I dislike most gender roles. I'm really particular on the whole kids thing. Marriage is meh because I'd like to get married one day, though I'm in no rush. But children? NEVER. And I hope to God I never run into people IRL who say some of that shit about me because I'm a woman. I will punch them.

But connected to the physical/mechanical part of gender roles, I tend to sorta be for those, I think. Mostly.

American Football, for example. I look at a woman wanting to play said sport with the boys not that they shouldn't do it but that I wonder if they know what they're getting into. This is a physical sort of situation. Do you know how big some of those guys are in American football? And how stats say the average man is stronger than the average woman? And you wanna go out there and get tackled? When guys get seriously injured on their own?

Well... more power to you, hun. I'm just gonna be up here in the safety of the bleachers.

What kind of a poll is this, is it only aimed at stirring up trouble? All 4 of those options make it sound like gender roles are LAW, laws that can apparently be "broken". That's just silly.

Even today a woman can become a housewife WITHOUT being classified as a gender-role-restricted female, she isn't thinking "oh no, should I assume my gender role or break it??", she is thinking "what should i do that suits my family and lifestyle, especially with a baby on the way?"

game-lover:
Do you know how big some of those guys are in American football? And how stats say the average man is stronger than the average woman? And you wanna go out there and get tackled? When guys get seriously injured on their own?

"Stats say", well said...you dodged a potential feminist bullet there :P

Aren't there female football teams? If there are female rugby teams here in NZ (granted only at school/club level) there must be female football teams somewhere :P

Tomboys are sexy and gay blokes are... well, gay.
That's how I see it anyway.

Aaron Sylvester:
What kind of a poll is this, is it only aimed at stirring up trouble? All 4 of those options make it sound like gender roles are LAW, laws that can apparently be "broken". That's just silly.

Even today a woman can become a housewife WITHOUT being classified as a gender-role-restricted female, she isn't thinking "oh no, should I assume my gender role or break it??", she is thinking "what should i do that suits my family and lifestyle, especially with a baby on the way?"

game-lover:
o you know how big some of those guys are in American football? And how stats say the average man is stronger than the average woman? And you wanna go out there and get tackled? When guys get seriously injured on their own?

"Stats say", well said...you dodged a potential feminist bullet there :P

Aren't there female football teams? If there are female rugby teams here in NZ (granted only at school/club level) there must be female football teams somewhere :P

I honestly didn't see the poll that way, but ok.

No we don't have many female football teams. We have rugby teams, but the only female football games that occur are annual "Powder-Puff" games which vary from school to school.

Katatori-kun:

mechashiva77:
Anyway. There's still a terrible double standard when it comes to women vs. men: the whole marriage/kids thing. It's perfectly fine if a man doesn't want either of those, but a woman is one of the following if she does't want a husband and kids:

I think this depends on a lot of factors, some of which may be cultural. As an older (well, compared to most Escapists) unmarried man, I've certainly heard incredulous comments about the way I live. And while my family has not harassed me much about it, it's clear they're somewhat unhappy with the fact that I'm not settled down. I've even had situations where I suspect one member of my family has gone fishing a little bit to see if I'll admit to being gay as an explanation for remaining single so late.

So I'm not saying that there isn't a double standard. Just don't overstate the case and portray men as totally okay.

I have completely forgotten about that. At least your family tried to be subtle in asking you, mine....wasnt so subtle (i think my family has some genetic mutation that prevents us from understanding or utilizing subtelty). Think I was asked at least a dozen times when i hit....25 or so if i was gay for no other reason than because i wasnt married. I didnt even display any of the common gay stereotypes.

thankfully they have stopped asking.

Aaron Sylvester:
What kind of a poll is this, is it only aimed at stirring up trouble? All 4 of those options make it sound like gender roles are LAW, laws that can apparently be "broken". That's just silly.

Even today a woman can become a housewife WITHOUT being classified as a gender-role-restricted female, she isn't thinking "oh no, should I assume my gender role or break it??", she is thinking "what should i do that suits my family and lifestyle, especially with a baby on the way?"

game-lover:
Do you know how big some of those guys are in American football? And how stats say the average man is stronger than the average woman? And you wanna go out there and get tackled? When guys get seriously injured on their own?

"Stats say", well said...you dodged a potential feminist bullet there :P

Aren't there female football teams? If there are female rugby teams here in NZ (granted only at school/club level) there must be female football teams somewhere :P

you know...I have never heard of a female football team here in the US. Female rugby teams, yes, which is wierd as that sport is more violent and dangerous than american football.

well....maybe flag/tag football, doesnt really count though.

Gender roles would be aight, so long as they weren't mandatory, and people weren't belittled/shamed/ridiculed/mocked/harassed for choosing not to abide by them.

Unfortunately, that pretty much never happens. So I say screw them.

IndomitableSam:
Anyway. There's still a terrible double standard when it comes to women vs. men: the whole marriage/kids thing. It's perfectly fine if a man doesn't want either of those, but a woman is one of the following if she does't want a husband and kids:

(Beware, these are stereotypes and what 'people' think, not what I think)
1. Lesbian
2. Fooling herself
3. Too ugly to find a man
4. Lying to herself (same as above, I know, but it bears repeating)
5. Denying nature/biological clock
6. A career woman aka ice queen/bitch
7. Not quite right in the head
8. Damaged goods
9. Spinster/cat lady

... And there's probably a few more. A guy who doesn't want kids is:

1. Straight or gay, both is fine
2. Focused on his career which is perfectley ok
3. Never going to grow up (not generally seen in a bad light)
4. Normal - all men don't need to want kids

And believe me, as a woman around the age of 30, I've been called/told all of the above. Even by family. And total strangers. People truly think there is something deeply, horribly wrong with you if you don't want kids and will tell you so. The nicest thing they say? "Oh, you'll change your mind" "Oh, you'll see sense later on" "Oh, you'll know better later" ... Yeah. Still makes me want to throat-punch them.

As a male approaching 30, I would argue that there is another dreadful double standard that exists within people's perceptions, and that is with regards to sexual compulsion.

For comparison:
It's perfectly fine if a woman doesn't want sex to any great degree, but a man is one of the following if he doesn't exhibit (what I would consider) an extreme focus upon obtaining sex with a woman:

(Likewise, the 'Beware, these are stereotypes and what 'people' think, not what I think' notion applies to the following as well)
1. Gay
2. Fooling himself
3. Too ugly to find a woman
4. Gay
5. Spending more time masturbating than breathing
6. Denying nature/instinctual male sexual drive
7. A career man aka one-night-stand-stud
8. Gay
9. Not quite right in the head
10. Damaged goods
11. Gay
12. Gay
13. Gay
14. Gay
15. Gay

... And there's probably a few more, most of which tend to focus on his desire to explore the labyrinthine passages of big hairy men's rear ends.

A woman who doesn't want sex with a man is:

1. 'Not a slut'
2. Focused on her career, which is perfectly okay
3. Finds a vibrator more fulfilling than a man could be (not generally seen in a bad light)
4. Normal - all women don't need to want sex
5. A lesbian (not generally seen in a bad light)

Of course, that goes both ways after a fashion, as a woman who DOES want sex with a man is often portrayed as 'A slut', while a man who DOES exhibit the (in my opinion) overt drive for sex with a woman is considered normal or (if successful more often than not) a stud/'playa'.

One thing that pisses me off is this idea that if a man is traditionally masculine then he must be insecure.

mechashiva77:
This isn't going to end well. Good lord it will not, and yet I still feel compelled to make this post.

A hypocrisy I often see is that it's ok for women to do/like masculine things, but it's not ok for men to do/like feminine things. People will often come to the defense of a woman wearing pants or watching Samurai Jack, but will harp on a man for manicuring his nails or watching My Little Pony (I can understand being put-off by crazy fans, but I am strictly talking about those who chide fans for watching a show aimed at girls). I vehemently disagree with it.

So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

I wanted a: "I think they are fine, are helpful and make sense due the different neurochemestry of each gender's brain, but if one want's not to follow it more power to him", or abreviated "they are fine, but wouldn't get my panties in a wad if anyone wants to break them.

Edit: Also, i am mainly talking at working roles within society. Tastes? I couldn't care less, of course i would make fun at a friend that likes MLP, but wouldn't disciriminate him for that.

Moth_Monk:
One thing that pisses me off is this idea that if a man is traditionally masculine then he must be insecure.

I don't really care if a guy is traditionally masculine or not. It just ticks me off when they are expected to showcase either.

Hammeroj:
I don't necessarily have a problem with, say, expecting a man to be able to provide for his family. I also don't have a problem with the wife being the provider or anything even remotely to that extent. So, somewhere in the middle on this issue, I guess?

One thing to note here is that despite one's desire to feel like a unique little snowflake, males and females have different purely biological attributes, which is why gender roles will never be gone in their entirety. Not at the expense of intellectual honesty, anyways.

I'm aware that they'll never go away, I just think it's a bit silly to expect everyone to follow them

Captcha: "cross the rubicon" What the hell does that mean?

Vault101:
CAPTIN KEYDICK!!!!?? WHERE? WHERE IS HE I'LL KILL HIM

you pulled a captin keydick..BAD! bad analogy!

Captain Keydick? Sorry thats hilarious and I did post it as a joke to be fair. Still its the most I've ever been quoted so there that I suppose

My experience is that men are usually harder on other men about breaking gender roles than women are towards either women OR men for it. A woman sees another woman breaking a gender role and they say "you go, girl". If she sees a man breaking a role, she thinks it's interesting. Guys see it and call the other guy a fag.

Again, not generalizing here, this is just my *experience*

IndomitableSam:

And believe me, as a woman around the age of 30, I've been called/told all of the above.

Awww D:
Don't worry about it anyway. It's normal to not want kids. I don't And you can't be as bad as my ex... she used to say that if I ever got her pregnant, she'd put it in a jar and leave it on my doorstep as a warning -.-

OT: I'd rather gender roles didn't exist. It would make society more flexible, at the very least.

While there is evidence that as groups men and women have distinct physical and mental traits, but at the end of the day people should be judged on individual merits. I just wanna live my life as I see fit and don't give a damn whether or not how I live conforms to someone else's vision based on group identity. Don't really give a damn about other people living according to "gender roles." In my perfect world, common sense and good judgement prevail, and I'm pretty sure that's gender neutral.

SomeLameStuff:
Well, I can say for certain that men are terrible at giving birth to babies. We don't even have ONE successful report!

http://health.howstuffworks.com/tv-specials/pregnant-man-thomas-beatie.htm

:P

mechashiva77:
So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

There's a couple of interesting things I've come to observe about them...

* It's extremely rare to find complaints on roles from the gender that benefits from them.
* The majority of gender chastising seems to come from within the same gender.

...there's more, but those are the two big ones.

Gender stereotypes (I hesitate on the usage of 'roles' here) are not themselves good or bad, but they exist. And much as we like to tout progress, patriarchy still exists. Remembering that imitation is the highest form of flattery, of course women acting like men is more tolerated than men acting like women. Why would you want to act like what is commonly considered (culturally speaking) to be the inferior gender?

Same thing with literally every other cultural stereotype out there: acting straight is more acceptable than acting gay, acting white is more acceptable than acting Latino, etc. Obviously it's fine to act like whatever culture you're associated with, but if you're going to deviate then it's more acceptable to act like the dominant culture in whatever pertinent spectrum than anything else.

Again, I'm not saying whether this either ought to or ought not to be the case. Ought has little to nothing to do with how culturally acceptable something is in practice.

i dont believe it should exist. but it does, sadly.
the double standart stems from male oriented society. it is ok for woman to do our thing because it is our thing and by doing it we reinforce it so its a "good thing" if even woman want it. us doing woman thing on the other hand....

... And there's probably a few more. A guy who doesn't want kids is:

1. Straight or gay, both is fine
2. Focused on his career which is perfectley ok
3. Never going to grow up (not generally seen in a bad light)
4. Normal - all men don't need to want kids

thats strange, because whenever i tell anyone that i dont want kids im classified under two categories instantly. those categories are:
1. im a 10 year old that should grow up and make many children that will lead me to go bankrupt just because "thats how you do it"
2. im a sore looser that cannot get a girlfriend and should hang myself.

and while its true that im a looser that is still pretty darn insulting.

Aaron Sylvester:

Aren't there female football teams? If there are female rugby teams here in NZ (granted only at school/club level) there must be female football teams somewhere :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gZcSEE7TuGU

you've gotta log in to see it, seeing as it's "inappropiate", but it's legitimate female football (if not revealing)

(the local team practices by my friends backyard...jealous? we can see everything from about 20 ft away in his kitchen)

OT: I know plenty of people who fit the stereotypical gender roles, but they didn't pick them because "HURR DURR I'M A MAN/WOMAN SO I'M GOING TO DO THIS!"

they picked it because they wanted to, either because they are passionate about it/too lazy to do something else.

(my best friends fiance is getting her degree then immediately being a stay at home mom, she wants fuck all to do with ever having a career, and my best friend is pissed about it but figures oh well.)

Someone's probably already put forward the exact same argument, but whatever; my two cents:

Gender roles will always exist as long as males and females exist. Despite what new-agers tend to think about gender fluidity and things like that, the male and female bodies are biologically different. There are relatively few actually transgendered individuals; the rest are little more than fetishists. Gender fanboys/girls. People that are enamoured with the idea of roleplaying a different gender, without any mental condition. These people tend to cross-dress and identify with the other (or either) gender yet still retain many emotional and behavioural traits common to their biological sex. Gender abolitionists like to overlook the fact that male and female bodies/minds are empirically different. So there will ALWAYS be things that either biological sex prefers/excels at, from which gender roles spring from.

On the question of whether or not these roles should be forced upon people, no I don't think they should. Women shouldn't have to stay at home and raise the kids, and men shouldn't have to work 60 hours a week to support their family. If that's what they want to do - and biology suggests the majority do, to varying extents - then go for it.

GunsmithKitten:

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

What should you make of it, pray tell? Should you then use that statement to forbid women from doing what is viewed as traditional male tasks, or vice versa? Is something that vastly general be used to dictate individual lives?

I don't care what you do with your life. Just don't do things for the sole purpose of avoiding gender roles or endorsing them, either because you don't want to fit the picture or do.

uneek:

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

Well that statement that has no argument or proof whatsoever sure shut me up.

OT: My basic philosophy is that people should do whatever they want as long as they're capable of it and it doesn't harm anyone(innocent). Because double standards and gender roles are against that, I am against double standards and gender roles.

Never was it my intention to shut anyone up, let alone you in particular.

About your comment:

Are you saying people shouldn't do things they aren't capable of, eventhough they might have fun doing it?