Space Marine Director Talks Plot for Would Be Sequels

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So it would have basically been a mish-mash of The Ultramarines Omnibus and the Soul Drinkers novels? Eh, seems decent enough. Emperor knows the narrative hasn't been the strong point of most WH40k games anyway:

Morti:
I would really like another Space Marine game, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that plot could fit into W40K lore...
even thinking about going rogue is a one way ticket to "Exterminate on Site" with the Inquisition, especially with the Astartes, the "Emperors Finest" have an image to maintain afterall. And cleaning house with the Ultramarines? The post children of the Imperium? That strikes me as something far too significant to get away with in a third party game, maybe if they'd created their own chapter (or just stuck with the Blood Ravens, more than enough history and speculation with them concerning loyalties)/

The major themes the director wished to do have already been done in 40k lore, The Soul Drinker series concerns an entire chapter that questions whether or not the Imperium is what the Emperor wanted while dancing on a tightrope between outright Chaos (the chapter nearly doesn't make it and gets hit by mutations as well).

The Ultramarines even have their rogues with the book series about one of their company captains disobeying the Codex Astartes and his subsequent punishment quest.

The thing with 40k lore, its rather mutable.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines_(Novel_Series)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Soul_Drinkers_Omnibus

Too bad we won't see it happen, The Ultrasmurfs need some desperate re-characterisation after Matt Ward's ham-handedness.

I was expecting him to become an inquisitorial henchman and travel the galaxy with the inquisitor doing special ops missions similar to the Death Watch.

That plot would have seriously made me pissed. Sure it is not unheard of Space Marines going rogue but seriously Ultramarines are about as rigid and loyal a Space Marine chapter can get. I would have preferred it be be more like the Ultramarine novel series where after being booted from the chapter he would have to take a Death quest or whatever it was called. Basically a suicidal mission and if you complete it you can come back.

Almost thought they were going to go this route after beating the game.

The part about being suspected of taint and being taken by the inquisition is a unbelievable thing. No Space Marine chapter would allow the Inquisition to take one of their own prisoner, punishment would be up to the chapter leaders to decide. Chapters have been known to attack Inquisitors who try to take one of their own even if it was justified.

el_kabong:
Now, here's where the extrapolation occurs. The story of the duel is a falsity. While Alpharius may have provoked Guilliman into the open with promises of an honorable duel, such action would only have been a deception to overwhelm the primarch (Alpharius was known for being dishonorable and Guilliman, honorable to a fault). Omegon, possessing a more powerful version of the genetic manipulation shown amongst other Alpha Legion, assumes the identity of Guilliman. He joins the ranks of the Ultramarines (leading them to an assured Alpha Legion victory). He then writes the Codex Astartes in an attempt to weaken the power of the loyalist legions and to blind them with rigid doctrine, turning the Ultramarines upside-down from the inside. Tinfoil-hat clincher: when you turn the Ultramarine symbol upside-down...it's an Omega.

It's a nice theory, but Matt Ward would never allowed his beloved Ultrasmurfs to be so besmirched.

While Space Marine appears to be down for the count, at least we have Space Hulk to look forward to. Ahh who am I kidding, it won't be as good.

el_kabong:

jurnag12:

el_kabong:

The Inquisition is ALWAYS right.

EDIT: Guess I should say something about the actual story. I'm kind of glad they cleared that up. While I loved speculating on what happened to Titus, I like to see that they had plans to continue the character. However, "going rogue" is a strange turn of events. Maybe he can join Alpha Legion. After all, they did write the Codex Astartes...

(ducks incoming nerd bullets)

To answer the call for nerd bullets, didn't Roboute Gulliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, write it?

And meant it exactly as Titus sees it in the game, but which was twisted over the years into the absolute dogma of Space Marine tactics?

Well, as a player who uses Alpha Legion on the table-top, I have my own tinfoil-hat theories on that particular piece of history. Some facts about the Ultramarines and Alpha Legion.

1. Alpha Legion actually has two primarchs who are twins, Alpharius and Omegon. They kept their homeworld and each other a secret from the Imperium (sort of like The Prestige). While tactical geniuses, they were not very skilled in hand-to-hand and preferred bullets to solve their combat.

2. In the span of time after the Horus Heresy (notorious because of the shoddy records kept during the time), the Ultramarines went to battle with Alpha Legion, where Guilliman killed Alpharius in a duel. Despite losing their primarch, the Alpha Legion were still able to defeat the Ultramarines.

3. Guilliman and the Ultramarines are not convinced that they actually killed Alpharius, as it's been revealed that Alpha Legion can ingest their primarch's blood to become genetically identical for periods of time (fooling even space marine apothecaries).

4. In the same period, but before his "death", Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes, a semi-rigid doctrine that not only dictated combat doctrine, but also split all legions into smaller, weaker units. The expressed purpose was to prevent one chapter from becoming too powerful and causing another civil war.

5. Post-heresy, Alpha Legion work to infiltrate loyalist marine chapters, such traitors revealing themselves at crucial moments.

6. Members of each space marine legion tend to show the same traits as their founding primarchs, though reduced in some way.

Now, here's where the extrapolation occurs. The story of the duel is a falsity. While Alpharius may have provoked Guilliman into the open with promises of an honorable duel, such action would only have been a deception to overwhelm the primarch (Alpharius was known for being dishonorable and Guilliman, honorable to a fault). Omegon, possessing a more powerful version of the genetic manipulation shown amongst other Alpha Legion, assumes the identity of Guilliman. He joins the ranks of the Ultramarines (leading them to an assured Alpha Legion victory). He then writes the Codex Astartes in an attempt to weaken the power of the loyalist legions and to blind them with rigid doctrine, turning the Ultramarines upside-down from the inside. Tinfoil-hat clincher: when you turn the Ultramarine symbol upside-down...it's an Omega.

That...makes a disturbing amount of sense, although this is the first I've heard about that appearance ability.

Would that also imply that it's actually Omegon currently in stasis on Macragge?

Deathwatch would have been completely logical, and nothing would prevent tad too radical Inquisitor going full Chaos. That whole would-be plot seems far too complex.

el_kabong:

Now, here's where the extrapolation occurs. The story of the duel is a falsity. While Alpharius may have provoked Guilliman into the open with promises of an honorable duel, such action would only have been a deception to overwhelm the primarch (Alpharius was known for being dishonorable and Guilliman, honorable to a fault). Omegon, possessing a more powerful version of the genetic manipulation shown amongst other Alpha Legion, assumes the identity of Guilliman. He joins the ranks of the Ultramarines (leading them to an assured Alpha Legion victory). He then writes the Codex Astartes in an attempt to weaken the power of the loyalist legions and to blind them with rigid doctrine, turning the Ultramarines upside-down from the inside.

Except that wasn't how the fight between Guilliman and Alpharius happened. There was no promise of an honourable duel. The Alpha Legion deplyed to a planet, provoking the Ultramarines to attack them. Guilliman broke with his normal combat doctrine and hit their command centre with a risky aerial surprise assault (around 2000 Ultramrines), hoping for a decapitation strike. While the plan worked, with the Alpha Legion HQ being wiped out, losing the Primarch didn't cripple the Alpha Legion like Guilliman expected. Instead they continued to fight and eventually forced the Ultramrines to withdraw. But a significant chunk of that 2000 strong Ultramrine force survived, and were witness to the death of Alpharius at Guilliman's hands. This is from the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article in White Dwarf, if you were wondering about source.

Tinfoil-hat clincher: when you turn the Ultramarine symbol upside-down...it's an Omega.

Which was their heraldry before the Heresy, so nope.

Going Rogue?!?!

When a Space Marine "goes rogue" it usually involves mutations and accessorizing with eight pointed stars. A far more likely scenario is that Titus rots in a holding cell until the Inquisition figures out they need a space marine immune to the warp for a suicide mission. They let Titus out with a leash (I'm guess a plot device implanted bomb wielded by an inquisitor support character, female if I had to be specific)and tell him to clean up the mess. In the course of surviving Titus makes a few friends in the inquisition and MAYBE they request a founding for a new chapter. After all its not like its the first time a chapter has been in bed with the Inquisition since their founding (Grey Knights, Exorcists).

I remember when space marine was going to be a 4p co-op rpglite with looting mechanics similar to DOW2.

And then it became single player Gears of War 40,000.
So I stopped caring.

TekMoney:
Considering how tight a handle on their IP Games Workshop maintains. They would never have let this story happen.

This is basically the plot of the Graham McNeill Ultramarine books (at least the third and fourth). Personally, I'm hoping if there is a next game that they drop the Ultrasmurfs and go with a more interesting chapter, or pull a leaf from CoD4's book and give us multiple protagonists from different chapters, with varying gameplay to match.

Man, that sucks. Space Marine was/is fantastic.

Elijin:
I remember when space marine was going to be a 4p co-op rpglite with looting mechanics similar to DOW2.

And then it became single player Gears of War 40,000.
So I stopped caring.

wut. Did you even play the game? SM has about as much in common with Gears as Doom. For reference, see this video by Sexbad and carry on your merry way.

deathbydeath:

Elijin:
I remember when space marine was going to be a 4p co-op rpglite with looting mechanics similar to DOW2.

And then it became single player Gears of War 40,000.
So I stopped caring.

wut. Did you even play the game? SM has about as much in common with Gears as Doom. For reference, see this video by Sexbad and carry on your merry way.

But I did play it...

I picked it up the first week it came out, took it for a spin and just really wasnt into it. Third person shooter with a huge emphasis on closing ground and engaging in melee, and some really rewarding melee scenes and mechanics. It was shiny and all but...eh

Maybe if they hadnt built up my expectations for an rpg with loot mechanics and co-op I may have liked it. But they did, and the final product was uninspiring next to it.

Elijin:
But I did play it...

I picked it up the first week it came out, took it for a spin and just really wasnt into it. Third person shooter with a huge emphasis on closing ground and engaging in melee, and some really rewarding melee scenes and mechanics. It was shiny and all but...eh

Maybe if they hadnt built up my expectations for an rpg with loot mechanics and co-op I may have liked it. But they did, and the final product was uninspiring next to it.

Oh. Well that makes sense. Why didn't you just say that in the first place without the roundabout and awkward comparisons?

jurnag12:

el_kabong:

jurnag12:

snip

snip

That...makes a disturbing amount of sense, although this is the first I've heard about that appearance ability.

Would that also imply that it's actually Omegon currently in stasis on Macragge?

Technically, yes.

Megalodon:

el_kabong:

double snip

Except that wasn't how the fight between Guilliman and Alpharius happened. There was no promise of an honourable duel. The Alpha Legion deplyed to a planet, provoking the Ultramarines to attack them. Guilliman broke with his normal combat doctrine and hit their command centre with a risky aerial surprise assault (around 2000 Ultramrines), hoping for a decapitation strike. While the plan worked, with the Alpha Legion HQ being wiped out, losing the Primarch didn't cripple the Alpha Legion like Guilliman expected. Instead they continued to fight and eventually forced the Ultramrines to withdraw. But a significant chunk of that 2000 strong Ultramrine force survived, and were witness to the death of Alpharius at Guilliman's hands. This is from the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article in White Dwarf, if you were wondering about source.

Tinfoil-hat clincher: when you turn the Ultramarine symbol upside-down...it's an Omega.

Which was their heraldry before the Heresy, so nope.

Well, accounts seem to vary, as there are a few other sources that state that the actual details about the killing of Alpharius are vague. Even if the above is black and white truth, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Ultramarines weren't walking into a trap that results in the switcheroo scenario. As far as the Omega thing, I'm fully aware that the Ultramarine's symbol has always existed, but that's why I called it the "tin-foil hat clincher". It's sort of like a fun, Dan Brown-esque, leap of logic that goes from a Da Vinci painting to a hidden, secret, religion society. It's a fun leap of fancy, but I'll admit that there are logic leaps.

Unfortunately, GW has all these interesting cliff-hangers among their lore that will never be answered. It leaves fans to speculate, but we'll never get a definitive conclusion to these.

Or if you prefer, I'm an agent of chaos and prone to spreading heresy against the imperium. Dealer's choice.

Wait...what?

One does not just create their own chapter around themselves. There is bureaucracy that must be adhered to dammit!
Heresy indeed.

The director was lucky it was all cancelled. He dodged a million nerd bullets.

ShirowShirow:
Godammit GIVE ME MORE SPACE MARINE it was easily one of the best shooters this generation.

Agreed. It, a cross platform title, got a ton of undeserved flak for some sort of comparison to a single platform title.
It was a fantastic game and is the only game to have conveyed the power wielded by a space marine.

It sounds like a rewrite of the charachter in the Grey Knights books- ends up captured in a losing battle, and is thrown to the Arenas in service to Khorne. He escapes, but he's no longer a grey knight. Presumably, he works directly within the ordo malleus from then on.

Sounds like an interesting plot. As mentioned above, a Space Marine dropping out of the Imperium but still being on the side of Humanity is a concept that's been done before, but it's never been too successful a move for the characters, as they all tend to be captured put on trial, sent on penitent quests, etc. To have seen Titus in a similar position would have been knife edge stuff; he would have been undertaking the riskiest course of action available to a Space Marine. Even going full Chaos traitor carries less risk, as there is the ability to call on allies such as Daemons, other Chaos warbands and Legions, or beseeching the Dark Gods themselves. In the no-man's land between Chaos and the Imperium, friends are very few and far between.

It's worth remembering that whilst the Imperium has a zero tolerance policy on deviation for 99.999% of it's citizens, the Space Marines are a huge exception. In an empire of trillions of souls, there are approximately only a million loyal space marines. This scarcity, combined with the sheer utility a Space Marine represents for the Imperium, normally means that if he can prove himself worthy again he will reaccepted, albeit with a bucketload of mistrust from everyone around him.

As an example, the Mantis Warriors were one of the Chapters who fought alongside Lugft Huron in the Badab War. However, when it turned out that he was not just a renegade, but a heretic, the Mantis ditched him and surrendered to the Imperial forces. Their surrender was accepted, but the entire Chapter was sent on a penitent crusade for 100 years, without being allowed to resupply or replace their losses.

I'm not so sure about a Smurf going rogue. A Space Wolf on the other hand, I could see that. Hell, I just want a game like Space Marine focusing on the Space Wolf chapter. I mean come on, not only are the Space Wolves less dicks to the rest of us humans, then almost any other chapter, their space vikings!

Ultramarine I very much doubt it but its not totaly unheard of for space marines to go rogue. I mean he has a resistance to the warp and im betting the Inquisition would like to use that or even a chapter full of that. Who is to say it would not happen ? Sounds pretty cool to me and interesting story it would have been, a different one for a 40k game anyway.

Just too bad Space Marine stufferd from THQ being run by stupids at this point 2011. Alot seemed to be cut out and sold for DLC. And the single player while not bad left a big "but" to me.

Major Tom:
The second game could have been interesting. Examining what would cause a Space Marine to renounce his oath to the Primarch and the Emperor isn't something that has been done very often (the Badab War is the only one that comes to mind at the moment). Actually, I can see Titus still being loyal to the Emperor and mankind but no longer wanting to work within the constraints of the Codex Astartes and the Imperial system.

But the third game....nope. Not buying it. In the world of 40k, once you've been declared a heretic and a traitor, that's it. No coming back from that, and the Inquisition will probably do their best to carry out Damnatio Memoriae on your very existence if you are prominent enough. And they certainly don't found new Chapters on renegades and heretics

Even if it was a death oath, like suggested before, those things are designed to end in death. A heroic one that redeems your character, but still death. But if you managed to survive, you can't come back anyway because your oath probably made you spend too much time in contact with chaos, xenos, and other renegades. It's a lose-lose situation for the person carrying out the oath. If the game was going to be that Titus would be helping his former battle-brothers from the shadows, or even creating his own renegade chapter from like minded marines, dropping into warzones to fight chaos and xenos threats and bugging out before Loyalist marines (like the Minotaurs, a Chapter that seems to have been created specifically to hunt down renegade marines) or the Inquisition arrived, that would have been more palatable from a lore sense. And probably a far more interesting game.

Going Rogue could mean working for a Radical Inquisitor though. Going rogue then could mean two things: He is forced to compromise his beliefs under the orders of the Inquisitor; or he becomes disgusted with the Inquisitor and kills him for heresy. Either way, going rogue wouldn't mean abandoning the Ultramarines or the Imperium. And even if he is declared a traitor, the Soul Drinkers are an example of a Chapter accused of heresy and the result isn't instant killing of the chapter.

Moloch Sacrifice:
As an example, the Mantis Warriors were one of the Chapters who fought alongside Lugft Huron in the Badab War. However, when it turned out that he was not just a renegade, but a heretic, the Mantis ditched him and surrendered to the Imperial forces. Their surrender was accepted, but the entire Chapter was sent on a penitent crusade for 100 years, without being allowed to resupply or replace their losses.

I thought it was the Lamenters that were sent on a penitent crusade, the Mantis Warriors having been smashed so hard they had to be disbanded. It's been a while since I read any Badab material though.

xaszatm:
Going Rogue could mean working for a Radical Inquisitor though. Going rogue then could mean two things: He is forced to compromise his beliefs under the orders of the Inquisitor; or he becomes disgusted with the Inquisitor and kills him for heresy. Either way, going rogue wouldn't mean abandoning the Ultramarines or the Imperium. And even if he is declared a traitor, the Soul Drinkers are an example of a Chapter accused of heresy and the result isn't instant killing of the chapter.

I don't really think the first one works as going rogue. Even if they are Radical, until he or she is declared traitor they still are an Inquisitor, with all the power and privileges that brings. His former battle-brothers may despise him, but as long as he can flash that =I= symbol around they can't touch him. Now Titus wouldn't like working for a Radical one bit, so 'going rogue' could work in that sense that he gets himself involved in the internal intrigues of the Inquisition, working with more conservative Inquisitors against his master. But the second point most definitely.

As for the Soul Drinkers, I've only read a synopsis but there is an important distinction there: Declared a traitor and heretic as opposed to accused of treachery and heresy.

Titus was already in custody. If the idea was that Titus was to escape custody, I would find it unlikely that he wouldn't be declared traitor, as he is being held for trial for what he is, rather than what he has done, as was the case of the Soul Drinkers and his escape only proves his guilt in the eyes of the Inquisition. The original intent was probably to have Titus discover his secret, clear his name and everything would be hunky dory. But the Imperium isn't so forgiving. Even if there was an Inquisitor running interference on his behalf in order to buy him time to discover the secret (for the benefit of the Inquisition, of course), I don't think he could go truly go back. There'd be a cloud of suspicion over him that only a heroic death would clear. He'd be the Inquisitions plaything till the end of his days.

Major Tom:
I thought it was the Lamenters that were sent on a penitent crusade, the Mantis Warriors having been smashed so hard they had to be disbanded. It's been a while since I read any Badab material though.

Both of them were sent on crusades, but it was the Lamenters were smashed to below 300 marines (most of whom were wounded) by the Minotaurs chapter. In the 'present day' the Lamenters are considered lost, due to their disappearance after engagements with Hive fleet Kraken.

TekMoney:
Considering how tight a handle on their IP Games Workshop maintains. They would never have let this story happen.

This, and not just because Ultramarines are their special snowflake poster boys. As others have commented, it's like someone read the Soul Drinkers trilogy...while drunk.

That said, I'd have preferred to see Titus conscripted into the Deathwatch or maybe even the Inquisitor's Retinue.

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