Black Panther Movie Discussion (spoilers)

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Hawki:

However miniscule, even in the MCU, there is some sub-text in Iron Man 3, Civil War, and Ragnarok (though that would be sub-sub text). Not particuarly deep or insightful sub-text, but it's there.

That said, I've noticed two lines of thought popping up with Black Panther on opposite ends. One is a claim that Wakanda is what Africa would be like if Europe never colonized the continent. The other is that Wakanda, as an ethnically hemogenous society, should be a basis for our own societies, and that it's through lack of immigration/multiculturalism that it's able to get where it is.

Far as I can tell these are both erroneous conclusions, because casting everything else aside, isn't Wakanda as advanced as it is purely because of vibranium? It's not the MCU's most powerful nation because of the above, it's the most advanced because the right material happened to land there in an asteroid.

As far as there being subtext in, well, any previous Marvel movies, I'll have to take your word for it. I haven't bothered with any of them, for the very same reason I won't bother with Black Panther - I read Marvel Comics from my early teens to my mid-twenties, at which point I was pretty much fed up with the whole concept of superheroes... or, at least, with the way the Big Two seem to be willing to engage with it.

What I meant by my previous post, though, was that I think both of those are about equally silly. It's a Hollywood blockbuster - a superhero flick. It may very well be a good one; I wouldn't really know. But to hear some people talk of it, paying the single largest entertainment corporation in existence for the privilege of watching a million-dollar production is, somehow, making an important political statement and contributing to the advancement of civil rights, which, however less objectionable, doesn't strike me as particularly more reasonable than Richard Spencer's projections of his specific political views onto it.

Or, to put it more succinctly...

Silentpony:

People need to remember the magic space rocks. That's what makes Wakanda work, not analogies to modern politics.

...this. All of it.

Ogoid:
Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

Yeah I get your point there, but I don't think it's fair to hold something up as an art form and then say it's just a dumb piece of entertainment when it flubs the landing. I think the film had a message, it was actually pretty political, but there were quite a few points where it absolutely 100% did not stick the landing on that and that's one of those points.

The other bit that just made me blink a bit was the monkey hooting bit, I honestly can not believe that scene made it past a test audience.

Star Wars, with some Lord of the Rings (literally had a scene with Bilbo and Gollum facing off), and a touch of James Bond too.

I have no complaints to make, atleast about the movie itself. I do however, detest the idea of being loyal to a throne though, and very much appreciate the spy's views.

Ok, I guess one complaint is how few names I recall of the characters. I know T'Challa, Klau(w), Killmonger, mostly cause I am familiar with Marvel comics. I dont know the 'General's' name, I dont know the spy's name, nor do I know Get Out's name.

Also wasnt expecting the other chief to be so welcoming, since Im pretty sure he is supposed to be a regular Black Panther villain.

See, the movie was saying that isolationism is bad, that not helping people is bad, but also being conquerors is bad. Do people not realize that T'Challa and the spy girl are the good guys there?

The movie is quite literally saying Wakanda should use its advanced technology to help everyone, not hide away, nor conquer everyone.

I think Killmonger was not as complex as I had lead to believe, but I think he got his motivations and point across. Perhaps he was intentionally a bit simple so the audience can see the holes in his method, noble as his intentions may be. Giving the oppressed the means to hold the ruling class to account sounds like a good idea, but Killmonger is so immersed in a culture of violence that he cannot see any other way than violent revolution, regardless of the very real pitfalls that path presents.

Overall I thought it was a good movie, I had a good time with it.

Silentpony:

Ogoid:

Silentpony:

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

Again, I hate coming to that bastard's defense, but he's not the first person to find a political slant in a popular movie

There are definately some problematic messages that stem from the original source material that the writers probably didn't consider at the time. Technological advancement tended to come from exchange of ideas between groups of people, a process typically driven by trade and travel. It's completely unrealistic for an isolated state like Wakanda to be able to advance technologically at the rate it did as an isolated, heavily protectionistic ethnostate, especially since their espionage wouldn't be truly effective until they achieved long-ranged telecomunications. The idea that this state has become perfect by isolating itself is deffinately problematic. However the movie itself does try to communicate a different message, even if those source material related problems were always going to complicate it. Killmonger and his father turn against Wakanda because they aren't doing enough to change the world for the betteer when they have the resources and ability to do so, and T'challa eventually agrees that Wakanda needs to open up and try to help the rest of the world, with great powers comes great responsibility, and all that. It does inadvertantly idealize isolationism and the ethnostate, but it doesn't actively attempt to endorse it. They should probably have thought through the origin story a bit better, but the movie is not activvely trying to say that all ethnic groups should live in different isolated states

CyanCat47:

Silentpony:

Ogoid:

Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

Again, I hate coming to that bastard's defense, but he's not the first person to find a political slant in a popular movie

There are definately some problematic messages that stem from the original source material that the writers probably didn't consider at the time. Technological advancement tended to come from exchange of ideas between groups of people, a process typically driven by trade and travel. It's completely unrealistic for an isolated state like Wakanda to be able to advance technologically at the rate it did as an isolated, heavily protectionistic ethnostate, especially since their espionage wouldn't be truly effective until they achieved long-ranged telecomunications. The idea that this state has become perfect by isolating itself is deffinately problematic. However the movie itself does try to communicate a different message, even if those source material related problems were always going to complicate it. Killmonger and his father turn against Wakanda because they aren't doing enough to change the world for the betteer when they have the resources and ability to do so, and T'challa eventually agrees that Wakanda needs to open up and try to help the rest of the world, with great powers comes great responsibility, and all that. It does inadvertantly idealize isolationism and the ethnostate, but it doesn't actively attempt to endorse it. They should probably have thought through the origin story a bit better, but the movie is not activvely trying to say that all ethnic groups should live in different isolated states

I don't think the message is that they became perfect because they were isolationists. They simply became self sufficient. And now only that, they honored all people of all tribes and gave them fair say in how they ruled their country. That's where the perfection came from.

But for the reason they became isolationist... I believe they thought about it and addressed it perfectly.

With the one throw away dialogue of the Usurper while looking at a spear. How that one little thing had enough force to decimate a tank.

How the material was so powerful and rare that Captain America's shield is estimated at [uirl=https://www.cnet.com/news/guess-the-outrageous-price-of-captain-americas-shield/]54 Million[/url] dollars. That with a mountain of the stuff for all the nations in the world to salivate over and decide that it's their destiny to have that, and not some "poor" African Country.

I'm surprised they never did a "What If" story about how would the world would have looked if it fell in Nazi Germany and how unbelievably unbeatable the Nazis would have become.

The Meteor falling into Wakanda is about as a best scenario situation as Kal-El being found by the Kents, given all of human history as a guide. They were not corrupted, but tried to harness the gift for good. Earth 616 is very lucky in that regard.

I personally don't think what they are doing is the right choice. Nuclear Weapons are dangerous. Nukes, like guns, are something I wish we could just get rid of. But now with the knowledge of their functions and how to make them, they are a necessary evil to keep others with the same ambitions at bay. We freak out over school shootings, and rightfully so. What if the Active Shooter had an arm cannon like Klaw?

Even with positivity and light in the minds of the Wakandians, there are people who just see money to be made and power to be had. While the Meteorite blessed them, the Wakandians were wise enough to realize it was their curse to protect it from the people who would misuse it. Opening their borders, sharing their knowledge... it will all be on their heads.

Saw the movie the past weekend. It was ok. Entertaining while it lasted, but nothing really memorable. Was kind of fun to see a movie where Andy Serkis was actually there in the flesh. Also, Forest Whitacker died. Again. He seems to die in every movie I've seen him in. Is he ... is he basically the black Sean Bean?

Chimpzy:
Is he ... is he basically the black Sean Bean?

You know....i never considered it but that's exactly what he is

undeadsuitor:

Chimpzy:
Is he ... is he basically the black Sean Bean?

You know....i never considered it but that's exactly what he is

He didn't die in Phone Booth:

Samtemdo8:

undeadsuitor:

Chimpzy:
Is he ... is he basically the black Sean Bean?

You know....i never considered it but that's exactly what he is

He didn't die in Phone Booth:

Sean bean has also survived movies, memes aren't literal, thank you for your contribution

undeadsuitor:

Samtemdo8:

undeadsuitor:

You know....i never considered it but that's exactly what he is

He didn't die in Phone Booth:

Sean bean has also survived movies, memes aren't literal, thank you for your contribution

And I highly recommend Phone Booth, very good thriller.

Samtemdo8:

undeadsuitor:

Samtemdo8:

He didn't die in Phone Booth:

Sean bean has also survived movies, memes aren't literal, thank you for your contribution

And I highly recommend Phone Booth, very good thriller.

It would be even better if it didn't take place in a phone booth though.

Johnny Novgorod:

Samtemdo8:

undeadsuitor:

Sean bean has also survived movies, memes aren't literal, thank you for your contribution

And I highly recommend Phone Booth, very good thriller.

It would be even better if it didn't take place in a phone booth though.

That's too easy, you should have said if there was no Sniper and the guy went about his merry day and ended there.

But lets not derail this thread please.

Samtemdo8:

Johnny Novgorod:

Samtemdo8:

And I highly recommend Phone Booth, very good thriller.

It would be even better if it didn't take place in a phone booth though.

That's too easy, you should have said if there was no Sniper and the guy went about his merry day and ended there.

But lets not derail this thread please.

Alien but the cat's actually the killer.

My one big complaint would have to be this:
Seriously, the only outdoor scenes you could film on location were in South Korea? Yet most of the movie takes place in Wakanda, which is 100% percent CGI. I get that actually filming on location in a fictional country is impossible, but there's like a bazillion African countries you can mix and match outdoor scenery from. NONE of the outdoor scenes in Wakanda looked real at all. All the dialogue filled outdoor scenes had super blurred out backgrounds, while the combat scenes were fought with terrible CGI grass. The big background set pieces like the tech cave or whatever could've just been CGIed into the background of some actual outdoor shot scenes. Instead of doing everything in green screen, and then applying terribly fake looking backgrounds into close ups of characters.

This is especially bad when the "world's finest sunset lies in Wakanda", and then we get the money shot at near the end of the movie, and the sunset looks worse than Crysis from 2007.

I give it a solid B+

Pros:

- Fantastic acting
- Thematically coherent and weighty
- Interesting and dramatic second act
- Great villain

Cons:

- Dated CG
- Not enough Wakanda sets or sets in general (too much green screen)
- Act 3 was too familiar for a movie that was trying to say something unique

I feel like the movie would have reached Dark Knight/Logan levels of art if it weren't for Disney's logo on it. The violence felt muted, and the plight of the villain had to be inferred from real world knowledge of the impoverished black experience. Getting an intimate look into his life would have had a lot more impact, but Disney would never actually go that dark/real with their movies. It had a great message, but I feel like they fumbled in their delivery.

Still really liked the movie though.

I saw it last night.

Over-all, I thought it was a good movie, and worth watching in a theater.

I agree with the reviewers who have said that the women steal the show- by and large, the general, inventor, love interest and mother steal the scenes they're in. (Yes, they have names. No, I'm not going to look them up right now.)

The action was enjoyable, and I liked some of the ideas about how they used technology, especially the kinetic energy collecting powers of the Black Panther suit.

Prformances were solid throughout.

That said, the lead is pretty, um, dull. I don't think the actor who plays Black Panther is bad; I just don't think he's given all that much to do to stretch the character. Reviewers seemed to think that the whole hero-as-leader thing was really impressive and new; I felt like he could more or less be summed up as "noble guy with good intentions and daddy issues". Maybe in a few more movies I'll feel like he's gained some depth.

Two other issues require spoiler tags. Nothing movie-breaking, exactly, just kind of "Huh..." moments.

Callate:

Callate:
I saw it last night.

Over-all, I thought it was a good movie, and worth watching in a theater.

I agree with the reviewers who have said that the women steal the show- by and large, the general, inventor, love interest and mother steal the scenes they're in. (Yes, they have names. No, I'm not going to look them up right now.)

The action was enjoyable, and I liked some of the ideas about how they used technology, especially the kinetic energy collecting powers of the Black Panther suit.

Prformances were solid throughout.

That said, the lead is pretty, um, dull. I don't think the actor who plays Black Panther is bad; I just don't think he's given all that much to do to stretch the character. Reviewers seemed to think that the whole hero-as-leader thing was really impressive and new; I felt like he could more or less be summed up as "noble guy with good intentions and daddy issues". Maybe in a few more movies I'll feel like he's gained some depth.

Two other issues require spoiler tags. Nothing movie-breaking, exactly, just kind of "Huh..." moments.

Alot of vegetarians dont count fish as meat. Its cheating, but its common enough.

Why should the law of the land matter when it serves evil people? Thats always my issue with anything that relies too heavily on following 'traditions'. I mean, as much as I loved the General lady, "I am loyal to the throne" makes her a shitty person. The throne is a pile of stones, who sits in it is what is important.

Silentpony:

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

That's only because Spencer's an idiot.

Wakanda is/was very isolationist, but the very fact that they've got separate tribes to begin with means they aren't an ethno-state, especially not the same way as Spencer would describe them.

To put it another way, if magic space rocks landed in Brussels and Belgium locked down its borders to everyone going both ways, would Belgium be an ethno-state? Would it be an etho-state if it stayed that way for 500 years?

Saelune:
Why should the law of the land matter when it serves evil people? Thats always my issue with anything that relies too heavily on following 'traditions'. I mean, as much as I loved the General lady, "I am loyal to the throne" makes her a shitty person. The throne is a pile of stones, who sits in it is what is important.

It matters because "I've decided the law doesn't apply to you because you're an evil person" is as much as saying that there is no law at all. Or at least that the law is not a predictable and stable code but wildly subject to the whims of its interpreter and executor.

As I say, you can certainly decide that trial by combat- even largely ritual trial by combat, where all who might have a right to pose a challenge are expected to proclaim that they withhold their right and agree to back the king- is an antiquated law that's incongruous with a modern society and needs to be set aside. But the time to do that is between rituals and with consultation, not in the heat of the moment when it's convenient to pretend the law doesn't exist.

Doing so risks a much longer unrest, because it puts into question the entire royal line- all those people who were crowned with the understanding that their trial by combat was an appropriate way to decide they should rule. If that's up for question, why shouldn't leadership be given to someone else entirely?

...Which may, again, be giving too much thought to a movie in the Marvel universe in which good and evil and right and wrong seem to largely be hard-and-fast, tangible things. But if a movie is going to try to broach questions of the responsibilities of a leader or a nation, it would be nice if they wouldn't try to let such things slide.

Callate:

As I say, you can certainly decide that trial by combat- even largely ritual trial by combat, where all who might have a right to pose a challenge are expected to proclaim that they withhold their right and agree to back the king- is an antiquated law that's incongruous with a modern society and needs to be set aside. But the time to do that is between rituals and with consultation, not in the heat of the moment when it's convenient to pretend the law doesn't exist.

What got me was that there seemed to be no mechanism for deposing a mad or otherwise unpopular king. You have to figure in the millennia of Wakandan royalty that someone was nominated ruler who was profoundly unsuited to the job for one reason or another that didn't become apparent until later, but when Killmonger was put in charge and immediately started trying to launch a war against the world with no one except that one guy really backing him up none of the other tribal chiefs seemed to have any mechanism, no matter how informal, of deposing him. You'd think a system of shared rulership between four tribes where the monarch headed a tribal council would have some equivalent of a vote of no confidence.

It's good! Short version is that it has a super charismatic cast, a nice premise, and a villain you actually can give a shit about - all of which is quite novel for a marvel movie. It does however lack much in the way of a story and stakes, being character driven and based around a family squabble. Also the CGI is weak. It is something Better than just the usual Marvel decent-but-disposable story.

altnameJag:

Silentpony:

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

That's only because Spencer's an idiot.

Wakanda is/was very isolationist, but the very fact that they've got separate tribes to begin with means they aren't an ethno-state, especially not the same way as Spencer would describe them.

To put it another way, if magic space rocks landed in Brussels and Belgium locked down its borders to everyone going both ways, would Belgium be an ethno-state? Would it be an etho-state if it stayed that way for 500 years?

Well no, actually Wakanda is an ethno-state:

A political unit that is populated by and run in the interest of an ethnic group.

And ethnic-group is defined as:
A group of people who identify with one another, especially on the basis of national, cultural, or religious grounds.

So the fact they're divided into tribes is meaningless, because they still all identify as Wakanda, worship the Wakanda religion and practice its culture,

EscapistAccount:

Callate:

As I say, you can certainly decide that trial by combat- even largely ritual trial by combat, where all who might have a right to pose a challenge are expected to proclaim that they withhold their right and agree to back the king- is an antiquated law that's incongruous with a modern society and needs to be set aside. But the time to do that is between rituals and with consultation, not in the heat of the moment when it's convenient to pretend the law doesn't exist.

What got me was that there seemed to be no mechanism for deposing a mad or otherwise unpopular king. You have to figure in the millennia of Wakandan royalty that someone was nominated ruler who was profoundly unsuited to the job for one reason or another that didn't become apparent until later, but when Killmonger was put in charge and immediately started trying to launch a war against the world with no one except that one guy really backing him up none of the other tribal chiefs seemed to have any mechanism, no matter how informal, of deposing him. You'd think a system of shared rulership between four tribes where the monarch headed a tribal council would have some equivalent of a vote of no confidence.

Killmonger used a stupid tradition to gain power, then immediately started breaking traditions. Why should the law of the land protect someone who breaks it himself?

Plus ever heard of every revolution ever? How about the US Revolution? That was people saying the current 'law of the land' is stupid, then they made a new one.

When the law is counter-intuitive, oppressive, and bad, obeying it is stupid.

Saw it last night. Overall, I liked it, but not as much as I could've. My complaints are mostly either about stylistic choices or quibbles about the plot.

bastardofmelbourne:
SNIP

Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

I think that, for T'Challa, it was a matter of honour. He had inherited his father's mess, it was his duty to clean it up. We must also remember that T'Challa had only just learned the truth himself, and was still processing the implications of the existence of Prince N'Jadaka. His initial reaction was to try and keep up his father's charade, and when it was revealed who Warmonger was he decided to take it upon to himself to fix the problem. The big question is if it is that simple to discredit Warmonger, why did T'Chaka hide this fact? I don't think it would have been that simple, indeed the fact that T'Chaka hid this incident for so long may have undercut T'Challa's authority.

We also have to take into account that Wakanda is big on tradition. The Jabari's problem with T'Challa as the Black Panther was that he had put Shuri in charge of the science division. They considered her too young and doing untradtional things with vibranium. Her appointment went against tradition. As such, N'Jadaka would have certain rights and privileges he would be entitled to as a Wakandan Prince, and as we've seen of Okoye, she would not have simply killed him on the spot.

Now I agree that Warmonger's plan was too simple. I think that's the point. He sees a problem, and he has a solution to fix it. To him, it is simple. But he's either unaware of or believes very hard in the solidarity of the oppressed and is ignoring the very real pitfalls of his plan. Now, would have I liked something a bit more complex and nuanced? For sure, but we've only got 2 hours to tell the story and the audience is supposed to be able to poke holes in the plan.

Now that brings me to the technicality. It is a technicality, but since T'Challa isn't dead and hasn't submitted the fight is technically unfinished. What this allows is for Okoye and W'Kabi to make their choices. Okoye is a traditionalist at heart, she serves the throne regardless who sits on it. But as soon as Warmonger throws tradition out the window and breaks the rules of the challenge, that gives her the impetus to rebel against this king she clearly despises. For W'kabi, T'Challa made him a personal promise, to bring Klaue to justice. When T'Challa fails, W'Kabi feels that promise broken and sees just more of the same of what T'Chaka did in regard to Klaue. He has decided that Klaue will remain free under T'Challa, as he did under T'Chaka and justice will not be served for his family. Then comes Warmonger. Warmonger gets things done, Warmonger will Make Wakanda Great Again (see what I did there ;)). At the pivotal point of the third act, W'Kabi has to choose: T'Challa, who he sees as a dithering promise breaker just like his father, or Warmonger, who brought his family's killer to justice. I don't think W'Kabi was really thinking about the implications of what Warmonger was doing, he just saw a leader that did right by him.

now, I do have a problem in that we don't see the aftermath of an open rebellion by one of the tribes. W'Kabi's relationship with T'Challa and Okoye is certainly in tatters and the Border Tribe's honour is right down the toilet, but what next? I would have liked to know how that issue was going to be resolved.

I also am unsure of what made the Jabari come to Black Panther's aid. Last I saw, that was a flat-out no. Did I miss something, or is there a going to be a deleted scene where M'Baku is convinced to come down and fight?

Silentpony:
Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

When I saw Killmonger burn the flower garden, I was just like "...what?"

I mean, they try to explain it later as Killmonger subconsciously or consciously following CIA regime destabilisation tactics, but it makes no sense given Killmonger's stated goals. He wants to go to war with the world; I was expecting him to order the heart-shaped herb to be administered to a bunch of bodyguards, so that he could have a whole squad of super-soldiers. But no, he just decides to burn it all - which is made double extra dumb because the film has also shown that there's a chemical concoction that can depower a Black Panther, meaning that it would be super handy to have more of the herb on hand in case any of his enemies decides to just shoot him with a dart full of that shit and render him a normal human.

Honestly, I don't think Wakanda could have taken over the world. They could certainly do a ton of damage, what with the bulletproof catsuits and space guns that they're oddly averse to using, but I really just think they don't have enough people to conquer the world.

Plus, the existence of sonic stabilisers that can negate vibranium's indestructibility kind of opens up a huge hole in their military technology. It would be like there was a device that could make nuclear plutonium into non-radioactive lumps of metal, or a device that turned gunpowder into inert sand. I'm surprised that Shuri didn't just go "let me grab on of those and rig it into a gun, then I'll just shoot Bitchmonger with it and you can drop-kick his head off."

bastardofmelbourne:
Snip

One minor nitpick, the ruler of Wakanda IS the Black Panther, not a seperate tribe. So when Killmonger was leading Wakanda, HE was 'officially' The Black Panther. Happens a ton of times in the comics. Had the gorilla chief won, he would have become Black Panther.

Silentpony:

altnameJag:

Silentpony:

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

That's only because Spencer's an idiot.

Wakanda is/was very isolationist, but the very fact that they've got separate tribes to begin with means they aren't an ethno-state, especially not the same way as Spencer would describe them.

To put it another way, if magic space rocks landed in Brussels and Belgium locked down its borders to everyone going both ways, would Belgium be an ethno-state? Would it be an etho-state if it stayed that way for 500 years?

Well no, actually Wakanda is an ethno-state:

A political unit that is populated by and run in the interest of an ethnic group.

And ethnic-group is defined as:
A group of people who identify with one another, especially on the basis of national, cultural, or religious grounds.

So the fact they're divided into tribes is meaningless, because they still all identify as Wakanda, worship the Wakanda religion and practice its culture,

That's wrong though. The gorilla tribe for instance, is totally at odds and lives in isolation from the other four. Nothing is said about their nation's religions, the cultures are visibly distinct, and the only thing unifying the tribes is that they generally accept the autocratic authority of Black Panther and live within Wakanda's borders... which is what multicultural ethnic groups do in every other country with their respective governments.

bastardofmelbourne:

Silentpony:
Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

When I saw Killmonger burn the flower garden, I was just like "...what?"

I mean, they try to explain it later as Killmonger subconsciously or consciously following CIA regime destabilisation tactics, but it makes no sense given Killmonger's stated goals. He wants to go to war with the world; I was expecting him to order the heart-shaped herb to be administered to a bunch of bodyguards, so that he could have a whole squad of super-soldiers. But no, he just decides to burn it all - which is made double extra dumb because the film has also shown that there's a chemical concoction that can depower a Black Panther, meaning that it would be super handy to have more of the herb on hand in case any of his enemies decides to just shoot him with a dart full of that shit and render him a normal human.

Honestly, I don't think Wakanda could have taken over the world. They could certainly do a ton of damage, what with the bulletproof catsuits and space guns that they're oddly averse to using, but I really just think they don't have enough people to conquer the world.

Plus, the existence of sonic stabilisers that can negate vibranium's indestructibility kind of opens up a huge hole in their military technology. It would be like there was a device that could make nuclear plutonium into non-radioactive lumps of metal, or a device that turned gunpowder into inert sand. I'm surprised that Shuri didn't just go "let me grab on of those and rig it into a gun, then I'll just shoot Bitchmonger with it and you can drop-kick his head off."

Megalomanical psychopaths in charge of countries have a tendency to bite off way more than they can chew. It's kind of one of their hallmarks.

bastardofmelbourne:

Silentpony:
Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

When I saw Killmonger burn the flower garden, I was just like "...what?"

I mean, they try to explain it later as Killmonger subconsciously or consciously following CIA regime destabilisation tactics, but it makes no sense given Killmonger's stated goals. He wants to go to war with the world; I was expecting him to order the heart-shaped herb to be administered to a bunch of bodyguards, so that he could have a whole squad of super-soldiers. But no, he just decides to burn it all - which is made double extra dumb because the film has also shown that there's a chemical concoction that can depower a Black Panther, meaning that it would be super handy to have more of the herb on hand in case any of his enemies decides to just shoot him with a dart full of that shit and render him a normal human.

Honestly, I don't think Wakanda could have taken over the world. They could certainly do a ton of damage, what with the bulletproof catsuits and space guns that they're oddly averse to using, but I really just think they don't have enough people to conquer the world.

Plus, the existence of sonic stabilisers that can negate vibranium's indestructibility kind of opens up a huge hole in their military technology. It would be like there was a device that could make nuclear plutonium into non-radioactive lumps of metal, or a device that turned gunpowder into inert sand. I'm surprised that Shuri didn't just go "let me grab on of those and rig it into a gun, then I'll just shoot Bitchmonger with it and you can drop-kick his head off."

I took the flower burning as him just taking a basic precaution to stop an uprising against him. He knows he's not winning any popularity contests, and it isn't a good idea to have a giant stockpile of unguarded superhero juice lying around.

You have hit on a major problem I had with the movie though, in that its never really clear how much of a threat an imperialist Wakanda is. We are shown some spears that could apparently take out a tank, but the villain's main plot consists of sending crates of these out to his spy network around the world, so that they can... stab some tanks? We also don't see how many spies there are; I got the impression that there can't be a lot of them, even if they are stationed in "every nation" around the globe. They make a big deal of having to stop these weapons getting out of the country, but it doesn't seem that big a deal if they fail to do that, as Killmongor would still have to laboriously contact each of the spies to give them their attack orders.

maninahat:

That's wrong though. The gorilla tribe for instance, is totally at odds and lives in isolation from the other four. Nothing is said about their nation's religions, the cultures are visibly distinct, and the only thing unifying the tribes is that they generally accept the autocratic authority of Black Panther and live within Wakanda's borders... which is what multicultural ethnic groups do in every other country with their respective governments.

How were the cultures distinct at all? Yeah they wore different costumes, but they spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies and bowed to the same ruler.
Those are pretty huge similarities to be claiming don't constitute the same culture, when green dress vs blue dress obviously means different cultures.

Also even the Gorilla people spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies, and if the fact they wanted the thrown for themselves is anything to go by, we're still indirectly ruled by the King. Yeah Black Panther was the first king to be in the Gorilla land in a few hundred years, but if the gorilla people never cared about the king, Wakanda or the throne in the first place, why try to take it all over?
And if they didn't respect the traditions of the other tribes, why use traditional trial-by-combat? Why be okay with Killmonger being king because he won fair and square if they don't care about traditions?

Also they're all African and all Wakandan. So they all have the same traditions, language, culture, Government, are all from the same Continent and nation, and allow no one from other nations or continents inside their borders.

How is it NOT an ethno-state?!

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