Jimquisition: Go Fish

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MB202:
Sensitive... Now there's something the gaming community seems as far away from being as ever!

I RESENT THAT. YOU OUGHT TO DIE IN THE FLAMING PITS OF DETROIT. (That was a joke.)

But yeah, I have to agree here, although the sentiment applies both ways. The entire gaming community needs to calm itself a bit, as they seem far too prepared to harass, insult and threaten anyone they disagree with. It's rather preposterous. And I can't defend Fish in that regard. He has definitely started his share of fights. He's insulted a lot of people with no provocation. In that regard, he's just being an ass. However, while I don't agree with his actions, I can't entirely hold his retaliations to the hate against him. I've been on the receiving end of bullying from the internet, school and even my family for most of my life, and it's not easy not to want to fight back. Plus, the internet has a way of getting people to react without thinking things through. It's entirely the wrong thing to do, and I'm certainly not defending his actions, but I think it's much worse how many people seem to be simply judging and practically dehumanizing the guy.

Even if he acted like an asshole quite often, I certainly would sympathize with him more than the mobs of anonymous assholes insulting and threatening him. He may have brought it upon himself, but it's still not nice to see anyone suffer such harassment and it's hard to see the people insulting and/or judging him as any better themselves.

Zachary Amaranth:
-Snips-

I can't say he deserves better, but then I feel it is far beyond me to judge such a thing.

And I'd say if we are going to hold him to the frankly ridiculous standards of never rising to the harassment, then why don't we seem to apply those standards to ourselves?

He certainly doesn't deserve much defense. He's an asshole, that much is undeniable. But the sheer magnitude of the recoil against him is ridiculous. It's as if he stomped the internet's foot and they responded by calling their friends and beating him with tire irons.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion here. We can probably agree that Phil Fish was unkind and responded harshly to the people attacking him. Then again, the people attacking him were certainly no saints either. My view is that neither side was justified.

And if we're applying that idea of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", it does go both ways. We shouldn't be an asshole to Fish simply because he was an asshole. There are a lot more of us than him. And we can be much bigger assholes.

Sorry, but Phil Fish has been whining about how miserable he was at least since Indie Game The Movie... and that was way before Fez was even released and he got the majority of that abuse on the internet.
Even back then I thought to myself "If making games makes you that miserable, go find another career. It's nice you want to be creative, but if it's that painful to you, find another creative outlet".

Thinking about what I heard about Phil Fish in the last two years or so, pretty much _everything_ I can think of is him being an arrogant, angry and/or insulting asshole. On top of that, he seems to like himself being seen as some kind of a martyr.
Seriously, go on Google (or your favourite other search engine) and search for Phil Fish, excluding stuff from the last month. He's done the best he could to get as much hate as possible, as far as I can tell.

To me, it's really odd that, suddenly, all that BS gets ignored by so many and Fish is painted as a hapless victim of random internet hate. He's not. That doesn't mean it's a-okay to insult the guy without pause, but it's ridiculous how the guy can act so surprised and pissed off about the stuff he gets when he lowered himself to that level several times.

See. It's because of shit like this that I do not have a facebook or twitter account. Were I to ever become famous for... any fucking thing, I would cease to be a presence on the internet. All I'd have would be a webpage with a news feed handled by my PR lackeys and a store. That's it. No forums. Fuck that.

Goodbye Phil Fish, I won't miss you and I hope you don't come back.

Just like we don't need the community represented by the people who attacked you, we don't need the industry/indie scene represented by people like you.

When something is posted that late into the thread, it probably won't be seen, but I think I still have to try.

People hate Phil not only for his controversial views, but how he states them, here is an example, although this vid is constantly being removed from yt and hard to find as it it is bad PR 101

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHPmkf8PHLA

Basically, Phill is an asshole of the worst kind. He is an asshole that can't take it when others are assholes to him. The lowest kind of insecure, smirking slimeball that projects his own insecurities on others and then takes offence when they fight back. The guy after him just demonstrated how you can phrase an unfavorable opinion in a more polite manner. If you treat others like shit, be ready to get treated the same exact way.

Also Jim, I remember you from the beginning. Now, I would have to rewatch some of those episodes, but I remember you as an annoying trolling prick that I wanted to punch in the face. I think I even remember how close it was for you to quit, but you adapted and mixed your formula up a bit. And here I am, much later, actually listening to what you have to say because despite the fact that you still annoy the hell out of me, you are actually a person worth giving a listen. And I respect that. And others respect that too. And this is why you don't get that much heat nowadays, even from people who don't agree with you. And Phil? Phil just alternates between thinking that he is next Isaac Newton (and treating everyone like trash because of it) and wanting to kill himself. He is a perfect example of bipolar disorder gone berserk

Jim, I've paused the video a few minutes in because I need to say this: Love your stuff, you're a fantastic voice in the gaming community. You're entertaining and provide very good arguments on important issues for the industry.

Thank God for Jim Sterling.

matches81:
Sorry, but Phil Fish has been whining about how miserable he was at least since Indie Game The Movie... and that was way before Fez was even released and he got the majority of that abuse on the internet.
Even back then I thought to myself "If making games makes you that miserable, go find another career. It's nice you want to be creative, but if it's that painful to you, find another creative outlet".

Thinking about what I heard about Phil Fish in the last two years or so, pretty much _everything_ I can think of is him being an arrogant, angry and/or insulting asshole. On top of that, he seems to like himself being seen as some kind of a martyr.
Seriously, go on Google (or your favourite other search engine) and search for Phil Fish, excluding stuff from the last month. He's done the best he could to get as much hate as possible, as far as I can tell.

To me, it's really odd that, suddenly, all that BS gets ignored by so many and Fish is painted as a hapless victim of random internet hate. He's not. That doesn't mean it's a-okay to insult the guy without pause, but it's ridiculous how the guy can act so surprised and pissed off about the stuff he gets when he lowered himself to that level several times.

"Go find another creative outlet"

Did you seriously think this? And did you honestly think that it creative people who are passionate about something can just switch to something else, something that falls under the "creative" category? : DDDDD

Jim

Figure out a new name for this style of show and do it. Being honest about your situation and your past experiences from within the game industry, get special guests in etc.

This side of you is worth letting off leash more often.

The thing I've learned recently is that tit for tat helps no-one and this is breaking down the gaming community. This needs to get sorted quickly, otherwise we will remain the easy target for politicians and other media.

Thanks for your insights, Jim. Even unscripted, they are much appreciated. Daily, I thank god for you.

I don't believe people should ever accept abuse, but telling someone to kill themselves over a negative comment, and then essentially going: "I'm taking MY ball and going home, then you will ALL be sorry!" is quite frankly a very unconstructive way of dealing with it.

Thank you for staying with us and continuing to be one of the sole places of reason in this crazy gamer community. A lot of things are changing and it is nice to have it explained in a way that i can understand and that can make me laugh. I may not agree with everything you say, but you still get across the facts and i look forward to listening to you every week. Thank God for you.

Jim, while I do not care too deeply for Phil Fish, I just want to say here that you have done a great amount for this community and deserve the praise and fanbase you have gained. You're a fantastic entertainer and it's actually inspiring to hear that despite your career not going well for you in the past, that you stuck to it and found a way to connect with an audience. Thank God for you.

Phil Fish has made criticism towards certain parts of the gaming industry in a little bit childish way AND he makes abusive comments/replies on his Twitter account (and replied to Bear with abusive tweeting) to other people. This implies that he's this "fuck you in the face" kind of guy that can take piss. I don't have a problem with Phil Fish snapping I have a problem how certain blogs and people in the media make him look like the victim.

I feel today it's especially important to thank God for Jim.

Thank you for Jim, God.

I find it kind of odd how people say Fish should basically "deal with it", yet when they state their reasons as to why they are trashing him it can basically be summed up as "he said something annoying/offensive".
Uh, okay.

I just don't understand why he keeps saying he loves to go on twitter and other social sites but reacts to these assholes. Shouldn't we tell him to ignore it if it's really that bad? Or find a site that isn't so hostile?

Don't expect people to give much of a fuck Jim, haven't you heard that it's only when a woman is insulted the gaming community loses it's collective shit and some choose to rally around and defend the maiden fair?

Forgive my little aside, but I know how bad it can be for people in the industry, and it just irks me that people simply do not care about what some go through until someone loses something or it's a woman.

Honestly you've given me a bit to think about. Thanks for the episode.

It sometimes seems to me that the game community is the best and worst parts of the sports and arthouse communities combined. We get the competitive hostility of sports, mixed with the smug superiority complex of arthouse. On the flip side we also get the camaraderie from being on a team, and the desire to reach new heights and higher standards. Unfortunately negativity is more eye catching in the headlines and forums, so that we see more.

It seems like Phil Fish is a very opinionated man, and some people took his opinions very personally for some reason. I hope whatever he does next makes him happy. Or at least happy enough to return to games, for while I haven't played it I hear Fez is very good.

Retrograde:
Don't expect people to give much of a fuck Jim, haven't you heard that it's only when a woman is insulted the gaming community loses it's collective shit and some choose to rally around and defend the maiden fair?

Forgive my little aside, but I know how bad it can be for people in the industry, and it just irks me that people simply do not care about what some go through until someone loses something or it's a woman.

Honestly you've given me a bit to think about. Thanks for the episode.

I think people seem to take more notice of women being slighted in the industry because it's a more institutionalized injustice. None of the things said against Phil Fish were because of his gender. A lot of women are dismissed or attacked because the strong opinions they're making are coming from a woman.

EDIT: Example: Anita Sarkesian would probably still have gotten the ire she did if she were Nate Sarkesian, but there would definitely be less threats of rape.

I understand Jim's sentiments, but I feel like if he wasn't projecting what he had in common with Phil, he'd have been more one sided (which in my opinion, he should be).

The reason Phil Fish is disliked is because of his complete lack of likability as a result of his pretentiousness and self imposed 'brilliant artist' status. We've all heard the things he's done and said, especially how he insulted a Japanese man as well as the entire Japanese video game industry/culture by outright saying 'they suck'. It doesn't help that the man he insulted, Makoto Goto, is incredibly likable and seeing the poor man's reaction as he stood stone faced amongst all the laughter shocked him incredibly. To think that he spent all that time waiting in line excited that these people would give him great opinions, and to receive that kind of treatment, does not sit well with anyone.

Phil dug his own grave. He aggravated a lot of people by acting like giant inflatable dick, and lashed out like a six year when he started getting slapped on the wrist. Makoto, the man hundreds off people were laughing at for no good reason didn't even think about scolding Phil. Instead he's taken it as a challenge to make better video games and has constantly shown his support for Phil not to give up. But Phil himself? Ha! The insults, which are all well deserved, will only stop when he comes out and sincerely apologies - something I doubt he'll do.

But who cares? Fuck him. We don't need people like that in this industry. Ironically, we need more people like Makoto, a Japanese indie dev who isn't a fucking hipster.

I learnt how to spot bullies pretty quickly while growing up and I think Fish is one of them. He acts like a dick, putting people down to make himself feel better, and then he throws a fit when other bullies bully him worse. If you behave like a cunt, bigger cunts will attack you, especially when you're not very good at handling it. I don't blame him for lashing out at Beer or anyone else who insults him but that's not all he did, is it. We've all seen his little "Japanese video games suck" video by now, in which he insults a man who can barely speak English and then his friends laugh. Is that the kind of guy anyone should feel sorry for? Is there no way to dislike Fish AND the people who insulted him? Is it not possible the only victims are the people Fish insulted and the innocent people insulted by Fish' "attackers"?

Bottom Line: Fish behaved poorly and attracted worse behaviour. He should seriously grow the fuck up.

Mcoffey:

I think people seem to take more notice of women being slighted in the industry because it's a more institutionalized injustice. None of the things said against Phil Fish were because of his gender. A lot of women are dismissed or attacked because the strong opinions they're making are coming from a woman.

EDIT: Example: Anita Sarkesian would probably still have gotten the ire she did if she were Nate Sarkesian, but there would definitely be less threats of rape.

No, her ideas were shit and they were always shit, what wouldn't have happened was there wouldn't have been well-meaning people lining up to defend her because she's a woman, she wouldn't have been a well training profession victim/feminist, and she wouldn't have gotten huge piles of money and a soapbox for being such a brave victim of such an anti-female place. Nate Sarkeesian would've been one more voice and that would've been that.

But lets say you are right and he wouldn't have just been left to make it on the strength of his ideas... There would be more of murder, death by fat as Jim put it, death to families...

How can you watch a video like this, a glimpse of someone being honest about things like this, and still honestly buy the 'it's because they're women' line?

We seriously need to stop giving a fuck when it happens to women and start giving a fuck that it happens to everyone. The implication in all of this is that "you can say whatever you want about men, but don't you dare criticize a woman!" which is multiple levels of dumb.

Necromancer Jim:

xPixelatedx:
-Snip-

I think this is a case of "an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" here. Except it ends with the whole world being assholes to each other. If we're not going to act like he was a victim, we certainly can't act as if the people threatening to rape and murder his family were justified. Yes, he was an asshole. Yes, people were assholes to him. Is there karma for them? If that is in the form of people being assholes, will those people have karma after them?

Phil Fish certainly was not a nice man, I will not deny that. He seems like he was awful to a lot of people, but then it seems that many more people were much, much worse to him. He was a victim here, but he wasn't the only victim and he wasn't only a victim. The comments he made were not justified, nor was the sheer magnitude of hate he received. I won't deny that he was in the wrong, but the people insulting and threatening him certainly aren't in the right.

There is no karma for people uniting against a common enemy, and he simply made too many enemies in his short time with us. No, I don't agree that two wrongs make a right, but I am also not surprised in the LEAST at the conclusion this took. You reap what you sow. The guy lathered his naked body with chum, and jumped into a pool of piranhas. Are we really supposed to feel bad about that? Are we supposed to blame the piranhas? People can only stand so much before they get pissed, and what you could be mistaken in suggesting is they should have kept their mouth shut and just took the beating he was dishing out. "Gamers are horrible people", "this ethnicity is stupid at making video games", etc. Should non-anonymous (and famous) people be able to bait everyone so thoroughly and come out totally unscathed? Is that really a more idealistic world?
Being so antagonistic himself, I can only surmise he thought the fact that he made videogames was a satisfactory shield against such opposition. The utter arrogance and sense of privilege that implies is just insane. When you talk to the world like you're a 14 year old 4chan poster, expect the world to talk back like 14 year old 4chan posters; that goes with ANY TOPIC. People really need to just try and be more decent human beings if they want the world to treat them better, because at the end of the day people really can surprise you in good ways. All you have to do is treat them with a bit of respect and decency, and convey controversial opinions in civilized manners.

As for the death threats? The whole "anonymous internet tough guy thing" is just that. We all know no one is hunting down his family, sending an alien invasion fleet to his house or anything so ludicrous. Taking people's insane claims on the internet as fact is a childish thing to do, especially given the context that this guy is just getting reverse trolled. People were just shouting disturbing things at him to try and get under his skin, and given his reaction, it worked. That's as much his fault as it is theirs, given he's a professional troll himself.

When your great debut to the world of gaming is "Fuck all ya guyz", you can expect the rest of your career here to be filled with """abuse"""(there simply isn't enough quotation marks for that word). That isn't 'an eye for an eye', it's reality.

The comments he made were not justified, nor was the sheer magnitude of hate he received.

That video I posted? He might not have committed a crime against humanity there, but he made himself out to be the absolute most loathsome kind of person imaginable, just in personality traits alone. You have to understand, what he did was the equivalent of beating up a physically disabled person (or anyone else who literally couldn't throw a punch back). When someone who has traveled so far comes up to you, and makes it clear they don't fully understand your language, the absolute worse thing you can do is immediately talk shit to them and then proceed to make-fun of them. Fish elaborating on his opinions didn't help either, because remember, that japanese guy barley understood English... so how the hell was he supposed to argue or defend himself!? *spoiler warning* he couldn't. They attacked someone who couldn't possibly have defended himself in front of a crowd, then pointed and laughed. Yeah, he both consciously and subconsciously advertised to the entire world from then on he was the worst, most pathetic kind of person. People remember this kind of stuff forever, so every incident he incited from then on got over-reactions.

Hello Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I always enjoy additional content from them.

I think in the case of Fish in particular, the problem is with a widely percieved issue of arrogance on his part alongside a consistent failure to produce work in any reasonable timeframe. And not the kind of show arrogance that makes your videos so entertaining. The real, "I'm a golden god" sort of thing is what people imagine when thinking about Fish. That being said, whether the percieved arrogance is performance (yours) or evident (his), the effect is still the same. I'm sure a lot of the complaints against him strike home for you. I'm sure a lot of the asses that don't get your work levy the same complaints/threats against you so you can see a fellow victim in Fish. A minor difference being that you have people who do get and love your work to fall back on who actually understand your intention. When you're attacked, it's actually a stage version of you being insulted (although I'm sure some insults hit you personally even if aimed at Stage Jim). Fish doesn't have that luxury.

In any event, people love to see the arrogant fail. So Fish is confronted on two fronts. One by scathing reports/media people who have nothing better to do than generate news by prodding him to see what he'll say next (I mean, think about it, how much publicity did poor little Beer get here? Hah), and again by onlookers who view him as a one-hit wonder being crushed under the weight of his own ego who think he deserves that nonesense. I'm not saying this to take a side or anything like that, I'm just examining the public reaction. I think people are taking cheap shots at Fish and he's been under clear duress from them for years. I don't know many people who wouldn't have cracked under that kind of persistent pressure. I also don't know the guy, I have no idea if he's actually arrogant or not and that's no reason for me to want him to suffer and certainly not to see him fail. The only complaint a person could bring against him is merely the way he lashed out and not that he lashed out.

Hopefully he'll be able to adjust and learn how to swim with the sharks. Or even better, maybe he can become an unapologetic shark himself and give us an entertaining personality who eats and poops reports that try to snipe at him. The best response Fish could have given is an unrepentant, "When I told him to kill himself, I specifically meant he should stuff his head up his own ass until he suffocated or choked on feces." I mean, he was angry, sure, but he might as well own it. It's not like an apology would matter to anyone. Kudos to you for speaking out on this. I appreciate your work.

Mr_Terrific:
You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games. Some would even call him a game maker. We are now short one game maker because someone of little value in this industry felt entitled....not for his own publication, but Game Informer of all places. This person of little value who only talks about video games threw shit at someone the industry actually NEEDS, and it just happened to be one shit too many.

Not a fan of Fez and never even heard of Phil Fish prior to this weekend, but I know the industry needs more creators and needs a whole lot less people like the Annoyed Gamer.

The real issue is the entitlement of some of these....I don't even know what to call them...what? Videogame talker critic people? I mean, they're most certainly not journalists. Journalists have standards report the news, not rumors. Journalists usually have expectations that they must met or they will be held accountable.

So when a guy like Beer gets pissy at Fish and Blow for not gossiping or commenting on a (at the time) rumor, it only highlights why gaming media cannot be taken seriously and why the industry would be better off without 95% of them. Gaming media has been shit for YEARS. This isn't new and neither is this sort of behavior. Fish has at least made a contribution to this industry. What has gaming media done for the industry? These are the same people that will line up to call gamers whiny and entitled for not enjoying the shit Mass Effect ending, and will call out developers as whiny and entitled for not commenting on rumors. Yeah....95% sounds about right.

I'd include Sterling in that number but he seems to be the only one with the balls to call out EA and other pigs in this industry.

Lastly, yeah Jim...you can't pick a side because of David Cage. You basically did the same thing only you took it quite a few steps beyond.

Beer, Fish, Blow....it sounds like a bad night out in Blackpool....

xPixelatedx:
-Snip-

They were not attacking the man, just giving their views on modern japanese games which is exactly what the guy asked. All of the designers are on record many times saying that they dislike modern games as a whole, not just japanese ones, but the question was narrowed to modern japanese games. Were these people supposed to lie about their views? I think most people stopped watching this video as soon as Fish said his thing given the amount of "what about Dark Souls?" comments popping up. His comments about Zelda are spot on.

Developers make games for a living, most of them do this because they love games. I don't know many steel workers who love working in dangerous, hot and downright tedious conditions. Phish is a hipster douche, who should be happy that people pay any attention to him at all. He should grow a pair OR do the smart thing and ignore the masses. Just make his games, try to make some cash, and enjoy the praise from the people who actually like the guy.

The problem with the game industry is not the backlash from fans but rather the sense of entitlement at every level. Developers think they deserve academy awards for making mediocre games, or in that rare instance where they actually make a great game, they think everything else they touch will be gold. Publishers think that every crappy story/concept is a franchise and fans are too stupid to speak with their wallets as opposed to railing against some wussbag hipster like Phish on twitter.

In the real word, accolades and respect often have to be earned through hard work and by giving what you expect for yourself to others.

Let Phish go work at best buy or something like the rest of the worthless 20 somethings.

Necromancer Jim:
Yes, he was an asshole. Yes, people were assholes to him. Is there karma for them? If that is in the form of people being assholes, will those people have karma after them?

Yes, there will be karma for them but we won't see it or know about. What goes around comes around. That is the concept of karma.

Phil Fish certainly was not a nice man, I will not deny that. He seems like he was awful to a lot of people, but then it seems that many more people were much, much worse to him. He was a victim here, but he wasn't the only victim and he wasn't only a victim. The comments he made were not justified, nor was the sheer magnitude of hate he received. I won't deny that he was in the wrong, but the people insulting and threatening him certainly aren't in the right.

You act as if a good chunk of the world aren't assholes to each other already. There are multiple reasons the internet can be such a hateful and spiteful place, this is one of those reasons. The problem with a lot of us is we lack the sense to look at the bigger picture. You and I could stumble into a thread and find something like what is above and pass judgement on it. But the thing is, what we see is only salvo #14 of a conflict that has been ongoing for who knows how long. Things happen for reasons. Fish was an asshole, thus people react in kind. Nothing happens without a reason or cause, nothing. We may deem the cause childish, ignorant, stupid, foolish, asinine, irrelevant, or any other thing, and we may be correct. But there is still a cause.

What happened was to be expected. The people who threatened Fish and his family are reprehensible, but Fish brought himself down to their level by that "go kill yourself' quip. By doing that, he gives himself considerably less and less ground to stand on. Actions have consequences, he made himself a future victim when he opened his mouth.

Regarding death threats - surely we can all agree that threats of violence are completely inappropriate to either side of any online debate, especially anything having to do with games. Yet they happen all the time. It's the most casually accepted WTF of gaming culture.

Why don't we here ( or somebody / anybody anywhere, really ) come up with something like Godwin's law ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law ). A "a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbole," if you'll pardon the paraphrase. The way I've seen Godwin's law applied - and this is anecdotal, so correct me if I'm wrong - is that when it's cited it instantly discredits whoever made the offending comparison involving Nazis or Hitler. It wards against lazy arguments.

I feel like the same thing should be done with death threats. I'm not saying they will go away or must be verbotten, but culturally we need some phrase to reference as a shorthand for thread readers to say of a post 'You've got to be kidding me, dial it back because you've lost all credibility,' thereby creating a disincentive to throw death threats around as a rhetorical device.

@ Jim - Great bit, and please add me to the chorus of Jimquisition fans who also like this more casual format.

Mcoffey:
It sometimes seems to me that the game community is the best and worst parts of the sports and arthouse communities combined. We get the competitive hostility of sports, mixed with the smug superiority complex of arthouse. On the flip side we also get the camaraderie from being on a team, and the desire to reach new heights and higher standards.

*applause* Well put, man! I hadn't thought about it in quite that way before.

Retrograde:

Mcoffey:

I think people seem to take more notice of women being slighted in the industry because it's a more institutionalized injustice. None of the things said against Phil Fish were because of his gender. A lot of women are dismissed or attacked because the strong opinions they're making are coming from a woman.

EDIT: Example: Anita Sarkesian would probably still have gotten the ire she did if she were Nate Sarkesian, but there would definitely be less threats of rape.

No, her ideas were shit and they were always shit, what wouldn't have happened was there wouldn't have been well-meaning people lining up to defend her because she's a woman, she wouldn't have been a well training profession victim/feminist, and she wouldn't have gotten huge piles of money and a soapbox for being such a brave victim of such an anti-female place. Nate Sarkeesian would've been one more voice and that would've been that.

But lets say you are right and he wouldn't have just been left to make it on the strength of his ideas... There would be more of murder, death by fat as Jim put it, death to families...

How can you watch a video like this, a glimpse of someone being honest about things like this, and still honestly buy the 'it's because they're women' line?

We seriously need to stop giving a fuck when it happens to women and start giving a fuck that it happens to everyone. The implication in all of this is that "you can say whatever you want about men, but don't you dare criticize a woman!" which is multiple levels of dumb.

Obviously neither are good, but when the threats are so highly sexualized, targeting specifically her gender, along side all the especially terrible treatment women get in the competitive online and fighting community, can you really say there isn't a problem there?

Everyone gets treated horribly on the internet at one point or another. I've never been threatened with rape, however, or told to get back in the kitchen.

I agree with your last point. I never said it's fine if men are threatened or criticized, just that men are very rarely criticized because of their gender.

Mcoffey:

Obviously neither are good, but when the threats are so highly sexualized, targeting specifically her gender, along side all the especially terrible treatment women get in the competitive online and fighting community, can you really say there isn't a problem there?

Everyone gets treated horribly on the internet at one point or another. I've never been threatened with rape, however, or told to get back in the kitchen.

I agree with your last point. I never said it's fine if men are threatened or criticized, just that men are very rarely criticized because of their gender.

Yes I can, long time experience of both and women aren't treated especially harshly in gaming circles, they just aren't treated especially hardly *anywhere*, and when a woman does take the kind of shit that we wouldn't bat an eyelid at were it at a man, she doesn't even need to make noise herself, people are more than happy to take that and take what would be considered normal competitive behaviour and call it sexist.

Well I have been threatened with rape, word gets thrown around on shooters like it doesn't mean anything, like kill or beat or gutted. I'd rather be raped than gutted, but for some reason when you hear people say, 'I'm gonna find her and gut her'-when referencing an in-game avatar obviously, it just doesn't have the same gut response. That's the training, and that's what I think is bullshit. We're trained to see violence as something that's necessary when it affects men. When women and children get involved people lose their shit, and that's fine, but it's one step not far enough.

Funny you agree with my last point because I think your last point misses the point. Women are insulted for their gender because it's obvious and a standout from the usual. When men get insulted it's stuff like asshole or faggot or peado. Never seen a female get called a faggot in my life. Or a douchebag. Or a dudebro. These are gendered insults. And yet, I very highly doubt you've ever seen anybody get on their high horse about people attacking men based on their gender?

But we're going very broad here and this is my stop.

Meh, don't know the guy and "his" games are not my type but for situations
like this i generally say: "Suck it up princess." don't boohoo about random internet guys it's a sticks and stones kind of thing.
There are plenty of people who appreciate but you just don't hear from them.

Retrograde:

Mcoffey:

Obviously neither are good, but when the threats are so highly sexualized, targeting specifically her gender, along side all the especially terrible treatment women get in the competitive online and fighting community, can you really say there isn't a problem there?

Everyone gets treated horribly on the internet at one point or another. I've never been threatened with rape, however, or told to get back in the kitchen.

I agree with your last point. I never said it's fine if men are threatened or criticized, just that men are very rarely criticized because of their gender.

Yes I can, long time experience of both and women aren't treated especially harshly in gaming circles, they just aren't treated especially hardly *anywhere*, and when a woman does take the kind of shit that we wouldn't bat an eyelid at were it at a man, she doesn't even need to make noise herself, people are more than happy to take that and take what would be considered normal competitive behaviour and call it sexist.

Well I have been threatened with rape, word gets thrown around on shooters like it doesn't mean anything, like kill or beat or gutted. I'd rather be raped than gutted, but for some reason when you hear people say, 'I'm gonna find her and gut her'-when referencing an in-game avatar obviously, it just doesn't have the same gut response. That's the training, and that's what I think is bullshit. We're trained to see violence as something that's necessary when it affects men. When women and children get involved people lose their shit, and that's fine, but it's one step not far enough.

Funny you agree with my last point because I think your last point misses the point. Women are insulted for their gender because it's obvious and a standout from the usual. When men get insulted it's stuff like asshole or faggot or peado. Never seen a female get called a faggot in my life. Or a douchebag. Or a dudebro. These are gendered insults. And yet, I very highly doubt you've ever seen anybody get on their high horse about people attacking men based on their gender?

But we're going very broad here and this is my stop.

I think we're arguing different things here. I'm not saying attacking men based on their gender is okay, but neither is it okay for women to be attacked. If a man wanted to speak out against being called faggot or dudebro I'd be behind him the same way I'd be behind a woman speaking out against being called a cumdumpter or a whore.

As someone who has often gotten a lot of flakk for having especially violent outburst when angered, this does speak to me quite a bit, in ways I'm not entirely sure of in their true scope
Thanks Jim, I feel this was something that was very much needed to be said
Thank Lain for Jim

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