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Supposedly, people are “on edge” about the release of the new movie Joker… but is this really the kind of film that sets off a social stir, or is it all just part of the hype?

This is The Big Picture with Bob Chipman, talking about the multifaceted forces fueling the Joker controversy.

Bob Chipman
Bob Chipman is a critic and author.

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    129 Comments

    1. If what the director is saying is true, then it is very sad that you have to make a comic book movie in order for studios to greenlight your project.

      1. I feel like that would make it worse because there is an element of “Pulling one over” on the company and instead of an original idea, it is just using the characters as paper dolls in a messy manner.

      2. I think that calls into question why he took up this project if he doesn’t count superhero movies (like the ones Bob named in this video) as “real movies”.
        Besides $.

        1. I’m befuddled by someone who sounds like they hate comic book movies, going off to go direct a comic book movie.

    2. I liked the Wonder Woman episode of Chapo. I’m also not in a twitter feud with all of the hosts, though, so what do I know?

      1. Critical thinking.

      2. I mean they’ve mocked rape victims for being raped, so there’s that.

        1. That sounds awful, but I’ve never heard them do that. What was the context?

          1. He went after a critic of his, a woman who is a liberal and feminist, AND he mocked her for being overweight. There’s never an appropriate place for that, and he’s just a flaming piece of shit.
            http://www.shakesville.com/search?q=Chapo+Trap+House

            1. Tweets are no longer available, but from context it’s pretty clear. That’s shitty, and the fact that he apologized, but not to her is also shit.

            2. Yeah, Melissa deactivated that account this summer. It’s still referenced over at her blog, but as it also links there, that’s not the end all. Suffice it to say, plenty saw it, plenty have commented on it, and yeah Felix in a half assed way apologized for doing it while ducking being confronted by that person. They’ve also mocked a 1 week old infant, saying it should have died to the mother. This is what they really mean by “dirt bag left”. And remember this is from a smug “leftist” podcast that makes over a million a year.

            3. Follow the links to https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/6oc45o/im_a_chapo_fan_but_this_is_not_great_right/dkglzpx/

              “felixbiedermanFelix Biederman 508 points 2 years ago

              Hey,
              this is Felix. I saw this just now and I have zero defense of it. I
              guess I thought the reply I screenshotted was funny but that’s
              completely fucked up and I should not have done that at all and offer no
              excuse. I kind of drift and don’t think sometimes, I think I’ve gotten
              less shitty about it but I obviously still fuck up a lot, and I’m an
              adult and it’s my responsibility. I’m donating the remainder of my
              income this month to CRR. I know that doesn’t undo the really awful shit
              I said in that post, but I feel like I have a responsibility to do
              something good out of all this.”

              I couldn’t tell you which one is Felix. What was the offending thing they said or did anyway?

            4. Felix mocked a woman for being raped and then he mocked her for being fat as well. He did that. He then went on Reddit to be a whiny self absorbed loser to say he felt bad. He then lied about Melissa having blocked him. He’s a vicious little misogynist, and this was well reported on.

            5. I mean what did they really do? I.e. a lead on quotes or pics minimum, not gossip. Obviously they felt bad and may not be a complete boy scout (I’m a goody-two-shoes and let me tell you, it’s the worst thing you can possibly be, so I understand why people aren’t if they can help it. I think the term “dirt-bag left” is a good one, but should be pointed in the other direction, at people who don’t actually have moral scruples or don’t know how to be kind and considerate in public spaces to people they’ve never met. I think that’s most online leftists who seem to think collective self-interest is equivalent to interpersonal decency. The “dirt bag” moniker here is being used ironically, for laughs.) I’m only curious.

            6. I mean what did they really do? I.e. a lead on quotes or pics minimum, not gossip. Obviously they felt bad and may not be a complete boy scout (I’m a goody-two-shoes and let me tell you, it’s the worst thing you can possibly be, so I understand why people aren’t if they can help it. I think the term “dirt-bag left” is a good one, but should be pointed in the other direction, at people who don’t actually have moral scruples or don’t know how to be kind and considerate in public spaces to people they’ve never met. I think that’s most online leftists who seem to think collective self-interest is equivalent to interpersonal decency. The “dirt bag” moniker here is being used ironically, for laughs.) I’m only curious.

            7. Is that really the road you want to go down? I really want to triple check that. You want to mock a person after they are raped, after experiencing a terrible life experience? Is that the kind of “humor” you like? I think that says a lot more about you, or mocking said rape victim and laughing at her for being fat. That seems to be basically Trump level asshole-ry, and we on the left shouldn’t be stooping to Trump’s level. And further being an absolute asshole (Felix) for grandstanding about apologizing and “feeling bad about it” but then NOT apologizing to the person it was directed against and lying about it. That’s several more layers of terrible. If you are fine with that, hey cool on you, but don’t expect others to be so tolerant.

      3. I’ve heard like 10 episodes on YouTube on topics that interest me. I give them two thumbs up.

        EDITED: They seem to be doing well for themselves (https://www.patreon.com/chapotraphouse) and not undeservedly. Jealousy is an ugly thing.

    3. If Joker does any one thing wrong it will be that it misses the point Alan Moore made in The Killing Joke that Joker was actually a completely deranged anomaly all along and not just a normal person who had a really bad day.

      1. The point of The Killing Joke is that Batman and Gordon already had their ‘bad days’ and nothing Joker could do could push them over the edge. The point was that everybody has had a ‘bad day’ that either changed them for the better or for the worse. You’ve had a bad day, I’ve had a bad day, and those ‘bad days’ shaped us into who we became as adults.

        Just as an example, did you realize that very early on in the story Batman is labelled as being ‘crazy’ and that Jim is portrayed as an alcoholic with severe psychological issues caused by a lifetime of seeing the worst the world has to offer? That was intentional. Batman and Jim were crazy before Joker shot Barbara, and they would be crazy after Joker had finished giving Jim his ‘bad day’. Joker just couldn’t recognize a different form of madness than his own, which is ironic because most people miss this element of Killing Joke because they don’t realize that Batman and Jim are just as crazy as Joker.

      2. Or…this new film is dissecting the word “crazy” and how our society actually uses the term, since the marketting has explicitly shown pre-Joker Joker to have severe mental illness. Perhaps deconstructing one of the fatal flaws of the Batman franchise, where the mentally ill are not meant to be helped but instead beaten up and thrown into prison where they can never rehabilitate, is a good idea in 20-fucking-19?

        1. Except that this new film supposedly still has ‘crazy’ Joker killing a bunch of people, which only serves to reinforce the idea that mentally ill people should be beaten & imprisoned, despite the fact that in the real world the mentally ill are *less* likely than those who aren’t to commit crime and more likely to be victims of it.

          If Joker starts with a more accurate depiction of mental illness only to go ahead with the ‘crazy serial killer’ thing anyway, I’m not really sure that’s any better.

          1. Yeah, at that point it’ll only sound like you’re playing fast and loose with what “deconstruction” actually means at best, anyway. It’s gonna look all the more hokey if you humor the pretense of criticizing tropes only to fall right back into the criticized behavior not minutes later.

      3. “Movie maker fundamentally missing Alan Moore’s point” is the free square on superhero-movie bingo

        1. What do I get if I get a bingo?

          1. A “we live in a society” meme?

            1. I was expecting nothing and still being disappointed.

      4. The movie is not an adaptation of the killing Joke, so it can miss the point and do nothing wrong at the same time.

      5. The older I get, the less I like the killing Joke. I have realized for me it makes the joker less, before that comic the Joker was a deranged monstrosity that crawled out of Batman’s actions with no rhyme or reason, and the killing joke made it just a very sad person.

        1. Except that doesn’t work, because the Killing Joke goes out of its way to point out that Joker is bullshitting. Every word he says is unreliable and he even admits to the unreliability of the whole narrative. So I’d argue he’s still very much a deranged monstrosity crawling out of Batman’s actions, he’s just a deranged monstrosity crawling out of Batman’s actions that enjoys the sound of his own voice.

      6. This isn’t an adaptation of Killing Joke, though. Alan Moore doesn’t get the final say on the Joker just because he wrote the most popular Joker-centric comic decades ago.

        This is kind of like saying the fundamental problem with Ripper Street is that it completely misses the point Alan Moore made in From Hell.

        For what it’s worth, it does seem like Joker gets the point of King of Comedy and Taxi Driver, which are the more obvious sources it adapts from.

    4. Months back, I was going to give Joker and director Todd Phillips the benefit of the doubt.

      Then I learned Todd was behind Road Trip and The Hangover trilogy.

      And then I read an article where, I’m not kidding, he tried to masturbate an infant for one of The Hangover movies.

      And then he began whining about “woke” culture ruining comedy and asking why John Wick is not getting flack for its content and many other flimsy BS arguments you hear from the average Internet scumbag.

      And now I’m just…

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8ab9a553ff517683b3d7935d66a641f89091e29bacd8475dc4cd7090d1476d59.gif

      1. I’m sorry what the ever loving FUCK was that about the infant?

        1. I’d post a link, but then I’d have to scrub myself clean again. And my doctor told me not to use bleach and a metal scouring pad on my skin.

      2. Mostly on the John Wick thing, I think it’s that John Wick is so over the top and unreal. I don’t think anyone is thinking they are the next John Wick “taking it to the man”… which in that movie meant murdering mobsters who had literally blown up or burned down your house while also murdering your dog. Also John Wick was never a touchstone for nihilistic dudes

    5. Y’know, I was looking forward to living the rest of my life having never heard what the Chapo podcast sounded like.

      1. You and me both.

      2. I immediately muted the video. Cause life is too short to hear stupid people vomit their toxic bullshit into a mic.

      3. didn’t really seem like they knew what they were talking a about

      4. Pretty much the moment some supposed political activist uses the term “bourgeois” without irony in the 21st Century, you can stop listening.

      5. Eh, I like them. They’re right a lot more than they’re wrong.

      6. Pardon us for not treating Hillary Clinton as second coming of Christ

    6. I have zero interest in this movie considering I have already watched Taxi Driver or Falling Down. What does this movie brings that’s different from “man gets angry and starts shooting people”?

      1. i guess it is “man gets angry and starts shooting people” now DRESSED AS JOKER

        1. The guy’s callousness to an Aurora movie theater not wanting to show Joker is especially distasteful.

      2. I think if you knew what it had to offer that was unique, it would no longer feel unique, giving you another reason not to see the film. Only the work can justify itself, not other people’s ideas about the work

        1. That’s a really good argument. I don’t know if enough to make me go watch it

    7. I offer this mantra; “I deny you my anger.” Works against trolls as well as advertisers.

    8. I had hoped this was the start of Shlocktober!

    9. So are you saying that the movie makers are pulling out a Hatred and baiting for attention through intentional controversy? Ok, my comparison was a little unfair. Joker seems to be Oscar material; Hatred was bargain bin material.

    10. I guarantee no one would be upset if we got double Schlocktober from now on.

      1. I would.

        Or rather I’d dislike it since it’s my least favourite kind of episode.

      2. Can we, please?

        I would not begrudge Bob one bit if we took a month off just to enjoy some weird AF horror movies.

    11. chapo trap house! It’s been so long since I saw anything of them. I should visit their channel.

    12. As a fan of gritty 70’s crime dramas….I was looking forward to this film. I never thought I should reeact the Taking of Pelham 123, or the French Connection, but they have an aesthetic I enjoy and an edge to them that some modern crime pieces miss. That said…yeah I don’t know that anyone should want to BE Joker, but I know a heck of a lot of people miss the point on this, and take away from the villains like Joker or the Sith that will to power would pulll them out of their humdrum lives…if only they could do it like they did.
      That said…I don’t see the Joker as unique. Look at the amount of fandom for Scarface, the story of a dude who winds up face down in a pool of his own blood. And yet people still idolize them.

      1. And Tony Soprano, and Tyler Durden, and Walter White, and etc.

      2. Yeah I’ve always been mystified by the people being amped to be the Sith. Like you know they are the literal space Nazis of that universe who are way too cool with murder, genocide, slavery, and torture. But hey I guess sweet black capes and a red lightsaber are enough. Reminds me of the fact Hitler had his uniforms designed by Hugo Boss for a reason, to look cool and sexy, and evidently that’s enough for some folk.

        1. Tbf, their mantra is self centered and has its appeal as a refutation of the Jedi Order even if in practice they end up being Nazi Space Wizards more often than not. Did Darth Vader ever get rid of slavery on Tatooine?

          1. I’m not sure but I know he expanded it on Kkashyyk or however you spell the Wookie planet.

            1. Wow, what a hypocrit.

            2. Yeah double checked and the Empire AFTER Vader was in power reclassified the whole species as slaves and used them to build the first Death Star… at least according to Wookiepedia.

          2. They actually make a good point of that in the Knights of the Old Republic series. You meet a Twi Lek Sith that had been enslaved and she tells you how she gained power that she wanted to go back and get revenge and free her friends and she did absolutely neither of those things. The thirst for power became more important to her and with the power she holds it would have been like a short detour. If that doesn’t point out how self-centered the Sith are, I don’t know what does.

            1. Does Darth Bane ever look on the Sith from Sith heaven and realize he made a mistake? https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oEjHGnY8oB4BHVTP2/giphy.gif

      3. You get an upvote just for name-dropping Pelham.

      4. Edit: Found the tweet that best sums it up.

        https://twitter.com/carolaverygrant/status/1180276286809202688

    13. It’s important to have perspective, yeah. Thanks Bob, good video!

      Remember kids:
      % of people who don’t watch online discourse about upcoming movies is larger than those who do
      % of those people who watch online discourse is larger than those who read comments on the video
      % of those people who read comments is larger than those who comment

      So even if you see a large % of commenters saying one thing or another, they’re nowhere near an average consensus!

      Comments shouldn’t even *get* to have an impact on your decision to see a film

    14. Whatever interest I had with the movie was shot when the director started talking about how his movie was a “real movie” compared to other comic book movies. Fuck that noise quite frankly.

      PS: Thanks Bob, I had gone this long without having to hear Chapo Trap House. Now I can go back to not listening to them. Fuck that noise too.

      1. Maybe it’s just me reading too much into what he said, but I think maybe that quote was maybe more trying to say that he’s making a movie with a bit more depth than what you might find in a summer Hollywood blockbuster?

        I’m not really up to date with how he conducts himself on a daily basis, so maybe this comment of his is really that low, but I don’t know, just playing devil’s advocate.

        1. You can have meaningful messages in pop-art blockbusters. Guardians vol. 2 had an important message about family reconciliation. Black Panther tackled issues facing black Americans. Wonder Woman took on the moral ambiguity of World War I.

          1. Oh sure, not saying you can’t. But those movies are also designed for spectacle. That’s what the average consumer is really going there to see is a fun comic book action movie.

            Outside of The Dark Knight trilogy or Logan (I know there’s others), at least for me, I’m not going in to those movies expecting a deep and powerful story like I am from what we’ve heard about The Joker.

            1. Please, that’s like saying old plays and theater pieces weren’t made for spectacle to draw in the crowds while also having a message to give. Yeah, they’re all still made to make money, but those things still had things to say as bombastic actors shouted their lines with songs in between sometimes. Ask Shakespeare. He spoke to the average consumer. We’re singing his god damn praises centuries later like he was high brow when he spoke to the common masses.

            2. @disqus_3LaThsENQT:disqus

              Again, I did not say they didn’t have messages to give, they certainly do. But I think, at least in my viewing experience, most of the time that comes second to the spectacle.

              I think the director’s comment here was poorly worded, but on a second reading it really just sounds like he was selling the execs on a comic book movie and what would be considered a “real movie” to critics who were saying it was just made to push people’s buttons.

              Who knows though, right? Till we see the movie ourselves can’t really make the judgment if it throws everything out the window that’s unique the genre.

              I’m personally a fan of the more grounded comic films, but I’m also not an avid reader of comics so my tastes are probably quite a bit different than what most fans expect from a Joker movie. “Shrug”

            3. At this point I would hope that people stop thinking like this because even fun looking comic book blockbuster films have proven time and time again to also be capable of telling deep and powerful stories. And they didn’t have to sacrifice what makes them unique or fun to do it either.

              Like Bob had mentioned before in a previous video, I also think it’s kind of ridiculous that for any of these comics inspired movies to be taken seriously apparently, they have to disregard a lot of what makes the genre unique. Joker is another one of those comic films ashamed to be a comic film. It could still be good, but it’s also pretty obvious its director shares this sentiment that it has to be as less of a comic film as it possibly can.

              If anything with the director’s more recent, juvenile comments, I’m starting to feel these other comic films he apparently looks down upon; are also gonna be better at telling a powerful story than his “real movie” because I’m getting the vibe now of Joker being what I fear. This self indulgent, cynical, and utterly pretentious pile of poop.

            4. ALL major studio movies are designed for spectacle in some way or another, The Dark Knight, Logan, and yes, with this Joker movie being right there among them. Loading up the cast with Oscar winners/nominees and watching them compete for prestige awards is its own form of spectacle. That’s why they’re all in professional made in theaters instead of being some rando’s amateur film, because they’re putting butts into seats one way or another.

              So just because the director of Starsky and Hutch is being a pretentious dweeb about it doesn’t make it any less a movie based on a children’s comic book.

              And history usually proves that stories like Black Panther and GOTG2 tend to stick with you longer and mean more to you than tryhard movies that beat you over the head with Seriousness That’s Gonna BLOW YOUR MIND, Bro!, because 9 times out of 10 their “message” is something incredibly shallow and obvious that most adults are either going to roll their eyes or laugh at. “Hey guys, did you notice that rich people treat poor people like crap?” Gee, I never did, Todd, thank you for being such a bold whistle blower, way to challenge the system, man, now let’s blast some Twisted Sister, man!

              Everything about this movie screams of a Christopher Nolan/Zach Snyder wannabe hopping onto an already dead trend a decade too late, and is now trying to yell at the kids on his lawn that have moved on already.

        2. the impression i got is more on these lines- its very difficult in the current studio system to get a mid budget, character focused, dour movie made and released into theatres. even the prestige stuff that studios eat a loss on for oscars tend to be glossy formula heavy biopics. netflix has stepped in (and amazon to some extent.) He’s basically saying ‘what if we could make one of those once ubiquitous mid budget character movies by tieing it into a comic property to secure funding and distribution.

          i mean, he’s barely even pretended that his ultimate goal wasn’t to remake a Scorsese movie (note also Scorsese himself had to go to netflix to get his latest film made.) he cast Scorsese’s most well known muse in a mirror of one of his more interesting roles.

          and lets be honest- no matter what message, or story, or acting tour de force you put in your marvel blockbuster- that movie has to end with a giant battle where CGI punches the crap out of CGI. I don’t say that as a knock on marvel- they deliver a mighty fine version of that every single time (as opposed to DC, where quality is all over the map.) worst case with marvel, you get iron man or thor 2, which are perfectly fine movies. worst case with DC you get suicide squad, which i believe is actually not a real movie, but was something created to teach in film studies classes about how important good editing is to the making a real movie. buuuuut. you also aren’t going to get the dark knight out of marvel because it doesn’t fit the house style. the marvel dark knight skips the whole ‘bomb the boats’ plot and just has batman and joker leaping around in a wild CGI fight for 10 minutes and then ends when batman knocks joker out.

          1. Yea, that’s more in-line with what I was trying to say. The director’s comment was badly worded, but like you said, it sounded like he used the comic tie-in to sell the idea of the movie to the execs and wanted to make “his” movie, not one designed by a committee.

        3. Don’t buy into the myth that summer blockbusters are inherently bereft of subtext and value, and that movies with “realistic” aesthetics and plots released in autumn do.

          What’s more impressive than what he was “trying” to say–whatever that was–is that you can be this exceptionally privileged person with heavy authority on a film project, in-charge of thousands of individuals and responsible for a breathtaking scope of multiple disciplines working in tandem… and you can still manage to sound like a pigheaded 13 year-old.

          I mean this guy got paid literal millions for his work and has a rare and demonstrable level of talent and skill far beyond anything your average person is capable of, and in that quote he sounds dumb as a rock.

          The film industry has always chased trends and smart filmmakers have always found a working compromise between what the studio wants and what they want to say about the human experience. There’s nothing radical or iconoclastic about what he did, and positioning itself as such is *at best* a marketing byline to sucker more impressionable teenage boys who don’t understand even the most basic things about the movie industry.

          1. Didn’t buy into that myth. I’m not expecting Joker to have like this super ground-breaking message to say or anything haha, as I mentioned in a comment below I’m just more of a fan of the grounded takes in the comic book genre like The Dark Knight trilogy, Logan, etc. A bit more appealing to me than most Marvel films.

            The guy sounds like he needs a PR person looking over his shoulder in interviews, that much is evident. I do think people might be overreacting to his statement of what a real movie is, but without digging into more of his past interviews, I may be wrong on that as I mentioned in my first comment.

            Curious to see how it all turns out either way and what the masses think.

        4. Right, imagine writing a movie, then taking everything that might hurt/confuse/disappoint every conceivable kind of audience member out of it leaving behind your “typical” blockbuster – hero’s journey by way of explosions, right… So with that, imagine also getting notes from every rich hand involved in financing the film telling your to squeeze every idea they think is “awesome” or else. Now, finally, imagine that you’ve stripped your work of all life and soul and you’ve realised that you’ve forgotten the third list of changes you’ve yet to make: the things the A list actors demand. Now you’re stuck with a crummy script and you need to go to Samoa because The Rock has a hankering for hitting armoured soldiers in the head with wooden sticks.

          That’s what the usual process is like for a Hollywood writer.

          And this is me leaving one MAJOR MAJOR element out: politics. You can’t be too left/right wing or else the studio will freak out and the establishment will shudder and we can never have that, can we?

          Even with Phillips stating that his film is better than… what I’ve listed, he still probably had to carve a lot out of his initial script just to get it approved by the first wall of studio reps.

          1. Thats… mmm what?

      2. Comic books aren’t part of the “real” world by definition. Like fantasy differs from “dark fantasy” (or at least it should) in that the former is not grounded in the real world, or in real-world tastes and values and complexites. That’s why there is a distinction. That’s why audiences gravitate to one style of movie or another.

      3. Every generation’s Batman movie is promoted with the people involved saying “it’s Batman but, like, as a ‘real’ movie”. Burton’s movies had that, so did Nolan’s. The Matt Reeves/Robert Pattinson version assuredly will too.

        1. I am so tired of that noise. Really wish they would try to sell me on the fantastical elements of Batman like Lego Batman did.

    15. Wow, and here I was expecting the first Schlocktober episode for this year!

      Edit: Oh boy, that director quote… X(

      1. Now I really wish we had two Schlocktober episodes a week instead of dealing with this nonsense.

    16. Chapo Trap House, wherein rich overwhelmingly white dudes whine about feminism… after having a history of being way too cool with making fun of rape victims. Also their version of leftism is a trust fund version not anchored in reality.

      1. I had no idea Chapo Trap House was a thing before… and I still have no idea what it is.
        I have a feeling that this is a positive.

        1. It’s a “leftist” podcast full of trust fund kids from New York mostly who talk about how it’s so stupid socialism hasn’t happened and people only have to work 3 hour days (yes they literally said this). They also coined the term “dirt bag left” as a way to show they are ok with certain lows, as the ends justify the means I guess.

          1. Dang, sounds more like it’s secretly funded by Koch as a plant like some podcasting version of COINTELPRO.

          2. Yeah, I don’t know where the trust fund thing comes from other than
            being an easy go-to dig against young people in Brooklyn. The closest is
            probably Will, whose dad was an editor for the New Yorker, which he’s not particularly secretive about. The rest range from upper middle class to working class backgrounds.

            In my experience, the vast, vast majority of their leftism is advocating for material benefits for the poor and working class through universal, non-means tested programs. That said, the vast, vast majority of the podcast itself is dedicated to mocking pundits and talking about weird stuff like the “Hot Couch Guy” and just generally doing the whole parasocial pals thing. The hosts themselves have said that listening to the podcast isn’t any kind of political praxis, and urge listeners to actually go out and work with local organizations.

            1. They literally make a million dollars a year being garbage people. I thought you kind of learned that when Felix mocked a woman for being raped and then mocked her for being fat. Or did you need a refresher when the show mocked a week old baby and told the mother it shouldn’t be living?

            2. Jenny, nothing personal, but why make it your business to go around defaming people? I mean, you’re obviously not alone: It’s something people do in droves; And something probably much more people can’t really wrap our heads around. Just saying, it seems like an (unironically) dirt-bag way to be to me; probably to others too.

            3. Ok, I’ll accept “defaming” people when I’m not stating actual facts about him. It’s really several layers of fucked you are making me into the bad guy when HE HAS ADMITTED TO THIS. He did this. So my question is, why are you ok with mocking rape victims or fat shaming or telling one week old newborns they shouldn’t be born?

            4. I think the show is advocating for trying to not make our society a living hell. It sounds crazy, but 10yrs ago nobody talked about these things in media. The world has changed radically. (It happens through media and word of mouth almost nothing else.)

    17. Not gonna lie, that last line got me laughing.
      If that’s true, then Warner Bros. deserves kudos for that.

    18. It is great that this came out on the same day as Lindsey Ellis’s Dumbo video.

      If you want to TLDR it along with this video, you can sum them up together as “WE ARE ALL BEING PLAYED BY BASTARD MARKETING DEPARTMENTS!”.

      But then again you all would have understood that if you read the investigation on Russian election tampering 2 years ago (not to be confused with the Mueller report {which so encapsulates our farcical political situation, it needs to be a musical all by itself}).

      1. Bob’s video was brief to the point and laid it out that it’s on us the consumers to be aware of these things. Lindsey’s video is 30 minutes of navel gaseing about fake “wokness” that are a dime-a-dozen on breadtube.

        1. Delete your account. The fact that you’re besmirching the good name of Undertale alone is enough to make you look like a tool.

          1. What? Not on this thread…Also oh no I have issues with the writting in a game I still really loved? How does that effect what I just said about Bob’s video is better than Lindsey going “Stop liking things it’s just fake corprate wokeness pandering!” Like that whole video was just a hair step away from turning into one of those videos complaining “Forced diversity”

    19. Yes, gun violence is the fault of movies, video games, comic books, television shows etc, rather than the lobbying of military industrialists like the Koch brothers et al., whose quarterly earnings go up every time a mass murder occurs because more people feel they need a gun to be safe.

    20. If I were to guess odds on what Todd Phillips does consider a real movie or not within that set of movies you flashed by?

      Probably, no, no, no, yes, no, maybe, no, no, maybe.

      (Not to say I agree with Phillips…asinine…mentality, just working on the idea of assuming that he considers comic book adaptations aesthetically similar to Joker as “real movies” to figure out his calls on what a “real movie” would be.)

    21. I always agreed with Paul Dini’s take on Joker as an awful lying sadist who happens to have max charisma.

      1. That’s it I never understood why everyone swears there’s so much more to him….He’s just a very evil funny man.

      2. I feel like there is a meme in “BTAM Joker did it first” for like every random new attempt.

    22. Ah, Road to Perdition, the only reason I ever knew it was from a comic book was that I was already a user in an Italian comic book forum with extensive sections on non-superhero stuff. They didn’t really market it as an adaptation from a comic book (also, the comic book is excellent it was out of print at the time in Italy but I managed to find a copy in a used books store in Messina), I remember it mostly being publicized as: “look! Tom Hanks, Paul Newman and Jude Law play old timey gangsters!”

      1. It was an excellent movie, I thought.

        1. It certainly is. Beyond the incipit it does largely its own thing but it’s still a damn good movie. I should look up the BD and hope it’s not a catalog hack job DNR-ed to death sooner or later.

          1. It’s weird how some books or other media just fall off the face of the earth, and you have to hope that someone on eBay or Amazon has it for sale. Been trying to find a copy of Princess Mononoke, and turns out finally Barnes and Noble of all people is selling a DVD of it.

      2. It’s up there with Cronenberg’s A History of Violence in terms of comic book movies that want to be prestige movies from major filmmakers and therefore downplay their comic book origins. Joker, meanwhile, seems unsure whether it’s embarrassed or excited to be a comic book movie as prestige movie thing.

    23. Oddly enough, isn’t the supposed potential problem being talked about (The movie serving as a symbolic rallying point for unstable individuals and perhaps inspiring further violence) one of the actual issues Batman is supposed to have in dealing with the Joker?

    24. The bigger question is will this publicity backfire? Will people be concerned that if they go see this movie they might be a victim of an imitator Aurora Colorado shooting and decide to wait until the hype dies down thus hurting the films opening weekend box office?

    25. I dunno, everything I’ve seen around Joker so far makes it look like a clown-themed knock-off of Falling Down that spectacularly missed the point.

      1. I’ve seen the opposite. The only people who appear to be hating it tend to be the SJW types.

    26. Oh the “far left” are those who think facts and ethics are important and people who aren’t white straight christian conservatives are still people with equal rights.

      ETA I’m not going to see this movie. It’s not my thing. I like movies were the protagonists are good people and not cold blooded killers. That’s just my preferences. I also won’t see the Saw, Freddy, Jason, and other horror movies for the same reason (among others).

      1. The Far Left are people who think that every straight, white Christian conservative shouldn’t be treated as people and should be treated as lesser individuals like Bob does. Check his twitter feed, it’s something else. Oh yeah, I’m straight, white but an atheist. I don’t care for religion in general but I’m not going to generally belittle someone solely because they believe some deity as that leads to otherising them and when you start otherising people, it’s not that far from seeing them as less than human. Citation, see all of human history where one group starts being treated as lessers.

        Oh yes, the Joker isn’t a protagonist. He’s an antagonist that the movie revolves around. It’s a shame that you limit your cinematic choices but that is your choice.

    27. I’m in the camp of “This looks mildly interesting, maybe I’ll catch it in a few weeks if my theatre can’t get ‘The Lighthouse'”.

    28. … “Man-trum”? Really?

    29. “Why can’t he be like that nice boy, Mario?”

      Hehehehehehheheh….

      1. Luigi’s Ballad intensifies.

    30. I didn’t realise living with anxiety and depression wasn’t an “actual problem”. How silly of me…

    31. To all the stupid people who believes that a single movie is going to inspire real-life murders, Stop it. Get some help.

      1. Given the connection between Joker’s obvious predecessors (The Dark Knight and Taxi Driver) and actual violent crimes in the real world, I don’t think it’s too much of a surprise to see this as an obvious talking point here.

        Now, I don’t doubt that James Holmes and John Hinckley were already of the psychological makeup that they’d have done something similar had those movies never existed, so I’m not saying that these movies should carry the blame for what happened. But I’m also not surprised to see this get raised as a kind of criticism against them

    32. “Internet Fantrum” needs to become a real expression.

    33. “Far left or whatever that means …”

      You know what, I’m just not going to at this point, Bob. Holy hell people are going to semantic that world to destruction.

    34. I’m still confused by the popularity of an extended version of Falling Down with clown makeup and without Robert Duvall personally.

    35. For me, something like ‘from the director of “The hangover trilogy” is so hard of a turn off, that I almost want to preemptively tell my theater to pay me back for a movie I haven’t watched yet. I tend not to pay attention to what actors, and filmmakers have to say about film, because they have ‘reason’ for why they made the film the way they did. If the director wants to make this film as social commentary but feels like the best way to do that is by associating it with a comic book character I want to say they do themselves a disservice by trying to pull away from the comic material. Then again, I also I have my own standard by which I set the joker, and looking at every bit of footage that’s available on youtube so far, I still say this looks god-awful. I’m going to see it as part of a twisted experiment, but I won’t be seeing it till week 2 or 3 after release. DC isn’t even a brand I care too much for and on the list of Batman villains, Joker for me ranks somewhere at 4 or 5, so to see this character so detached from his comic self is all the more off putting. If there’s anything I value in Joker, it’s his flamboyant glee and laughter at everything he does and takes part in. If he can’t make me laugh, then as a character, at least to me, he fails and in everything this particular actor seems to do portraying this character just makes me shake head in disappointment. By this standard though, I also hate the Dark Knight Joker, so I realize I could just be set against the norm in opinions, but again it’s just my opinion.

      On a final caveat, I will this regarding a joker origin story, even pertaining to the Killing Joke, a top favorite of mine for animated DC films: I think the Joker is much more powerful WITHOUT an origin. As I look back on him, I remember the joker kind of meaning more, and being all the more intimidating at not having an origin (something the Dark Knight Joker did right at least I feel). By not having an origin, Joker was a sort of existence whose very unknown origins made him a primordial force that while you can combat physically, you will NEVER truly defeat him.

    36. Well done Bob. I really like the film and it does present class issues in a deeper way than Taxi Driver, but it’s not revolutionary like “The Jungle” or “Battleship Potemkin.”

      Here’s my review, mild spoilers.
      https://texshelters.wordpress.com/2019/10/06/joker-what-have-we-learned-a-film-review/

    37. Surely the biggest producers of static and the biggest prodders of such are Disney I mean #NotmyAerial was started by literal bot accounts lol

    38. I liked the movie without going into too much analysis, I thought it was well structured and compelling with a fantastic central performance. Sometimes a movie is just a movie.

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