muh realism" there, plus siege weapons and abilities play a much larger roll.

In what I guess was an attempt to make this less obvious without sacrificing the "make battles look good in trailers" system they just sped up the fighting for Rome 2 and rolled with it for Attila, but that just makes things even worse because now your epic 10.000 v 15.000 troop battles are over in less than 5 minutes, literally. Charge > use unit special ability twice in the space of 4 minutes because fuck long cooldowns > unit routes, battle won, bye bye, even on legendary difficulty.

Theres a reason the entire community serious about Total War multiplayer battles is still stuck on Medieval 2. Medieval 3 or anything other than Warhammer really is going to suck with the current combat system and CA really need to sit down and change it big time. Its gotten to the point where I really don't understand where the work is going; the AI still sucks, the campaign map has been dumbed down, combat hasn't changed, event cutscenes have almost completely disappeared and so have traits...

Funny thing is people wants kill animations for Warhammer...

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

Samtemdo8:
What's wrong with Attila's combat?

Everything...

Serious answer: since I think TW Empire they've had this terribad system for melee combat where a killing blow can only be done in a "kill move" animation, which means that, regardless of numbers or unit quality, all melee clashes boil down to hundreds of small 1v1 battles as opposed to armies fighting each other as a whole. It makes battles look more cinematic at first glance but thats only until you zoom in and realize how fucking stupid it is to see 10 soldiers fighting 10 other soldiers while 100 others shuffle around awkwardly doing nothing. Said shuffle also makes units break solid formation - not like thats important in a fucking strategy game, right? This is a particularly grevious sin in Rome, Attila and Napoleon because its completely contradictory to how armies actually fought at the time. Not so bad in Warhammer because you can hardly cry about "muh realism" there, plus siege weapons and abilities play a much larger roll.

In what I guess was an attempt to make this less obvious without sacrificing the "make battles look good in trailers" system they just sped up the fighting for Rome 2 and rolled with it for Attila, but that just makes things even worse because now your epic 10.000 v 15.000 troop battles are over in less than 5 minutes, literally. Charge > use unit special ability twice in the space of 4 minutes because fuck long cooldowns > unit routes, battle won, bye bye, even on legendary difficulty.

Theres a reason the entire community serious about Total War multiplayer battles is still stuck on Medieval 2. Medieval 3 or anything other than Warhammer really is going to suck with the current combat system and CA really need to sit down and change it big time. Its gotten to the point where I really don't understand where the work is going; the AI still sucks, the campaign map has been dumbed down, combat hasn't changed, event cutscenes have almost completely disappeared and so have traits...

Honestly when people say the AI still sucks I have to say something because define how it still sucks because its very vague.

I played this game and never had any noticiable AI issues.

Bombiz:
didn't they change the combat for warhammer no though? don't units gang up on each other now?

True enough and it was about time, although a cynical person would say it was brought back because making the 1v1 animations for so many unique units is too much work for CA. I would be total alright with Warhammers battles if it weren't for the AI which somehow seems even worse than usual + I just don't like the setting as much as historical stuff.

Samtemdo8:
Honestly when people say the AI still sucks I have to say something because define how it still sucks because its very vague.

I played this game and never had any noticiable AI issues.

If you didn't notice any issues - I mean this in the nicest possible way, not everyone can sacrifice literally thousands of hours of their real life to autistically roleplay some Venician Doge or whoever like I do - you're probably not that good at Total War. Start with the battles: they're a fucking joke. On a good day the AI can at least manage to flank with cavalry if the terrain isn't too confusing but thats about the limit. It consistently focuses the wrong units, uses its ranged units to fire at whatever charges in first, sets up its armies in completely ridiculous ways and just cannot play around reinforcements at all (it will either just camp on a hill and wait or immediately attack you before reinforcements can join the battle, but never begin moving toward reinforcements to form one large force before fighting). I once beat 4 (four) buffed up full stacks with one army in one single battle in Rome 2. On VH. That just shouldn't be possible. If you doubt me on this fire up any Total War game and play a multiplayer battle against an average opponent. Yeah I know, blabla, AI can't be as good as humans, blabla - look, its been the same shit for like 5 games now. At some point they should have been able to make at least some improvements.

Or the campaign map, oh God, the campaign map. The AI does a bunch of dumb shit I can't be bothered to explain here, so I'll provide other evidence. If campaign map AI was anywhere near half decent, it wouldn't have to cheat so much. Funnily enough it cheats more with every game. In Warhammer for example...

-ridiculously higher chance for enemy agent actions to succeed
-buff to AI army match stance, meaning they can kite the player indefinitely without penalty
-upkeep costs. Supporting 3 full stacks with one not even fully upgraded province. Seems legit.
-AI armies can raze and keep moving without match stance, player armies can't
-AI gets legendary heros and equipment for free
-AI gets massive boosts to public order

Again, I understand the AI in strategy games will always need some unfair advantage to provide a challenge, but this has been getting worse from game to game. Instead of attempting to improve AI, CA merely buffs up the AI cheats and says "We made it harder, see!". Its lazy and moaning about how hard it is to program good AI is lazy too. If Paradox can do it for EU4, a game which is roughly 15 times as complicated as any TW game (not a hyperbole), CA can do it too. The worst thing about all of this is that barring Legendary, the game still isn't fucking difficult, it just peppers your campaign with a shitload of minor frustrations. The time it takes to deal with them again and again really tires you out.

Wonder if they'll fucking sell the blood and gore dlc for the umpteenth time?

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
snip

You forgot that the AI allocates upgrade points apparently at random.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

Bombiz:
didn't they change the combat for warhammer no though? don't units gang up on each other now?

True enough and it was about time, although a cynical person would say it was brought back because making the 1v1 animations for so many unique units is too much work for CA. I would be total alright with Warhammers battles if it weren't for the AI which somehow seems even worse than usual + I just don't like the setting as much as historical stuff.

Samtemdo8:
Honestly when people say the AI still sucks I have to say something because define how it still sucks because its very vague.

I played this game and never had any noticiable AI issues.

If you didn't notice any issues - I mean this in the nicest possible way, not everyone can sacrifice literally thousands of hours of their real life to autistically roleplay some Venician Doge or whoever like I do - you're probably not that good at Total War. Start with the battles: they're a fucking joke. On a good day the AI can at least manage to flank with cavalry if the terrain isn't too confusing but thats about the limit. It consistently focuses the wrong units, uses its ranged units to fire at whatever charges in first, sets up its armies in completely ridiculous ways and just cannot play around reinforcements at all (it will either just camp on a hill and wait or immediately attack you before reinforcements can join the battle, but never begin moving toward reinforcements to form one large force before fighting). I once beat 4 (four) buffed up full stacks with one army in one single battle in Rome 2. On VH. That just shouldn't be possible. If you doubt me on this fire up any Total War game and play a multiplayer battle against an average opponent. Yeah I know, blabla, AI can't be as good as humans, blabla - look, its been the same shit for like 5 games now. At some point they should have been able to make at least some improvements.

Or the campaign map, oh God, the campaign map. The AI does a bunch of dumb shit I can't be bothered to explain here, so I'll provide other evidence. If campaign map AI was anywhere near half decent, it wouldn't have to cheat so much. Funnily enough it cheats more with every game. In Warhammer for example...

-ridiculously higher chance for enemy agent actions to succeed
-buff to AI army match stance, meaning they can kite the player indefinitely without penalty
-upkeep costs. Supporting 3 full stacks with one not even fully upgraded province. Seems legit.
-AI armies can raze and keep moving without match stance, player armies can't
-AI gets legendary heros and equipment for free
-AI gets massive boosts to public order

Again, I understand the AI in strategy games will always need some unfair advantage to provide a challenge, but this has been getting worse from game to game. Instead of attempting to improve AI, CA merely buffs up the AI cheats and says "We made it harder, see!". Its lazy and moaning about how hard it is to program good AI is lazy too. If Paradox can do it for EU4, a game which is roughly 15 times as complicated as any TW game (not a hyperbole), CA can do it too. The worst thing about all of this is that barring Legendary, the game still isn't fucking difficult, it just peppers your campaign with a shitload of minor frustrations. The time it takes to deal with them again and again really tires you out.

You are talking to a person that has been playing Medieval 2 for just as long and trust me the AI was not god tier in that game at all. Especially in Siege Battles.

Whitbane:
Wonder if they'll fucking sell the blood and gore dlc for the umpteenth time?

i think its easy to assume they will.

haha medieval 2.. those were the days. i remember the Ai being so broken on release that an AI army wouldnt react to you unless you engaged them in melee, so you could just sit across from them and kill them all with arrows

pookie101:

Whitbane:
Wonder if they'll fucking sell the blood and gore dlc for the umpteenth time?

i think its easy to assume they will.

haha medieval 2.. those were the days. i remember the Ai being so broken on release that an AI army wouldnt react to you unless you engaged them in melee, so you could just sit across from them and kill them all with arrows

If you had the Blood and Gore DLC in the first game, it will apply in the Second Game.

So they learned from Rome 2 and Attila.

been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

iwinatlife:
been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

Word that I've heard through the grapevine is that the DLC factions aren't that great. Chaos fights amongst itself too easily and Wood Elves are a glass cannon that forgot the cannon part. You may want to take a long look through user reviews to get the full story. The other DLC, the Lord ones, are better, but I'd still recommend close scrutiny.

iwinatlife:
been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

Beastmen are a fun faction to play as account of their different starting positions but their stand alone campaign is pretty boring.

Grim and the grave add a lot of good empire and VC units. I would actually say that Grim and the Grave add necessary units for the vamps if you want to perform swarm tactics.

King and the warlord is probably the best since it adds new units and better Lords with different starting positions.

Chaos is pretty boring/unfun with out mods.

erttheking:

iwinatlife:
been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

Word that I've heard through the grapevine is that the DLC factions aren't that great. [...] Wood Elves are a glass cannon that forgot the cannon part.

what? I remember people memeing about this early on but I didn't think people actually believed it.

Bombiz:

iwinatlife:
been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

Beastmen are a fun faction to play as account of their different starting positions but their stand alone campaign is pretty boring.

Grim and the grave add a lot of good empire and VC units. I would actually say that Grim and the Grave add necessary units for the vamps if you want to perform swarm tactics.

King and the warlord is probably the best since it adds new units and better Lords with different starting positions.

Chaos is pretty boring/unfun with out mods.

erttheking:

iwinatlife:
been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

Word that I've heard through the grapevine is that the DLC factions aren't that great. [...] Wood Elves are a glass cannon that forgot the cannon part.

what? I remember people memeing about this early on but I didn't think people actually believed it.

Well if I"m wrong I'll happily be wrong in this regard.

erttheking:

iwinatlife:
been playing the first one a lot this last week and now really wanting some of that dlc.
Are the chaos warriors a good faction? and do the wood elves have a large amount of missile units?
My quest is to find the strongest missile unit faction so far settled on dwarves.

Word that I've heard through the grapevine is that the DLC factions aren't that great. Chaos fights amongst itself too easily and Wood Elves are a glass cannon that forgot the cannon part. You may want to take a long look through user reviews to get the full story. The other DLC, the Lord ones, are better, but I'd still recommend close scrutiny.

Considering you've not actually played any of the DLC factions by your own admission I don't understand why you'd feel that you need to give your opinion but oh well.

Chaos - Fun because they're just a murder/death/kill faction, bit frustrating because if you lose a lord you have to start building your army from scratch and you lose all your growth and buildings over again so it takes time. Chaos doesn't "fight amongst itself" at all. The Norsca tribes you subjugate do and they'll tell you to fuck off if you pick a fight they don't think they can handle. You'll likely end up auto-resolving a lot because you're either steamrolling enemies or struggling because Chaos lords suffer attrition when they're next to each other so you need to plan out ahead of time what you're doing if you need to reinforce other armies. They have fuck all missle troops but their Hellcannons are easily the best artillery in the game and can break units before they cross the field. You can also guide their shots like Doom Divers.

Wood Elves - Again, fun and different. Zero focus on actually holding onto territory outside of Athel Loren you just take a settlement and move on. They need the most micromanagement in battle of all the armies because so much of their tactics are in being able to shoot while moving. Most of their units have zero staying power besides forest spirits so you have to keep a constant eye on what everyone is doing and pulling them back from enemies and hitting and running. Lords get a buff that increases the amount of ammo they carry and the damage they do.

Beastmen - Orcs but goats. Not used them much.

Meh.

Really unimpressed by everything I've seen of TWWH2.

It doesn't look like a sequel. It looks like a glorified expansion pack. The same game again, just with more/differnt content. They intent on not fixing anything either. They've already said that they won't be changing the sieges (which were shit) or the magic (which was shit).

Maybe that would be okay if the new factions were interesting. But they're not. The High Elves don't seem to have much to distinguish them mechanically and look fucking hilarious with their pointy penis hats. The Lizardmen look alright but, once again, just seem like a mechanically pretty standard army.

I'm just not seeing what is supposed to justify paying any more than $20 or so.

Zhukov:
Meh.

Really unimpressed by everything I've seen of TWWH2.

It doesn't look like a sequel. It looks like a glorified expansion pack. The same game again, just with more/differnt content. They intent on not fixing anything either. They've already said that they won't be changing the sieges (which were shit) or the magic (which was shit).

Maybe that would be okay if the new factions were interesting. But they're not. The High Elves don't seem to have much to distinguish them mechanically and look fucking hilarious with their pointy penis hats. The Lizardmen look alright but, once again, just seem like a mechanically pretty standard army.

I'm just not seeing what is supposed to justify paying any more than $20 or so.

Wait until the Skaven and Dark Elves than.

Here Comes Tomorrow:
Snip

*Shrugs* I've heard really bad things and I didn't want someone to waste their money. Hell, I told them to check out the user reviews for a reason.

Samtemdo8:
Wait until the Skaven and Dark Elves than.

I am.

However I'm given to understand that WH Dark Elves just look like fantasy dominatrixes (the ones in the trailer did) which is dumb and cliche and just not my cup of tea. Even if the Skaven turn out awesome in every way there's no chance of me paying full price for a single good faction for a game that I have in essentially already played.

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
Wait until the Skaven and Dark Elves than.

I am.

However I'm given to understand that WH Dark Elves just look like fantasy dominatrixes (the ones in the trailer did) which is dumb and cliche and just not my cup of tea. Even if the Skaven turn out awesome in every way there's no chance of me paying full price for a single good faction for a game that I have in essentially already played.

I for one love the High Elves because Dragons, proper Fire breathing Red Scaled Dragons.

That is enough for me to buy it. I already pre ordered.

Samtemdo8:

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
Wait until the Skaven and Dark Elves than.

I am.

However I'm given to understand that WH Dark Elves just look like fantasy dominatrixes (the ones in the trailer did) which is dumb and cliche and just not my cup of tea. Even if the Skaven turn out awesome in every way there's no chance of me paying full price for a single good faction for a game that I have in essentially already played.

I for one love the High Elves because Dragons, proper Fire breathing Red Scaled Dragons.

That is enough for me to buy it. I already pre ordered.

No wonder they don't feel any need to fix their shit or make improvements.

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:

Zhukov:

I am.

However I'm given to understand that WH Dark Elves just look like fantasy dominatrixes (the ones in the trailer did) which is dumb and cliche and just not my cup of tea. Even if the Skaven turn out awesome in every way there's no chance of me paying full price for a single good faction for a game that I have in essentially already played.

I for one love the High Elves because Dragons, proper Fire breathing Red Scaled Dragons.

That is enough for me to buy it. I already pre ordered.

No wonder they don't feel any need to fix their shit or make improvements.

But I hope they change up alot by the third game.

Samtemdo8:
But I hope they change up alot by the third game.

They don't give a flying fuck about what you hope. They care only about what you buy and you'll pre-order it the second someone says "bloodthirster".

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
But I hope they change up alot by the third game.

They don't give a flying fuck about what you hope. They care only about what you buy and you'll pre-order it the second someone says "bloodthirster".

Well the thing is I mostly just play Custom Battles by myself setting up the armies I want to see fight so more factions is really all I need.

But I hope for better sieges.

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:

Zhukov:

I am.

However I'm given to understand that WH Dark Elves just look like fantasy dominatrixes (the ones in the trailer did) which is dumb and cliche and just not my cup of tea. Even if the Skaven turn out awesome in every way there's no chance of me paying full price for a single good faction for a game that I have in essentially already played.

I for one love the High Elves because Dragons, proper Fire breathing Red Scaled Dragons.

That is enough for me to buy it. I already pre ordered.

No wonder they don't feel any need to fix their shit or make improvements.

didn't he pre order it because they fixed something? the dragon breath IIRC

Bombiz:

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:

I for one love the High Elves because Dragons, proper Fire breathing Red Scaled Dragons.

That is enough for me to buy it. I already pre ordered.

No wonder they don't feel any need to fix their shit or make improvements.

didn't he pre order it because they fixed something? the dragon breath IIRC

Dragon Breath? No

Just like the game in general. And besides its been a whole year since I bought the first game at launch full price.

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