I just watched Hard Boiled again...

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
Using cover is less riskier.

You haven't played Max Payne 3 in years. So much of what you've said over the last several months is inaccurate.

It's not a cover shooter.

Yes, it is.

I skimmed and skipped reading a lot of what you said because I can't be bothered right now. Maybe later.

Anyway, I found the YouTuber's claim that health regen has "a rip-roaring sense of forward momentum" so ridiculous that I decided to ask the Codexers if he was full of shit saying that.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/is-this-youtuber-full-of-shit-health-regen.119012/

I like replies 12, 13 and 8.

But the problem there is, referring to post #12, he's contradicting (fixed, stupid phone autocorrect) himself. There is no conditional benefit to one or the other. Saying regen sucks in SP but then flipping around saying it can be good in MP is admitting it does what it intends to do, which is keep the flow of the game. Maybe he was playing the wrong games if he didn't find SP regen as functional. Maybe there aren't any good examples of it on PC either, idk.

What I typically find when playing a health pack shooter is that it does generally force you to play more conservatively and tactfully if you don't know when your next pick up will be available. This can force you into a very slow paced game of cat and mouse, where you wait for your opponent to make a move, or duck in and out of sight to see how they react before making a run for the next piece of cover. Often times I'll just end up hiding and waiting to see if the bad guys go away. This was how I played through a good portion of STALKER's tougher sections and similar games.

Then you have the save system compounding (or exploiting) the design limitations. With health pack shooters you can typically quicksave to no end, ensuring incremental progress even if you don't play very carefully. With regen you are typically in a more linear console-like experience and a checkpoint system. I've generally found them to be more challenging when it comes to single player campaigns, but only because it's so easy to savescum health pack shooters.

Case in point, it really depends on the design. I can have a blast with either system, but they each ultimately offer a very different kind of thrill.

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
Using cover is less riskier.

You haven't played Max Payne 3 in years. So much of what you've said over the last several months is inaccurate.

I remember MP3 very well because it's literally my least favorite game I've ever played, it left a mark. What did I say that isn't true? It's a freaking shooter with cover and bullet time, there's not much to it. How is cover more riskier? That makes no sense unless the game were to inundate you with grenades like a COD game on Veteran or something. Even Uncharted forces you to move more than MP3. I even remember that horrid last fight with the grenade launcher dude where you'll get cutscene killed if you move too far to the left or right because of "reasons".

It's not a cover shooter.

Yes, it is.

Even your boy from Previously Recorded explained how the other guy played it wrong. You're not supposed to play it like a cover shooter. There's literal video evidence all over the Internet, even freaking Gamespot "got it". It's a deconstruction of the genre in fact. I "got it" immediately on release as I posted this thread literally 5 days after release. Funny how you might think I'm the dude from that Gamespot video as he says almost everything I said about the game.

I skimmed and skipped reading a lot of what you said because I can't be bothered right now. Maybe later.

I decided to ask the Codexers if he was full of shit saying that.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/is-this-youtuber-full-of-shit-health-regen.119012/

I like replies 12, 13 and 8.

Pretty much what Hansel said above me. Also, health regen is worse in multiplayer just due to the fact you can hit a guy first failing to finish the kill and then like 10 or so seconds later he can reengage you in combat and be at full health after you hit him first. That's the core reason I don't like full health regen in a competitive environment.

Phoenixmgs:
I skimmed and skipped reading a lot of what you said because I can't be bothered right now. Maybe later.

Cute. I skimmed and skipped because we've been having the same argument for months and I had a busy day.

How is cover more riskier?

I explained it to you before. You're not listening. I'm not alone in saying this.

14 second clip.

Vanquish is still a paradox of a game. I think an enemy health harvesting system where the health explodes out of enemies after long periods of delivering damage without receiving any, similar to Devil May Cry, would have been better. It's how Doom stays fast-paced without ever forcing the player to freaking wait. Only, you know, without it being a scripted, uncontrollable kill.

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
How is cover more riskier?

I explained it to you before. You're not listening. I'm not alone in saying this.

14 second clip.

Vanquish is still a paradox of a game. I think an enemy health harvesting system where the health explodes out of enemies after long periods of delivering damage without receiving any, similar to Devil May Cry, would have been better. It's how Doom stays fast-paced without ever forcing the player to freaking wait. Only, you know, without it being a scripted, uncontrollable kill.

So you and one other guy are saying it... And, the last video you posted proved that sitting in cover is safe, the guy stuck to the pillar the whole gunfight and got hit once. The amount of skill it takes to play without using cover is far above the average gamer especially on a first playthrough. Coupled with the fact that the enemies in MP3 barely flush you out means you can move around even less than Uncharted. Even in the above clip, how is someone going to die if they just stay in cover there? The enemies don't have grenades and they'd have to cross that narrow wooden bridge/walkway if they come at you. Whereas if you shoot-dodge toward them and miss, you're pretty much dead, especially with how fast you die in MP3. There were far too many shootouts at mid/long range in the game that you could camp pretty damn easy like that airport level.

When I play Vanquish, I'm never waiting. You posted your gameplay videos and I told you what you were doing wrong.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
How is cover more riskier?

I explained it to you before. You're not listening. I'm not alone in saying this.

14 second clip.

Vanquish is still a paradox of a game. I think an enemy health harvesting system where the health explodes out of enemies after long periods of delivering damage without receiving any, similar to Devil May Cry, would have been better. It's how Doom stays fast-paced without ever forcing the player to freaking wait. Only, you know, without it being a scripted, uncontrollable kill.

So you and one other guy are saying it... And, the last video you posted proved that sitting in cover is safe, the guy stuck to the pillar the whole gunfight and got hit once. The amount of skill it takes to play without using cover is far above the average gamer especially on a first playthrough. Coupled with the fact that the enemies in MP3 barely flush you out means you can move around even less than Uncharted. Even in the above clip, how is someone going to die if they just stay in cover there? The enemies don't have grenades and they'd have to cross that narrow wooden bridge/walkway if they come at you. Whereas if you shoot-dodge toward them and miss, you're pretty much dead, especially with how fast you die in MP3.

He didn't get shot once, he got shot five times. Before I started playing like this, there were too many instances in which I got shot when popping out of cover. Other times, they would rush in from a bad angle and I would still be stuck to the wall. Molotovs, although they don't show up often, kill you almost instantly. Explosives kill you instantly unless you shoot dodge. As I said, using bullet time and the roll makes it only easier. You can dodge bullets.

There were far too many shootouts at mid/long range in the game that you could camp pretty damn easy like that airport level.

Okay, let's see how well I do in the airport using as much cover as possible (even though you're not gonna watch all of it anyway).

Now let's see how well I do rushing it. My latest chapter 14 speedrun:

I used fewer painkillers and died less by rushing it. I got out of the first area, the baggage room, with three painkillers. In my cover video, I had zero painkillers left. Also, in my cover video, I had no painkillers left before I was even at the end of the huge departure lounge. I died. In my second attempt, I had one bottle of painkillers left.

Go ahead, come up with more excuses. I know you will. I don't know why I even bother anymore.

When I play Vanquish, I'm never waiting. You posted your gameplay videos and I told you what you were doing wrong.

You're insufferable. The first vid I posted had me sliding and running around in the open.

Because you're so insufferable, you never chose to forgive my loadout. You brought it up again and again and again even after I was well past that and despite the weapons not even being a main point of contention in my repeated complaints. You then decided to be a total prick over one area I was having trouble with.

If I saw someone struggling with Max Payne 3, I wouldn't lord it over them for eternity and ignore their complaints. But that's how you are.

From everything you've said, all the bullshit you've spread over the last couple of months, I'm pretty sure I know Vanquish better than you know Max Payne 3.

Lord have mercy does that Vanquish slide look retarded or what. Good on you for giving it an honest to god go of liking it 'Zeke. That doofy looking slide is a barrier to entry that I'll never be able to overcome.

ZombieProof:
Lord have mercy does that Vanquish slide look retarded or what. Good on you for giving it an honest to god go of liking it 'Zeke. That doofy looking slide is a barrier to entry that I'll never be able to overcome.

Phoenixmgs thrives off dat slide...tread lightly in hurrr.

hanselthecaretaker:

ZombieProof:
Lord have mercy does that Vanquish slide look retarded or what. Good on you for giving it an honest to god go of liking it 'Zeke. That doofy looking slide is a barrier to entry that I'll never be able to overcome.

Phoenixmgs thrives off dat slide...tread lightly in hurrr.

:D
image

Wow, Cross gave a really good response in post 45.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/is-this-youtuber-full-of-shit-health-regen.119012/page-2#post-5369492

He listed important issues with health regen and then explained how Vanquish is very much a cover shooter. Like he said, the main character is weak, like in most other health regen shooters, and he has limited mobility (stamina) too, which pushes you to go into the defensive often.

Ezekiel:
snip

First things first, why the hell were you purposefully gimping yourself in the cover video and not using fucking bullet-time? Why would someone play Max Payne and not utilize bullet-time? Also, bullets whizzing by you in cover builds your bullet-time meter as well so you can literally exploit that by popping up and shooting with bullet-time, then sit in cover waiting for the meter to build back up. But, of course, you know MP3 so much better than me...

Moving on... The baggage section there is designed to not be camped at least at the very beginning where there's like no (good) cover and you have to at least work your way to a good spot, which you did like a minute in. @ 1:40 you could've just stayed in that stairwell and kept picking them off from there. @ 4:15, the terminal section was the section I was referring to when I said airport level. Those gunfights are too long-ranged for a Max Payne game IMO and are quite easily camped. The start of the video in baggage is what a game like MP3 should be about, putting the player in "how am I going to get out of this?" situations instead of there's a bunch of enemies over there and a bunch of cover right here so I guess I'll stay here then. Anyway, on your 1st try, why did you go right instead of left where all the cover is? Proper camping is as much about positioning (keep all the enemies at your 12) as it is sticking to cover. @ ~4:50-6:00 I don't know how you didn't die as there's a least one guy that has a super easy shot from the 2nd level. I literally couldn't believe you didn't die there as that is such a horrible position. @ 12:55 why not just stay in the control room and use cover shooting out the window there?

The other video is definitely the more fun way to play and MP3 can obviously be played like that (which I never said you couldn't play like that). Shoot-dodging down the escalator was cool. It sure does help that you obviously not only know the physical level layout, you also know all the enemy locations. You really can't ask anyone to play like that on a 1st playthrough. You wouldn't even be able to play like that on say your 1st playthrough on say an MP4 (if Rockstar ever makes that) without dying a bunch of times. Also, it wasn't like you weren't getting hit either. One mistake in the open is game over vs you can still survive making a mistake close/next to cover. I really don't get how you can say your way of playing is safer.

I was complaining about your loadout in some other video you posted when fighting against the BIA, which is a pretty good chunk into the game at that point. A sniper, AR, and HMG is literally the worst loadout you can have in Vanquish. Plus, there were all these great guns just laying around that you chose to ignore. I don't think I saw that first video with the 2 bosses before. You're supposed to get up close and under them. Shotgun their weak spots and blast away at the main weak spot when they fall over. It's not rocket science. In the 2nd video there, I just asked why were you using cover so much and in the middle of the level to boot. Go fully left or right to keep the enemies on one side so you can't get shot from the left and right at once.

Ezekiel:
Wow, Cross gave a really good response in post 45.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/is-this-youtuber-full-of-shit-health-regen.119012/page-2#post-5369492

He listed important issues with health regen and then explained how Vanquish is very much a cover shooter. Like he said, the main character is weak, like in most other health regen shooters, and he has limited mobility (stamina) too, which pushes you to go into the defensive often.

So the guy Cross was replying to was wrong and Cross is right just because you say so?
"Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster."

Are you seriously trying to "prove" that Max Payne is stronger and has more mobility in MP3 than Sam in Vanquish? Because that's a pretty damn ridiculous argument.

ZombieProof:

hanselthecaretaker:

ZombieProof:
Lord have mercy does that Vanquish slide look retarded or what. Good on you for giving it an honest to god go of liking it 'Zeke. That doofy looking slide is a barrier to entry that I'll never be able to overcome.

Phoenixmgs thrives off dat slide...tread lightly in hurrr.

:D
image

How the slide looks in your opinion is irrelevant to its mechanics / what it accomplishes. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. However, Ezekiel is literally trying to "prove" that you have limited mobility in Vanquish, which makes no sense as it's arguably the shooter with the most mobility especially horizontally as it doesn't have verticality of arena-type shooters.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
snip

First things first, why the hell were you purposefully gimping yourself in the cover video and not using fucking bullet-time? Why would someone play Max Payne and not utilize bullet-time? Also, bullets whizzing by you in cover builds your bullet-time meter as well so you can literally exploit that by popping up and shooting with bullet-time, then sit in cover waiting for the meter to build back up. But, of course, you know MP3 so much better than me...

I wasn't purposely doing that. I just wasn't using it much because playing it in such a boring way failed to put me in the zone, and I'm not used to putting self-imposed limitations on myself (like using a lot of cover). I use a lot of bullet time while I'm running because it's harder to be accurate while moving. It's far less essential when you're just sitting around in cover. It might also be because I've been playing nothing but multiplayer since my last speedrun, dated eight days ago. Only one of my loadouts has bullet time right now, my sniper loadout. I've had the music off in multiplayer lately, which perhaps made it feel a little similar. I just recorded myself again, using a lot of bullet time in cover. It didn't go much better.

I got out of the departure lounge with no painkillers. As before, I only picked up one of the pill bottles in the departure lounge. I finished the tram station with no painkillers on hand. A big problem, I found, is that enemies were shooting me from bad angles and taking A LOT of health. Which is what I've been saying.

Moving on... The baggage section there is designed to not be camped at least at the very beginning where there's like no (good) cover and you have to at least work your way to a good spot, which you did like a minute in. @ 1:40 you could've just stayed in that stairwell and kept picking them off from there.

There's nowhere to attach to in that stairwell area. That big barrel with the traffic cone on top is in the way. You said the game is easier with lots of cover, so I'm using cover.

@ 4:15, the terminal section was the section I was referring to when I said airport level. Those gunfights are too long-ranged for a Max Payne game IMO

Disagree.

and are quite easily camped.

But easier to rush.

The start of the video in baggage is what a game like MP3 should be about, putting the player in "how am I going to get out of this?" situations instead of there's a bunch of enemies over there and a bunch of cover right here so I guess I'll stay here then.

I'd rather have a variety of situations, including the more open sniper areas of Max Payne 1. Running and sniping in the multiplayer is a lot of fun. It's a shame there's none of that in the single player.

Anyway, on your 1st try, why did you go right instead of left where all the cover is? Proper camping is as much about positioning (keep all the enemies at your 12) as it is sticking to cover.

I don't know. Maybe so I could get a better position on the guys coming out of the control room and running down the catwalk.

@ ~4:50-6:00 I don't know how you didn't die as there's a least one guy that has a super easy shot from the 2nd level. I literally couldn't believe you didn't die there as that is such a horrible position.

The one more on the right side of the level? I was covered by the luggage carts. I didn't realize they provided good cover, so when I saw the sparks on them, I rolled to the wall on the right. The cover there was even worse, as I was getting shot by everyone from the left. So I rolled back. I do see what you're talking about close to six minutes. Figuring out the right cover in that spot is honestly more complicated than just running and gunning.

@ 12:55 why not just stay in the control room and use cover shooting out the window there?

Because I run out of that control room every single time. Habit.

The other video is definitely the more fun way to play and MP3 can obviously be played like that (which I never said you couldn't play like that). Shoot-dodging down the escalator was cool. It sure does help that you obviously not only know the physical level layout, you also know all the enemy locations.

I know many of their locations, not all. Doesn't make a huge difference, though. Dead Men Walking has random spawns, and I played that for two and a half hours, alone. I was grateful when a grenade finally killed me.

You really can't ask anyone to play like that on a 1st playthrough. You wouldn't even be able to play like that on say your 1st playthrough on say an MP4 (if Rockstar ever makes that)

Hahahahaha, lol.

without dying a bunch of times. Also, it wasn't like you weren't getting hit either. One mistake in the open is game over vs you can still survive making a mistake close/next to cover. I really don't get how you can say your way of playing is safer.

Unfortunately, there are no more ways I can explain it to you.

I was complaining about your loadout in some other video you posted when fighting against the BIA, which is a pretty good chunk into the game at that point. A sniper, AR, and HMG is literally the worst loadout you can have in Vanquish. Plus, there were all these great guns just laying around that you chose to ignore. I don't think I saw that first video with the 2 bosses before. You're supposed to get up close and under them. Shotgun their weak spots and blast away at the main weak spot when they fall over. It's not rocket science. In the 2nd video there, I just asked why were you using cover so much and in the middle of the level to boot. Go fully left or right to keep the enemies on one side so you can't get shot from the left and right at once.

Ezekiel:
Wow, Cross gave a really good response in post 45.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/is-this-youtuber-full-of-shit-health-regen.119012/page-2#post-5369492

He listed important issues with health regen and then explained how Vanquish is very much a cover shooter. Like he said, the main character is weak, like in most other health regen shooters, and he has limited mobility (stamina) too, which pushes you to go into the defensive often.

So the guy Cross was replying to was wrong and Cross is right just because you say so?
"Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster."

Are you seriously trying to "prove" that Max Payne is stronger and has more mobility in MP3 than Sam in Vanquish? Because that's a pretty damn ridiculous argument.

Never said anything about Max's mobility. Painkillers and med kits make you less weak, though. They don't constantly force you into defense.

ZombieProof:

hanselthecaretaker:

Phoenixmgs thrives off dat slide...tread lightly in hurrr.

:D
image

How the slide looks in your opinion is irrelevant to its mechanics / what it accomplishes. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. However, Ezekiel is literally trying to "prove" that you have limited mobility in Vanquish, which makes no sense as it's arguably the shooter with the most mobility especially horizontally as it doesn't have verticality of arena-type shooters.

And a stamina system that runs out after a few short seconds. That is limited mobility. In my experience, simply running around in the open (without stamina) is more dangerous in Vanquish than it is in Max Payne 3.

Ezekiel:
Wow, Cross gave a really good response in post 45.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/is-this-youtuber-full-of-shit-health-regen.119012/page-2#post-5369492

He listed important issues with health regen and then explained how Vanquish is very much a cover shooter. Like he said, the main character is weak, like in most other health regen shooters, and he has limited mobility (stamina) too, which pushes you to go into the defensive often.

Those were all critically well thought out, but I think that point (about forced defensiveness) could go either way, considering with health pack shooters you actually have something that needs defending: your health bar. Game pacing is about the only thing I can't fault regen-based design for, but it's a shallow system when thats really all it has going for it. There's no need for tactfullness or deep gameplay systems as these games are as much for show as any skill involved. They actually could all be considered tech demos in terms of actual game design.

I really like Horizon: ZD's approach to health, since it gives the option to eliminate what I consider the only real negative that health pack design could have: being forced to hunker down and trying to exploit AI when you're out of health. By making health pick-ups available through crafting and also procedurally through certain vegetation, you can take the time to stockpile potions or your life bar, which will keep the combat fast and constantly engaging. If you still manage to run out, mostly by being careless, you can either run away and forfeit like a coward to hunt for plants or find a trader, or risk current progress going in gung-ho or stealth. It gives the option of trading time for more resources, but of course you could also go in bare minimum for a real challenge.

Having said that, neither system is perfect, since both regen and health packs require a huge suspension bridge of disbelief. I would like to see a more realistic damage/carry system without any bar or screen jam, where you reacted and behave according to how much and what kind of damage you take, and your end-condition would be your "ranking". Different gear could be acquired to improve your odds, and it would be entirely possible to get through unscathed if skilled enough, but incredibly rare. It would require either very careful stealth or incredible combat efficiency, with possibly even a bit of divine luck, because hey stranger things can and have happened. Progress would be persistent and save constantly similar to a Souls game.

But it would take a certain kind of game. A gritty third person shooter most likely, where physics really plays into enemy/environmental damage. Limb useage would be affected. You could scavenge supplies from a number of resources to patch yourself up or try to get help, but how and when you do so would affect your status. Break into a pharmacy and you better hope security cameras didn't see you or you'll have to deal with the authorities. You would never fully heal anyways for the playthrough since it would be real time, but it could buy you valuable time and vitality/acuteness.

Regardless, people can normally survive a good amount of gunshot wounds to their limbs and even torso from most handguns and even smaller caliber rifles. There's surprisingly decent survivability taking headshot from a .22 as long as it doesn't hit you in the eye or temple, but otherwise lights out. Shotguns would blow holes through people at close range and larger guage, machine guns would literally shred bodies to pulp, etc. But these weapons would be loud and sloppy, drawing unwanted attention. Be prepared for a fight and hope you can take advantage of your surroundings, which would vary from open fields to dense forests, to urban areas both well kept and highly populated, or decayed and vacant.

I know my mind is wandering past the current technology, but it's good to dream.

hanselthecaretaker:
Having said that, neither system is perfect, since both regen and health packs require a huge suspension bridge of disbelief. I would like to see a more realistic damage/carry system without any bar or screen jam, where you reacted and behave according to how much and what kind of damage you take, and your end-condition would be your ?ranking?. Different gear could be acquired to improve your odds, and it would be entirely possible to get through unscathed if skilled enough, but incredibly rare. It would require either very careful stealth or incredible combat efficiency, with possibly even a bit of divine luck, because hey stranger things can and have happened. Progress would be persistent and save constantly similar to a Souls game.

But it would take a certain kind of game. A gritty third person shooter most likely, where physics really plays into enemy/environmental damage. Limb useage would be affected. You could scavenge supplies from a number of resources to patch yourself up or try to get help, but how and when you do so would affect your status. Break into a pharmacy and you better hope security cameras didn?t see you or you?ll have to deal with the authorities. You would never fully heal anyways for the playthrough since it would be real time, but it could buy you valuable time and vitality/acuteness.

Sounds like a great Terminator or Battle Angel Alita-type game. It's perfect for a battle cyborg who can take plenty of damage and move realistically according to the damage to their frame. They would repair themselves in safe houses with gathered supplies, similar to your pharmaceutical idea. Some of that damage, you would see on their frame throughout the campaign. The other benefit is that it would have a variety of enemies (robots), not just humans.

It's amazingly unfortunate that we haven't really had a great Terminator game. I guess the timing just hasn't been right, because the series has gotten worse/less popular as gaming tech has gotten better. But I've read that Jim C. is back on board to produce a new trilogy that ignores everything after T2.

There is still hope.

Ezekiel:
I wasn't purposely doing that. I just wasn't using it much because playing it in such a boring way failed to put me in the zone, and I'm not used to putting self-imposed limitations on myself (like using a lot of cover). I use a lot of bullet time while I'm running because it's harder to be accurate while moving. It's far less essential when you're just sitting around in cover. It might also be because I've been playing nothing but multiplayer since my last speedrun, dated eight days ago. Only one of my loadouts has bullet time right now, my sniper loadout. I've had the music off in multiplayer lately, which perhaps made it feel a little similar. I just recorded myself again, using a lot of bullet time in cover. It didn't go much better.

I got out of the departure lounge with no painkillers. As before, I only picked up one of the pill bottles in the departure lounge. I finished the tram station with no painkillers on hand. A big problem, I found, is that enemies were shooting me from bad angles and taking A LOT of health. Which is what I've been saying.

See how much easier and faster that catwalk battle at the start went when using bullet-time vs the other video? It's basically the same limitation a Souls game puts on you, which is that every action you take should be with survival as the only consideration. Souls games become so easy if you just use that mindset. Anyway, I got to about the halfway point during the terminal section and you keep putting yourself in horrible positions, going right down the center of the level for example. The goal is whether you are rushing or camping is to get every enemy in front of you so you can see them all in the camera at once and can't get shot from off-screen. At the very start of the terminal it's pretty easy to go left, kill everyone on the floor level (using the environment to stay under the enemies on the top), then take care of the guys on top (whether you're rushing or camping). I still don't get how that guy on the top that you kill @ 5:05 (ver. 2) didn't kill you in either video. Then, you go right down the middle again in the 2nd section of the terminal putting enemies literally all around you. Positioning is 90% of any shooter.

There's nowhere to attach to in that stairwell area. That big barrel with the traffic cone on top is in the way. You said the game is easier with lots of cover, so I'm using cover.

You don't always have to use the cover system to use cover. That short section starting @ 3:10 (ver. 2), you use cover better without using the cover system as Max exposes less of his body "corner camping" without attaching to cover than he would've if you actually used the cover system. Positioning on both the macro (general map positioning) and micro levels is the difference between living and dying especially against in MP. Cover in any shooter is really only useful on the cliche chest-high walls because a normal wall is easier to corner camp not using the cover system, which is why "soft" cover systems like MGS5/MGO3 fail because I want to be next to a wall but I don't want to attach and those systems stick you to cover when you don't want to.

I'd rather have a variety of situations, including the more open sniper areas of Max Payne 1. Running and sniping in the multiplayer is a lot of fun. It's a shame there's none of that in the single player.

A sniper rifle would sorta break any semblance of difficulty in MP3.

The one more on the right side of the level? I was covered by the luggage carts. I didn't realize they provided good cover, so when I saw the sparks on them, I rolled to the wall on the right. The cover there was even worse, as I was getting shot by everyone from the left. So I rolled back. I do see what you're talking about close to six minutes. Figuring out the right cover in that spot is honestly more complicated than just running and gunning.

The guy you kill @ 5:05 (ver. 2). The freaking mop bucket even protected you somehow, ridiculous. Figuring out proper positioning is 2nd nature for me after the hours I've logged in MP shooters. Literally the second you went right at the start of the terminal, I was shaking my head. Same thing when you didn't take the high ground in the 2nd section of the terminal (ver. 2).

And a stamina system that runs out after a few short seconds. That is limited mobility. In my experience, simply running around in the open (without stamina) is more dangerous in Vanquish than it is in Max Payne 3.

The stamina system is constantly refreshing, the point is to manage it, which you can. You can play out in the open with less risk in Vanquish than MP3 because you have more energy than Max has bullet-time that also refreshes faster, you have more actions that grant i-frames, you have more mobility to get to a safe area if needed, and Max also dies much faster than Sam. Again, there's tons of videos of people playing Vanquish in a way that you say isn't possible.

You say all this, but that just proves that using cover is more work, that it's more complicated.

Again, there's tons of videos of people playing Vanquish in a way that you say isn't possible.

Never said it wasn't possible. But it's hard. It takes a high skill level that, for me, the game isn't nearly interesting enough to reach.

Ezekiel:
You say all this, but that just proves that using cover is more work, that it's harder.

Again, there's tons of videos of people playing Vanquish in a way that you say isn't possible.

Never said it wasn't possible. But it's hard. It takes a high skill level that, for me, the game isn't nearly interesting enough to reach.

Playing with the mindset of every action you take going towards surviving is hard? Knowing not to go down the literal middle of a level with enemies all around is hard? Vanquish's skill level is less because it doesn't require great execution skills like aiming that MP3 actually does require. There's quite a few videos on how awesome Vanquish is, you think all them just so happen to be amazingly skilled gamers?

You know that old saying "work smart, not hard"?

Phoenixmgs:

I'd rather have a variety of situations, including the more open sniper areas of Max Payne 1. Running and sniping in the multiplayer is a lot of fun. It's a shame there's none of that in the single player.

A sniper rifle would sorta break any semblance of difficulty in MP3.

Why?

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
A sniper rifle would sorta break any semblance of difficulty in MP3.

Why?

A powerful rifle combined (assuming it could be a one-hit body kill or 2-3 hits) with a scope with magnification and bullet-time would make the game pretty damn easy assuming you got enough ammo to use it quite often. There's a reason why the AR that has a scope has like no magnification (maybe like 1.x zoom if that).

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
A sniper rifle would sorta break any semblance of difficulty in MP3.

Why?

A powerful rifle combined (assuming it could be a one-hit body kill or 2-3 hits) with a scope with magnification and bullet-time would make the game pretty damn easy assuming you got enough ammo to use it quite often. There's a reason why the AR that has a scope has like no magnification (maybe like 1.x zoom if that).

It wasn't a problem in MP1 and 2. It would be even less of a problem in MP3 because of the temporary carry system. The departure lounge is fine. Every room doesn't have to be small.

Edit: Just found this:

Cool. Like I said, it's a shame there's none of this in the single player. The vid makes me want to be more reckless with sniper rifles. But it's probably harder on PC Free Aim. This is the farthest no scope I've been able to manage:

image

Ezekiel:
Yeah, developers barely give a shit about physics. Characters are still glued to the ground and there is very little impact from explosions and large calibers.

This happened today:

image

I was ecstatic. Physics are so underused.

Ezekiel:

Ezekiel:
Yeah, developers barely give a shit about physics. Characters are still glued to the ground and there is very little impact from explosions and large calibers.

This happened today:

image

I was ecstatic. Physics are so underused.

Reminds me of this game called Pain, which is essentially a glorified, whacked out physics demo. Every now and then I'll go back to it for some lol's.

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here