Indigo_Dingo:
And can I ask people to please stop comparing this thread and the SSBB thread to Halo 3 thread? The two are completely different. He called Halo 3 average, while he called the formers shit and said that only fanboys would buy them. If you want an actual comparison on the other two consoles to the Halo 3 thread, look at the Super Mario Galaxy and Uncharted threads.

When you said "formers" were you just referring to SSBB? If so, yeah, he said it was for fanboys and fanboys alone...However the Halo 3 thing works well in regards to his feelings on MGS 4. He didn't like it, but he essentialy said if you could look past the one glaring problem then it's not a bad game. It has well rounded characters and the controls never get more than a tad annoying.

Regardless, yeah, all of us should stop tossing out other reviews as examples considering they don't really add much to an argument save to say that you found someone who agrees with you. I can't remember if I'm guilty of that as well, but screw it, we're all absolved of that bit of stupid on our records.

Wow. This "conversation" has really gotten out of hand. The only thing that's gotten my care high enough to even write something here in the first place was the idea someone said about Yahtzee not being a a serious game reviewer. He is, just because he's not applying a number to the game or backed up by some corporation doesn't make his review any less credible.

Don't bother replying to my post, after this is up, I'm done with this topic.

Evilducks:

yzzlthtz:
you may have something there. but comparing Halo 3 to MGS4 is like comparing Peanut Butter M&Ms to a 5 Course Italian feast. After eating a bunch of M&Ms, you probably won't have room or appreciation for the feast, but you'll pick at it and make amateur comments about its garishness.

Both stories were equally sci-fi pulpy to me. Neither would entice me to read a book about them. I've read good books, these are not them. They are enjoyable in their own ways, but not literary masterpieces that will be remembered for all time.

huh, yeah, probably.

i meant the game-play more than the story anyways.
everyone seems so obsessed with the story bit. both of these games are way fun with or without the story.
i can't play halo though because >most< fps' make me dizzy and have to yak.
this has made me sad since it limits the games i can play.
because of this, i love me a good 3rd person game. i also love mango smoothies. mm mm. can't get enough of those frozen mangos.

Fair enough, I'll go with the exact words then.

"I'm going to recount as much of the story as I can before my brain starts to hurt. Solid Snake is a cloned mercenary who is suffering from premature aging due to a planned obsolescence scheme worthy of Microsoft. He lives with his support character and "Best Friend" Otakon and the two of them have adopted a child together. That oozing sound you just heard was made by all the worlds homo-erotic fanfiction writers simultaneously emitting torrents of hot lady spunk. Anyway, Solid Snake is tasked with the assassination of his evil cloned brother, who was dead, but lives on through his possessed arm which was grafted onto the body of OH CHRIST! I can't go on. This shit is Bananas!"

"The gameplay is adequate, but severely cluttered..."

"The gameplay is never flawed enough to be a deal breaker, and if you're prepared to forgive the heavy cutscene to gameplay ratio the characters are well rounded and imaginative enough to keep you interested."

From the way he describes it, provided you can get over the slow pacing, dry writing, and somewhat "clusterfucked" story it isn't a terrible game. It comes across the finish line as more of a mediocre game.

If you're the type of person who can not only tolerate, but ENJOY soap-opera level twists and turns in the story and exposition out the ass then the game should be quite enjoyable overall. As stated, the thing that really holds the game back is the story/pacing. If Kojima got that guy with the boots and pruning sheers he could have created a game that appeals to nigh everyone and might just have elevated one particular game to the level of "art".

Personal opinion time, but Kojima seems like a guy with a lot of good ideas and no idea how to deliver them. The guy has talent, but what he needs to do to be an EXCEPTIONAL writer is to trim back some of the fluff and, as far as games go, use the visual aspects of the medium to a greater degree.

Also, BALLS does that man make it hard to create even a quote for.

It's funny how things stop being funny the longer you live with them. Everyone in Britain stopped sniggering at the name "Spotted Dick" by the time I turned twelve. I've almost completely forgotten that Nintendo named a console after a bodily fluid.

And it's funny how we can now hear the words "Solid Snake" without picturing the kind of throbbingly powerful erections you get from wearing skin-tight combat suits while hanging around women who never do their shirts up properly. Yes Metal Gear Solid has joined Devil May Cry Grand Theft Auto and Resident Evil in the elite group of series that have current generation installments with shiny glistening graphics and titles with 4's on the end.

The series sells itself right there under the title as "Tactical Espionage Action" which implies a gritty pulse-pounding sneaky-bollocks runaround and while that's certainly present it always seems to be occupying the same space as a stiff and inefficient third-person shooter and the paranoid manifesto of an Internet conspiracy theorist with several gunmen short of a grassy knoll. I'm going to recount as much of the story as I can before my brain starts to hurt.

Solid Snake is a cloned mercenary who is suffering from premature aging due to a planned obsolescence scheme worthy of Microsoft. He lives with his support character and "best friend" Otacon and the two of them have adopted a child together. That oozing sound you just heard was made by all the world's homoerotic fanfiction writers simultaneously emitting torrents of hot lady spunk.

Anyway Solid Snake is tasked with the assassination of his evil clone brother who is dead but lives on through his possessed arm which was grafted onto the body of OH CHRIST I CAN'T GO ON THIS SHIT IS BANANAS. Play the games yourself if you want to know what's going on although I can't guarantee that that will be enough. To truly get into the mindset of Hideo Kojima you'll have to do something pretty drastic probably involving experimental brain surgery and a complete X-Files boxset.

Kojima's problem is that while he's very much aware that games are a new and exciting media for getting a message across he doesn't have much patience for the whole "game" aspect. In the past I've slagged off a lot of story-based games for having too much story and not enough game but all those previous titles swiftly disappear beneath the waves of Metal Gear Solid's verbal diarrhea.

I actually timed how long it took from pressing New Game to engaging my first enemy: twenty-three cocking minutes. And this is supposed to be the fast-paced action hook to draw you in. Further on some dialogues are long enough to warrant an intermission and refreshment counter and most of them consist of the characters learning things that most of the audience figured out by the first trailer. The funniest part is I was diligently sitting through all the cutscenes and I still wasn't sure what was going on. Somebody once said that a politician is a person who can talk for hours and never actually say anything; if that's true Hideo Kojima could run for government and be Emperor of the Universe by mid-afternoon.

Every now and again though the game snaps you out of your exposition-induced trance and grudgingly lets you actually play it for a bit and in these moments the gameplay is adequate but severely cluttered like it's suffering from the game equivalent of Asperger's syndrome. The sneaking works well but they load you down with a toy box full of gimmicky stealth tools and techniques that you will never ever need to use because you start off with a silenced tranquilizer pistol that can knock out enemy soldiers in one shot and never runs out of ammo breaking the stealth gameplay over its knee with a sickening crack.

There isn't even much sneaking to do compared to previous games; when you're not tripping over cutscenes the emphasis is more on the action than the tactical espionage although it seems no one explained this to the gameplay programmer. The controls are much better suited for sneaking and when action takes over a million petty annoyances nibble at your shins.

Having to press both shoulder buttons and Triangle to aim and fire is not good design. And when you're ducking behind cover you have to stand up before you can fire back which is a good way to get your mustache perforated. When you desperately need to immediately return fire it takes a crucial agonizing second to get Snake to ready his gun presumably for fear of breaking a hip. Luckily this is compensated by most of the enemies being legendarily thick and armored with papier mache.

This is the part where I make gentle coos and reassurances to soften the game up before I drive the last stake through its heart. For all its frustrations the gameplay is never flawed enough to be a deal breaker and if you're prepared to forgive the heavy cutscene:gameplay ratio the characters are well-rounded and imaginative enough to keep you interested.

But here comes the killing blow children. Metal Gear Solid is and has always been very badly written in the same way that the world's largest pie couldn't honestly be called a good pie because it's uneconomical and probably wouldn't fit in an oven. So much of the dialogue is redundant and is in dire need of an editor preferably one armed with waders and pruning shears.

I think it's safe to say that if you're not already a fan you're not welcome at the MGS4 party. The game assumes you know and have accepted all the bullshit that's come before and all the characters who have had a poignant death soliloquy yet show up whether we like it or not including Mr. and Mrs. Oh Christ Not You Cunts Again from Metal Gear Solid 2.

And since I hate redundant dialogue so much I won't redundantly say that fans should buy it because if you're a fan you've already bought it finished it written a plot analysis guide for GameFAQs and are now hiding behind my house trying to decide which window to break. As for the rest of yas play through the previous games first and then check it out assuming they don't bore you so hard that even your unborn children take up tabletop gaming.

Wow...Good for you. I got frustrated at just the three things I was quoting.

C'mon people. It's nearly wednesday morning and you're not at 1000? Do you want a mailbag showdown or not! Get postin!

i liked the long cutscenes. better than the video communication in the past games that told the story. although i didnt like it that i beat the game at like 10:00 pm and didnt finish with the cutscenes till like midnight.. i was tired. the game play was good though. the aiming system wasnt THAT annoying or unplayable, you get used to it.
still i love the review, very witty and funny, like always. keep on doing what your doing yathzee.

yzzlthtz:
huh, yeah, probably.

i meant the game-play more than the story anyways.
everyone seems so obsessed with the story bit. both of these games are way fun with or without the story.
i can't play halo though because >most< fps' make me dizzy and have to yak.
this has made me sad since it limits the games i can play.
because of this, i love me a good 3rd person game. i also love mango smoothies. mm mm. can't get enough of those frozen mangos.

Mango smoothies are amazing. As I've found a brother in the mango smoothie addict world I'll offer advice that got me through my initial FPS issues.

Back when I was younger and experimenting with half life (I think this is the first FPS I played that introduced the 'bouncy' running) I too became ill after play sessions that lasted more than 15 minutes. I found that motion sickness pills helped solve those issues (try to find non-drowsy ones). After a while I'd gotten use to the gameplay and no longer needed the medicine to keep me from getting sick.

It's a shame to pass up good games because your body doesn't agree.

Come on people.

WANT the mailbag showdown
FEEL the mailbay showdown
BE the mailbag showdown

Evilducks:

yzzlthtz:
huh, yeah, probably.

i meant the game-play more than the story anyways.
everyone seems so obsessed with the story bit. both of these games are way fun with or without the story.
i can't play halo though because >most< fps' make me dizzy and have to yak.
this has made me sad since it limits the games i can play.
because of this, i love me a good 3rd person game. i also love mango smoothies. mm mm. can't get enough of those frozen mangos.

Mango smoothies are amazing. As I've found a brother in the mango smoothie addict world I'll offer advice that got me through my initial FPS issues.

Back when I was younger and experimenting with half life (I think this is the first FPS I played that introduced the 'bouncy' running) I too became ill after play sessions that lasted more than 15 minutes. I found that motion sickness pills helped solve those issues (try to find non-drowsy ones). After a while I'd gotten use to the gameplay and no longer needed the medicine to keep me from getting sick.

It's a shame to pass up good games because your body doesn't agree.

You are a scholar and a gentleman, sir, evinced by your appreciation of that most delectable of treats. Can you recommend a good pill brand? i've tried dramamine for car trips, but that stuff knocks me right out.

Half life was the first one to do it to me too. I was able to get through Portal, thank the gods, but half life 2 put me out in under 10 minutes of gun-play. i would like to be able to play bioshock someday as well...

haha good review,
but i am a huge fan of the mgs games, and its true that the storyline is far fetched

I bet my bionic implants that there won't be a mailbag showdown.

And, to reiterate, I fucking loved the whole Metal Gear (Solid) Saga.
It was something different. And still is. And I think it is different 'in a good way'.
And much better than Haze or any other mediocre crap yatzhee been reviewing lately.

MGS is alright for what it is, but nothing really more in my eyes. When I play it, it's like reading a book by rolling dice to work out what page to go to next. I LIKE it when a story line makes me think, I don't need everything whispered in my ear to make sure I get it. But when things take an epic turn for the fucking retarded (read: Halo 3) I get quite bored quite quickly.

Metal Gear Solid 4 was a breath-taking, cinematic, experience which tied up all the loose ends and gave fans everything they'd wanted, plus more - I won't go into details for the sake of keeping this spoiler free.

The gameplay's an improvement on the already great formula that's won fans over in the first place, when you add in the unlockable guns and the like, it's also got a fair bit of replay value.

I feel this game deserved a much better review and Yahtzee's going for controversy just to get more hits. I'm honestly disappointed in him, as he used to give cynical, yet justified, and honest reviews.

I actually signed up to this website to tell you all how fucking stupid you are, seriously.
First of all I don't think this game was better than the others, although I do think it was a masterpiece.
Secondly, you idiots crying about it not making sense because you haven't played the others? Hey idiots - it's a fucking series. Try reading Return of the King before reading the other two first, what? It makes no sense? Well done dipshits.
Thirdly if you want a story that's logical and stays in the box go read a novel by John Grisham.
Fourthly the gameplay is not 2 hours long, you're a simpleton. It's atleast 12 hours if you're not cheating or replaying the game.
Fifthly the AI is anything but "moronic." If an enemy thinks they've spotted something they'll check the area in which that was then the immediate area surrounding it.
Sixthly "The game isn't about stealth it's about timing" Hey moron. I think timing your movements to avoid the enemy spotting you or tracing you is about as close to "Stealth" as you can get.
Seventhly I do agree that the controls were slightly confusing, but after about a 1/3 of act 1 I soon got to grips with it.
Eightly the musical scoring for this game was nothing but incredible. Do yourself a favour and buy the OST for this game, the amount of effort and work gone into such a backlaying element to it is pioneering.
I don't think this game was the best game ever etc etc but it deserves much more praise than you fucking idiots are giving it. Yahtzee was right about a few things but if he doesn't like Dialogue in one game but loves it in another he needs to get a new job.

Did.... did he say badly written? Did he seriously say badly written and honestly mean it?

...

It's like he's.... 700 pounds too thick and behind mile wide, sound proof wall... I used to think he was pretty smart.

I didn't exactly agree with the gameplay points (transquilzer bullets only put people to sleep in one hit if you're on easy. Get some skills, Yahtzee. XD) but he made me laugh. I was expecting to be completely offended.

haha good review i laughed my (body part) off

SAccharing10:
I actually signed up to this website to tell you all how fucking stupid you are, seriously.
First of all I don't think this game was better than the others, although I do think it was a masterpiece.
Secondly, you idiots crying about it not making sense because you haven't played the others? Hey idiots - it's a fucking series. Try reading Return of the King before reading the other two first, what? It makes no sense? Well done dipshits.
Thirdly if you want a story that's logical and stays in the box go read a novel by John Grisham.
Fourthly the gameplay is not 2 hours long, you're a simpleton. It's atleast 12 hours if you're not cheating or replaying the game.
Fifthly the AI is anything but "moronic." If an enemy thinks they've spotted something they'll check the area in which that was then the immediate area surrounding it.
Sixthly "The game isn't about stealth it's about timing" Hey moron. I think timing your movements to avoid the enemy spotting you or tracing you is about as close to "Stealth" as you can get.
Seventhly I do agree that the controls were slightly confusing, but after about a 1/3 of act 1 I soon got to grips with it.
Eightly the musical scoring for this game was nothing but incredible. Do yourself a favour and buy the OST for this game, the amount of effort and work gone into such a backlaying element to it is pioneering.
I don't think this game was the best game ever etc etc but it deserves much more praise than you fucking idiots are giving it. Yahtzee was right about a few things but if he doesn't like Dialogue in one game but loves it in another he needs to get a new job.

And just when I thought this thread had evolved into rational discussions over mango smoothies...

1) That's a nice opinion. Good for you.

2) The point wasn't that it "didn't make sense" the point was that it was such a clusterfuck that the sheer amount of information that was required to play as well as the torrent being thrown at you made the games story overly convoluted. To top it off, Yahtzee has at least played MGS 2 from the look of things and may have actually played them all.

3) Uh, think you've got something wrong there chief. "Logic" that wiley bastard, is required for ALL good writing. Even joke a day strips require a certain logic to them.

4) Oooor not? Since there appears to be a trophy for beating it in five hours, let's say the gameplay is six or seven...maybe eight.

5) That's fairly stupid. If you get shot, you aren't going to just go "Hey, bullets. Better check that shit out." You're going to go "AH, GODDAMN! Motherfuckers shooting at us. Tell me when you find him so I can get a few shots in, and don't stop till he's found...motherfucker shot me in the ass. I'll show him..." Hiding in an empty drum should never be a good way to escape from people, for obvious reasons.

6) It's not about stealth period. The timing only works its way in on the harder difficulties. On normal you get enough weapons and health items to simultaneously level a small island and then bring half the population back to life only to kill them once again with the remaining bullets.

7) It's nice you came to grips with it. It still qualifies as a flaw though.

8) Nifty, something only tangentially related to anything people have said. Woo. The soundtrack may be the "bees knees" but it's not utilized to its fullest, which is odd considering the music usage in MGS 3.

In conclusion, read some of the actual arguments here you tosser before coming in with a "holier than thou" attitude. You got half the things people were saying wrong and to top it off end on one of the most nonsensical lines ever. By that logic if you don't like the dialog in a badly translated Japanese hentai game but love the dialog in something else, you need to look for a new job. Inherent humor of bad translations aside, dialog and it's appropriate uses differ from game to game.

Shia-Neko-Chan:
Did.... did he say badly written? Did he seriously say badly written and honestly mean it?

...

It's like he's.... 700 pounds too thick and behind mile wide, sound proof wall... I used to think he was pretty smart.

I didn't exactly agree with the gameplay points (transquilzer bullets only put people to sleep in one hit if you're on easy. Get some skills, Yahtzee. XD) but he made me laugh. I was expecting to be completely offended.

...Here, I'll make this simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_Ocelot
http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Revolver_Ocelot

Read those. Instead of having me write everything out, again, just read those synopsis on Ocelot. Afterwards, come back and decide whether the Metal Gear Series actually has brilliant writing. I'm not saying the writing is god awful, mind you, just very, very clusterfuck-ey...I doubt that's a real word, but you get the idea. The writing could be exponentially improved if if was cut down a bit. It has the same problems as novels like "The Silmarillion" Its got a lot of good ideas, but terrible delivery.

Really though, why couldn't we let this go at the mango posts? I was hoping to end on a high note and came back to find this.

I've read it before, played MGS1, 2, and 3, yet I disagree. I think the delivery is great in the MGS series. It keeps you completely interested until the very end, and even inspires some to decode and understand the whole story (Most or all details, which inspires a lot of thought. Thought-inspiring work is great work.) of MGS. There's a short version (Ocelot is evil) and a hidden long version (Wikipedia Ocelot: War and Peace) for those who are interested. You can take MGS1 and understand its story as it's given to you or you can play MG1 and 2 and link all of them together, but that's not necessarily needed in order to understand it.

Having more details doesn't make writing bad. It makes a story feel more like it takes place in a functioning world. In fact, a lot of people seem to enjoy stories with large amounts of details, which is proven by the many fans that analyze and debate the plot-points in MGS (which requires a lot of thought), and the fact that MGS is so popular.

What I really want to know is why you think the delivery is poor? I probably won't debate it. I don't have that much time, but I'm just interested.

My main source of support for Metal Gear Solid actually comes from Soul Reaver.

I love Soul Reaver. I love Soul Reaver 2. I love the latter in particular despite the abhorrant eyesore that is the gaming design.

Soul Reaver had fantastic gameplay elements, an exciting world to explore, and was absolutely breathtaking in everyway. Soul Reaver 2 consisted of running up and down the same map over and over. The gameplay was also disappointingly short.

However, the story was flawless. I watched the commentary where a voice actor jokes "I'm not used to this, it's like a film script! Normally when I work on a game, it's nice and simple. 'Open that door! Don't open that door! Kill that fucking monster!'"

Soul Reaver has dialogue so complex you have to play with a dictionary on hand to understand what the hell was just said. It is beautiful, moving stuff all the way through.

That was enough to make me love the series. The fact Soul Reaver 2 is boring to play is more than made up for by the fact it is a joy to watch.

Metal Gear Solid 4 is NOT boring to play. It is actually fun to play. It is also gripping in its plot, if a little long-winded in places. It's certainly not Soul Reaver level of storyline, but it's the closest you'll get.

Shia-Neko-Chan:
I've read it before, played MGS1, 2, and 3, yet I disagree. I think the delivery is great in the MGS series. It keeps you completely interested until the very end, and even inspires some to decode and understand the whole story (Most or all details, which inspires a lot of thought. Thought-inspiring work is great work.) of MGS. There's a short version (Ocelot is evil) and a hidden long version (Wikipedia Ocelot: War and Peace) for those who are interested. You can take MGS1 and understand its story as it's given to you or you can play MG1 and 2 and link all of them together, but that's not necessarily needed in order to understand it.

Having more details doesn't make writing bad. It makes a story feel more like it takes place in a functioning world. In fact, a lot of people seem to enjoy stories with large amounts of details, which is proven by the many fans that analyze and debate the plot-points in MGS (which requires a lot of thought), and the fact that MGS is so popular.

What I really want to know is why you think the delivery is poor? I probably won't debate it. I don't have that much time, but I'm just interested.

Ugh in both Metal Gear Solid games i've played (1 & 2) i end up skipping most cutscenes simply put, they're boring, they definetaly don't keep me interested, and they're too long. Also i skip most of the codec calls to. Don't get me wrong i do like Metal Gear Solid, and some of the cutscenes are interesting, but i do agree with Yahtzee some are very badly written, long and boring. Hearing Meryl's life story did not keep me interested.
Hearing Raiden and Rose argue over the codec is boring as hell too. I could go on but i won't.
Also Metal Gear Solid 2's story lost me after i boarded arsenal gear as naked Raiden. Oh and stop using the Patriots as a quick fix for everything bad that happens Kojima.

All in all, the series is ok, i forgive some cutscenes and the characters aren't all bad, but like Yahtzee said, the writing needes an editor.

I say it again
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
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Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
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Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year
Game of the year

personaly i like the game, and the story and gameplay is one of the best. Not at all cliche.
and that is my opinion.

and I think that yahtzee's vids are hilarious, for stating his opinions in a "relate to something similar" way.

for the people that complain... if you are mad at his reviews, what are you going to do about it? he is not going to post a vid on how sorry he is then say it was good. besides if was nice all of the time then people will complain how bad the game is. think about it.

oh yah one person was complaining about the control mechanics,
In japan, people are not allowed to own guns, only the police.
so it is difficult to have a feel for a gun mechanic, when it is underused unlike the states.
from that, thay have more time with RPGs, while the states, work mostly on shooters.

sorry in advance if i talked too much. hehe

CarbonDragon:

for the people that complain... if you are mad at his reviews, what are you going to do about it? he is not going to post a vid on how sorry he is then say it was good. besides if was nice all of the time then people will complain how bad the game is. think about it.

And hell, at least he gives good reasons if he complains. It's a big contrast to his more sycophantic fan base who say they hate popular games just so it gives them some kind of indie cred.

I haven't actually played MGS 4, so what you're about to read is someone who TRIED to get into the franchise, but had to walk away.... as the cutscene are STILL going. *MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS*

My Experience: Played "a bit" of MGS 1 at a friend's house during a party, therefore not the right atmosphere to get into a game more about sneaking around than the usual "shoot everyone that moves" plan. Didn't play MGS 2. BEAT MGS 3 and when I say "beat" I mean as a regular gamer that didn't want the monkey camo or any other super special camo that you have to spend another 15-25 minutes looking for just so I can say "I have the Japan flag camo YAY!" and get this, I, y'know KILLED people because what else would you do with a sniper rifle, automatics, bombs, etc.? In other words, I am not one of these Super Gamers that posted their vids on Youtube which is both impressive yet sad at the same time. Everything else about the series I learned from Wikipedia and Youtube.

When I rented Snake Eater, I felt like I could finally join in the hype and not act like Psycho Mantis shook my controller for the sake of conversation because I was playing wannabe-Sonic games (i.e. Punky Skunk) back in '98, plus with this being a PREQUEL I wouldn't feel as lost. Things were going ok, I hid, I plugged some head with darts, I shot out some radios and hid again and in a matter of cutscenes, began to sit beside myself, Gamer and Viewer.

Gamer: Hey, what'd I miss?
Viewer: It's beautiful. Snake's having this moment with EVA.
Gamer: Ok, for how long?
Viewer: (looks at clock) I guess about 15min. Time sure does fly.
Gamer: O...k. Have you noticed anything else?
Viewer: Huh?
Gamer: YOU PUT THE CONTROLLER DOWN AND KICKED BACK! You've spent almost half an hour staring at the screen WITHOUT PAUSING.
Viewer: Whoa. So I did. And?
Gamer: AND you rented a GAME, not a DVD (movie.) As in, you rented a GAME to PLAY, not a movie that occasionally lets you zoom into cleavage or wet granny panties.
Viewer: But it's so pretty and involving!
Gamer: Pretty, yes, involving HELL NO. Two hours have gone by and we're still plugging grunts. In God of War, the Hydra and a mountain of undead would be long dead and those twins would've been done about 5 times over.

Once that mental issue died down, I noticed just like Yahtzee pointed out that the game kinda groans about letting you actually play it like it wants to gush its life story for the rest of the week, so I go back to shooting soldiers, killing The Pain, killing The Fear (without getting the infrared goggles,) resetting the PS2 clock to make The End die of old age and watching karma/Kojima scold me for KILLING DURING A WAR as The Sorrow brings back EVERY guy I slaughtered, intentionally or otherwise (because I forgot/didn't care about choking people out instead of throat-slitting.) The game eventually ends with one or two more cutscenes which now feel more satisfying since the game's over and you can restart with the Patriot gun, which has infinite ammo... yet the game/franchise DISCOURAGES killing EVERYONE even the mutant/supernatural bosses.

I've pretty much seen all the significant cutscenes and STILL needed Wiki to straighten things out from the deluge of dialogue to basically learn that the entire franchise is based on one woman's (The Joy/Boss) dream of soldiers getting treated right getting repeatedly bastardized by people and machines. The key problem is that in order to fully understand the weight of this revelation you have to play EVERY Metal Gear even the PSP games as even the non-canon games have some relevance whether its a wannabe-Metal Gear weapon or a villain that ALMOST accomplished what the main guys did. In other words, if you missed the appetizers, LEAVE THE PARTY NOW! Naturally the game sold well in the U.S. and Japan because of its loyal fanbase, BUT it could've gone even farther if a newbie could be introduced to the franchise without feeling more lost than being dumped into the wrong part of town in a country that doesn't speak your language. You can play RE4, Bioshock and GTA4 without a BIT of previous history and not feel left out.

Then there's the technicals. Minutes of loading and hour-long cutscenes on the PS3 sounds like a bad joke to anyone who didn't buy the big, black behemoth specifically for MGS4. The defenders say "Well you can skip the cutscenes!" which with any other game (ANY Resident Evil game) would be fine, but MGS has ALWAYS been about the story, hence the infamous "more movie than game" title its made for itself. I love a good story in a game as much as the next guy (ok, MORE than the average guy, but a lot less than a JRPG fangirl,) but when you can eat a full meal, go to the bathroom, come back and the cutscene is STILL going, it's too damn long no matter how great its touted to be. Save for the content and load times, the same thing happened in Kingdom Hearts, people fawned over the blissed-out Final Fantasy/Disney crossover, but when FOUR HOURS goes by before you're kicking Heartless/Nobody ass, it has been WAY too long. Again, Yahtzee clearly pointed out how Kojima wants to use gaming as a new medium for storytelling yet at the same time doesn't really want to let gamers... game. So basically Kojima, the guy who did Kingdom Hearts and probably others are frustrated movie directors and before anyone accuses me of fanboyism, I KNOW Dave Jaffe truly wanted to be a movie director and focused that energy into God of War, but he also knew when to let you kill Ares and not just watch him.

Yeah I know this went on a little bit long, but its fitting for an infamously long series.

HAHAHAHA - LOL - seriously. I mean what a reply, made my day - first off don't quote my threads if you're a fucking idiot like this guy. "it's not about stealth on easy difficulties" well of course it's not going to be fuckwit, because that's what it's meant to be, easy. The thing about the gameplay, I think the "you're a simpleton" needs to be reapplied. If you're "REPLAYING" the game, that means knowing where all the enemies are and knowing what to do. I know there's a fucking reward for doing it in 5 hours but if you do that on hard or even normal the first time round you're Johnathon wendle, Half-life was done in 28 minutes, does that mean it has 2 hours gameplay? :(

Kshandamionreal, I've got to say I like your outsider's view.

Myself, I bought the first MGS when it came out, and I bought it cold. I'd heard one or two passing comments about it being "a cool game", but that was it.

It blew me away.

Metal Gear Solid 2 was going to be amazing. I remember the hype. I remember how much I wanted it. I wanted it like a lonely teenager wants sex. Alas, when I did get it, I got a short sequence of awesomeness (the Tanker) and a load of crap (the Plant). The mechanics were brilliant, no question, but I hated so much about the game; I hated playing as a whiney faggot, I hated the convoluted and frankly retarded storyline. I hated so much about that game.

When I looked at Metal Gear Solid 3, I was in love again. This was a PREQUAL! We get to PLAY AS SNAKE! There is no Raiden! That sold me on its own!

But then we get Metal Gear Solid 4. At first, I wasn't interested. MGS2 had scarred me, and all the vids I saw only strengthened my conviction that I shouldn't buy this game; it was all "Look how cool Raiden is now!" and "look! Snake's shooting himself in the head!"
That's not how a I want a game promoted. Kojima has this masterful ability to be utterly retarded when showing off a game. His lies with MGS2 and "hiding" Raiden almost ruined the game series for me, and it was not until I actually got to read the synopsis of MGS4's plot and learn what it really involved that I relented and bought it.

If it were not for people handing out spoilers, I'd still be branding Kojima a fucktard. THAT, I feel, is MGS4's greatest failing; the guy doesn't know how to give facts.

The problem I've always had with Metal Gear Solid games is not the dialogue - never had a problem with listening to long conversations.

The only problem I have is how stupid the game can be. Sometimes, the game can be great - the game can be extremely atmospheric and can explore unique and meaningful ideas. But sometimes... the game just looks and sounds stupid.

For example:

1) The Name Big Boss. I've always hated this name. He's supposed to be the world's greatest mercenary, the greatest soldier.... and his name is BIG BOSS. Every single time the voice-actors say the words "Big Boss", I wonder how it is that they don't die from embarrassment. It's a really, really, stupid name. If it had just been "The Boss" (I know that was the name he used in MSG3 for that woman), it would have been better. Big Boss just sounds sill.

2) Old eye-patch man in a flying octopus suit (with flames), screaming "STUPID MACHINES!!!". That scene just speaks for itself. It felt embarrassing to WATCH.

3) Possessed Arms. I know it explains it away in MSG4, but when I was playing MSG2 and that part came up in the tanker mission..... ugh. I didn't know whether or cringe or laugh.

4) SHOW ME YOUR RAGE!!! is stupid, no matter how you try to deliver the line.

5) Johnny Sasaki needing to go to the bathroom every 2 seconds, was stupid. I know it's his character, but honestly, he had stomach pains EVERY SINGLE TIME THE CAMERA was on him. So Kojima creates this incredibly atmospheric game, great music, great voice actors, great graphics - you feel as if you are sneaking around the war-torn middle east, listening to the bullets go by your head, the sound of distant explosions.... and suddenly you find Sasaki having constipation in a metal can. Yeah. Way to go. Really improves the atmosphere.

The Metal Gear Solid series does have some incredibly good parts, incredibly well-designed characters and plot lines. It has much more good than bad. But some parts.... I mean, who honestly thinks "SHOW ME YOUR RAGE!!!" is a good line? Why the hell did Solidus have to strap on that ridiculous Octopus suit (with flames coming out the back). Did Kojima really think the name "Big Boss" sounds good? It sounds stupid.

The Metal Gear Solid games are 80% fantastic, 20% sheer embarrassment. Kojima's "Wacky" humor destroys the atmosphere on any number of occasions. It would be like putting jokes in a serious war drama - like putting constipation jokes in the middle of "Saving Private Ryan". It just doesn't work.

It's a real shame - the Metal Gear Solid games are great, for the most part. They come very close to being classified as "art". Then Kojima makes toilet jokes and gives a character the name "Big Boss". Ugh.

I agree with Korolev completely.

(It seems that the person who wants to post first must have a permaban wish.)

Shia-Neko-Chan:
I've read it before, played MGS1, 2, and 3, yet I disagree. I think the delivery is great in the MGS series. It keeps you completely interested until the very end, and even inspires some to decode and understand the whole story (Most or all details, which inspires a lot of thought. Thought-inspiring work is great work.) of MGS. There's a short version (Ocelot is evil) and a hidden long version (Wikipedia Ocelot: War and Peace) for those who are interested. You can take MGS1 and understand its story as it's given to you or you can play MG1 and 2 and link all of them together, but that's not necessarily needed in order to understand it.

Having more details doesn't make writing bad. It makes a story feel more like it takes place in a functioning world. In fact, a lot of people seem to enjoy stories with large amounts of details, which is proven by the many fans that analyze and debate the plot-points in MGS (which requires a lot of thought), and the fact that MGS is so popular.

What I really want to know is why you think the delivery is poor? I probably won't debate it. I don't have that much time, but I'm just interested.

The delivery is poor because it force feeds you all this information. If it was all background things you had to look up I'd have slightly less issue with it. It would still be roundabout like a carousel, but at least it wouldn't beat the information into your head.

Delivery is knowing when enough is enough, and too much is too much. Take Mass effect as an example. It got overly verbose at times, but imagine if it tried to include that database into the cutscenes. It would be mind numbing. It's nice to have a fully fleshed out world, but having the ideas crammed down your throat lesses the effect.

Going further, the sheer level of "He did it, no he did, no him etc..." gets to such an absurd level it breaks the "functioning realism" aspect the game goes for. I can suspend disbelief so far, but taking Ocelot as a kind of personification of the story, it gets to be wa-haaay too over the top.

SAccharing10:
HAHAHAHA - LOL - seriously. I mean what a reply, made my day - first off don't quote my threads if you're a fucking idiot like this guy. "it's not about stealth on easy difficulties" well of course it's not going to be fuckwit, because that's what it's meant to be, easy. The thing about the gameplay, I think the "you're a simpleton" needs to be reapplied. If you're "REPLAYING" the game, that means knowing where all the enemies are and knowing what to do. I know there's a fucking reward for doing it in 5 hours but if you do that on hard or even normal the first time round you're Johnathon wendle, Half-life was done in 28 minutes, does that mean it has 2 hours gameplay? :(

...Well, you didn't ignore the bulk of what I said at all...And it wasn't a "thread' it was a "reply" or "comment" Just throwing that out there chief. Considering your lack of understanding of my post on the whole, I figured I should clarify everything in case you decide to attempt a reply.

I find it ironic you refer to me as an "idiot" yet you can't figure out the "Stealth on easy difficulties" line was about stealth being irrelevant at any level of difficulty other than the hardest ones. I guess being a fan of MGS doesn't make you any more intelligent or able to grasp ideas...pity...Anyway, normal plays more like you're rambo with the sheer amount of bullets you can fling at people. When you can run around like a chicken with it's head cut off spraying bullets wildly about on normal difficulty, stealth has officially left the building unless you REALLY feel like sneaking around and even then it's no longer a core part of gameplay, asshat.

Nowhere did I say "replaying the game". At least get your complaints right. If you knew where everything was any complaints about the stealth aspect would be..lessened. Take Siphon Filter. You can know where the shit is in the earlier games and still have it go balls up because of something small, needle dick.

As for the last comment, yeah, it could have 2 hours gameplay, but that isn't the point. The point is that when you cut out all the cinematic of the game, you're left with a relatively short play. Now, 5 hours is the "crazy obsessive" level, but tacking on an extra three hours or so for people who have an understanding of what they're dealing with is about right. Let us even go so far as to say 10 hours. That's still not much. Hell, you get almost that much time when playing "Alter Echo" on normal, whorey bastard..

See, I can toss random insults into things as well. See, the key to using them EFFECTIVELY though, is to use them only when being especially vehement or pointing out a glaring flaw.

Shit, Yahtzee, either you didn't play it enough or you just never learned to shoot in the game. You don't press that many buttons.

Rest assured your "LOL UR SO RITE YAHTZEE XD XD" friends will still believe everything you say.