Xbox 360 sales banned in Germany

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http://www.develop-online.net/news/40667/Xbox-360-sales-forbidden-across-Germany

Windows 7 OS, Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player also banned; Xboxes may be recalled and destroyed

An extraordinary ruling declared today in a Mannheim court has resulted in a ban on selling Xbox 360 consoles throughout Germany.

Microsoft will no longer be able to distribute the console to retailers, and may be forced to recall systems sitting on shop shelves and have them destroyed.

The ruling will not come into effect until Microsoft's appeal process has concluded.

Also banned is Windows 7 OS discs, as well as the electronic distribution of Internet Explorer and Windows Media player.

The shock ruling is due to Motorola Mobility, a phones company which Google is in the process of acquiring, today being granted an injunction against the distribution of key Microsoft products in Germany.

Motorola Mobility, which last year posted an annual loss of $145 million, was successful in convincing the court that Microsoft had infringed two patents central to the H.264 video coding and playback.

"We are pleased that the Mannheim Court found that Microsoft products infringe Motorola Mobility's intellectual property," Motorola Mobility said in a statement.

The company said it was still keen on resolving the matter, but Microsoft believes that meeting all demands would cost it about $4 billion each year.

"This is one step in a long process, and we are confident that Motorola will eventually be held to its promise to make its standard essential patents available on fair and reasonable terms for the benefit of consumers who enjoy video on the web," a Microsoft spokesman told the BBC.

Not sure if to be happy about them banning Microsoft products (especially the Xbox 360) or to be mad about one of the most retarded patent infringement lawsuits to date.

Dexter111:
Not sure if to be happy about them banning Microsoft products (especially the Xbox 360)...

Okay, I'll bite.

Why would you be happy about that?

Zhukov:

Dexter111:
Not sure if to be happy about them banning Microsoft products (especially the Xbox 360)...

Okay, I'll bite.

Why would you be happy about that?

Yeah, I am confused. What about the poor Germans who want a 360 Slim? :(

WW3 is a brewin'

Zhukov:

Why would you be happy about that?

Okay, maybe "happy" isn't the right word. Overjoyed, delighted or filled with Schadenfreude might be the better fit.

Sooooooo Motorola gets a fiscal kick in the nuts and they decide to attack Microsoft to make up for lost revenue? Certainly seems that way, at least...because once again this seems like the kind of lawsuit that asks the question of "Why the fuck didn't you guys bring this up when the devices that caused the infringement came out?"

Dexter111:

Zhukov:

Why would you be happy about that?

Okay, maybe "happy" isn't the right word. Overjoyed, delighted or filled with Schadenfreude might be the better fit.

Ooooo-kay.

You still didn't answer the question. Why would you be overjoyed, delighted or filled with schadenfreude?

Zhukov:

Dexter111:

Zhukov:

Why would you be happy about that?

Okay, maybe "happy" isn't the right word. Overjoyed, delighted or filled with Schadenfreude might be the better fit.

Ooooo-kay.

You still didn't answer the question. Why would you be overjoyed, delighted or filled with schadenfreude?

I'm guessing he's a Mac and not a PC. :P

Wait, what? Seriously? Windows 7? X-Box? Banned?

Wow, and I thought American copyright law was stupid...

Well at least they did one good thing in banning Internet Explorer =P

Andy Shandy:
Well at least they did one good thing in banning Internet Explorer =P

But then how will Germans download firefox... or opera... or chrome, etc.

sextus the crazy:

Andy Shandy:
Well at least they did one good thing in banning Internet Explorer =P

But then how will Germans download firefox... or opera... or chrome, etc.

Good question =P In fact, how can they ban it? Or is just downloading updates/newer versions of it?

Zhukov:
Ooooo-kay.

You still didn't answer the question. Why would you be overjoyed, delighted or filled with schadenfreude?

Microsoft/Xbox Live was literally the first to charge for "Downloadable Content" in 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downloadable_content#On_consoles and they also propagated the DLC model by anchoring it in their Xbox Live Marketplace come Xbox 360.

They are known for their strict policy towards Updates, each developer has one "free" Content Update, but every additional one is forcibly supposed to be priced as "DLC" since they want to "create value", they got into disputes with Valve over that more than once.
Same for EPIC Games, they were pissed too at first, but nowadays they embraced the model and are even defending "Day One DLC".

They are the first to charge people per month to play Online outside of MMOs, they also tried that on PC with Games for Windows Live, but PC gamers literally told them to fuck off and take their closed-off proprietary platform with them.

They take ~10$ on top of every console game sale as licensing costs for their platform, they have licensing fees for multiple disc titles per disc too.

They banished most indie games to XBLIG with near to no promotion, most games require a publishing deal to be able to appear on XBLA (either self-published by Microsoft like most new Double Fine games... for instance "Trenched", which they have a problem porting to PC even though they want to since Microsoft was publisher or Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet etc. or they need to find third party publishers like Bastion did with Warner Bros. or Stacking/Costume Quest with THQ) :
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/07/xblig-feature.ars
http://www.lazygamer.net/xbox-360/xbox-live-arcade-not-profitable/

They even wanted to cut Indie devs royalties to half of what it was at one point, but backed down after another overwhelming "fuck you" from just about everyone: http://kotaku.com/359668/microsoft-cuts-indie-royalties-in-half

This were the results of Indie developers being asked which platform is best to work with:
http://nightmaremode.net/2011/10/steam-beats-xblapsn-as-easiest-platform-to-develop-indie-games-on-12073/

image

We also long found out that Microsoft is charging developers 40.000$ for every Patch/Update, while on other platforms like Steam it's well... free: http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2012/02/16/microsofts-40000-per-xbox-patch-explains-why-updates-are-slow-to-roll-out/

They had a 55% failure rate on their consoles: http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/24/microsoft-responds-to-xbox-360-54-2-percent-failure-rate-report/ and are manufacturing them in China at a place where the workers are threatening with Mass Suicide: http://kotaku.com/5874706/report-mass-suicide-threats-at-xbox-360-plant

They force exclusivity of titles on their platforms and even "refuse sloppy seconds" to punish developers releasing their games on other platforms:
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2011/08/24/microsoft-not-interested-in-publishing-downloadable-games-that-were-on-psn-first-microsoft-says-they-wont-publish-games-on-xbox-live-arcade-if-they-were-on-psn-first-games-that-get-more-content-on/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-24-why-microsoft-wont-publish-psn-firsts

Oh yeah, and when they started with their console product cycle instead of doing their own thing/having their own lineup like Nintendo and SONY they purely fished in the PC side for developers, buying or paying off several of them like Bungie, EPIC Games or Remedy to produce Exclusive titles for them. They're also a major force in the homogenization and dumbification/decline of gaming altogether and those are just a few things.

Anything coming for them like a typhoon or a flood or something would just be considered fair judgement by force majeure :P

Um... What?

I mean, what?

How...

Why...

Dafuq...

Like, seriously? Alright, lets get this shit started.

>consolololol

No, seriously though. What the actual fuck. Curious to see if this is for real.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Um... What?

I mean, what?

How...

Why...

Dafuq...

Like, seriously? Alright, lets get this shit started.

>consolololol

No, seriously though. What the actual fuck. Curious to see if this is for real.

Yeah you live in Germany don't you. I assume you can still get Widows 7 updates and everything through normal channels right?

Fappy:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Um... What?

I mean, what?

How...

Why...

Dafuq...

Like, seriously? Alright, lets get this shit started.

>consolololol

No, seriously though. What the actual fuck. Curious to see if this is for real.

Yeah you live in Germany don't you. I assume you can still get Widows 7 updates and everything through normal channels right?

To be perfectly honest I dont really give a toss. I bought Windows 7 and trust me, I will get my updates one way or another. Not going to let some copyright lawsuit get between me and the updates I paid for (kinda).

Its just other people I am worried about. Businesses for example. If they cant buy Windows anymore, what operating system will they use on company PCs? Linux? I am willing to bet that would case a bunch of compatibility problems somewhere along the line when doing business with companies from other countries. Considering how dependent this country is on exporting goods, thats a pretty major fucking issue.

On top of that it just sucks for xbox users. If their xbox breaks, they have to order one from Austria or something. Mmmmh.

(This whole thing comes, by the way, during a span of nation wide ad campaigns encouraging employees to rat out there former workplace if they used pirated software. As always, copyright holders and anti-piracy crusaders are spot on with their timing.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Fappy:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Um... What?

I mean, what?

How...

Why...

Dafuq...

Like, seriously? Alright, lets get this shit started.

>consolololol

No, seriously though. What the actual fuck. Curious to see if this is for real.

Yeah you live in Germany don't you. I assume you can still get Widows 7 updates and everything through normal channels right?

To be perfectly honest I dont really give a toss. I bought Windows 7 and trust me, I will get my updates one way or another. Not going to let some copyright lawsuit get between me and the updates I paid for (kinda).

Its just other people I am worried about. Businesses for example. If they cant buy Windows anymore, what operating system will they use on company PCs? Linux? I am willing to bet that would case a bunch of compatibility problems somewhere along the line when doing business with companies from other countries. Considering how dependent this country is on exporting goods, thats a pretty major fucking issue.

On top of that it just sucks for xbox users. If their xbox breaks, they have to order one from Austria or something. Mmmmh.

(This whole thing comes, by the way, during a span of nation wide ad campaigns encouraging employees to rat out there former workplace if they used pirated software. As always, copyright holders and anti-piracy crusaders are spot on with their timing.

Yeah Germany's larger businesses are going to be hit hard by this. Software licencing is a huge expense for companies, and I can only imagine importing Windows would add to the costs. I highly doubt most of them would be willing to put forth the capital to convert everything to Linux. That's just not realistic.

I'm completely confused as to how the Xbox got banned from country.

Fappy:
Yeah Germany's larger businesses are going to be hit hard by this. Software licencing is a huge expense for companies, and I can only imagine importing Windows would add to the costs. I highly doubt most of them would be willing to put forth the capital to convert everything to Linux. That's just not realistic.

This whole thing is a little confusing to me to be honest.

Going to wait for a good German news website to run an article on this. Should explain exactly whats going on and what the consequences will be in detail.

Terminate421:
I'm completely confused as to how the Xbox got banned from country.

Also as to how the Windows 7 got banned from country. Seriously, WTF?

Well, then I'd rather write down my last 4 Windows 7 keys that I got from my university and download the installer.

That's it, Motorola, choke the industry of an entire country because you want money. Would the world miss Motorola if it disappeared? I wouldn't.

Dexter111:

Zhukov:
Ooooo-kay.

You still didn't answer the question. Why would you be overjoyed, delighted or filled with schadenfreude?

Microsoft/Xbox Live was literally the first to charge for "Downloadable Content" in 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downloadable_content#On_consoles and they also propagated the DLC model by anchoring it in their Xbox Live Marketplace come Xbox 360.

They are known for their strict policy towards Updates, each developer has one "free" Content Update, but every additional one is forcibly supposed to be priced as "DLC" since they want to "create value", they got into disputes with Valve over that more than once.
Same for EPIC Games, they were pissed too at first, but nowadays they embraced the model and are even defending "Day One DLC".

They are the first to charge people per month to play Online outside of MMOs, they also tried that on PC with Games for Windows Live, but PC gamers literally told them to fuck off and take their closed-off proprietary platform with them.

They take ~10$ on top of every console game sale as licensing costs for their platform, they have licensing fees for multiple disc titles per disc too.

They banished most indie games to XBLIG with near to no promotion, most games require a publishing deal to be able to appear on XBLA (either self-published by Microsoft like most new Double Fine games... for instance "Trenched", which they have a problem porting to PC even though they want to since Microsoft was publisher or Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet etc. or they need to find third party publishers like Bastion did with Warner Bros. or Stacking/Costume Quest with THQ) :
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/07/xblig-feature.ars
http://www.lazygamer.net/xbox-360/xbox-live-arcade-not-profitable/

They even wanted to cut Indie devs royalties to half of what it was at one point, but backed down after another overwhelming "fuck you" from just about everyone: http://kotaku.com/359668/microsoft-cuts-indie-royalties-in-half

This were the results of Indie developers being asked which platform is best to work with:
http://nightmaremode.net/2011/10/steam-beats-xblapsn-as-easiest-platform-to-develop-indie-games-on-12073/

image

We also long found out that Microsoft is charging developers 40.000$ for every Patch/Update, while on other platforms like Steam it's well... free: http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2012/02/16/microsofts-40000-per-xbox-patch-explains-why-updates-are-slow-to-roll-out/

They had a 55% failure rate on their consoles: http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/24/microsoft-responds-to-xbox-360-54-2-percent-failure-rate-report/ and are manufacturing them in China at a place where the workers are threatening with Mass Suicide: http://kotaku.com/5874706/report-mass-suicide-threats-at-xbox-360-plant

They force exclusivity of titles on their platforms and even "refuse sloppy seconds" to punish developers releasing their games on other platforms:
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2011/08/24/microsoft-not-interested-in-publishing-downloadable-games-that-were-on-psn-first-microsoft-says-they-wont-publish-games-on-xbox-live-arcade-if-they-were-on-psn-first-games-that-get-more-content-on/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-24-why-microsoft-wont-publish-psn-firsts

Oh yeah, and when they started with their console product cycle instead of doing their own thing/having their own lineup like Nintendo and SONY they purely fished in the PC side for developers, buying or paying off several of them like Bungie, EPIC Games or Remedy to produce Exclusive titles for them. They're also a major force in the homogenization and dumbification/decline of gaming altogether and those are just a few things.

Anything coming for them like a typhoon or a flood or something would just be considered fair judgement by force majeure :P

Ultimately, all of your (very valid) complaints about microsoft boil down to this: IP law is broken and effectively evil. The fact that it's being used against them doesn't change the inherent wrongness of it being used in this way.

By the way, in case anyone didn't believe the link in the OP, the BBC has confirmed it: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17924190

Just want to point out two things:

1) Motorola can't do anything until the Seattle judge lifts the restraining order

2) The ban won't even go into effect until Microsoft's appeals are done.

So chill for a bit and see where this goes.

Um, surely even if Motorola are in the right it would only be fair to ban products that directly breached the patent, not outlaw all of Microsoft from Germany? The fuck is wrong with that government?!

NinjaDeathSlap:
Um, surely even if Motorola are in the right it would only be fair to ban products that directly breached the patent, not outlaw all of Microsoft from Germany? The fuck is wrong with that government?!

That's what's happening.

Also, people asked Why they didn't sue when the products first come out. The answer is it can take a lot of time, and reverse engineering, to figure out if any patents actually have been infringed.

I also can't help but see a lot of anger at the patent system, based on very flimsy claims. OP calls this "one of the most retarded patent cases to date", without explaining why.

I find it ironic that a forum where the slightest hint of copyright infringement is met with scorn, yet suddenly a major patent case pops up that could be contrary to Microsoft's interests and suddenly we're all joining the Pirate party or something.

Oh nice logic OP, you don't like Microsoft for coming up with downloadable content and some of their policies so you're glad that their sales are being outlawed in a country. Very lovely, very lovely. Also, I don't like Half Life, I think that it's over rated and it's piss poor development time is nothing short of pathetic, I hope that sales of all Valve games are banned in this country. I mean, it's not like being happy over something like that is really selfish and stupid.

wow thats pretty harsh mind you I cant exactly sympathise with Microsoft they are not my favourite company.

It will be interesting to see what happens if this is enforced though what platform will replace windows? will it be linux or will a new platform arise and will they still bother localising 360 games in german?

In a way I hope it is enforced just to stick a huge middle finger up to microsoft. I feel sorry for the german people though their choice is being restricted by this.

dimensional:

It will be interesting to see what happens if this is enforced though what platform will replace windows? will it be linux or will a new platform arise and will they still bother localising 360 games in german?

Naw, Microsoft would remove the parts that infringe the patent and sell the new version.

It's only two patents affecting a video codec. Microsoft could just switch format and pretty much do business as usual.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened in Germany. One of the problems is that German courts, I think, tend not to consider the validity of patents before determining if they've been breached. All one side has to do is prove that the other party either knowingly or unknowingly, directly or indirectly violated its intellectual property - regardless of whether the patent in question is lawful or invalid - and the court swings the banhammer.

If the defending party wants to call into question the validity of the patents themselves, they must do so in separate proceedings. This system could presumably work in a world where companies could be trusted to show some modicum of discretion with respect to their desire to destroy their corporate rivals at any cost.

Unfortunately, because of the size of the German market and the ease with which megacorps can exploit its patent laws, this makes it one of the most easily abused systems in the world - even worse than the U.S.

To be honest I was pretty surprised to find that Motorola still exists, or at least exists to the extent that they can fuck Microsoft and an entire country of users in the ass.

I feel sorry for those in Germany who won't be able to use most Microsoft products, but please be assured that this will be one step towards bringing Microsoft out of the limelight.

Zappanale:

NinjaDeathSlap:
Um, surely even if Motorola are in the right it would only be fair to ban products that directly breached the patent, not outlaw all of Microsoft from Germany? The fuck is wrong with that government?!

That's what's happening.

Also, people asked Why they didn't sue when the products first come out. The answer is it can take a lot of time, and reverse engineering, to figure out if any patents actually have been infringed.

I also can't help but see a lot of anger at the patent system, based on very flimsy claims. OP calls this "one of the most retarded patent cases to date", without explaining why.

I find it ironic that a forum where the slightest hint of copyright infringement is met with scorn, yet suddenly a major patent case pops up that could be contrary to Microsoft's interests and suddenly we're all joining the Pirate party or something.

The ones you see in here complaining about patents are the same minority you see in other threads arguing against the way copyright currently works. It's consistent.

I'm happy to be a pc gamer.
Consoles are made to fuck you over.

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