The Nostalrius Team Says Blizzard Wants Legacy Servers

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The Nostalrius Team Says Blizzard Wants Legacy Servers

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After meeting with Blizzard, the team behind the Nostalrius legacy server says that the company wants legacy servers, but there are issues.

When Blizzard's legal team dropped the hammer on the Nostalrius private WoW server, everyone though that would be the end of it. After all, what recourse would a group of people who were basically running a pirated server have?

Instead of disappearing into obscurity, the players from the server put together a petition that garnered hundreds of thousands of signatures, and Blizzard took notice, setting up a meeting with the server's admin team. Now that meeting has taken place, and after the planned two-hour get-together stretched out to five hours, the Nostalrius team says they're convinced that Blizzard wants legacy servers, but that there are challenges to overcome.

Over on the Nostalrius forums, the group posted a summary of their day at Blizzard. They met with many familiar names at Blizzard, including CEO Mike Morhaime, WoW Executive Producer J. Allen Brack, Game Director Tom Chilton, Assistane GAme Director Ion Hazzikostas, and Blizzard Community Manager Randy Jordan.

The team learned that while Blizzard does have the source code for vanilla WoW, they may be missing other important parts of the equation, like models, maps, and other data. The team summed it up, saying, "Not all of this information was under a version control system." It turns out that the parts that are lost will likely have to recreated, and that will take time, money, and effort on Blizzard's part.

Still, the Nostalrius team came away from the meeting feeling that Blizzard does want to create vanilla servers if they can. The team wrote of the meeting, "To sum up: the good surprise of the meeting was the level of engagement of all these Blizzard people toward making legacy servers a reality. "The downside is the technical difficulty it will take to reach our objective. Blizzard is now well aware of the amount of players willing to play legacy servers, something which wasn't the case until Nostalrius shutdown."

We'll have to wait and see what the future holds for legacy WoW servers, but one thing is certain: Almost no one expected the response that Blizzard got from the shutdown, and even fewer people expected Blizzard to spend the time they have considering it. Who knows what may come of it?

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I saw this on the WoW sub-reddit earlier. Sounds promising, but I wouldn't expect anything solid from Blizzard for awhile. I think it's highly likely we'll get some form of Legacy servers eventually. At the very least they'll roll out expansion-specific servers once they're done making new content for good. Hopefully they can get out ahead and implement something a little more interesting though. I'd love to play on a TBC or WotLK progression server.

I imagine at this stage, Actiblizzion is willing to do pretty much anything to recover some lost subs.

Typical BS. We don't have the models. Like feck they don't, if that were the issue then none of these private servers could exist. Everything that is used in the game, is in the game's client. THey really just don't want them, because here's the proof.

Okay, say we believe they weren't thinking in terms of legacy servers when Vanilla was the thing, fine; but ask them about any plans for WoD legacy servers when Legion rolls out and they'll give you the same answer.Heck the fact that they don't start with MoP legacy servers shows that they really aren't interested. Why? Because then that divides the playerbase and you will have fewer people going into their shiny new turds and thusly fewer people will want to.

Sad but true, Blizzard pays lipservice to the idea but they really don't want to because they need people playing their new stuff. Hell, that they say they're going to slow down levelliung again, do you think it's because they appreciate the difference between the old system and the new system? or because they want to sell new instant upgrades?

As someone happily playing on a private server-- btw thanks Blizz, if you hadn't made such a big showy thing about this I would have never gotten the idea of it, sure quite a few others wouldn't as well. -- I can say they are fairly faithful, outsiude scripting errors here and there but the games are perfectly fun and playable.

SOme of them have even done some rather interesting ideas like, custom quest chains, races, heck there's even a few classless servers where you gain class skills through quests allowing some mixing and matching.

"And by the way, you don't want them either. You think you do, but you don't" -Some guy from blizzard.

Now I can just take that foot in mouth quote and just shove it right up their ass.

Well I was going to say "Inb4 people on this site who have a better idea of the internal workings of Blizzard than the company themselves" but it seems I'm too late.

Actually this is kind of what I was expecting. They want to offer the option but are skeptical of how much they need to spend on setting it up vs how much it will actually bring in.

Let's be real here, they can't charge the full price they are charging for new WoW and since you're appealing to people that previously played it they won't want to rebuy a game that they already paid for once. So right off the bat the amount of $$ is limited... then you add in the fact of how many people are going to sign up for a month and realize they just can't recreate the original experience (they are older now, don't have the time to play like they used to, can't find a guild like their old one, etc...)

Throw in complications with version control and the costs associated and it value to the company gets iffy. I mean they weren't the mega company they are now and with all the issues they had in the first year I can totally believe that version control got cast aside... and it's not as easy as just picking up an original CD and copying the models back.

ffronw:
Blizzard is now well aware of the amount of players willing to play legacy servers, something which wasn't the case until Nostalrius shutdown."

No they aren't. Situations like this are notorious for the "Gimme this!" "OK, here you go." "Not interested anymore, goodbye."

I refuse to believe that a company that has thrown millions at developing shit before tossing it out when it didn't meet their standards like Blizzard has doesn't have some spare interns around to fix this shit, especially when the Nostalrius devs managed to do this as a fucking fan project.

As much as Blizzard has tried to push the new expansion to be like The Burning Crusade, it just won't be, it won't be anywhere near as good as The Burning Crusade was.

Screw Vanilla WoW legacy servers, give us TBC legacy servers. People would return in droves, I know I would... I definitely won't be returning for this Legion shit.

Blizzard has enough money and resources to basically put a B team onto a Burning Crusade legacy server, and even add new content to it, like an alternate WoW timeline.

They've got Jeff Kaplan, one of the greatest dungeon and raid designers (if not the single greatest) in the video game industry, on the TF2-clone FPS Overwatch for god sake.

jurnag12:
I refuse to believe that a company that has thrown millions at developing shit before tossing it out when it didn't meet their standards like Blizzard has doesn't have some spare interns around to fix this shit, especially when the Nostalrius devs managed to do this as a fucking fan project.

Well it's probably more complicated than that. Nostalrius probably mocked up a server for the original version of the game, barebones connection to mimic what a battle.net server used to do back in the days of vanilla WoW.
So they have 2 basic options:
1) Do what Nostalrius did and try to build server software that will allow the vanilla client to work with the new B.net. This however prevents them from updating the client at all and would be a bandaid solution.
2) Try to rebuild the original client and just update how it interacts with current B.net. A better solution but depending on how bad their version control was it could mean completely re-writing a lot of code.

sonicneedslovetoo:
"And by the way, you don't want them either. You think you do, but you don't" -Some guy from blizzard.

Now I can just take that foot in mouth quote and just shove it right up their ass.

Honestly? He was perfectly justified in that quote.

Some guy takes the stage to once again ask the same question which has been asked a thousand fucking times, "Make Legacy servers". It's like going up to Gabe Newell or any Valve Employee and asking "when is Half Life 3 coming out?" Such an original and funny question.

It's gotta be fucking exhausting from their standpoint.

Also, a lot of the appeal for WoW's legacy servers comes from nostalgia. The game is currently objectively better quality. A lot of the deterioration of WoW comes from other factors, such as MMOs and online presence becoming more prevalent over the last decade.

A lot of the players on Nostalrius never really stuck around. A lot of players who made accounts would create them, and then stop playing after a short amount of time. And then you need to consider the amount of players, and the fact that only a portion of these players would actually pay $15 a month to play on Blizzard's official servers, when established free alternatives already do.

Granted, they seem more convinced that there's a market for legacy servers, and have it for consideration, but at the time that he made the comment, they were not. There wasn't this viral bandwagon backlash from Nostalrius being shut down.

jurnag12:
I refuse to believe that a company that has thrown millions at developing shit before tossing it out when it didn't meet their standards like Blizzard has doesn't have some spare interns around to fix this shit, especially when the Nostalrius devs managed to do this as a fucking fan project.

I mean, the guys at Nostalrius are indicating the technical difficulty there for Blizzard to bring back the servers. It's both beyond the skill level of an intern, and you kind of need quite a few legally paid employees in order to consistently work on this. They'd need to hire new people in order to make legacy servers happen, so they need to weigh up if it's financially viable. They seem to be more convinced that it is, so now it's a question as to whether or not they'll allocate resources to bring legacy servers.

Nostalrius ran the servers as a hobby. You can't really expect Blizzard employees to do the same thing, on top of their regular jobs.

Step 1: Copy and paste the Nostalrius source code.
Step 2: THERE ISN'T A STEP TWO FFS

Whatislove:
As much as Blizzard has tried to push the new expansion to be like The Burning Crusade, it just won't be, it won't be anywhere near as good as The Burning Crusade was.

Screw Vanilla WoW legacy servers, give us TBC legacy servers. People would return in droves, I know I would... I definitely won't be returning for this Legion shit.

Blizzard has enough money and resources to basically put a B team onto a Burning Crusade legacy server, and even add new content to it, like an alternate WoW timeline.

They've got Jeff Kaplan, one of the greatest dungeon and raid designers (if not the single greatest) in the video game industry, on the TF2-clone FPS Overwatch for god sake.

It'll be better, if anything.

Burning Crusade was a pretty so-so expansion. Nothing was really changed. It kept pretty much every single problem of vanilla WoW, but threw in a couple of slightly improved raids/dungeons, and a couple of new races. Pretty much the only good feature were flying mounts.

Wrath of the Lich King was a far superior expansion.
-Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel were two of the best raids which have ever been in the game
-Looking for group was a godsend compared to standing in Dalaran typing "need tank and healer Violet Hold HC" for 30 fucking minutes
-Leveling was made way faster which in turn ended up being way nicer. People whine that "slower leveling feels like more of an achievement", but having high level content which you can never fucking play just sucks, and slow leveling is absolute bullshit to those who don't want to be locked into one specific class choice when they start the game.
-Death knights felt like actual new content, where Blood Elves and Draenei were glorified cosmetics.
-Questing was made better, with some quest lines which were way more interesting. Assault on Undercity felt really epic the first time I played through it.
-It was aesthetically better than any expansion before. The Nordic tones were nice, and the music was fantastic in some of the zones.
-Wintergrasp was really fun world PvP with the introduction of siege vehicles.

People look at vanilla WoW in rose tinted goggles, but Wrath of the Lich King was where the true quality was. Mostly because it was WoW before negative features like Raid finder and Guild leveling came in.

Possible solution; hire the Nostalrius team? It's not unheard of for companies to offer jobs to folks that exploit or retool their software. Valve hired Tony Paloma (aka "Drunken F00l") after banning him for breaking Steam's TOS via exploits and third party programs for TF2.

This is PR talk for "big fucking nothing".

The Co-optional podcast brought up some very good reasons why Blizzard did what they did a while back. If anyone's interested:

Starts at 1:47:01

Kibeth41:

Whatislove:
As much as Blizzard has tried to push the new expansion to be like The Burning Crusade, it just won't be, it won't be anywhere near as good as The Burning Crusade was.

Screw Vanilla WoW legacy servers, give us TBC legacy servers. People would return in droves, I know I would... I definitely won't be returning for this Legion shit.

Blizzard has enough money and resources to basically put a B team onto a Burning Crusade legacy server, and even add new content to it, like an alternate WoW timeline.

They've got Jeff Kaplan, one of the greatest dungeon and raid designers (if not the single greatest) in the video game industry, on the TF2-clone FPS Overwatch for god sake.

It'll be better, if anything.

Burning Crusade was a pretty so-so expansion. Nothing was really changed. It kept pretty much every single problem of vanilla WoW, but threw in a couple of slightly improved raids/dungeons, and a couple of new races. Pretty much the only good feature were flying mounts.

Wrath of the Lich King was a far superior expansion.
-Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel were two of the best raids which have ever been in the game
-Looking for group was a godsend compared to standing in Dalaran typing "need tank and healer Violet Hold HC" for 30 fucking minutes
-Leveling was made way faster which in turn ended up being way nicer. People whine that "slower leveling feels like more of an achievement", but having high level content which you can never fucking play just sucks, and slow leveling is absolute bullshit to those who don't want to be locked into one specific class choice when they start the game.
-Death knights felt like actual new content, where Blood Elves and Draenei were glorified cosmetics.
-Questing was made better, with some quest lines which were way more interesting. Assault on Undercity felt really epic the first time I played through it.
-It was aesthetically better than any expansion before. The Nordic tones were nice, and the music was fantastic in some of the zones.
-Wintergrasp was really fun world PvP with the introduction of siege vehicles.

People look at vanilla WoW in rose tinted goggles, but Wrath of the Lich King was where the true quality was. Mostly because it was WoW before negative features like Raid finder and Guild leveling came in.

They changed a lot in TBC, saying they didn't change much is a huge exaggeration. I don't look at Vanilla WoW like it's perfection, I know it wasn't that great, but I felt WoW peaked in TBC.

Wrath was fine, it was good, but for all those things you listed, there was also a whole lot of crap. You mention Ulduar (one of my favourite raids) and ICC (Overrated imo.. a lot of boring junk bosses and near-clone bosses in between a few gems) but Wrath also brought us Argent tourney.. and Naxx HD, both pretty awful raids, some of the worst ever.

The problem with Wrath for me is that Blizzard seemed to signal (with Wrath of the Lich King) that they were done with catering to the crowd that made the game so popular in the first place. I am not an elitist, I don't despise casual gamers, and I don't think that it's bad for WoW to be more inclusive, but Wrath was the slippery slope that lead to making a game almost purely for casual gamers in a bid to get more subscribers.

Subscribers peaked in Wrath of the Lich King, but if you follow the sub numbers quarter by quarter, the increase in subs was much slower than it was in TBC. TBC saw sharp increases every quarter, while wrath saw a sharp increase early on and really fizzled out, and overall Wrath gained less players from TBC than TBC gained from Vanilla. Subs did peak in Wrath but it remains to be seen whether those sub numbers would have been reached regardless of Wrath or not.

The problem with catering to a more casual crowd, and/or less experienced crowd is that, in general, they don't stick around as long as the dedicated MMO player that WoW used to be for. The casual crowd just move on to the next thing, or stop playing, or play so little that it doesn't sustain the game. You see it with every subsequent expansion, people flock in at launch and then they lose 2-4 million subs in a few months. This never happened in TBC, it kept growing, incredibly strong, throughout the entire expansion all the way until the end.

TBC had a good 7-8 million subs of mostly dedicated players and I always felt that Wrath marked the decision at Blizzard to go for pure subscription numbers over everything else, regardless of retention, or anything that may happen after they hit their next milestone.

I raided in a US (and briefly world) top 200 guild in TBC, Wrath, and Cataclysm, and while Ulduar is one of my favourite raids (Jeff Kaplan's last raid FYI.. and look what we got after he was moved to Titan), most of my favourite memories of raiding are from TBC, Wiping for weeks on Morogrim Tidewalker in SSC, TK and SSC were both amazing raids, Black Temple was amazing, Karazhan was stunning, I struggle to think back on any raid I didn't like in TBC, and none of them were as weak as some of the pathetic attempts in Wrath.

I liked Wrath, I loved TBC, and it will always be my belief that if Blizzard stayed on the same path as TBC the game would be far healthier today than it is.

I also just wanted to add that it wasn't like TBC was only for hardcore players, Blizzard took a number of steps to make it easier for the casual gamer, there were multitudes of casual raiding guilds, thousands of them. TBC had a good mix of elements for both the hardcore and casual crowd. Wrath tipped the game into casual's favour, and everything after that just made it worse and worse.

(P.S I know it seems like I'm really negative towards the casual gamer, but I am really not, I am mostly a casual gamer myself nowadays, I was just trying to get the point across that an MMO community is harder to sustain with a vast majority of it being casual gamers.)

Yeah, fair enough. Tech problems are always a pain in the ass.

Personally, legacy servers aren't for me - despite cutting my teeth on Vanilla (almost literally, I wasn't even a teenager when it came out) and having lots of fond memories of TBC (emergency tanking a raid boss as an Enhancement Shaman because the Warrior's shield broke mid-combat is something I'll never not love doing), I have... little desire to return to those days. Probably because I've slowly moved away from raiding and now just do questing and leveling, and that sucked ass back in the classic days.

Still, if Blizzard thinks there's a viable market for it and they can pony up the cash to get around the tech issues, go nuts. Though I wonder if there'll be any interactivity with the cross-server things they've got atm (i.e. Bind on Account Gear, Mount Tabs, the upcoming Legion transmog system) or if they'll do it fresh.

Nah.

They don't want to maintain 2 code bases.
They don't want to split the user base.

End of story.

I don't expect anything to come from it because this all sounds like absolute crap, but I'll probably join to see how accurate it is.

Kibeth41:

Whatislove:
As much as Blizzard has tried to push the new expansion to be like The Burning Crusade, it just won't be, it won't be anywhere near as good as The Burning Crusade was.

Screw Vanilla WoW legacy servers, give us TBC legacy servers. People would return in droves, I know I would... I definitely won't be returning for this Legion shit.

Blizzard has enough money and resources to basically put a B team onto a Burning Crusade legacy server, and even add new content to it, like an alternate WoW timeline.

They've got Jeff Kaplan, one of the greatest dungeon and raid designers (if not the single greatest) in the video game industry, on the TF2-clone FPS Overwatch for god sake.

It'll be better, if anything.

Burning Crusade was a pretty so-so expansion. Nothing was really changed. It kept pretty much every single problem of vanilla WoW, but threw in a couple of slightly improved raids/dungeons, and a couple of new races. Pretty much the only good feature were flying mounts.

Wrath of the Lich King was a far superior expansion.
-Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel were two of the best raids which have ever been in the game
-Looking for group was a godsend compared to standing in Dalaran typing "need tank and healer Violet Hold HC" for 30 fucking minutes
-Leveling was made way faster which in turn ended up being way nicer. People whine that "slower leveling feels like more of an achievement", but having high level content which you can never fucking play just sucks, and slow leveling is absolute bullshit to those who don't want to be locked into one specific class choice when they start the game.
-Death knights felt like actual new content, where Blood Elves and Draenei were glorified cosmetics.
-Questing was made better, with some quest lines which were way more interesting. Assault on Undercity felt really epic the first time I played through it.
-It was aesthetically better than any expansion before. The Nordic tones were nice, and the music was fantastic in some of the zones.
-Wintergrasp was really fun world PvP with the introduction of siege vehicles.

People look at vanilla WoW in rose tinted goggles, but Wrath of the Lich King was where the true quality was. Mostly because it was WoW before negative features like Raid finder and Guild leveling came in.

A WotLK legacy server would be the only thing that could get me to resub I think. It was wrath that got me into high level progression raiding and made I feel like a community. WoW started to die for me when they merged 10 and 25 man raids and the pug community and shortly after the whole community started to die

Whatislove:

They changed a lot in TBC, saying they didn't change much is a huge exaggeration. I don't look at Vanilla WoW like it's perfection, I know it wasn't that great, but I felt WoW peaked in TBC.

Wrath was fine, it was good, but for all those things you listed, there was also a whole lot of crap. You mention Ulduar (one of my favourite raids) and ICC (Overrated imo.. a lot of boring junk bosses and near-clone bosses in between a few gems) but Wrath also brought us Argent tourney.. and Naxx HD, both pretty awful raids, some of the worst ever.

The problem with Wrath for me is that Blizzard seemed to signal (with Wrath of the Lich King) that they were done with catering to the crowd that made the game so popular in the first place. I am not an elitist, I don't despise casual gamers, and I don't think that it's bad for WoW to be more inclusive, but Wrath was the slippery slope that lead to making a game almost purely for casual gamers in a bid to get more subscribers.

Subscribers peaked in Wrath of the Lich King, but if you follow the sub numbers quarter by quarter, the increase in subs was much slower than it was in TBC. TBC saw sharp increases every quarter, while wrath saw a sharp increase early on and really fizzled out, and overall Wrath gained less players from TBC than TBC gained from Vanilla. Subs did peak in Wrath but it remains to be seen whether those sub numbers would have been reached regardless of Wrath or not.

The problem with catering to a more casual crowd, and/or less experienced crowd is that, in general, they don't stick around as long as the dedicated MMO player that WoW used to be for. The casual crowd just move on to the next thing, or stop playing, or play so little that it doesn't sustain the game. You see it with every subsequent expansion, people flock in at launch and then they lose 2-4 million subs in a few months. This never happened in TBC, it kept growing, incredibly strong, throughout the entire expansion all the way until the end.

TBC had a good 7-8 million subs of mostly dedicated players and I always felt that Wrath marked the decision at Blizzard to go for pure subscription numbers over everything else, regardless of retention, or anything that may happen after they hit their next milestone.

I raided in a US (and briefly world) top 200 guild in TBC, Wrath, and Cataclysm, and while Ulduar is one of my favourite raids (Jeff Kaplan's last raid FYI.. and look what we got after he was moved to Titan), most of my favourite memories of raiding are from TBC, Wiping for weeks on Morogrim Tidewalker in SSC, TK and SSC were both amazing raids, Black Temple was amazing, Karazhan was stunning, I struggle to think back on any raid I didn't like in TBC, and none of them were as weak as some of the pathetic attempts in Wrath.

I liked Wrath, I loved TBC, and it will always be my belief that if Blizzard stayed on the same path as TBC the game would be far healthier today than it is.

I also just wanted to add that it wasn't like TBC was only for hardcore players, Blizzard took a number of steps to make it easier for the casual gamer, there were multitudes of casual raiding guilds, thousands of them. TBC had a good mix of elements for both the hardcore and casual crowd. Wrath tipped the game into casual's favour, and everything after that just made it worse and worse.

(P.S I know it seems like I'm really negative towards the casual gamer, but I am really not, I am mostly a casual gamer myself nowadays, I was just trying to get the point across that an MMO community is harder to sustain with a vast majority of it being casual gamers.)

See, that's the thing. You were in a top 200 raiding guild. The portion of the game that you experienced was only realistically accessible by about 0.05% of the playerbase. So while the game was all fine for you, it was pretty subpar for literally everyone else.

The game was just unforgiving enough that players couldn't get to high end content. At least from Wrath onwards, most players could actually raid.

And while Argent Tournament wasn't the best raid, the raid was more of an intermission before we got to Icecrown. Hell, the raid wasn't even the focal point of the patch. It also brought in mounted combat (a frequent request from fans), a dungeon, and a new daily questing area.

And Naxxramas wasn't a bad raid. It was yet another fan request. A lot of players constantly request for old raids to be updated, so they brought forward Naxxramas, Onyxia, and later on brought Molten Core. Sure, if you raided in vanilla, it was probably a disappointment, but the vast majority of vanilla players never hit end game, because it was literally THAT time consuming.

Wrath actually made the game accessible.

MonsterCrit:
Typical BS. We don't have the models. Like feck they don't, if that were the issue then none of these private servers could exist. Everything that is used in the game, is in the game's client. THey really just don't want them, because here's the proof.

So I imagine you personally know more than Nostalrius and Blizzard about what assets have been maintained over the last decade, as well as the technical and financial hurdles in creating a Legacy server.

It's actually pretty sad. No matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liers, and exclaiming about how they know more.

Kibeth41:

Whatislove:

They changed a lot in TBC, saying they didn't change much is a huge exaggeration. I don't look at Vanilla WoW like it's perfection, I know it wasn't that great, but I felt WoW peaked in TBC.

Wrath was fine, it was good, but for all those things you listed, there was also a whole lot of crap. You mention Ulduar (one of my favourite raids) and ICC (Overrated imo.. a lot of boring junk bosses and near-clone bosses in between a few gems) but Wrath also brought us Argent tourney.. and Naxx HD, both pretty awful raids, some of the worst ever.

The problem with Wrath for me is that Blizzard seemed to signal (with Wrath of the Lich King) that they were done with catering to the crowd that made the game so popular in the first place. I am not an elitist, I don't despise casual gamers, and I don't think that it's bad for WoW to be more inclusive, but Wrath was the slippery slope that lead to making a game almost purely for casual gamers in a bid to get more subscribers.

Subscribers peaked in Wrath of the Lich King, but if you follow the sub numbers quarter by quarter, the increase in subs was much slower than it was in TBC. TBC saw sharp increases every quarter, while wrath saw a sharp increase early on and really fizzled out, and overall Wrath gained less players from TBC than TBC gained from Vanilla. Subs did peak in Wrath but it remains to be seen whether those sub numbers would have been reached regardless of Wrath or not.

The problem with catering to a more casual crowd, and/or less experienced crowd is that, in general, they don't stick around as long as the dedicated MMO player that WoW used to be for. The casual crowd just move on to the next thing, or stop playing, or play so little that it doesn't sustain the game. You see it with every subsequent expansion, people flock in at launch and then they lose 2-4 million subs in a few months. This never happened in TBC, it kept growing, incredibly strong, throughout the entire expansion all the way until the end.

TBC had a good 7-8 million subs of mostly dedicated players and I always felt that Wrath marked the decision at Blizzard to go for pure subscription numbers over everything else, regardless of retention, or anything that may happen after they hit their next milestone.

I raided in a US (and briefly world) top 200 guild in TBC, Wrath, and Cataclysm, and while Ulduar is one of my favourite raids (Jeff Kaplan's last raid FYI.. and look what we got after he was moved to Titan), most of my favourite memories of raiding are from TBC, Wiping for weeks on Morogrim Tidewalker in SSC, TK and SSC were both amazing raids, Black Temple was amazing, Karazhan was stunning, I struggle to think back on any raid I didn't like in TBC, and none of them were as weak as some of the pathetic attempts in Wrath.

I liked Wrath, I loved TBC, and it will always be my belief that if Blizzard stayed on the same path as TBC the game would be far healthier today than it is.

I also just wanted to add that it wasn't like TBC was only for hardcore players, Blizzard took a number of steps to make it easier for the casual gamer, there were multitudes of casual raiding guilds, thousands of them. TBC had a good mix of elements for both the hardcore and casual crowd. Wrath tipped the game into casual's favour, and everything after that just made it worse and worse.

(P.S I know it seems like I'm really negative towards the casual gamer, but I am really not, I am mostly a casual gamer myself nowadays, I was just trying to get the point across that an MMO community is harder to sustain with a vast majority of it being casual gamers.)

See, that's the thing. You were in a top 200 raiding guild. The portion of the game that you experienced was only realistically accessible by about 0.05% of the playerbase. So while the game was all fine for you, it was pretty subpar for literally everyone else.

The game was just unforgiving enough that players couldn't get to high end content. At least from Wrath onwards, most players could actually raid.

And while Argent Tournament wasn't the best raid, the raid was more of an intermission before we got to Icecrown. Hell, the raid wasn't even the focal point of the patch. It also brought in mounted combat (a frequent request from fans), a dungeon, and a new daily questing area.

And Naxxramas wasn't a bad raid. It was yet another fan request. A lot of players constantly request for old raids to be updated, so they brought forward Naxxramas, Onyxia, and later on brought Molten Core. Sure, if you raided in vanilla, it was probably a disappointment, but the vast majority of vanilla players never hit end game, because it was literally THAT time consuming.

Wrath actually made the game accessible.

I couldn't agree more. I don't know about your server, but on mine as far as i can remember only 2 guilds were ever raiding Naxx at 60 beyond the first 2 or 3 bosses and until the wrath pre-patch only the top 3 guilds had even been inside Sunwell. TBC was great if you were top-end but for everyone else all it really did was raise the level cap and make most skill trees viable at end-game.

Whatislove:
You see it with every subsequent expansion, people flock in at launch and then they lose 2-4 million subs in a few months. This never happened in TBC, it kept growing, incredibly strong, throughout the entire expansion all the way until the end.

TBC had a good 7-8 million subs of mostly dedicated players and I always felt that Wrath marked the decision at Blizzard to go for pure subscription numbers over everything else, regardless of retention, or anything that may happen after they hit their next milestone.

(P.S I know it seems like I'm really negative towards the casual gamer, but I am really not, I am mostly a casual gamer myself nowadays, I was just trying to get the point across that an MMO community is harder to sustain with a vast majority of it being casual gamers.)

It's worth remembering that the market is very different now than it was nearly ten years ago when The Burning Crusade was new. We can theorize all we want about how people would come flying back to WoW in the millions for a proper legacy server, but the fact of the matter is that for every person who would there are probably ten who are completely burnt out on the game or MMOs in general or just simply don't have the free time anymore because, you know, they're ten years older now than they were back then. Quite frankly, as much as modern WoW might be bogged down by a lot of weird stuff, actually doing things back in TBC took forever, and that's a time investment a lot of people just don't have anymore. Blizzard started catering to the "casual" crowd because it was the only way the game was going to remain sustainable in a long-term sense; they were going to lose the "hardcore" players one way or the other eventually.

Kibeth41:

So I imagine you personally know more than Nostalrius and Blizzard about what assets have been maintained over the last decade, as well as the technical and financial hurdles in creating a Legacy server.

Well, let me ask you this... if these are such insurmountable challenges... how was Nostarilus and many other private sevrer runners.. able to do what they do. Seriously. Go play a few and you'll scarcely notice the difference between the blizzard servers and the private servers.

It's actually pretty sad. No matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liers, and exclaiming about how they know more.

As said, go play on a private server sometime and you'll understand. I've been playing a Cata server for the last month and while it's not perfect, it is significantly capable. With the exception of some scripting most servers manage to have an 80% blizz-accurate experience. Hell, a few have even customized the game with custom classes and races. If they can do that with what they've been able to cobble together..Blizzard has no excuse.

They said that it was impossible to operate legacy servers... then explain Nostarilus, certainly did well enough to have a 150K people happily playing on it. What this is, is Blizzard trying to recover from the fact that their shut down of Nostarilus has ironcially brought the existence of these sorts of servers to light.

I want many things too, blizzard. Like that super gaming computer.

But do I pay for it? End of story.

MonsterCrit:

Kibeth41:

So I imagine you personally know more than Nostalrius and Blizzard about what assets have been maintained over the last decade, as well as the technical and financial hurdles in creating a Legacy server.

Well, let me ask you this... if these are such insurmountable challenges... how was Nostarilus and many other private sevrer runners.. able to do what they do. Seriously. Go play a few and you'll scarcely notice the difference between the blizzard servers and the private servers.

It's actually pretty sad. No matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liers, and exclaiming about how they know more.

As said, go play on a private server sometime and you'll understand. I've been playing a Cata server for the last month and while it's not perfect, it is significantly capable. With the exception of some scripting most servers manage to have an 80% blizz-accurate experience. Hell, a few have even customized the game with custom classes and races. If they can do that with what they've been able to cobble together..Blizzard has no excuse.

They said that it was impossible to operate legacy servers... then explain Nostarilus, certainly did well enough to have a 150K people happily playing on it. What this is, is Blizzard trying to recover from the fact that their shut down of Nostarilus has ironcially brought the existence of these sorts of servers to light.

Literally no one aside from clueless fans has ever said it's an easy task to do. And Nostalrius weren't pioneers with legacy servers, they just had the most popular one. Synigma sums it up best.

Synigma:

Well it's probably more complicated than that. Nostalrius probably mocked up a server for the original version of the game, barebones connection to mimic what a battle.net server used to do back in the days of vanilla WoW.
So they have 2 basic options:
1) Do what Nostalrius did and try to build server software that will allow the vanilla client to work with the new B.net. This however prevents them from updating the client at all and would be a bandaid solution.
2) Try to rebuild the original client and just update how it interacts with current B.net. A better solution but depending on how bad their version control was it could mean completely re-writing a lot of code.

Also, Nostalrius employees were doing this as an unpaid hobby, paying out of pocket. You seriously can't expect Blizzard employees to do the same thing, on top of their current jobs.

No one is fucking lying to you. No one is trying to fool you in some big con. Both Nostalrius and Blizzard have stated the same thing. But you obviously don't believe either, since you evidently know better than both.

They probably WILL create legacy servers at some point, but it'll be a pretty decent sized investment, taking quite a bit a money. They need employees, hardware, utilities, software, servers, etc. Until then stop pretending that you have the slightest amount of knowledge on the subject, because the fact of the matter is..

And I can't believe I'm having to repeat this again..

It's actually pretty sad. No matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liars, and exclaiming about how they know more.

Kibeth41:

Also, Nostalrius employees were doing this as an unpaid hobby, paying out of pocket. You seriously can't expect Blizzard employees to do the same thing, on top of their current jobs.

And yet, they got it to work while doing their own jobs and familial obligations. STill not seeing the issue here.

No one is fucking lying to you. No one is trying to fool you in some big con. Both Nostalrius and Blizzard have stated the same thing. But you obviously don't believe either, since you evidently know better than both.

I believe what i see, what I see is many, many private servers being run by people out of pocket and intheir spare time without going into bankruptcy and more or less working blind.

You telling me Blizzard couldn't match that with even minimal effort?

They probably WILL create legacy servers at some point, but it'll be a pretty decent sized investment, taking quite a bit a money. They need employees, hardware, utilities, software, servers, etc. Until then stop pretending that you have the slightest amount of knowledge on the subject, because the fact of the matter is..

The hardware can't be that hard, because again, lots of these servers exist and are able to operate on a free to play basis. And rather that say trying to you know, work with the server runners they decide to take a hammer to them.

It's actually pretty sad. No matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liars, and exclaiming about how they know more.

Blizzard are Greedy liars; they've proven the greedy part time and time again, and more thatn a few times, they've issued statements, like this one, that don't hold up to observation or scrutiny. They've basically done the equivalent of saying 'Bumblebess should not be able to fly'. But they obviously are. They say Legacy can't be done, but it *is*, and quite successfully, so either Blizzard is lying to deflect the questions of why they don't or they didn't know what they were saying and should perhaps look at how these many servers are able to operate and do what they claim to be impossible.

But of course they do not want to, it's much, easier to make half-assed excuses and ask people to fork over money for their latest pile.

You have your beliefs, I have mine, but I've spent the last month leveling on a cata server and I really, really can't see how Blizzard is unable to match what these people are doing. Try a couple and see for yourself.

MonsterCrit:

Blizzard are Greedy liars

I know right? How dare they not take the time, money, resources and manpower away from the MMO they're currently working on to have them work on an older version of the game that would in no way draw in the kind of numbers to justify the cost of doing so.

The bastards.

anthony87:

MonsterCrit:

Blizzard are Greedy liars

I know right? How dare they not take the time, money, resources and manpower away from the MMO they're currently working on to have them work on an older version of the game that would in no way draw in the kind of numbers to justify the cost of doing so.

The bastards.

More like how dare they prevent me from playing the game i actually purchased.. If I wanted to see pandas running around, I'd have bought MoP. If I wanted baby's first skill system. I'd have Bought WoD. I didn't buy any of those. Ah well, I suspect Legion will be the last Expack they actually do. If it follows recent trends then there will be a brief spike in the player base six months later they will be experiencing what amounts to a net player loss. The subs have already reached a point where Blizz doesn't want to talk about them anymore.

MonsterCrit:

Well, let's just go over all of the stuff you decided to either omit, or you just outright missed the point of.

-Literally no one aside from clueless fans has ever said it's an easy task to do. And Nostalrius weren't pioneers with legacy servers, they just had the most popular one.

-Also, Nostalrius employees were doing this as an unpaid hobby, paying out of pocket. You seriously can't expect Blizzard employees to do the same thing, on top of their current jobs. (psst. this means that Blizzard has to hire NEW EMPLOYEES, they cost like.. $40k a year, each, at least.)

-Something being a hobby does not equate to it being an easy task. It simply means that you're not paid for doing the task, which is what Nostalrius were doing. Blizzard are legally obligated to pay their employees. Their employees have no legal obligation to take this up as a hobby.

-I don't want to quote Synigma again, but refer back to their comment, considering that you conveniently pretended that it doesn't exist.

-When I stated hardware, I'm referring to the cost of buying proper servers, the cost of new PCs required for employees, proper equipment, etc. Besides, literally no one has said that it's cheap. You just assumed that it's cheap

Let's be honest here. All of your ramblings are based on assumptions. Because, no matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liars, and exclaiming about how they know more.

MonsterCrit:

The hardware can't be that hard, because again, lots of these servers exist and are able to operate on a free to play basis. And rather that say trying to you know, work with the server runners they decide to take a hammer to them.

These servers are using the files from old versions of the game. In order to do what you appear to be asking, Blizzard would need to keep copies of every version of every expansion so that they could be distributed to people who only want to play a specific one (disregarding the fact that Battle.net itself has changed wildly over the years and older versions of WoW likely aren't even compatible with it anymore). If you don't see why that's a difficult/costly undertaking, then...

Online games change. They move forward. That's... kind of the thing you agree to when you sign up?

Kibeth41:

Well, let's just go over all of the stuff you decided to either omit, or you just outright missed the point of.

-Literally no one aside from clueless fans has ever said it's an easy task to do. And Nostalrius weren't pioneers with legacy servers, they just had the most popular one.

-Also, Nostalrius employees were doing this as an unpaid hobby, paying out of pocket. You seriously can't expect Blizzard employees to do the same thing, on top of their current jobs. (psst. this means that Blizzard has to hire NEW EMPLOYEES, they cost like.. $40k a year, each, at least.)

Did I ever say it was easy? Nope, just said it could be done.

-Something being a hobby does not equate to it being an easy task. It simply means that you're not paid for doing the task, which is what Nostalrius were doing. Blizzard are legally obligated to pay their employees. Their employees have no legal obligation to take this up as a hobby.

-I don't want to quote Synigma again, but refer back to their comment, considering that you conveniently pretended that it doesn't exist.

-When I stated hardware, I'm referring to the cost of buying proper servers, the cost of new PCs required for employees, proper equipment, etc. Besides, literally no one has said that it's cheap. You just assumed that it's cheap

I never said it was cheap, I just said it could be done on the cheap. Luv, you gotta stop putting words into other peoples mouths, , at least until you get the foot out of your own.

Let's be honest here. All of your ramblings are based on assumptions. Because, no matter what Blizzard, Nostalrius, or anyone else tells the mass playerbase, there're always fans frothing at the mouths, calling Blizzard greedy liars, and exclaiming about how they know more.

My point is based off the fact that many servers are doing what Blizzard states can't be done. So obviously something is not adding up. What you and the other kissers are also overlooking is that just about every other game company knows how to address that issue...make the server software available for use by those who want to take the time and money to set stuff up.

I mean honestly. It's not that Blizzard can't do it. It is that they do not want to do it. They do not see the value in doing it, but they certainly perceive those that do as enough of a threat to shut them down. Easier to destroy than make as they say. But I have said my piece. You should probably check out some of those private servers that are managing to do what Blizzard don't. I did and I can happily say Blizzard, can suck it.

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