King Washington the Wicked

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The_Blue_Rider:

Rednog:

The_Blue_Rider:

I think those were just examples of people unwittingly stumbling onto a Piece of Eden and using its power in whichever way they see fit. Ghandi used his to try bring peace, Houdini used his to enhance his escape artistry. Doesnt really make them bad guys

I don't know about that, considering the apple has pretty much only been shown to be a mass mind control device. And I think one would have a hard time arguing that anyone using the pieces of eden to control people is doing it for the sunshine and rainbows.

Well I guess I did pick the two that were easiest to defend. Houdini's really just looked like he wanted to be the greatest magician/escape artist, and was using the Apple as part of the illusion. Ghandi on the other hand, I can only assume thought he was doing the right thing by using the apple, the end justifying the means.....

Ok nevermind Ghandi sounds exactly like a Templar, still no real evidence that Houdini was a bad guy

You forgot Tesla, he used it to try and make the world a better place. though I think he just extracted information from the apple. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

Alandoril:
He may not have openly wanted to take power for himself, but in that quote he did refer to America as "my" country.

Your more likely to take care of something that is yours than something lent to you. It's a very traditional way of thinking in the US military today.

Rednog:

The_Blue_Rider:

Rednog:

I don't know about that, considering the apple has pretty much only been shown to be a mass mind control device. And I think one would have a hard time arguing that anyone using the pieces of eden to control people is doing it for the sunshine and rainbows.

Well I guess I did pick the two that were easiest to defend. Houdini's really just looked like he wanted to be the greatest magician/escape artist, and was using the Apple as part of the illusion. Ghandi on the other hand, I can only assume thought he was doing the right thing by using the apple, the end justifying the means.....

Ok nevermind Ghandi sounds exactly like a Templar, still no real evidence that Houdini was a bad guy

According to the Assassin's Creed wiki Houdini was murdered by the Templar for the apple, so yea I guess the apple has fallen into the hands of some randoms, but I still think a good chunk of historical figures who used the pieces are meant to be viewed negatively.

Well negatively might not be the right word, it all depends on how you view things. The Assassins, often touted as the "good" guys, arent actually all that good when you get down to it. Shaun even states himself that they arent necessarily the clear cut good guys in AC2. Templars believe they can make the world a better place by subjugating it, Assassins believe in freedom of choice. It all comes down to what you think is right or wrong.

Of course I do love me some freedom though

If you read the Altair's Codex in Assassin's Creed II, Altair begins questioning whether the Assassin's are all that good. They celebrate freedom by taking the lives of others. All that seperates them from the Templars is their creed, but Altair wonders if that is really enough justification sometimes.

One thing I hope is brought up in the later game is Washington's title amongst the Iroquois, "Town Destroyer" after he sent an expedition into Iroquois land in 1779 and destroyed at least 40 Iroquois villages. On the other hand Handsome Lake, a Seneca religious figure, said that Washington was the only white man allowed on Iroquois land. So I really wonder if they'll include it in the game and how Connor will react. It'll be interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Destroyer

I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

ChaplainOrion:
One thing I hope is brought up in the later game is Washington's title amongst the Iroquois, "Town Destroyer" after he sent an expedition into Iroquois land in 1779 and destroyed at least 40 Iroquois villages. On the other hand Handsome Lake, a Seneca religious figure, said that Washington was the only white man allowed on Iroquois land. So I really wonder if they'll include it in the game and how Connor will react. It'll be interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Destroyer

You have to realize natives in the America's were split on the war, and Iroquois tended to be on the side of the British. Even if they weren't, it's a "kill them now rather then later" mentality.

This was both informative and interesting! Thanks for the good read!

In response to this, I'm not entirely sure this may be a good idea for Ubisoft, especially if the final mission is to kill a founding father. A part of me worries that many of the American audience may take offense to this, be it justified or not.

Rogue 09:
I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

No, in the article, he states this is a "what might have happened" scenario in the DLC.

crimson sickle2:
For further dlc, they should take other funny liberties with history.

Yeah, one in which you have to fist fight the Pope or something.

Rogue 09:
I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

It's an alternate history scenario. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And your assessment of Obama would be amusing were it not for the fact that Obama has said more than once that he does not favor the de-criminalization of marijuana.

Also, hippies? They still exist?

On the picture of King Washington, the sceptre looks like there is a Piece of Eden atop it. Teasing us??

LysanderNemoinis:
Washington was a royalist like Obama is a socialist? Yeah...not quite. If you've spent your entire life hanging out with communists and your long-time mentor and close personal friend (Frank Marshal Davis) is considered so dangerous that he has an FBI dossier a mile long and had a shooting war started with the Soviet Union, he would have been summarily locked up as an enemy of the state, to say nothing of telling people that they're not responsible for their own success but the government because the government provided your business with roads (which is funny, because I do believe there were businesses created before there were paved roads), then I think we 'might' just be heading into socialist territory... I'm just saying. I eagerly await the calls of racism.

Well, I can't fault you for trying buddy, but take note;

Rogue 09:
I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

THAT is how you satirise reactionary right-wing positions. Bravo, Rogue 09

Codeman90:
If you read the Altair's Codex in Assassin's Creed II, Altair begins questioning whether the Assassin's are all that good. They celebrate freedom by taking the lives of others. All that seperates them from the Templars is their creed, but Altair wonders if that is really enough justification sometimes.

That's entire entire point of the Creed - the innate contradictions of the Assassin Order exist to force the Assassins to think about their actions. The whole "nothing is true, everything is permitted" thing compels them to figure out for themselves what the real meaning is, and how it justifies their actions.

If only ACIII was set in the 1797, then they could do this whole tyrant angle with President Adams who was not only superficial but passed two acts that were the earliest case of bumfucking the constitution--The Alien and Sedition acts for non-American readers--still I'll accept any dig at Federalists.

I also swear to god that if ACIV is set in 1801 and tries to bumfuck Jefferson I will raise hell....

...or not.

maninahat:

crimson sickle2:
For further dlc, they should take other funny liberties with history.

Yeah, one in which you have to fist fight the Pope or something.

Funny thing about that. You actually do that in the end of AC2

If you replaced Washington with Obama and Democratic-Republicans with teaba- I mean "tea partiers", I would think that it was taken out of today's headlines. Shows how little America has actually changed.

Rogue 09:
I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

You have no idea what actual socialism is. Compared to a moderate (centre) European politics, Obama is very, very right wing. Like extreme conservative right wing.

LysanderNemoinis:
Washington was a royalist like Obama is a socialist? Yeah...not quite. If you've spent your entire life hanging out with communists and your long-time mentor and close personal friend (Frank Marshal Davis) is considered so dangerous that he has an FBI dossier a mile long and had a shooting war started with the Soviet Union, he would have been summarily locked up as an enemy of the state, to say nothing of telling people that they're not responsible for their own success but the government because the government provided your business with roads (which is funny, because I do believe there were businesses created before there were paved roads), then I think we 'might' just be heading into socialist territory... I'm just saying. I eagerly await the calls of racism.

I think more the idea is that Washington was as extreme in his grabbing more federal power, because the federal government had no power to even tax, This was a newly formed nation and Washington was doing what he almost had to do to make the thing work.

You cannot have a standing army and no ability to tax and no currency to do it with, it was fairly unworkable and without that framework in place we could not have bought the LA purchase down the road and the things that made our country the size it is today.

But back then everyone had just been fighting the brits they hated them hence why we kicked them out, france was our ally, but we could not afford a war with britian period. Washington had to bite the bullet on that one, no matter how blood thirsty the nation was for it.

Far as we having more issues than other nations well take all of europe put them under one centralized republic type government and see how you all get along.

In context if the feel of the times back then washington was off the rails in what he was doing especially if you have no history of government, these people were furious.

Now days since the 1950s or so we been a socialist nation anyway. the new deal brought in all that socialist spending while trying to do everything else and it just been growing since.

Obama is just the continuation of all that bush jr did his fair share to get us in this mess, since bush expanded the hell out of government and obama just ran with that.

So yea is anyone can look good enough and sound good enough they can spin enough BS to make government the answer sound good to alot of people that imo at lest just plain idiots. Government has not invented a program that has run under budget and efficiently, nor do they seem to do much other than inflate our deficits to the point our nation is ruined.

Nevermind the argument that if they just took the money that came in cut a check back to everyone it would be far more efficient than the layers upon layers upon layers of paperwork, and bureaucracy to filter through, with all those goverment employees getting payed to staple and colalate and stamp and answer phones and hold meetings. To write checks and fill out denial form letters.

albino boo:

During the war of 1812 only reason was the British did not hit the US with all the force that it could after 1814 was concern over Russian intervention.

mhmm...
So it wasn't because parliament was nearly bankrupt from ~12 years of constant conflict and financially supporting it's allies? It wasn't because of the blockade of American trade was also hurting Canada and the Caribbean, which was impacting the UK's revenue? It wasn't because of privateers that were preying on English merchant ships, thus increasing insurance rates, thus making trade more expensive in the Atlantic?

No, it was the threat of a Russian intervention.
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I regret to inform you that you have lost all credibility as a poster in my eyes. Good day, sir.
That is a interesting hypothesis.

Sushewakka:

Rogue 09:
I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

You have no idea what actual socialism is. Compared to a moderate (centre) European politics, Obama is very, very right wing. Like extreme conservative right wing.

I was wondering when Poe's law was going to be invoked by that comment.

OT: Should be fun! Definitely going to look into it.

worldruler8:

ChaplainOrion:
One thing I hope is brought up in the later game is Washington's title amongst the Iroquois, "Town Destroyer" after he sent an expedition into Iroquois land in 1779 and destroyed at least 40 Iroquois villages. On the other hand Handsome Lake, a Seneca religious figure, said that Washington was the only white man allowed on Iroquois land. So I really wonder if they'll include it in the game and how Connor will react. It'll be interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Destroyer

You have to realize natives in the America's were split on the war, and Iroquois tended to be on the side of the British. Even if they weren't, it's a "kill them now rather then later" mentality.

Oh I know that, Connor is an Iroquois and I wonder how he would react to the killing of his people. We already know that he's chosen to fight with Americans as a lesser evil kind of deal.

Rainboq:

Sushewakka:

Rogue 09:
I'm so confused! Was Washington really a bad guy? All the history I've read of him says "no", but the comparison to Obama not being a socialist when he clearly is a socialist... It's like my whole world has been flipped upside down...

And the Obama scooped all the change that fell out of my pockets and gave it to hippies so they can buy their weed and he can buy their vote.

You have no idea what actual socialism is. Compared to a moderate (centre) European politics, Obama is very, very right wing. Like extreme conservative right wing.

I was wondering when Poe's law was going to be invoked by that comment.

OT: Should be fun! Definitely going to look into it.

You people are no fun! It's called a joke. People make them to express slight truths in exaggerated ways for the amusement of others. So, to clear things up:

1) Obviously Washington was not a monarch. I did see the whole point of the article. I used his statement that Washington was no more a monarch than Obama is a socialist to point out that:

2) Obviously not 100% pure socialist. Find me a country that really goes through pure socialism. Again, going for funny. Did I do it? Probably not.

so·cial·ism noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

Definition of SOCIALISM

1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

AND

"We're not trying to push financial reform because we begrudge success that's fairly earned. I mean, I do think at a certain point you've made enough money. But, you know, part of the American way is, you know, you can just keep on making it if you're providing a good product or providing good service. We don't want people to stop, ah, fulfilling the core responsibilities of the financial system to help grow our economy." -Obama on Wall Street reform, Quincy, Ill., April 29, 2010

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." -- defending his tax plan to Joe the Plumber, who argued that Obama's policy hurts small-business owners like himself, Toledo, Ohio, Oct. 12, 2008

C'mon kids. Lighten up.

Rogue 09:

Rainboq:

Sushewakka:

You have no idea what actual socialism is. Compared to a moderate (centre) European politics, Obama is very, very right wing. Like extreme conservative right wing.

I was wondering when Poe's law was going to be invoked by that comment.

OT: Should be fun! Definitely going to look into it.

You people are no fun! It's called a joke. People make them to express slight truths in exaggerated ways for the amusement of others. So, to clear things up:

1) Obviously Washington was not a monarch. I did see the whole point of the article. I used his statement that Washington was no more a monarch than Obama is a socialist to point out that:

2) Obviously not 100% pure socialist. Find me a country that really goes through pure socialism. Again, going for funny. Did I do it? Probably not.

so·cial·ism noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

Definition of SOCIALISM

1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

AND

"We're not trying to push financial reform because we begrudge success that's fairly earned. I mean, I do think at a certain point you've made enough money. But, you know, part of the American way is, you know, you can just keep on making it if you're providing a good product or providing good service. We don't want people to stop, ah, fulfilling the core responsibilities of the financial system to help grow our economy." -Obama on Wall Street reform, Quincy, Ill., April 29, 2010

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." -- defending his tax plan to Joe the Plumber, who argued that Obama's policy hurts small-business owners like himself, Toledo, Ohio, Oct. 12, 2008

C'mon kids. Lighten up.

I got that it was a joke, the other guy didn't, hence why I mentioned Poe's law.

worldruler8:

maninahat:

crimson sickle2:
For further dlc, they should take other funny liberties with history.

Yeah, one in which you have to fist fight the Pope or something.

Funny thing about that. You actually do that in the end of AC2

What a coincidence. It's almost as if I already knew that fact.

Alandoril:
He may not have openly wanted to take power for himself, but in that quote he did refer to America as "my" country.

If there is evidence he secretly wanted to assume royal trappings, I am not aware of it. What we know of his private writings seem to suggest the opposite. The possessive form is and was the normal manner of speech when talking about the place you're from. I'd be more worried about being thought a Tory if I didn't call it "my" country. I don't think it can be construed as at all monarchical:

"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

(emphasis mine)
Thomas Paine, The American Crisis 1776

Besides, if he wanted to be king, he would have been.

A great read. It's so hard to find a decent discussion about the Revolution because it's become so corrupted in the modern imagination. If this keeps up I will be a regular reader.

Brotha Desmond:
If you replaced Washington with Obama and Democratic-Republicans with teaba- I mean "tea partiers", I would think that it was taken out of today's headlines. Shows how little America has actually changed.

That's the Glenn Beck version of history, don't believe it.

I've never been particularly interested in the AC series, but this has intrigued me to such a degree that I now want to go back and play all of them.

The alternate history DLC is a tremendously cool concept, since that's not a particularly common 'what if' scenario, compared to something like the Axis winning WW2.

Concern over the shape of the presidency and the power the office would wield has always been a concern in American politics, on all sides, so I think you'll get a lot more overall positive press on this than anything negative.

I highly recommend 'What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America' by Daniel Walker Howe for those interested in some early American history. It's a huge tome and it starts later than the revolutionary war (more in the aftermath of the war of 1812 through the earliest hints at crisis in 1848), but you might be surprised how early so many aspects of US history and culture were already taking shape.

Kinda funny that the states who do and always have wanted strong state government with little federal oversight are the ones that do all the immoral stuff.

Sylveria:
Kinda funny that the states who do and always have wanted strong state government with little federal oversight are the ones that do all the immoral stuff.

"Funny" isn't the word. And maybe have that log in your eye looked at. But it's an interesting point. Back then, the "common knowledge" was that local government would favor the poor and disenfranchised, because that is where the smaller man had the bigger voice. It was feared the federal government would be used by the rich against the poor (in modern terms). Perceptions have definitely shifted.

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