But what gets under my skin is the girls whose actual preference is fun with a fit, muscle- [quote="Dusty Fred" post="18.364603.14261060"]My point? The difficulty for a girl in finding a nice guy (in SOME, let me be clear, not ALL cases)may be because the nice guy who would have done anything for her has been so crushed inside by watching her flirt and court and associate with shallow Adonis types that he no longer has the self-worth or confidence to greet the day with an open heart anymore.
Ah. Yes. I did sound like him, didn't I? I like to think I'm not that bad, but nonetheless it was uncomfortably familiar.
Probably my post lacked a little finesse, as I wrote it in a hurry. And like I said, I was aiming more to describe a viewpoint than make a forceful argument.
Well, it's just that I'm not sure you can ask women to give chances. I might be annoyed by how we're 'wasting' 1/3 of our days by sleeping, but there's not much I can do about that. It's our nature. Just focus on spending that 2/3 better. I don't think it works on attraction either. More fruitful to focus on yourself than try to change how attraction works.
Why not expect confidence if you have the luxury to do so? Time is our most precious possession. I can understand not wanting to give that up for possibly no real gain. And then, not every girl has the luxury to do so. For every boy struggling with this, there is a girl struggling with it just as much. But usually the attention of the boys is on the 'hot chicks'.
I can agree with your first paragraph, that all makes sense, as well as your comment about how girls experience these things just as much. What I'm confused about is why you're saying girls have "the luxury to expect confidence"?
Yeah I intended to say some girls have this luxury. The popular ones. These are the ones the Nice Guy will see going out with those McSexys. And they have that luxury. I'm very sure there are a lot of other girls that do not expect confidence.
I dunno, the friend zone is pretty lame, but its easy-ish to get over. It kinda hurts in the begining when you like someone and they tell you they don't feel the same way, but it is sometimes better to just be friends. As for the nice guy thing... I think real nice guys should be able to recognise that as well.
Dusty Fred: My point? The difficulty for a girl in finding a nice guy (in SOME, let me be clear, not ALL cases)may be because the nice guy who would have done anything for her has been so crushed inside by watching her flirt and court and associate with shallow Adonis types that he no longer has the self-worth or confidence to greet the day with an open heart anymore.
museofdoom: Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?
I am a 21 year old male.
First, I don't have a problem with the "friend zone" unless the female was leading me on and then pulls a "friend zone". That is when I become angry.
Second, I am a nice guy that wants a well-rounded relationship. I can tell you that people like me don't get laid that way the vast majority of the time. In every instance I have been such a good friend that the female wants to keep me as a friend and not have to treat me as a boyfriend. As the old saying goes, "always the bridesmaid never the bride". I'm just too good a friend.
It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.
This relationship advice brought to you by: Because.... well, I am.
museofdoom: Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.
So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.
Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?
Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a bitch. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.
Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0
Only one thing I have to say here, hands up all those not surprised that a woman compared something to shoe shopping.
Could you be any more predicatable and stereo-typical. Other than that you didn't make a bad point.
some guys just don't know how to flirt, and any guide you find basicly tells you to trick her in one way or another, which I have serious problems with.
also, just walking up to a girl and spouting "wanna go out with me?" is kinda creepy as well.
personally, I'd like to get to know her for a bit before I try anything; hobbies, dreams, quirks, things beyond just a name and a face.
Sarge034: It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.
If I'm having dinner and I'm missing a knife, I'll complain I want a knife. But I want a knife to go with my dinner. There's no point in getting just a knife.
Those girls probably prefer a knifeless dinner over a dinnerless knife.
Sarge034: It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.
If I'm having dinner and I'm missing a knife, I'll complain I want a knife. But I want a knife to go with my dinner. There's no point in getting just a knife.
Those girls probably prefer a knifeless dinner over a dinnerless knife.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. I was saying that "It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit."
To use your analogy, the woman has a knife to the right of her plate but instead chooses to complain about not having a knife and uses the spoon to try to cut her food.
If you are going to respond actually say something instead of just leaving an ambiguous analogy.
Michael Logan: The term friendzone is just to make people who get rejected feel good about themself. Kind of like how ugly people say that beauty comes from within.
You couldn't be further off base.
One is a loose term about how people either try to jump from being friends to lovers, or find themselves friends with the girl they wanted to date. This has no positive associations. Why would this be a term created to make people feel good about themselves? Nobody thinks this is a good thing.
The second is a rejection of how media's sold you on what's beautiful and what isn't. Go back a few years and the trait people wanted in women were good child-bearing hips.
Sarge034: It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.
If I'm having dinner and I'm missing a knife, I'll complain I want a knife. But I want a knife to go with my dinner. There's no point in getting just a knife.
Those girls probably prefer a knifeless dinner over a dinnerless knife.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. I was saying that "It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit."
To use your analogy, the woman has a knife to the right of her plate but instead chooses to complain about not having a knife and uses the spoon to try to cut her food.
If you are going to respond actually say something instead of just leaving an ambiguous analogy.
Sorry, what I was trying to say is that shit-treating guys are like a dinner without a knife, whereas nice guys are like a knife without a dinner.
The reason that women STILL go out and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit is likely because those guys have something to offer that nice guys don't. And they rather go for that.
People complain about things all the time. Like airlines. But people still fly. Because they prefer that over not flying.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The "friend zone" is the sweet spot. Any guy who treats this like the end of the line is either weak mentally or lacks confidence. If you are losing a war you always go with intel. You can find out more about a girl here than anywhere else. Really, there's no such thing as a place where girls won't change their mind about you. Well unless you do something really creepy or fucked up. Besides this way you also get to know all of her annoying habits and you can avoid the mess all together. Of the handful of times I have been there, I just learned what they were looking for and I happened to be that really nice guy they hang out with all the time. In the hypothetical situation where they don't eventually see your charm, then they probably aren't worth you time anyways.
tobyornottoby: Sorry, what I was trying to say is that shit-treating guys are like a dinner without a knife, whereas nice guys are like a knife without a dinner.
This still has no meaning to me because it is still an ambiguous analogy.
The reason that women STILL go out and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit is likely because those guys have something to offer that nice guys don't. And they rather go for that.
Yea, they are the steriotypical agressive/overly confident "bad boy". So why bitch and moan that they want something if they really don't? That is what makes me angry.
People complain about things all the time. Like airlines. But people still fly. Because they prefer that over not flying.
Correct, but people don't tend to fly with the airlines that don't offer what they want if others do.
museofdoom: Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.
So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.
Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?
Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a bitch. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.
Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0
I wouldn't call it whiny, just sad.
I like this girl, we have lots of fun together and can talk to each other about anything. I know no other girl like her. I started to develop feelings for her, but when I asked her she simply preferred to be friends.
It made me really sad, but I'm still her friend as its still fun and its better than nothing at all. But I'm still sad that it'll only stay friends.
And no, its not any attempt to get into her pants or anything, I just want to make her smile more and I know I could if only I was given a chance.
(even if no-one reads this, its made me surprisingly better )
It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.
Generally because the friendzone'd `nice guys` are not nice and dependable, but doormats who put women on a pedestal. Me and my boyfriend fight rarely, but if we didn't it would be pissing boring. If he just sat around agreeing with me all day it'd be like dating myself. And that's not what I want. You can get pissed off at people you love it doesn't mean you need to love someone you never fight with.
Also, me and my boyfriend were friends before we went out, I don't think there is a problem of being too much of a friend. The problem comes to when you put yourself so firmly in the friend category your friend can't think of you in a sexual/romantic way at all. Like a brother.
Sarge034: Yea, they are the steriotypical agressive/overly confident "bad boy". So why bitch and moan that they want something if they really don't? That is what makes me angry.
They do want it. They want a bad boy that's nice and dependable to them, some of the time =p
Sarge034: Correct, but people don't tend to fly with the airlines that don't offer what they want if others do.
Thing is, "Nice Guys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being nice and reliable. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer.
"Friend Zone" is just another term for unrequited love and unrequited love is rubbish.
I guess the whole victim mentality arises because someone has to take blame for not being enough like the girl's father or exciting or maybe, you know, a woman and blaming yourself is a sure-fire way to become mentally ill.
Phasmal: Generally because the friendzone'd `nice guys` are not nice and dependable, but doormats who put women on a pedestal. Me and my boyfriend fight rarely, but if we didn't it would be pissing boring. If he just sat around agreeing with me all day it'd be like dating myself. And that's not what I want. You can get pissed off at people you love it doesn't mean you need to love someone you never fight with.
Also, me and my boyfriend were friends before we went out, I don't think there is a problem of being too much of a friend. The problem comes to when you put yourself so firmly in the friend category your friend can't think of you in a sexual/romantic way at all. Like a brother.
Well I do love me some generalizations so let's continue that line of thought. Women are generally indecisive when making decisions and rarely ever know what they want. They will bitch and moan about wanting one thing while they don't even know what they want to begin with.
No? Not feeling it? Neither was I. Try to stay away from generalizations in the future, they tend to make people angry because of the assumptions you make about them.
You do make some interesting assumptions about me that I need to correct. I only consider myself a "nice guy" because I want to be a friend before I'm boyfriend and I do not befriend women simply to achieve sex as my end game. I legitimately want a relationship so I am disqualified from the "bad boy" club. I routinely disagree with my lady friends because I am honest with them. If a woman can't take opposing views from a friend I don't want to date her.
I do have a legitimate question for you. Not even being sarcastic. As I am not a woman I don't know how I would put myself too firmly in the friend category. Am I only supposed to be there for her sometimes? Do I act like a dick for no reason occasionally? Do I intentionally get involved with the stupid drama to make her resent me every once in a while? I don't know because I don't think a friend or a romantic interest should do any of those things.
tobyornottoby: They do want it. They want a bad boy that's nice and dependable to them, some of the time =p
So then why not say "I want a bad boy that will be there sometimes"? It is specifically the fact that they basically lie and say they want one thing and then disregard that criteria to go after the exact opposite of what they said they wanted that makes me mad.
Thing is, "Nice Guys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being nice and reliable. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer.
Correct, but a girl should not "friend zone" a guy if that is what she said she was looking for. Again with the anger at the lies.
However, the "bad boys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being over confident and probably better looking. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer. (See what I did there?) So again my problem is with them saying they want one thing and then dropping everything and running for the exact opposite.
Phasmal: Generally because the friendzone'd `nice guys` are not nice and dependable, but doormats who put women on a pedestal. Me and my boyfriend fight rarely, but if we didn't it would be pissing boring. If he just sat around agreeing with me all day it'd be like dating myself. And that's not what I want. You can get pissed off at people you love it doesn't mean you need to love someone you never fight with.
Also, me and my boyfriend were friends before we went out, I don't think there is a problem of being too much of a friend. The problem comes to when you put yourself so firmly in the friend category your friend can't think of you in a sexual/romantic way at all. Like a brother.
Well I do love me some generalizations so let's continue that line of thought. Women are generally indecisive when making decisions and rarely ever know what they want. They will bitch and moan about wanting one thing while they don't even know what they want to begin with.
No? Not feeling it? Neither was I. Try to stay away from generalizations in the future, they tend to make people angry because of the assumptions you make about them.
You do make some interesting assumptions about me that I need to correct. I only consider myself a "nice guy" because I want to be a friend before I'm boyfriend and I do not befriend women simply to achieve sex as my end game. I legitimately want a relationship so I am disqualified from the "bad boy" club. I routinely disagree with my lady friends because I am honest with them. If a woman can't take opposing views from a friend I don't want to date her.
I do have a legitimate question for you. Not even being sarcastic. As I am not a woman I don't know how I would put myself too firmly in the friend category. Am I only supposed to be there for her sometimes? Do I act like a dick for no reason occasionally? Do I intentionally get involved with the stupid drama to make her resent me every once in a while? I don't know because I don't think a friend or a romantic interest should do any of those things.
When I said `Generally`, I thought it might give the hint I was speaking generally and not about you, I guess not. We can only speak from our own experience.
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :P
ummm.... i get where your coming from i had that kinda attitude of being upset with the whole friendzone nice guy thing .....when i was 15 i think basically people grow out of it. i now realize how stupid i was being but then again so were most people at that age so meh teenagers can be very silly is my point.
Sarge034: So then why not say "I want a bad boy that will be there sometimes"? It is specifically the fact that they basically lie and say they want one thing and then disregard that criteria to go after the exact opposite of what they said they wanted that makes me mad.
If I say "Do you know what time it is?" I'm not looking for "Yes" as an answer. This is simply how language works. What you say and what you mean can be different things. When they say "I just want a nice guy" they do not simply mean "I just want a nice guy disregarding everything else".
Sarge034: However, the "bad boys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being over confident and probably better looking. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer. (See what I did there?)
Actually, being good-looking is a reason for people to want to have sex with (be attracted to) someone. Or being smart. Or being funny. Or whatever. That's how attraction works. That's why those girls go out with them and not with Nice Guys.
You're being nice and you're rewarded with friendship. That's what you've asked for.
Phasmal: When I said `Generally`, I thought it might give the hint I was speaking generally and not about you, I guess not. We can only speak from our own experience.
I said "generally" too. My point is that you should probably stay way from those as they require assumptions on your part. In a debate setting assuming you know something about someone and being wrong makes the other person upset and makes you look like.... well, bad.
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :P
You see, this is how you avoid generalizations!
Here in lies the problem for men like me. I want to be a friend to get to know the woman better. You know, see if a relationship could be more than just physical attraction. This makes it difficult to state my intentions because at that time I don't know what my intentions are. It would be like buying a car but the only information you are allowed to know beforehand is the color, make, and brand. State your intentions. Are you going to buy the car or not? Want to know the gas mileage? Not until you commit. Want to know the vehicle history? Not until you commit. Want to know if the damn thing even runs? Not until you commit.
I don't have commitment issues but walking up to a woman and saying something like, "Hay! What's your name? Cool! Look, I want to become your friend with the express purpose of becoming your boyfriend. See you around!" That just don't work, and yes I know I am being obtuse because you would start flirting or otherwise making your intentions known within the first month of becoming her friend.
Here in lies the problem for men like me. I want to be a friend to get to know the woman better. You know, see if a relationship could be more than just physical attraction. This makes it difficult to state my intentions because at that time I don't know what my intentions are. It would be like buying a car but the only information you are allowed to know beforehand is the color, make, and brand. State your intentions. Are you going to buy the car or not? Want to know the gas mileage? Not until you commit. Want to know the vehicle history? Not until you commit. Want to know if the damn thing even runs? Not until you commit.
I don't have commitment issues but walking up to a woman and saying something like, "Hay! What's your name? Cool! Look, I want to become your friend with the express purpose of becoming your boyfriend. See you around!" That just don't work, and yes I know I am being obtuse because you would start flirting or otherwise making your intentions known within the first month of becoming her friend.
Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out. Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.
tobyornottoby: If I say "Do you know what time it is?" I'm not looking for "Yes" as an answer. This is simply how language works. What you say and what you mean can be different things. When they say "I just want a nice guy" they do not simply mean "I just want a nice guy disregarding everything else".
Correct. Context is important in any form of communication. So when you ask if I know what time it is the context is that we are both living in western society where the correct answer it the time and not "yes". The context of a female saying she wants a dependable guy that respects her is that he must have stable income, not have commitment issues, and not be in the relationship simply for sex. Now, I understand that just because someone has a steady income, no commitment issues, and wants an actual relationship they don't automatically get the girl, but the "bad boys" might have one of three. They might have a steady income, but they don't want a lasting relationship, and they certainly don't want anything but a sexual relationship. So lies... etc.
Actually, being good-looking is a reason for people to want to have sex with (be attracted to) someone. Or being smart. Or being funny. Or whatever. That's how attraction works. That's why those girls go out with them and not with Nice Guys.
First, you are assuming that nice guys are none of those things. Second... really? You are running with primal instinct on this one? Ok, than as a man I am hardwired by my primal instinct to spread my DNA to as many women as possible. How can I possibly want anything other than a sexual relationship? It might be because *GASP* I have overcome my primal urges to impregnate every woman I see because I am looking for more than just sex. Don't tell me I am more evolved than every woman on the planet.
You're being nice and you're rewarded with friendship. That's what you've asked for.
I asked for a chance to get to know the woman better to decide if I want pursue a relationship.
Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out. Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.
gotta agree here its annoying to say the least, i would much rather get to know a girl before getting into a relationship...sadly its very rare for that to happen, gotta state your intentions from very near the beginning, more often than not it doesn't work out. well in my case anyways.
Phasmal: Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out. Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.
Now this is interesting. Most women I know expect men to go at their normally slower pace, but when a man wants to have a leisurely pre-dating get to know each other friendship it is suddenly too slow. Women will even stop the relationship from making any forward progress under the guise of "moving too fast" just to get a better feel for the guy, but I had better try no such thing!
Now don't get me wrong I have had some bad relationships and I have had some good ones. So I know the ropes, it just seems that in my age bracket more and more women are doing this stuff. So it might be an early to mid-20's thing... I don't know.
Phasmal: Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out. Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.
Now this is interesting. Most women I know expect men to go at their normally slower pace, but when a man wants to have a leisurely pre-dating get to know each other friendship it is suddenly too slow. Women will even stop the relationship from making any forward progress under the guise of "moving too fast" just to get a better feel for the guy, but I had better try no such thing!
Now don't get me wrong I have had some bad relationships and I have had some good ones. So I know the ropes, it just seems that in my age bracket more and more women are doing this stuff. So it might be an early to mid-20's thing... I don't know.
I guess things need to develop at the pace you both feel ready for, and it may be hard to gauge what the other persons speed is. Me, I get a feel for what someone is like quite quickly, and as such I've only been in two relationships, one I am still in and the other that lasted two years.
But what I meant was, there are certain things you can only learn about a person through dating them. If my ex had said from the start `I think its okay to dictate to my girlfriend what she can and cannot wear and who she can talk to and other such mindfuckery`, I would have avoided him like the freaking plague.
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :P
And being the friend who flirts with the friend who is oblivious makes things a little difficult.
Here in lies the problem for men like me. I want to be a friend to get to know the woman better. You know, see if a relationship could be more than just physical attraction.
And that shouldn't take you long to figure out, a weekend or two with friends should start to give you an insight into her personality and likes and dislikes.
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :P
And being the friend who flirts with the friend who is oblivious makes things a little difficult.
Oblivious people are... different. They may require a bit less subtlety. (Is oblivious herself)
Phasmal: I guess things need to develop at the pace you both feel ready for, and it may be hard to gauge what the other persons speed is. Me, I get a feel for what someone is like quite quickly, and as such I've only been in two relationships, one I am still in and the other that lasted two years.
But what I meant was, there are certain things you can only learn about a person through dating them. If my ex had said from the start `I think its okay to dictate to my girlfriend what she can and cannot wear and who she can talk to and other such mindfuckery`, I would have avoided him like the freaking plague.
I get all of that, but I guess I kinda moved into unintended territory. I have unintentionally started trying to get you to see this from a male's perspective. Not that there is anything wrong with your perspective, but it never hurts to see the other side right?
As a man I want to know the woman I might date because who wants to waste their time on bad relationships if you don't have to? Dating is expensive, and lets face it a high cost with little to no chance of any type of return is a good way to go broke fast. Women are for the most part finicky from a male's perspective in that they say they want one thing but really want another. For the finally if we take too long to ask a girl out after becoming a friend we slip into this black hole of "friend zone". From our (male) side it looks like women are holding all of the cards, so that is why waaaaaaaaaaay up there I asked if both women and men could evaluate their behavior because we both do things to screw up this process.
museofdoom: Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.
Ah, excellent. I do love me some controversy.
museofdoom: So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.
Hang on, what? I thought the hypothetical male was romantically attracted to the girl in question. As in, not just seeking "to get a little action." There's a difference between not being a jerk to someone and actively being kind to them: the former is polite indifference, while the latter is active kindness.
So which is it? Is the guy asking her out, or is he plucking up the courage to outright ask for sexual favors in return for his previous actions?
museofdoom: Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?
You're adding damning details to the basic story, all of which are clearly intended to tilt the odds in your favor.
museofdoom: Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for.
...hang on a second. Doesn't that just mean she's lying when she says she wishes she could "find a guy like you"? In your metaphor, the girl sets out to find something specific and ends up with a completely different variant of it. If you go out intending to buy a pair of red shoes and come back with gray hiking boots, you clearly liked the latter a lot more than the former. They both might be footwear, but they're completely different in all other respects.
And with that in mind...
museofdoom: So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you.
...this just means she's trying to say, "I wish I could find a guy, like you." That's just a roundabout way of saying that she doesn't like you, but is still attracted to your gender.
museofdoom: This does not make her a hypocrite, or a bitch. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.
But I thought that she liked you enough to say that she wants to "find a guy like you."
I'm sure it's already been mentioned in the fourteen pages of posts, but a popular analogy for this situation is thus: you find yourself turned down for a job, but are informed that your resume will be kept on file and every new prospective candidate will be compared to you. You can't still get the job, but you'll be periodically informed of how new workers fail to live up to the standards you set in your interview.
Sarge034: I get all of that, but I guess I kinda moved into unintended territory. I have unintentionally started trying to get you to see this from a male's perspective. Not that there is anything wrong with your perspective, but it never hurts to see the other side right?
As a man I want to know the woman I might date because who wants to waste their time on bad relationships if you don't have to? Dating is expensive, and lets face it a high cost with little to no chance of any type of return is a good way to go broke fast. Women are for the most part finicky from a male's perspective in that they say they want one thing but really want another. For the finally if we take too long to ask a girl out after becoming a friend we slip into this black hole of "friend zone". From our (male) side it looks like women are holding all of the cards, so that is why waaaaaaaaaaay up there I asked if both women and men could evaluate their behavior because we both do things to screw up this process.
I've heard `dating is expensive` several times, but I dont think I've ever had or been expensive during dating. I initially go out with boyfriend, neither of us have jobs, we go to a restaurant (our first date was on my birthday), he buys because its my birthday, cost him maybe £25 (less in dollars but I dont know how much and cba to google it). Next month is his birthday, I pay for us to go out.
I can't say I have cost my boyfriend any more than he has cost me.
actually that isn't the reason males get mad at friend zoning. it's because they may or may not have a serious desire for the girl. it's not about getting into their pants it's about being with them romantically. being rejected by a close friend that you like is an incredibly painful feeling. i'm guessing the OP just hasn't experienced this. it seems to be an experience more common with guys.
so since your a female and haven't been in the situation, i don't think you can tell us males why it is we rant about it. that's being ignorant and rude. asking the question would have been good enough but describing it without having a clue about what's really going on is just stupid.
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you. I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them. To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.
Ah. Yes. I did sound like him, didn't I? I like to think I'm not that bad, but nonetheless it was uncomfortably familiar.
Probably my post lacked a little finesse, as I wrote it in a hurry. And like I said, I was aiming more to describe a viewpoint than make a forceful argument.