The Big Picture: Shell Shock

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I'll openly admit I was introduced to the TMNT franchise through the cartoon series, and through that into the Paladium RPG and through that to the TPB collections of the original series (which began a domino effect of comic book reading and "indy" or underground comics in general.)

That being said I can't say that I really thought of the cartoons as the originals nor the basis for which the characters should be molded. Mainly because I will never understand the weird assumption that a lot of 80's and early 90's entertainment had that the word teenager was synonymous with surfer dude.

I liked the 2003 series a lot because it kept the recognizable leader/nerd/rebel/clown motif but managed to do so in a way that wasn't insulting to anyone's intelligence.

My childhood's best friend, me and my cousin were pretty big fans of the turtles back then, I still look at them with nostalgia to this very day, but I'm certainly not very interested in them any longer, it's literally been a decade, if not a bit more, since the last time I watched the movies, heck, I even completely forgot there was a third movie!, I guess it was that crappy for my mind to erase that thing.

I also liked the 2003 series, it got a wee bit ridiculous in the last episodes, but I still liked it.

About Robotnik / Eggman... I don't care. I seriously don't care, it's just a damn dispossable villain with a ridiculous name either way.

Aprilgold:

olfelix:

[quote="Evil Alpaca" post="6.361485.14210464"]Quick question:

How did Robotnik get the name Eggman? I have only played a couple of Sonic games, the last one being Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast. I kinda get Robotnik, guys makes robots, its self-explanatory. Eggman? That I never understood. There never seemed anything egg related about him except for his size, and he is more spherical than egg shaped.

Eggman, at least in lore, is the son of Doctor Harold Robotnik. Eggman is basically when they wanted to start to redesign most of the characters and most likely originated out of a pun that Sonic made about Robotniks shape. Then I guess that picked up with Sega and now you have Dr. Eggman.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Meh, this wasn't to bad. But like others have said, has this show dropped everything for complaining about fans?

Except that Sonic Generations throws that all out the window because "eggman" goes back in time to recruit HIMSELF Robotnik.

templar1138a:

Bob's not from Brooklyn. He's from Bah-ston.

Shadowstar38:

Actually he's from Boston.

Looks like the only asinine thing around here is me :-p
I always confuse those two, thanks for the correction fellas.

Personally I think that today's fans go waaaaaaaay to far with their love/hate.

I would love to see the movie look like the cartoon BUT I'm really hoping that they get the right actress to play April.

image

DVS BSTrD:
Hey Bob I got a proposal for you: We'll admit we weren't into the underground comics first when YOU admit you had ZERO understanding of "that other thing mentioned" in last week's episode. Deal?

You won't call him Dr. Eggman for the same reason we won't call that ending Mass Effect.

Holy shit. It took a lot of courage for him to post last week's video on here, regardless of whether or not you agree with his opinion. Do we now have to make non-Mass Effect threads into Mass Effect threads as well, now? Please just stop already. Go create a separate thread like all the other ME3 threads. There are so many already; we don't need people to hijack non-ME3 threads now.

Plus, the two examples aren't in any way similar. ME3's ending was made by the same people, based on the same universe, and incorporated the same characters and elements from the first two. There are no other versions of Mass Effect. There are no preceding comics or other Mass Effect things from other mediums or times. That's it.

aegix drakan:

bahumat42:

aegix drakan:
Dude. What's wrong with the name Eggman?

I'm a pretty big fan of the sonic series, and I have no problem with the name Eggman. I mean, I did at first, but now? Now I just don't care about that. It's not that big a deal IMO.

does he make eggs? no he makes robots. Its just a matter of one name fitting much better.

But he is egg SHAPED. And makes Egg themed robots. And he is a MAN.

Hence EGGMAN. :P

hes a sphere, and only like 1/15 or something of his robots are egg themed.

I reject your logic :P

Aprilgold:

bahumat42:

aegix drakan:
Dude. What's wrong with the name Eggman?

I'm a pretty big fan of the sonic series, and I have no problem with the name Eggman. I mean, I did at first, but now? Now I just don't care about that. It's not that big a deal IMO.

does he make eggs? no he makes robots. Its just a matter of one name fitting much better.

Am I the only one remembering that Robotnik wasn't very much said anywhere in the games except for manual or backstory? My guess for Eggman being that it was when Sonic was trying to be edgy with words and was making fun of Robotniks shape. Eventually, I suppose that caught on with Kids and as such caught on with Sega. Later its explained that Robotnik was Eggman's father so they could fit in where Shadow comes from in Sonic Adventure 2.

Note: This is the only topic I get this nerdy about.

the comics were a fond part of my childhood :)
thats why it stuck with me

Not just Green Lantern but Expendables, Scott Pilgrim, he did an episode about rebooting Sonic, etc.

He can totally complain about fan response and considering the heat he took for adding sketches to his webshow I understand his sympathies but putting himself out there on this really did earn him the oppurtunity to be judged on his character and conduct and consistency.

Overall him complaining about the retake mass effect thing comes off as HIGHLY hypocritical and dubious for someone who felt so opinionated he made THREE webshows about proliferating his opinions. Moreover as he did so as an aside AFTER doing an ep on the retake Mass Effect phenomenon and didn't just, ya know, leave it there.

So, as long as it's what got to you first, it's A-okay and must stay?

Sorry, his name was Eggman. Americans changed it, then it got changed back. The turtles were gritty, then they were dumbed down for younger audiences, then they were less dumbed down for a different series later. Evaluate things on their own merit, not one whether or not you have your nostalgia glasses on. Things will change, they always do. No one will take away your memories, and fanboy rage won't give you your childhood back. Don't knock things down just because they are different; knock them down because they suck.

It was always Eggman but in America it was changed to Robotnik for a more imposing name if I remember correctly.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Allow me to give my personal opinion (and I am really interested to find out if anyone else agrees). First, a tiny bit of background.

I never had any interest in comics at all. I never found them entertaining nor artistically compelling, but I was such a huge fan of the TMNT cartoons and toys that I also bought and read the comics. In fact, I still have my first print run of the very first issue ever of the black and white comic (it's in near-mint condition. Anyone have any idea how much it's worth? I wouldn't sell it, but I'm just curious).

Anyway, I say this because it's relevant to the idea I'm about to lay out. My personal feeling is that, when there are two competing universes and/or storylines for a property -- and particularly when they're from different mediums -- it's ultimately popularity that renders one important and the other obsolete, irrelevant, or, at the very least, unnecessary. What I mean to say is that, while the comics technically existed before the cartoons, it was the cartoons that the vast, vast majority of TMNT lovers ultimately embraced, and therefore it is the cartoons that should be considered the basis for future reboots. If the vast majority of TMNT lovers grew up loving and watching the cartoons, why bother making any future reboots about some other version that a small minority of people actually care about? In the end, the purpose of any sequel, reboot, or other similar form of storytelling that relates to previous tellings from a long time ago, is to (1) make money, and (2) appeal to the fans of the original. It seems like a fruitless endeavor to define "original" as what came first. Instead, it seems more appropriate to consider "original" to be "what first captured the imaginations of the lovers of the property that remain today." Although I do freely admit that this is not the technical definition of the word "original." Perhaps it's better to use a different term.

So, what do other people think about this?

OT: the new Captcha is very interesting. What an innovative idea to place ads in it and basically force the user to read and respond to them, rather than allowing them to gloss over and disregard them. Genius marketing idea.

People saying Michael Bay has made TMNT crap, I'd like to pose a question to you:

Hasn't TMNT always been absolute crap?

TownTattle:
People saying Michael Bay has made TMNT crap, I'd like to pose a question to you:

Hasn't TMNT always been absolute crap?

Yes, but...um...er....it's OUR crap.

Being a huge fan of something is weird. It can make us irrational. When it's not making us irrational, it usually makes us at least over-committed to something that doesn't deserve nearly the amount of attention we give it.

We all have things like that, and we become so invested in them that we often go overboard and even forget what the quality was really like.

Then again, most of us here (including me) grew up with TMNT, and what constitutes quality when you're a kid is very different from what constitutes quality when you're an adult. And if you considered something quality when you were little, you can't simply let go of that feeling of admiration toward what might ultimately be deemed crap by your adult standards. It still feels like quality because it matches our memories of it.

Hungry Donner:

Aprilgold:
Or how hypocritical Bob can be, telling fanboys to grow up when he basically whined about the new Green Lantern movie, for something like four episodes.

Bob's big problems with the Green Lantern movie, at least as I remember it, is that the movie itself was bad. Today's video isn't saying that fans need to get over something being bad, but we shouldn't get too hung up on what we understand is "canon." TMNT is used as an example since most fans of the series didn't start with the original comics, and the Saturday morning cartoon and the movies made substantial changes to TMNT lore.

When the movie's released chances are it will be pretty bad on its own right, and if it is I'm sure Bob will be ready to pan it.

You are absolutely right. I recently watched those Green Lantern videos again (because they're fucking hilarious), and he panned it because it was awful, awful moviemaking. If someone is claiming otherwise it is either because (A) they didn't watch or pay attention to the videos; (B) they are lying in order to further a point that doesn't have anything to do with this thread anyway; or (C) both.

Howdy Bob. Good video. I remember my first exposure to the Turtles being a book that had collected all of the previous graphic novels into one big work. My friends and I picked it up after we had watched the show for quite a while. I remember being puzzled by the darker tone of the comic, but I liked it. (To this day I remember Master Splinter snagging an arrow out of the air that one of the foot shot at him through a window. So sick.) I was wondering, are you surprised at all by fandom's reactions to stuff like this? Adults now spent a lot of time investing their own imaginations into these worlds back in the day. I think on some level people react negatively to changes in canon because they feel like they're being told "your imagination was wrong, or at the very least, not good enough". I don't think it's a conscious reaction, necessarily. I imagine that most people just feel like the changes are "wrong" and don't spend much time figuring out why it feels that way. What do you think?

Dr. Witticism:

DVS BSTrD:
Hey Bob I got a proposal for you: We'll admit we weren't into the underground comics first when YOU admit you had ZERO understanding of "that other thing mentioned" in last week's episode. Deal?

You won't call him Dr. Eggman for the same reason we won't call that ending Mass Effect.

Holy shit. It took a lot of courage for him to post last week's video on here, regardless of whether or not you agree with his opinion. Do we now have to make non-Mass Effect threads into Mass Effect threads as well, now? Please just stop already. Go create a separate thread like all the other ME3 threads. There are so many already; we don't need people to hijack non-ME3 threads now.

Plus, the two examples aren't in any way similar. ME3's ending was made by the same people, based on the same universe, and incorporated the same characters and elements from the first two. There are no other versions of Mass Effect. There are no preceding comics or other Mass Effect things from other mediums or times. That's it.

I think you're confusing courage with hypocrisy, or did I miss the part in Going Green where he DIDN'T applaud Jeff John's "caving into" fan pressure and ret-conning Hall Jordan's transformation into Parallax?

And as for "preceding" material for Mass Effect? Try the preceding games, novels or even the rest of ME3 excluding the last 10 minutes. It's not that the story was transplanted from another medium or given to different creators, but that, like with changing Robotnik's name to Eggman, they made it into something that it wasn't.

That's all well and good but as far as I'm aware, in no version of TMNT have the Turtles been aliens. And no, being mutated by alien ooze does not make you an alien; it makes you a mutant.

I'm all for new takes on established franchises but when the title is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, you're kind of stuck with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Of course, now the film's title is simply Ninja Turtles. So, aliens. Yay. Just make a good movie.

Andrew Eisen

OT: Sorry, I see now that I unwittingly helped to make this an ME3 thread by responding to the ME3 crap (and I still didn't see a response as to why people should continue hijacking thread to make them about ME3. Are you now going to troll every single thread for a MovieBob video? Wonderful. I'm sure most people will love that. Just like most people in this thread started off talking about ME3. Oh wait, no they didn't. Just they guy who was waiting around so he could be the very first post and could try and make it about ME3).

Anyway, one more thing about TMNT: I just want to take a little poll here relating to the first idea I laid out about what version they should follow. So:

Which version do YOU, fellow Escapists, want to see the movie use?

I'll come see the responses later and, if there are a lot, I'll create a new thread with a real poll. I must go eat that pepperoni roll now. It looks so good. Or perhaps I should make a pizza to honor our beloved turtles?

I didn't grow up with the turtles I grew up at the same time as the reboot but I was pretty loyal to KidsWB I saw one episode as a kid but I decided not to tune in because I heard it was milking a dead horse from my older brother who like 22 and saw a few syndicated reruns.

After seeing James Rofle's TMNT retrospective I have no interest in watching the original cause it looks like a cluster fuck. no continuing stories in most area change in tone Ten season the last three season being incredibly over a hundred annimation errors and corning jokes even though his retrospective was positive it just didn't seem up my alley so I watched the first 7 episodes of the reboot and I regret not watching it was fucking good so I don't understand why bob wouldn't like it. It wasn't trying to be the dark knight or anything it was just a good cartoon.

We all want live-action Bebob, Rocksteady and Krang.

DVS BSTrD:
Hey Bob I got a proposal for you: We'll admit we weren't into the underground comics first when YOU admit you had ZERO understanding of "that other thing mentioned" in last week's episode. Deal?

You won't call him Dr. Eggman for the same reason we won't call that ending Mass Effect.

Ditto.

Y'know, like so many other people, I was introduced through the turtles through the cartoons, and didn't actually read the comics until years later, something I'm making up for now. I also have my sights set on the tabletop RPs they used to make. (And yes, I liked the '03 cartoon, but to each their own).

I'm with Bob, I'm hoping this movie turns out good... though my standards of "good" are different than everyone else's...

(Also, I never had a problem with using "Eggman"... but again, I have different tastes.)

Something that always bugged me about the Turtles: They are marketed primarily towards children, and thus aren't allowed to use intentionally lethal violence, but Leonardo and Raphael use katanas and sais, weapons that have a slight tendency towards lethality.

Thanks to my older brother having Volume 2 of the original comic's paperback collection (which featured the first appearance of Fugitoid, the Utroms, the Triceritons, and Raphael hitting on a eight-breasted green blob in an alien bar) I've always known that the turtles started as a comic, and one that was hugely different from the cartoon we both loved. Which is why I like 2003 version the best. It stayed true to the comic, but kept the established personalities from the 90's version and some of the camp as well. Hell, there's a storyline that involves a hidden city of monsters underneath the sewers.

Not only that, but it gave Casey Jones, the Fugitoid, and Myamoto Usagi larger roles, and included character development that in some cases lasted over the course of the entire series (see: Karai and Baxter Stockman).

That being said, I'll always have a special place in my heart for the 90's version, and everything it stood for. I definitely agree with Bob saying it had more charm.

And regarding Robotnik/Eggman, I like to think that Eggman was Sonic's means of insulting the doctor, who decided the best thing to do would be to take that name and own it, hence why all his inventions have the name 'egg' in the title (Egg Dragoon, Egg Emperor, Death Egg, eggc.) Sonic knows this, but keeps using Eggman because he seems like the type of person who's too lazy to come up with a new insult.

so some batman villains are used alot because... fans wanted it?.... but... bob.... doesnt giving into what the fans want set it back a decade?

The thing about the Mirage series was that it wasn't famous at the time. It didn't have a massive fanbase and was thus far easier to change and use differently.

TMNT today HAS a massive fanbase. Now they're doing "the same thing", but with far more resistance. I think that's the thing people need to see. The small rock was easily moved, but the huge boulder will give resistance.

Yeah, and Harley Quinn came from the animated series. But she's completely canon now.

The whole batman thing really goes to show that change to a property can be good.

I must've been like the only one who didn't watch TMNT when I was a kid, so I don't really care either way. I do think it's funny though that after making a statement about mass effect fans want to fucking crucify him over it, and he's doing pretty much nothing to respond to it. Personally, I think it's the smartest thing he can do in this situation.

my problem with bays turtles doesn't stem from a changing of the source material,as bob has already shown the turtles have gone through a lot of changes but in general we as fans of the show/nerds have created a sort of zeitgeist cannon. my big problem is simply that bay is is attached to the project and given his track record for geek films I'm not to optimistic about it, I'm all for adding to the story if its done intelligently and in a way that can at least come to terms with said zeitgeist cannon however bay has proven that he cant make an original story without screwing up the original franchise.had they helmed someone else with more nerd cred and said that id at least be a bit more optimistic but as such my plan is to not see the film wait until the braver/more foolish fans(haven't decided which they are yet)go see to tell me that it was horrible so i can decide to not go see it again.

(also i agree bob the Mario brothers were always from Brooklyn to me and Dr. robotnik has always been Dr. robotnik's, name loved that shout out)

I hate to say this, but for the first time watching this show, I found myself asking the question "So What?"

I'm not saying this episode didn't make some good points, but I never heard anything that I'll be taking with me after I leave the computer. This episode was pretty much just fluff, in my opinion. Very well-written fluff, but fluff all the same.

Sorry, Bob.

Axolotl:
Wait a minute a here, there's one thing I don't understand:

Are there really a significant number of people who care about TMNT?

What year were you born? No I'm being serious because TMNT was the shit in the 80's and 90's.

I liked more how Doug Walker from ThatGuyWithTheGlasses covered that (in less serious manner)
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/specials/34667-why-ninja-turtles-should-be-aliens
Maybe Doug isn't TMNT fan, but he have a point
"Shame on you, that only now are you realizing that letting Michael Bay direct this is a bad idea"
My only objection is that Michael Bay loves US army even more than explosions, so turtles and Splinter would originate from american soldiers :D

Also I already wrote it, but anyway
Alien=/=extraterrestrial
Check dictionary, "alien" can also be used to describe something that is pretty unusual or doesn't fit. And in such manner turtles might be described as "alien"
There still might be some hope left

Except this is Bay, so when he tries something new it is more likely to suck than not.
What changes to transformers were good?

It is the same problem.

80s Turtles fan here, will always remember the first two movies fondly. Sadly, all this controversy seems moot to me, not only given the legendarily bad producing team involved but the huge age jump between the Turtles' most definitive incarnation and now.

Your older audience, the ones who would understand a 'gritty' reboot, are used to the silly 80s show. If you stick closely to that, the kid audience you could have pulled in like hotcakes twenty years ago might not even know what TMNT is (might be wrong, I'm not sure how popular the '03 version was among the younger crowds). That's the trap they're in, the same one that plagues Transformers and any other 80s cartoon properties they want to try rebooting.

If we had a better director involved I would suggest an attempted hybridization of the two styles. Among other things that made TMNT stand out was their wisecracks, along with the widespread introduction of family-friendly ninja type characters, with oriental weapons unlike anything kids had ever seen before. There's no rule that says they can't be serious and practice all the best aspects of ninjitsu while also being goofballs when not under the disciplined eye of their master. In fact, I'd consider it implied more than once that one of the reasons they win is due to unorthodox tactics and a sense of humour in contrast to the Shredder's constant gloom and doom.

Names can change. Shredder's been an alien too. But if he's serious about the whole 'alien turtles' thing... eh, I don't think I would've watched it anyway.

WhiteFangofWar:
Your older audience, the ones who would understand a 'gritty' reboot, are used to the silly 80s show. If you stick closely to that, the kid audience you could have pulled in like hotcakes twenty years ago might not even know what TMNT is (might be wrong, I'm not sure how popular the '03 version was among the younger crowds). That's the trap they're in, the same one that plagues Transformers and any other 80s cartoon properties they want to try rebooting.

This is an excellent point that never would have occurred to me. You get my Gold Star for Excellence :)

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