Jimquisition: Vertigo

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Daystar Clarion:

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

As people have already said The Boss isn't a playable character (yet!), although Ammy's a good shout. The only bit she might trip up at is that she might be seen as being told what to do by a "man", Issun. Although I'd say that would be a tad harsh.

How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.

I have only one challenge, and that's with the idea that it's regressive for female protagonists to have personal trauma's in their past or present. It can be overused, a cliche even (although I'd argue that if it is a cliche it's one that more than traverses the sexes). However, doesn't it just make complete sense for your protagonist to have something emotionally powerful to motivate them? Isn't that kind of how the whole concept of motivation works? I'm just trying to better understand what you're suggesting, because it sounds like the alternative would be to have a female protagonist who does things for no other reason than that their role in the story demands it of them, which sounds more like taking away their personality than giving them more of it.

Also, 'seek beauty'? You're not helping CAPTCHA.

Fappy:
I don't know about you guys, but Vertigo's pretty sexy. Check out dem glutes!

Oh boy, what she could do with that tongue and tail of hers...

I do wonder what the idea with the 'new eyes' are - but ok

As per this weeks topic:

...ya I got nothing. I can see why player-customized characters are written off, although I'd hold that while such logic doesn't apply to games like most MMOs, Saints Row and whatnot - then the mass effect games should be allowed to count as legit examples

I mean, there you can costumize the fem-shep's appearance, but her behavior is locked down to what the game allows you to do - and there in comes the writing and game mechanics, more so than MMOs or sandbox games like Saint's row more random character behavior. (even if it might be fun to imagine randomly rampaging around on the Citadel...)

then again - you could argue that shepard is a tricky example, since the female/male choice almost doesn't matter at all - the character behaving in pretty much the same way no matter way, so there's almost no unique feminine qualities to fem-shep

Andy Shandy:

Daystar Clarion:

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

As people have already said The Boss isn't a playable character (yet!), although Ammy's a good shout. The only bit she might trip up at is that she might be seen as being told what to do by a "man", Issun. Although I'd say that would be a tad harsh.

How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.

Issun isn't a man, Issun is Issun.

Besides, Ammy always stops paying attention when he goes of on one anyway, she doesn't so much listen to him, as tolerate him.

I know this isn't a Video Game Female, but The arch Domina Makeda from Privateer Press's miniatures Game HORDES would be a prime candidate for these qualities I would suggest looking at her character. Also Privateer Press has recently announced there involvement in turning there Minitures game into a video game

Tombsite:

Monxeroth:

Tombsite:

They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.

Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.

Wow you really do not have much of a point here besides straw-men but lets just pick it apart anyway.
If a woman can only have a certain type look that limits options. As having more options is always better (this by the way is an objective fact) then having less is at least not good. If we look at the male protagonists and see that they have, in fact, benefited from diversity it stands to reason that female protagonists would as well. The most likely conclusion is therefore that only attractive females is bad (but if you have to be facetious, and you most likely will be, then there is a very small chance that this does not matter).

Of course because its such a rational and constructive way to debate to simply call out strawmen left and right because you simply do not have the tools to logically counter any of them *pats your head*

1. It does but only if the developer intended for that obviously, hence why i think its so strange we discard MMOs and Saints Row for some reason because it, oh i dunno, counters this point?
2.More options=/=Good Would tetris be anymore enjoyable if we put a little skirt on the L-block?
3.That is a point but again youre failing to see the bigger picture of: It suits the game, its consistent with the gameplay and its also something that makes sense, if you can do that with female protagonists then sure go right ahead, so far i havent seen much prodoctivity from your type of people, only complaining, and no action whatsoever except crying social justice on tumblr.
4.Its in fact a very high risk, and not chance, that it will matter, since its completely trivial, again, the whole look of something vs its practical use.
Steam controller looks shit
Steam controller is therefore shit
I like to play using the controller and look at the monitor rather than on the controller but ok

This is a societal norm. The same is generally true for all areas of media and have been for millenia. Men also have to generally be attractive in media as well but it is certainly true that older men are more "permisseable" than older females. But if this is a societal standard, hard coded into human kind for all this time, why call out the gaming industry by itself (aside from you being a gaming reviewer which makes it your job to call it out)? Should gaming be held to a higher standard that movies, painted art, literature, and the like? I'm not saying it shouldn't, perhaps the act of interaction and ownership of the avatar does carry with it more weight.

However, you're criteria also disregarded several legitimate candidates. A female character can be pretty without being sexualized, it is wrong to throw out a character just because they aren't horribly scarred (kinda like a certain professional that fired a female employee because she was "too pretty"). How many men do you arrive at if you throw out the handsome/rugged men with abs of steel? I also find it unwarranted to throw out customizeable characters which are generally a direct response for female gamers. I'm not sure why you didn't use characters like Princess Peach in Mario Party and such unless you're talking about the character as a whole. How about that pink square from Thomas was Alone? Hah. We barely even knew what Chell looks like thanks to lesser graphics until recently. I assume you're talking about playable females and not just female characters in general. Otherwise I have quite a few (such as Ellie of Borderlands 2 fame, for example).

As I've said elsewhere. According to the 2010 ESA results, 40/60 (female/male) was the gamer ratio. In that year, we also learned that 80% of women who owned consoles had a Wii as their primary. 9% ps3, 11% 360. The current ESA 47%/53% was after including mobile gamers and over 50% of the respondants in that survey weren't planning to purchase even one game that year. We also have no reason to suspect the distribution has changed since then.

That means that AAA developers are looking at a console target market that is more than 80% males thanks to the underpowered wii consoles. So if you're going to create a stable, non-customiseable character then it suits you as a development studio to make a male character or a female character that appeals to males. Customizeability gets around that without alienating their largest market segment. But at an 80%+ male market you'd almost be demanding that a lady's stocking company make their crotch area more roomy for the X% of males that use the product even if it makes the females slightly less comfortable.

Either way, i couldn't care less what my avatar looks like. Could be an 80 year old woman in a clown costume as long as the story is compelling.

I understand that with GTA V firmly in mind, it seems otherwise- but that list would disqualify an awful lot of male protagonists as well. Seriously- the "not inspired by some sort of trauma" requirement would remove about 99% of the non-pretty morally ambiguous men. Some do exist, sure, but compared to the over all roll sheet of protagonist characters, the disparity of male vs. female looks a lot worse than the one produced by this far narrower list of criteria.

I also feel some small need to point out that the "role model" stigma works against female characters as well. Part of why female characters can't be morally ambiguous is the same reason Lara Croft and Ellie from Last of Us get criticized for showing vulnerability- there are people who are ready to very loudly decry any arguably negative characteristics of a female character as implying that those traits apply to all women. Now to be clear, I'm not saying that's the only reason, and part of the reason for that reaction is an overall dearth of female characters makes it easier to make those sorts of associations with the ones who become prominent. But until we can tone back some of the more reflexive tendency to accuse developers of stereotyping at a drop of a hat rather than giving them a little bit of slack for at least trying to present a more diverse selection of characters, we're going to be served up course after course of straight white men voiced by Nolan North simply because it doesn't rock the boat. Sure, there will be people grousing about the field of generic heroes, but at least there's cover for that- casting a non-attractive African American lesbian as the morally questionable heroine would just put a big bullseye around the dev's neck.

SonOfVoorhees:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

Just because it's a problem that isn't exclusive to games doesn't mean it isn't a problem games have. Jim's show focuses on the gaming side of the problem.

It's not that men don't care about looks. Looks matter less on a male character to a male when they're still portrayed as heroic or badass. I imagine women will likely feel similarly for female characters. It's kind of hard to measure for women though because most, if not all female heroes are beautiful women, designed around appealing to men (More so in video games). I don't think women are so shallow though that they wouldn't play as a 60 year old if the material was compelling enough.

SonOfVoorhees:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

Just because it is not an exclusive problems for games does not mean that games do not have to solve it as well. While it is true that women display a more varied view of what constitute an attractive man as opposed to what men thinks constitute an attractive woman, I highly doubt that was taken into consideration when designing the more diverse male characters.

Also it is rarely a good thing just to go "well can't fix that. That is just the way it is.". Would kinda lead to that stagnation of humanity's growth and all that. :)

Chessrook44:
Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

If you were a wolf you'd think otherwise. So, nope, don't count.

Although, the deeper underlining issue here is that we normally don't feel like for a man to be ugly is a flaw.

Regarding Amaterasu, she certainly seems the perfect choice. Correct me if my memory is lying to me though, but didn't they pretty much obfuscate her gender throughout the game, presenting her as non-gendered unless you read the manual? Seems like fear of low-selling female protagonists again.
Also, if the only way to be an empowered video game female is to be an animalian deity of some description then that's sort of limiting in itself.

Monxeroth:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if theyre created by the developer and not the player?

1.)They CAN be, it's just they always always ALWAYS are, even when it doesn't make sense. Even in a world where they can't keep nourished, can't bathe, can't keep their spores perfect, can't wear makeup, they are god damn sexy models! If looks don't matter, then why is it that they are hot even when it doesn't make a lick of sense?

2.)It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that unattractive females coming out of personal avatar games aren't icons, they are personal avatars and only you personally have any investment in them. When talking about PUBLIC scrutiny of female characters, a PERSONAL avatar does not count.

3.)Avatars aren't good or bad, they are what you make of them. Some people play skyrim by going to the first town, saving every few seconds, and seeing if they can wipe it out before moving to the next one. Some people play skyrim specifically TO glitch the game and do stuff that kills the immersion. This is no judgment to that style of play, it is simply stating that a well-made female character is completely different from a well-made female avatar. I would also state that me and my friends were, and still are, a bit disappointed in Saint Row 3's personal avatar tools. Compared to saints row 2, I cannot make my character an Anorexic Bolemic Crossdresser who had the left half of her face carved out, and just doesn't work out so any skin they do have showing is devoid of muscles and just has the nasty bone outline coming out of it. You could make that character in Saint's Row 2, but in Saint's Row 3 you are required to have ABS OF FUCKING STEEL!!!!

Here we are disappointed that the god damn game can't let us look horrible. We ARE the infamous and amoral masters of a street gang that regularly goes on mass killing sprees, so why for fucks sake are we required to look like barbies doing it.

I'ts okay though, we still pulled off an aging asian drag queen, who has let himself go due to droopy face syndrome. This works for our plans.

Going with another beat em up, Mitsuko from Bloody Roar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm8Kx9Fcu8Q

Okay, so counting Amaterasu, we have... two. And Ammy is, at least, a gorgeous specimen of wolf goddess. The attractiveness isn't even the least bit sexualized though, so she can have the point. Any others?

Um...

Having not played the game, I have no idea about the qualifications, but... Fat Princess?

Curious what you think about Maddox' take on women in games

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames

Kinda agree with his.

Lord_Gremlin:

Chessrook44:
Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

If you were a wolf you'd think otherwise. So, nope, don't count.

Although, the deeper underlining issue here is that we normally don't feel like for a man to be ugly is a flaw.

And if you were a dinosaur lizard thing you'd think the character Jim chose was attractive. So by your logic she shouldn't count either.

Really though, the only place I'd see Ammy becoming "traditionally attractive" is in furry fan art that anthropomorphizes her. And since that ain't canon that don't count.

Hey Jim, I think I've found your woman, and she comes from one of my favorite games of all time, Fire Emblem on the GBA:

http://fireemblemwiki.org/w/images/thumb/6/69/FERK_Vaida.png/200px-FERK_Vaida.png

That's Vaida. She's a playable character. She's an older woman with a scar on her face. Granted, she's not one of the main characters, and she doesn't come in until late in the game, but still. It's true that she's wearing a short skirt and low-cut top, but she's remarkably older than most of the cast. Not to mention, she DOES have nonstandard motivations. At one point she's a boss character, but later she defects from the enemy army to join your side.

There you go, Jim. Can we get a Fire Emblem episode now?

You forgot about Broodmother from Dota1/2 :P she is more contemporary female protagonist.

Monxeroth:

erttheking:

Monxeroth:

Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.

Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.

Truth=/=Urgency

While its debatably somewhat true, the impact it has or the urgency of said subject isnt objectively problematic in itself, because again i must ask the question in that case: Does the opposite matter/not matter, and if so, why/why not?

I havent denied anything but neither am i so gullible to simply accept a black and white scenario without contrast.
First of all the fallacy that appearently then according to most arguments vs this, is well, we get a "non-traditionally attractive female protagonist" and then to break it down first of all. Well what constitutes one ideal over another, as you must be aware both male and female gamers find some "non-traditionally attractive males" to be appealing in games. The other problem comes with ambiguous genders and well, if it is a female but we cant tell, is it a female? If a tree falls in the forest without anyone around to hear it does it still make a noise, basically?
Then the third question of course becomes, protagonist, according to me? you? what about anti-heroes then or npcs or other characters in a game that have equal amount of impact on the game as you the player does?

Your question regarding "urgency" of this kind of representation discrepancy drudges up the dreaded Tumblr-abuse word of "privilege". Because you and I do not lack for representation in our favorite form of media, we cannot empathize with someone who has no high-profile representation in said medium. So the urgency of this sort of discrepancy may seem trivial to us, but as there are so many gamers clamoring for this sort of representation in games, one would assume they find it rather urgent.

To put it another way, your question seems to be "Yes, there probably is a discrepancy regarding the prominence of non-traditionally-attractive female protagonists in games vs. the male equivalent, but is that a serious problem?" Well, my feelings on the issue are that if a lot of people have a problem with it, their complaints seem reasonable, and changing things would require very little sacrifice from a practical or social perspective and our community stands to gain from it, I think whether or not it is "urgent" is a moot point. Rather, I think the more "urgent" matter is that people within our community seem hard-wired to resist this sort of observation and criticism as though it potentially threatens something.

It's really no different from when a person complains about how shooters are too generic or how single-player experiences are diminished to favor tacked-on multiplayer experiences. We complain about aspects of the industry that we don't like, hoping that they will change and improve our overall experience. That's exactly what those arguing for equal representation are doing. They dislike something in the industry, so they're pointing it out and complaining about it so it can change and improve their enjoyment of it. And unless someone thinks those changes will lessen their enjoyment of it, then I don't really understand why people bother to take it so personally as if they are accused of being called sexist just for enjoying video games.

Monxeroth:

erttheking:

Monxeroth:

Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.

Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.

Truth=/=Urgency

While its debatably somewhat true, the impact it has or the urgency of said subject isnt objectively problematic in itself, because again i must ask the question in that case: Does the opposite matter/not matter, and if so, why/why not?

I havent denied anything but neither am i so gullible to simply accept a black and white scenario without contrast.
First of all the fallacy that appearently then according to most arguments vs this, is well, we get a "non-traditionally attractive female protagonist" and then to break it down first of all. Well what constitutes one ideal over another, as you must be aware both male and female gamers find some "non-traditionally attractive males" to be appealing in games. The other problem comes with ambiguous genders and well, if it is a female but we cant tell, is it a female? If a tree falls in the forest without anyone around to hear it does it still make a noise, basically?
Then the third question of course becomes, protagonist, according to me? you? what about anti-heroes then or npcs or other characters in a game that have equal amount of impact on the game as you the player does?

First of all, yeah we have been getting some non-attractive males in gaming. I'd like to see someone flat out say that they think that Kratos is attractive. Come to think of it we have a lot of butt ugly guys in gaming. Marcus Fenix, Geralt of Rivia, Kratos as I mentioned before and that bloke from Asura's wrath. And yes ideals vary from person to person, I personally think that manly women are very attractive, but that's not the point. Here is one image of wolverine.

http://www.eastside-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/wolverine1.jpg

And here is another

http://wallpaper-share.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/the-wolverine-handsome-wallpaper-1024x576.jpg

It's pretty obvious which one had the intention of being attractive in it and while some people may find the second one ugly and some of them may find the first one attractive, that's not the point, it's about the intent, and intent is very obvious.

...What does that have to do with anything? And not necessarily, if a character is female, she is still a female even if her gender doesn't define her.

A protagonists in a video game is the character you play as, the main character that the story revolves around. End of story. Dom is not the protagonist of Gears of War, the Arbiter isn't the main character of Halo 2 even though he is playable, he is the deuteragonist, Clementine is not the protagonist of the Walking Dead, Elizabeth is not the protagonist of Bioshock Infinite, Ellie is not hte protagonist of the Last of Us.

Also, as for urgency, yes it is urgent because repetition breeds stagnation, and stagnation kills creativity.

Recette from Recettear is a pretty damn good female character in my estimation, as well as the female protags from other Carpe Fulgar games. Not exactly mainstream, though, I suppose, even if Recettear has quite the reach now.

Vertigo is really only the protagonist in a fighting game sense. She has her own story, but so does everyone else you can play. If we are saying that is a protagonist, we can extend this to a few, if only a few, other women in gaming.

Broodmother from DOTA (and 2), who is a giant spider (thus not attractive in the slightest, besides to Keeper of the Light) who is really annoyed with all the people who keep coming from the surface and killing her young, fighting for their survival, not hers. She is really morally grey, since she cares more about her own spiders rather than any other humans.

Peacock and Double from Skullgirls: The former is a mutilated child, once a slave who was beaten, tortured and blinded (we get to see that happen from her. This caused her to go absolutely insane. She was rebuilt (it's implied the only bits of her that are not robotic are her brain and her face) by a man named Dr. Avian, to help hunt down the "Skull Girl" and end that threat once and for all. However, she does not do it for Dr. Avian, not pushed by the hardship she has suffered. She does it because he insanity, plus her augments, have turned her into a minor reality warper that looks and acts like a murderous cartoon. She does it (at first) because she really likes fighting, and later, to save her best friend who had been turned into the Skullgirl.

Special note goes to Painwheel, who has mostly the same motivations as the former, and a lot of the messed up designs for the later, but was "doing it for a man," strictly speaking. I wasn't sure if mind control counted, but I am going to just play it safe here.

It's almost like Jim doesnt know about Ingrid Bottomlow from Gnome Ranger. Ingrid was banished by her family for being un-gnome like getting an education and going to university and is teleported into a dark forest. She is a deep tormented character far more deep than Vertigo. She's also not pretty to look at either.

Branindain:
Regarding Amaterasu, she certainly seems the perfect choice. Correct me if my memory is lying to me though, but didn't they pretty much obfuscate her gender throughout the game, presenting her as non-gendered unless you read the manual? Seems like fear of low-selling female protagonists again.
Also, if the only way to be an empowered video game female is to be an animalian deity of some description then that's sort of limiting in itself.

Only in the American version of the game.

In the Japanese and EU versions, she was always refereed to as female.

Metalix Knightmare:
Just wanted to add this, Anita would hate this revelation a bit more than you Jim. She hates seeing women used as villian characters.

Do you have a quote for that?

The female characters from Thomas Was Alone would probably fit the bill, even if they are just rectangles.

Chell would probably work too, although she hardly has any personality.

I'm thinking Ameratsu and Jill from Mighty Jill Off. It's still not much though.

Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Ahhhh Primal Rage...Vertigo was always my best fighter in that game. I used to use that hypnotize attack like it was going out of style...often getting the "NO CHEESE!" icon to flash on the screen. You make a very fair point about her, Jim, and thanks for bringing up some good nostalgic memories about a fighting game that I really enjoyed back in my arcade-hopping days. :3

At time of posting, this thread has 67 replies in... 45 minutes.

Oh my. This is gonna be one of those threads.

OT: Thank the gods once again for you, Jim Sterling. You have enlightened the ignorant masses once again. Excellent video all around. Thank you and thank the gods for you.

Also, I like the new eyes. Very stylish.

erttheking:

Monxeroth:

erttheking:

Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.

Truth=/=Urgency

While its debatably somewhat true, the impact it has or the urgency of said subject isnt objectively problematic in itself, because again i must ask the question in that case: Does the opposite matter/not matter, and if so, why/why not?

I havent denied anything but neither am i so gullible to simply accept a black and white scenario without contrast.
First of all the fallacy that appearently then according to most arguments vs this, is well, we get a "non-traditionally attractive female protagonist" and then to break it down first of all. Well what constitutes one ideal over another, as you must be aware both male and female gamers find some "non-traditionally attractive males" to be appealing in games. The other problem comes with ambiguous genders and well, if it is a female but we cant tell, is it a female? If a tree falls in the forest without anyone around to hear it does it still make a noise, basically?
Then the third question of course becomes, protagonist, according to me? you? what about anti-heroes then or npcs or other characters in a game that have equal amount of impact on the game as you the player does?

First of all, yeah we have been getting some non-attractive males in gaming. I'd like to see someone flat out say that they think that Kratos is attractive. Come to think of it we have a lot of butt ugly guys in gaming. Marcus Fenix, Geralt of Rivia, Kratos as I mentioned before and that bloke from Asura's wrath. And yes ideals vary from person to person, I personally think that manly women are very attractive, but that's not the point. Here is one image of wolverine.

http://www.eastside-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/wolverine1.jpg

And here is another

http://wallpaper-share.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/the-wolverine-handsome-wallpaper-1024x576.jpg

It's pretty obvious which one had the intention of being attractive in it and while some people may find the second one ugly and some of them may find the first one attractive, that's not the point, it's about the intent, and intent is very obvious.

...What does that have to do with anything?

A protagonists in a video game is the character you play as, the main character that the story revolves around. End of story. Dom is not the protagonist of Gears of War, the Arbiter isn't the main character of Halo 2 even though he is playable, he is the deuteragonist, Clementine is not the protagonist of the Walking Dead, Elizabeth is not the protagonist of Bioshock Infinite, Ellie is not hte protagonist of the Last of Us.

So then what the creator intends nullifies all opinions on what people believe, what they think and what they interpret?
Hmmn ok then..i guess...

Well by that definition kane and lynch are protagonists, walter white is a protagonist, and hitler was the protagonist of ww2, but of course, how could i have been so foolish to think otherwise haha.

Again, you may find someday that what is true isnt important or urgent, its trivial at best and hey, if we can get more people who dont spend their time complaining and instead actually helping in their selected category or artistic medium then all the better, but if they dont then thats not exactly the end of the world either.
If a good games comes along with a nontraditionally attractive female protagonist then i would like said game to be praised for how good the game part actually is, not how the protagonist looks or doesnt look, thats all im saying anyway. Id like to enjoy games for..yknow, being games, but i guess thats too much to ask for some people i suppose :L

Oh, here's another two, courtesy of Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn:

Meg: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121227124028/fireemblem/images/6/6e/Meg.png

A fat girl. And you get her early on, too!

Calill: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121023011405/fireemblem/images/a/aa/Calill.png

She is attractive and slender, though she's also on the older side of the cast (and it's a large cast).

Chessrook44:
Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

She is technically doing a lot of stuff at a mans behalf though. Her motivations aren't really her own, shes just the mostly blank slate the player is controlling. And even then, they are kinda on the down low about her gender.

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