Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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Eamar:

Angryman101:

Things are BETTER? Things are worse than fucking every. More women are unhappy, and more are on antidepressants than ever before. The only people things today are good for are attractive, intelligent men. Why is that? Because feminism. So, good job to feminists, I guess. lol.

Aaaaaand let's all stop feeding this guy. Any semblance of credibility has been lost. Good job.

I think you're implying that I'm a troll, but I'm not. Just a guy who hates feminism.

The thing is, if "everyone already knows" that sexism in video games is a problem- why does the subject still attract such hostility? Why do people feel as though they personally are being attacked and have to respond in such a scorched earth manner?

Nobody is going to take all the cheesecake models away, nobody is going to make all male characters weak, nobody is coming for your copy of Bayonetta. (Hell, Bayonetta often gets let off easy in discussions about video game gender roles because it's so plainly absurd even by video game standards.) There's no reason for this hostility. Feminists take issue with sexism in other media too, it's not like they drove all the pretty girls off TV.

(Hell, feminists have a variety of perspectives on how this stuff works and should be handled! The image of someone completely opposed to sex in media or pretty women on TV is largely a stereotype of the second-wave feminists of the 70s- some of whom were radical, some of whom weren't- but third wave feminism explicitly acknowledges the diversity in a movement that's defined only by "women should be treated as equals". There are even feminists who are pro-porn. You can't generalize.)

As for the 70K, I see it as little different from a novelist getting an advance. The money is not for production values, it's to live on. It's support so she can keep doing this without a day job. If you don't like what she does with that time, fine, but I don't like a lot of the books that get written either. Doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to at least try.

As for "It's Youtube", well, that's a problem, see. It may not be a new problem, but a continuing problem is still a problem.

Jiggy:

It's fine, you didn't offend me or anything, I just don't like it when people pretend they didn't mean to insult as a means to cover their asses. If that honestly wasn't your intention then I also apologize for accusing it of you.

I understand, appreciated :)

Alyx also seems pretty tall, slim and tall, give her a boob job and lose the jacket and swap the jeans for shorts and I don't think she would look that different from Lara.

That's a hell of a lot of alterations you've got to make there, so I'm still claiming success.

Bayonetta as to my knowledge (not a console gamer) is pretty much all about sexualization, doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.

True enough, she's just one of the more well-known examples hence why she popped into my head.

Anyway, regarding breast size (in reference to Lara) having large breats isn't exactly unnatural, my fiance has pretty large breasts, bigger then Laras, all natural.

Again, agreed. Let's just say I have... first hand experience of this sort of thing. Bigger boobs are not in and of themselves a bad thing, it's when they're dressed up in a chainmail bikini or some sort of belt that it becomes a problem (depending on the context of the game, of course).

Alyx seems to be comparitively flat-chested...wait, I kind of lost track of what point I was going to make. Anyway, Alyx is fine, that's why it felt it worth bringing up other Valve Characters. If women can complain about stereotypes in games, I can too :P

And bringing the developer into this proves nothing. The point of me giving these examples was so I could demonstrate the sort of characters I'd like to see more of.

I didn't do so to prove a point, more to illustrate that Alyx pretty much has to be a good Character because none of the males that Valve makes could carry the game all too well.

Fair enough.

Samus: I deliberately specified original Samus. That is, pre-Other M Samus. You say you're aware of the controversy, so you'll know the zero suit and her character in general in that game is considered an insult to the original character. So your comments are all valid, but do not relate to my example. And no she doesn't speak, she's another example of a silent protagonist. The point is that, once her gender was revealed, male players were not alienated by a female PC.

Which I don't find all that surprising considering that the better the ending the less Samus would be wearing.

Touche. However, in subsequent games this was not the case, and plenty of men played those games fully aware of her gender, even becoming dedicated fans who were insulted by Other M.

Kat: I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. That's not meant to be an insult, it just seems like you're reaching.

Actually that was a honest question, don't you think that the (in my eyes apparent) role reversal could be considered pandering?

I have to say that thought hadn't crossed my mind at all. While "techy" stuff has been traditionally male-dominated that's less and less the case as time moves on. I'd have thought it could be considered more "pandering" in terms of role-reversal if they'd made her some sort of bodyguard or gunner or something. And even I'm not convinced it'd be pandering. In short, no I don't agree with you on this one. Frankly, I don't think Halo (much as I love it) is that subtle. Interesting thought though.

Wynne: what sort of criticism is that? Yes, that's a woman. An old woman who hasn't been prettied up. What's your point?

Simply that she doesn't look like a woman, not like a woman that is old and hasn't been prettied up, simply not like a woman, more like a late change male to female transgender. Shouldn't a woman atleast look like a woman? She isn't simply ugly or something, she just doesn't seem to have a womanly face, that looks like a mans face to me.

I think that has more to do with the game's graphics/aesthetics than anything. I did notice that a lot of the faces looked a bit odd up close.

I'd read it, honestly, but TVTropes is probably the best site to distract me and I have a few 3D Models to finish.

I'll admit, I was reticent about linking to TVTropes since this is a common problem :P

Thanks for being reasonable and accepting my apologies. I'm always glad when I see proof that the internet doesn't have to devolve into anger and flaming...

Kahunaburger:

CosmicCommander:
I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

Seriously? I don't think I need to sincerely answer that question. More and more games, coming from the younger fringe are more reflective of our sickeningly dull reality. I won't comprehensively list the indie games, as those are mostly respectful and pleasant to everyone and everything. But stuff like LA Noire (it's a pretty realistic and respectful portrayal of the attitudes of the time), Bethesda's product, Heavy Rain, and the like of stuff pouring from the perhaps more sophisticated development houses is all over making everyone happy.

I really don't see a need to point all the games out that are more and more respectful to everyone. I know a lot of people want to try to make out the discrimination of the industry is still rampant, and it is in some quarters, but let's not say there's no tolerant content on the market.

Jesus, remember the days when people would respond to invalid arguments with valid rebuttals instead of personal attacks and a platter full of logical fallacies?

Me neither, but that would be nice wouldn't it?

i am not going any part of this sexism "debate" shit storm
but really this project got about $60000 when the minimum was 6000
what gullible fuckers gave money her that money?

i know how to do what she is being paid for
and it requires the internet and if you look on the internet and you will find everything her documentry will have for free

what i could find in a short amount of time

first here are the tropes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysFemale

now how to make a true female character
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters

there you saved your self money

CosmicCommander:

Kahunaburger:

CosmicCommander:
I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

Seriously? I don't think I need to sincerely answer that question. More and more games, coming from the younger fringe are more reflective of our sickeningly dull reality.

CosmicCommander:
LA Noire (it's a pretty realistic and respectful portrayal of the attitudes of the time),

Haven't played that one, so I can't comment.

CosmicCommander:
Bethesda's product,

Elder Scrolls games were relatively egalitarian since Morrowind, so I'm not sure this can be raised as an example of a "new" phenomenon.

CosmicCommander:
Heavy Rain,

Not based on what I've heard about it.

CosmicCommander:
let's not say there's no tolerant content on the market.

This I agree with. But it's not the norm, and I'm not quite sure how someone gets tired of games not having a particular type of bad writing.

Angryman101:

Eamar:

Angryman101:

Things are BETTER? Things are worse than fucking every. More women are unhappy, and more are on antidepressants than ever before. The only people things today are good for are attractive, intelligent men. Why is that? Because feminism. So, good job to feminists, I guess. lol.

Aaaaaand let's all stop feeding this guy. Any semblance of credibility has been lost. Good job.

I think you're implying that I'm a troll, but I'm not. Just a guy who hates feminism.

Well, if you're not just trying to get a reaction you sure as hell better be prepared to back up your claims about how feminism has caused women's lives to get worse somehow. Are you saying we'd all be happier if we were shackled to the kitchen and reduced to baby factories? Because feminism started in a time where women who weren't happy about this were literally treated as mentally ill.

To address one claim you made, more women (more people period) are on anti-depressants than ever before because anti-depressants are more available and more readily prescribed than ever before. If you can link those facts to feminism, be my guest. Until then I'll leave this here:

Reincarnatedwolfgod:
i am not going any part of this sexism "debate" shit storm
but really this project got about $60000 when the minimum was 6000
what gullible fuckers gave money her that money?

i know how to do what she is being paid for
and it requires the internet and if you look on the internet and you will find everything her documentry will have for free

what i could find in a short amount of time

first here are the tropes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysFemale

now how to make a true female character
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters

there you saved your self money

I actually would have given her some money if I had any to spare at the moment. what she seems to be doing is offering analysis and logic in discussing gaming and it's tropes. TV trops doesn't do that, it's a simple list. She doesn't seem to be bashing game as a whole, and from what I can tell in the video actually likes playing games.

Kahunaburger:

CosmicCommander:
I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

I don't think he was serious. Im actually pretty sure that he was just being factitious

edit: im wrong

Phasmal:

Rakor:

Whoa, simmer down Nancy. It just kind of sticks out a bit especially when there's a closeup on the controller. I apparently also find the fingernails a bit gaudy, I guess. Now, as all you've done is mock a side point I made, I don't know which side of the fence you are on in this issue. But, you are making the assertion that the existence of elements of a stereotype does not proclaim acceptance of said stereotype. So what's wrong with video game characters exhibiting them. Princess Peach is not a portrayal of women, she is a portrayal of one fictional woman, named Princess Peach. Why is it an issue that she wears heels (among other things but you get what I mean).

Lol, I did get a bit hyperbolic. Pardon me, I've been bored senseless all day.

The problem isn't that these tropes exist at all, it's that female characters contribution to gaming can be pretty much summed up in one word (`Boing`). Real people are more complicated than that. Hardly anyone really conforms to one stereotype.
Female characters with a bit more depth and variety really is what I'm pushing for. Moviebob's Gender Games episode did a good job of addressing that.

Alright, then what is the point of this girl making videos about current stereotypical archetypes. If the issue is needing more deep female characters, then what is this girl making video's to "break down" known archetypes for? On that note......they're known archetypes, what is there to break down if they're already the popular archetypes. Wouldn't a kickstarter be better used to like, make a new game or help fund a company(s) making a game with a deep female protagonist. How is getting the internet to pay her to make a handful of ranting videos helping diversify the field.

I mean agreed, deeper, less formulaic characters are good. Brave looks kinda cool. I cringed too seeing that it's already a doll. Point is being against this particular girl's project.

I would like to see a game with a true female protagonist, as opposed to character created female leads like in Mass Effect. Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

Unrelated to the quote response:

Wow the post above where I'm currently typing is angry as hell. Chill pills people. Vulgar language does not assist either side here. Love when people turn around and stereotype the gaming community in response to stereotypes. Someone saying f the gaming community in response to some being jerks is kinda putting yourself on the same level. Do I think all women belong in the kitchen? No. Unless they like to cook. Then good on ya.

On a related note I totally thought "ovendodger" was a crack about women and kitchens, at first. I am feel dumb.

Rakor:
I would like to see a game with a true female protagonist, as opposed to character created female leads like in Mass Effect. Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

Haha, could you see someone trying to float that one by John Riccitiello?

"What do you mean we don't have a roided-up male to put on the box? But if she's on a glider, how can she take cover? Female characters wear practical armor when the situation calls for it? There's no final boss? We can't turn this into a franchise?"

Rakor:
Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

I'm glad you mentioned manga, cause the movie turned her into a Mary Sue, which isn't exactly the best way to portray a female.

Rakor:

Alright, then what is the point of this girl making videos about current stereotypical archetypes. If the issue is needing more deep female characters, then what is this girl making video's to "break down" known archetypes for? On that note......they're known archetypes, what is there to break down if they're already the popular archetypes. Wouldn't a kickstarter be better used to like, make a new game or help fund a company(s) making a game with a deep female protagonist. How is getting the internet to pay her to make a handful of ranting videos helping diversify the field.

I mean agreed, deeper, less formulaic characters are good. Brave looks kinda cool. I cringed too seeing that it's already a doll. Point is being against this particular girl's project.

I would like to see a game with a true female protagonist, as opposed to character created female leads like in Mass Effect. Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

Unrelated to the quote response:

Wow the post above where I'm currently typing is angry as hell. Chill pills people. Vulgar language does not assist either side here. Love when people turn around and stereotype the gaming community in response to stereotypes. Someone saying f the gaming community in response to some being jerks is kinda putting yourself on the same level. Do I think all women belong in the kitchen? No. Unless they like to cook. Then good on ya.

On a related note I totally thought "ovendodger" was a crack about women and kitchens, at first. I am feel dumb.

I was never really here to debate her project. You might not see the point in it but obviously some people do. And perhaps breaking down tropes can show perhaps why they are easy to fall into and how to avoid lazy stereotyping *shrug*, but I'm just guessing. I don't get why people are getting so angry about her setting this project up. It's her free time, it's not your money if you donate.

Either way, the response is just bleh, and our community does have some probelms. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've never been called a slut for reading a book or going to see a movie.

Sucks, but is true. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to though, all I think is if me gaming pisses off assholes then I should do it more. =P
And I'm aware not all our community is like this- but it's often overlooked and many people even insist it's not a problem any more.

I've watching some of the previous FF videos, and while I'm not 100% convinced the presenter is the ideal candidate for this project, I'm happy that it's being attempted and looking forward to seeing the finished results.

As horrifying as the misogyny is, I understand that these keyboard-chewers come with the territory. Write about feminism in computer games (fighting games in particular) and you'll attract various disparaging comments from the knuckle dragging fraternity. What I don't get is- where does the "Jew" stuff come from? Is it like a side-effect of Godwin's Law, that as the number of haters in a single arena increases, the likelihood of anti-jewish hatespeech approaches 100%?

-Nick

Eamar:

Well, if you're not just trying to get a reaction you sure as hell better be prepared to back up your claims about how feminism has caused women's lives to get worse somehow. Are you saying we'd all be happier if we were shackled to the kitchen and reduced to baby factories? Because feminism started in a time where women who weren't happy about this were literally treated as mentally ill.

To address one claim you made, more women (more people period) are on anti-depressants than ever before because anti-depressants are more available and more readily prescribed than ever before. If you can link those facts to feminism, be my guest. Until then I'll leave this here:

To expand on my comment, I actually have a bit of a love/hate relationship with feminism, in a way. It's great for my sex life, but I don't enjoy what it's doing to society and women.
And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Angryman101:

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

Angryman101:

To expand on my comment, I actually have a bit of a love/hate relationship with feminism, in a way. It's great for my sex life, but I don't enjoy what it's doing to society and women.
And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Ahh the "I'm too lazy to back up my bullshit claims" defense. Classic.

I don't want to inhabit this (YouTube) cyberspace anymore.

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

You obviously have not seen my debates.

animehermit:

Angryman101:

To expand on my comment, I actually have a bit of a love/hate relationship with feminism, in a way. It's great for my sex life, but I don't enjoy what it's doing to society and women.
And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Ahh the "I'm too lazy to back up my bullshit claims" defense. Classic.

You caught me, buddy. You did it. I am defeated. My evil, anti-feminist ways are dying as we speak.

Angryman101:

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

You obviously have not seen my debates.

More to the point, I haven't seen your alleged evidence.

I seriously with that these people could get punished for this, I just realized that my poor grammar made it hard to understand what I meant.
I seriously wish that the misogynistic trolls on the net would get punished, like maybe having their right to comment removed, like they're swearing using improper language and confuse logic with insults.
I think Critical Miss had a comic with this, someone accuses X of possibly being sexist/racist, you should talk about this calmly, you SHOULDN'T resort to actual sexism/racism.
Now someone did make a good statement that they get too aggressive because these are their fantasies and they don't want that removed.
Unfortunately that's not a healthy thing to idealize, wanting the opposite gender to be nothing more than an object of desire?
To turn the situation around how about I play a game where I shoot people with the faces of the people (if they can even be called that) with incredibly violent weaponry, I'd argue I'm not hurting a real person, and I have to vent my anger somehow. except my fantasy dehumanizes a person to nothing more than something to extract pleasure from by causing them to suffer.

I think many here agree that both A: the people on the net were in the wrong.
Problem is a few still think her point was invalid. that's my problem, because while being only a boy who doesn't understand the feminine perspective, I know for a fact that lots of Pop-Culture is targeted at teenage males.

ANd to those boys I'm going to say a few thing to your arguments
-Firstly being sexy and controlling men is NOT empowerment:
I see a few of you think this is true, Well here's a reverse Example, Imagine a Hercules like male, but he's a bully, he intimidates weaker men and threatens to rough them up even after they've given him what he demanded, what's more when someone asks why he does it it's because he can.
That character is unlikable, and yet imagine if he was supposed to be depicted as the archetype of masculinity, Guys like me would be pissed, because it implies all men are violent pricks.
-There's being Sexy and there's Exploitation:
Now in of itself making a character look attractive is a good thing, Link from the Legend of Zelda Series, Anatomy wise he's a young male, with average proportions except for the long ears. if he was a real person he'd look like an average guy if in strange clothing.
Now think of common body types in games if they were real people they'd look like this

Notice the waist, she would require some sort of brace to stand up straight, and that's if she was a normal person, lets not forget she's probably top heavy.

Also I find the blank emotionless face disturbing the emotionally dead eyes, i can't stand it.
Now to make a point, As I said before Link when given features, is designed to make him look appealing but in an average every-man sort of way.
as for the girl, we can clearly see she's had certain traits that are sexually appealing over emphasized to the point that it's not humanly possible, meaning her appearance is deliberately mean to be provocative. My reason for link is this, I don't doubt that many girls who play Zelda think he might in some versions look attractive, however no guy I know has ever had a problem with Links appearance, his appearance appeals to everyone not to a specific grouup (with the dolly girls case a bunch of teenage heterosexual males)
-Making a Female Character a cold heartless B!tch is not a strong female:
Sometimes people go to far and decide that if the Female character is hostile to any man (for extra points make her provocative at the same time), always angry, and never ever showing any signs of weakness or vulnerability, then it surely can't be sexist. which is just plain insulting, No guy is going to like her, no girl is going to like her why? because no one like a mean B!tch

All these problem stem from the same problem, Males who haven;t had a real proper and healthy relationship with a girl, (And no in this instance you mom doesn't count)
Let's face it a guy who is already in a good relationship with a girl, probably doesn't need to have some bizarre fantasy about women, because he has that link with someone of the opposite gender, someone he can share that part of his base instincts.
The biggest problem is that this instance is like a kid who likes a type of sweet tasting food that's bad for him, he keeps wanting to eat it but it just makes him worse, and taking it away from him seems like it's needed.
Now I'm not saying no game or movie or any entertainment should remove all sexuality, that be silly. What we have to remove is the use of pandering to the lowest male instincts to people who don't have the intelligence to realize they are being tricked.
Somehow I feel I'm going to get disagreements, but I will try to stem the tide by saying
if your a girl, ok go ahead, if your a guy, I'm only going to listen if you have something intelligent to say.

SON OF A BITCH! Not this broad again. Bloody straw feminists. Now she went and got the jerkoffs mad at her. So. She intends to start a kickstarter to do EXACTLY WHAT SHE DOES ON YOUTUBE. Not only is this superfluous, it could be done just as easily as how she does her normal series. Go to TV tropes, find trope, explain it, bitch about it, post vid. Seeing as most of her research has been done on TV tropes & that is bound to be where she gets most of the info. Its a money grab from a woman that's intent is so clear it honestly scares me. Scares me that so many got taken in by it. Not sure if its genuine stupidity or if a few hundred youtube assholes triggered a landslide of pity. In any case i think i should report the kickstarter. Shes asking for money to read TV tropes & continue her video series.

But what really gets me, is that she normally filters comments like a motherfucker. Why go and stop such a practice now- oh wait. not surprising this woman would use this for a renewed burst of fame. Without it her goal would never have been reached. Thats why she let the comments go wild. She expected a hate burst & let it ride. She got more money than she wanted when she would never have hit her goal. 21,756 subscribers and that may be inflated due to recent fame. Can you tell me she would have EVER hit her goal without it?

To recap the news: Straw feminist baits flame war to make cash for what she does already, youtube commenters behaved as usual, internet collectively shat itself in horror then threw money at her. move along.
captcha: no-brainer

The problem with alot of movements is that its the assholes who are the ones that are loud and proud which probably explains(but doesnt excuse) The backlash she got. Usually when for example talking about african violence people are quick to point out(not all africans are bad etc etc) Maybe it would help if the same respect were givin to the average male who doesnt play games as a way to express "latent female dominant fantasies". Perhaps feminists should better acknowledge that we are all not out to get them and then a better understanding will be had.

Otherwise you just come off as someone attacking a guy for being a guy(Ie: having an attraction to a female)

Again this doesnt excuse the virulent hate that both sides seem more than happy to spew but spew they shall.

"Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde"

What on Youtube doesn't? Really, you can't post anything on Youtube without getting either racist, misogynist, or anti-semitic replies. Honestly, this is non-news.

Furthermore, you don't need money to do a Vlog. For accademic stuff, you don't need to pay for IP use (fair use clause), she clearly already has the video equipment if she can make a video to advertise her kickstarter. There are any number of websites where you can post video logs for free. So, I ask you, what the hell does she need $6000 for?
If she's got an interesting point to make and she makes it well, good on her, but given that it costs nothing (except time and the will) to make, if it was that important to her I don't think she'd be asking us to pay her for it beforehand.

Angryman101:

To expand on my comment, I actually have a bit of a love/hate relationship with feminism, in a way. It's great for my sex life, but I don't enjoy what it's doing to society and women.
And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

What these guys said:

Kahunaburger:

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

animehermit:

Ahh the "I'm too lazy to back up my bullshit claims" defense. Classic.

And for the record, I am very familiar with the feminism debate and its literature. I think I'm aware of which studies you're referring to, and they're contentious at best.

So once again, until you can back yourself up with actual evidence, forgive me if I continue to ignore your arguments.

Angryman101:
Things are worse than fucking ever.

Anyone who says "things are worse than ever" as relates to anything obviously never lived in the fourteenth century.

Then again, anybody who says anything today has probably never lived in the fourteenth century, so maybe I'm just talking out my ass.

Jiggy:
Simply that she doesn't look like a woman, not like a woman that is old and hasn't been prettied up, simply not like a woman, more like a late change male to female transgender. Shouldn't a woman atleast look like a woman? She isn't simply ugly or something, she just doesn't seem to have a womanly face, that looks like a mans face to me.

Male to female trans* people are women, so if Wynne does look like she is trans*, that doesn't mean she doesn't look like a woman.

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

Kahunaburger:

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

You obviously have not seen my debates.

More to the point, I haven't seen your alleged evidence.

Eamar:

What these guys said:

Kahunaburger:

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

animehermit:

Ahh the "I'm too lazy to back up my bullshit claims" defense. Classic.

And for the record, I am very familiar with the feminism debate and its literature. I think I'm aware of which studies you're referring to, and they're contentious at best.

So once again, until you can back yourself up with actual evidence, forgive me if I continue to ignore your arguments.

Sigh.
Fine.
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/papers/2009/wp09-11bk.pdf
Study one finds that, within the last 35 years, despite the closing of the pay gap, more women than men going to college, and other such things, women are less happy than they were in the 70s.
http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0017-2?state=cookieless
Here's a study that shows that men who are traditionally/benevolently sexist are happier, as are the women in their lives.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

RJ Dalton:

Angryman101:
Things are worse than fucking ever.

Anyone who says "things are worse than ever" as relates to anything obviously never lived in the fourteenth century.

What, you're not nostalgic for the era where rights, medicine, hygiene, literacy, and sewer systems as we know them didn't exist?

I think Jerry Holkins from Penny Arcade conveyed the proper solution best when he wrote this down a few weeks ago..

Jerry Holkins:
The answer is always more art; the corollary to that is the answer is never less art. If you start to think that less art is the answer, start over. That's not the side you want to be on. The problem isn't that people create or enjoy offensive work. The problem is that so many people believe that culture is something other people create, the sole domain of some anonymized other, so they never put their hat in the ring. That even with a computer in your pocket connected to an instantaneous global network, no-one can hear you. When you believe that, really believe it, the devil dances in hell.

Ladies, gentlemen sympathisers, you've already proven that you can raise $75,000 for a series of inane, ultimately pointless YouTube videos. All you need now is a reputable businesswoman to step up to the plate, fill a war-chest at either KickStarter or IndieGoGo and you can start participating in the medium as an independent demographic with real buying power. Assuming of course enough women can be found who do want to play video games instead of just endlessly complaining, on and on, about how their gender is being portrayed in escapist entertainment that isn't being marketed to them in the first place.

What's the worst thing that could possibly happen? You've already collectively thrown away $75,000+ trying to one up YouTube trolls. :P

RJ Dalton:

Angryman101:
Things are worse than fucking ever.

Anyone who says "things are worse than ever" as relates to anything obviously never lived in the fourteenth century.

Then again, anybody who says anything today has probably never lived in the fourteenth century, so maybe I'm just talking out my ass.

You're right, I'm exaggerating. String me up, baby.

Angryman101:

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

You obviously have not seen my debates.

More to the point, I haven't seen your alleged evidence.

Fine.
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/papers/2009/wp09-11bk.pdf
Study one finds that, within the last 35 years, despite the closing of the pay gap, more women than men going to college, and other such things, women are less happy than they were in the 70s.
http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0017-2?state=cookieless
Here's a study that shows that men who are traditionally, benevolently sexist are happier, as are the women in their lives.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because women are less happy now then in the 70s does not mean it's because of feminism or because they are on more equal ground with men.

Paradoxrifts:
I think Jerry Holkins from Penny Arcade conveyed the proper solution best when he wrote this down a few weeks ago..

Jerry Holkins:
The answer is always more art; the corollary to that is the answer is never less art. If you start to think that less art is the answer, start over. That's not the side you want to be on. The problem isn't that people create or enjoy offensive work. The problem is that so many people believe that culture is something other people create, the sole domain of some anonymized other, so they never put their hat in the ring. That even with a computer in your pocket connected to an instantaneous global network, no-one can hear you. When you believe that, really believe it, the devil dances in hell.

Ladies, gentlemen sympathisers, you've already proven that you can raise $75,000 for a series of inane, ultimately pointless YouTube videos. All you need now is a reputable businesswoman to step up to the plate, fill a war-chest at either KickStarter or IndieGoGo and you can start participating in the medium as an independent demographic with real buying power. Assuming of course enough women can be found who do want to play video games instead of just endlessly complaining, on and on, about how their gender is being portrayed in escapist entertainment that isn't being marketed to them in the first place.

What's the worst thing that could possibly happen? You've already collectively thrown away $75,000+ trying to one up YouTube trolls. :P

I like the cut of your gib.
This whole shitshow would be instantly portrayed in a much more positive light if the bitch took the money and made a good fucking game with strong writing for both male and female characters instead of making pointless statements on perceived faults in gender relations in a particular medium.

animehermit:

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because women are less happy now then in the 70s does not mean it's because of feminism or because they are on more equal ground with men.

Haha, the correlation does not equate to causation came early this time. Good job, buddy. But science doesn't point out causation, only correlations. Causation is educated conjecture based on evidence provided by correlations found. If other, differing correlations are found, then that theory of causation is disproved.
Tell me, sir. What explanation do you posit for trends in women's happiness? Take into account men show an upward trend of happiness in this same study comparably and absolutely.

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