The DSA are a bunch of looney tunes

 Pages PREV 1 2 3
 

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Why are you and some people in this thread defending horrible criminals? They don't deserve any sympathy for their actions. They brought harm and cruelty to their victims. They're beyond help. I'm gonna stand by my belief that abolishing prisons is a horrible idea, and the DSA are crazy for endorsing it.

I am not seeing that happen at all. Someone who accidentally killed someone is not some dangerous murderer who will go out and kill more people, yet the system may treat them the same as someone who is. All the while letting out someone who who has promised to kill their ex wife and children. That is how these things currently work in reality. Protecting the victims is not even something they consider in the US currently.

At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

Proper rehabilitation does not exist in the US, they release prisoners currently unrehabilitated onto the streets often with nothing but what they came in with. They do not help them re assimilate into society at all really. While working at the Hospital in Dallas across form the prison, when prisoners were released they were often just left walking out onto the streets with no one to pick them up, or help them, they just let them out and left just left walking alone. How are they supposed to survive like that? How is that safe for them or anyone else?

Actual rehabilitation as is implemented in the Netherlands, however, is the most effective means of combating crime, and has ample data to prove it's effectiveness. They do not have a high re offending rate as the US does due to this reason, their reoffending rather is practically non existent. The US prison system does not rehabilitate, you would have to change its entire design and purpose. It is currently used as a punishment, when it should simply be a " barrier to prevent those who wish to harm from harming people" and not a punishment. It does not do that at all. Currently prison in the US does not prevent people in prison from having people killed on the outside, it does not keep violent criminals from finding victims from within the prison itself. It does not protect the victims on the outside. It does not serve society properly in it's current form at all really. It allows violent criminals to keep harming people inside and outside the prison, thus why prison gangs are flourishing. It takes people who would not have committed any more crimes and turns them into hardened criminals due to how it is set up in the first place. US prisons make people worse, not better.

They are not there to protect us, hell the only person who ever tried to kill me in my sleep and stabbed my neighbor while trying to break into my apartment was released from prison already. The police told me that no one is going to stop him if he tries to come kill me again, and that if I wanted it to ever really stop that I would have to shoot him the next time he tries to and make sure I kill him and that is the only way it will ever really end. That is the degree of protection we currently have. The system is broken and does not protect the prisoners or the public.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:
I am not seeing that happen at all. Someone who accidentally killed someone is not some dangerous murderer who will go out and kill more people, yet the system may treat them the same as someone who is. All the while letting out someone who who has promised to kill their ex wife and children. That is how these things currently work in reality. Protecting the victims is not even something they consider in the US currently.

At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

Proper rehabilitation does not exist in the US, they release prisoners currently unrehabilitated onto the streets often with nothing but what they came in with. They do not help them re assimilate into society at all really. While working at the Hospital in Dallas across form the prison, when prisoners were released they were often just left walking out onto the streets with no one to pick them up, or help them, they just let them out and left just left walking alone. How are they supposed to survive like that? How is that safe for them or anyone else?

Actual rehabilitation as is implemented in the Netherlands, however, is the most effective means of combating crime, and has ample data to prove it's effectiveness. They do not have a high re offending rate as the US does due to this reason, their reoffending rather is practically non existent. The US prison system does not rehabilitate, you would have to change its entire design and purpose. It is currently used as a punishment, when it should simply be a " barrier to prevent those who wish to harm from harming people" and not a punishment. It does not do that at all. Currently prison in the US does not prevent people in prison from having people killed on the outside, it does not keep violent criminals from finding victims from within the prison itself. It does not protect the victims on the outside. It does not serve society properly in it's current form at all really. It allows violent criminals to keep harming people inside and outside the prison, thus why prison gangs are flourishing. It takes people who would not have committed any more crimes and turns them into hardened criminals due to how it is set up in the first place. US prisons make people worse, not better.

They are not there to protect us, hell the only person who ever tried to kill me in my sleep and stabbed my neighbor while trying to break into my apartment was released from prison already. The police told me that no one is going to stop him if he tries to come kill me again, and that if I wanted it to ever really stop that I would have to shoot him the next time he tries to and make sure I kill him and that is the only way it will ever really end. That is the degree of protection we currently have. The system is broken and does not protect the prisoners or the public.

Citation needed. Where's your proof rehab works?

WolvDragon:
At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

Norway disagrees

The Article:
The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it's estimated that 67 percent of America's prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

Seems like rehabilitation works better than "stuff criminals in a hole with other criminals and hope that they don't become MORE criminal".

Yes, there are monsters out there and they should never re-enter society. But most criminals end up criminals due to poor circumstances, and CAN be rehabilitated if given the tools they need to survive without returning to crime.

On the other hand, if you don't try to rehabilitate them at all, when they finish serving their time they won't have the money or resources to "make it" in regular society and they'll be forced to return to crime to survive.

Finally, it bears mentioning that people can go to jail for stuff like refusing to pay (or not having the money to pay) for tickets, or for having some pot in their car. Do people like that deserve to be locked up and never given the tools needed to survive once their sentence is up?

Now obviously I don't want murderers and rapists and terrorists running free. But to claim that the current US system works and that rehabilitation doesn't is incorrect.

aegix drakan:

WolvDragon:
At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

Norway disagrees

The Article:
The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it?s estimated that 67 percent of America?s prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

Seems like rehabilitation works better than "stuff criminals in a hole with other criminals and hope that they don't become MORE criminal".

Yes, there are monsters out there and they should never re-enter society. But most criminals end up criminals due to poor circumstances, and CAN be rehabilitated if given the tools they need to survive without returning to crime.

On the other hand, if you don't try to rehabilitate them at all, when they finish serving their time they won't have the money or resources to "make it" in regular society and they'll be forced to return to crime to survive.

Finally, it bears mentioning that people can go to jail for stuff like refusing to pay (or not having the money to pay) for tickets, or for having some pot in their car. Do people like that deserve to be locked up and never given the tools needed to survive once their sentence is up?

Now obviously I don't want murderers and rapists and terrorists running free. But to claim that the current US system works and that rehabilitation doesn't is incorrect.

That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest. People are most likely to commit crimes, prisons are needed. You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

WolvDragon:

aegix drakan:

Now obviously I don't want murderers and rapists and terrorists running free. But to claim that the current US system works and that rehabilitation doesn't is incorrect.

You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

Please re-read above.

I did not argue for prisons to be gotten rid of, I just said rehabilitation is better than "throw pot smokers in a pit with career thieves, not give them the tools they'll need when they get out, and hope they don't turn into career thieves themselves".

You are jumping to conclusions about my stance.

WolvDragon:

That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest.

This is such a cop-out.

You seem hell-bent on not understanding the points being made.

And this just proves my point from a page ago where I said the DSA has HORRIBLE messaging, because people will definitely do exactly what you're doing, even if it's not ACTUALLY what they're arguing for, because they messaged it horrendously and painted a giant easy target for people to hammer them on.

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:
At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

Proper rehabilitation does not exist in the US, they release prisoners currently unrehabilitated onto the streets often with nothing but what they came in with. They do not help them re assimilate into society at all really. While working at the Hospital in Dallas across form the prison, when prisoners were released they were often just left walking out onto the streets with no one to pick them up, or help them, they just let them out and left just left walking alone. How are they supposed to survive like that? How is that safe for them or anyone else?

Actual rehabilitation as is implemented in the Netherlands, however, is the most effective means of combating crime, and has ample data to prove it's effectiveness. They do not have a high re offending rate as the US does due to this reason, their reoffending rather is practically non existent. The US prison system does not rehabilitate, you would have to change its entire design and purpose. It is currently used as a punishment, when it should simply be a " barrier to prevent those who wish to harm from harming people" and not a punishment. It does not do that at all. Currently prison in the US does not prevent people in prison from having people killed on the outside, it does not keep violent criminals from finding victims from within the prison itself. It does not protect the victims on the outside. It does not serve society properly in it's current form at all really. It allows violent criminals to keep harming people inside and outside the prison, thus why prison gangs are flourishing. It takes people who would not have committed any more crimes and turns them into hardened criminals due to how it is set up in the first place. US prisons make people worse, not better.

They are not there to protect us, hell the only person who ever tried to kill me in my sleep and stabbed my neighbor while trying to break into my apartment was released from prison already. The police told me that no one is going to stop him if he tries to come kill me again, and that if I wanted it to ever really stop that I would have to shoot him the next time he tries to and make sure I kill him and that is the only way it will ever really end. That is the degree of protection we currently have. The system is broken and does not protect the prisoners or the public.

Citation needed. Where's your proof rehab works?

They have proven it works.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dutch-prisons-are-closing-2016-3
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/world/europe/netherlands-prisons-shortage.html
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abstractdb/AbstractDBDetails.aspx?id=116928
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11292-010-9097-1

They made the change years ago, and these are the long term results.

WolvDragon:

aegix drakan:

WolvDragon:
At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

Norway disagrees

The Article:
The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it?s estimated that 67 percent of America?s prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

Seems like rehabilitation works better than "stuff criminals in a hole with other criminals and hope that they don't become MORE criminal".

Yes, there are monsters out there and they should never re-enter society. But most criminals end up criminals due to poor circumstances, and CAN be rehabilitated if given the tools they need to survive without returning to crime.

On the other hand, if you don't try to rehabilitate them at all, when they finish serving their time they won't have the money or resources to "make it" in regular society and they'll be forced to return to crime to survive.

Finally, it bears mentioning that people can go to jail for stuff like refusing to pay (or not having the money to pay) for tickets, or for having some pot in their car. Do people like that deserve to be locked up and never given the tools needed to survive once their sentence is up?

Now obviously I don't want murderers and rapists and terrorists running free. But to claim that the current US system works and that rehabilitation doesn't is incorrect.

That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest. People are most likely to commit crimes, prisons are needed. You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

Why is Norway so happy? Don't you think it is due to their actual polices that keep people from becoming desperate and in despair?
The US policies create the desperation by forcing people to have no options, and when you force people to have no options they will lash out and fight for their lives. Desperate people do desperate things. Solve the underlying problems and you prevent the situations and circumstances that caused the situations to occur in the first place. Throwing everyone in prison does not solve any of the problems causing the people to react in such ways to begin with.

This way you have the resources to focus your efforts on the very small minority of those who are truly disturbed and harmful that have to be prevented from harming others. The US system does not even accomplish that objective here currently. You have to listen to what has been proven to work, not ignore it and expect good outcomes.

WolvDragon:
That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest. People are most likely to commit crimes, prisons are needed. You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

I know this conversation didn't concern me, but it feels like you've done a little goal post moving. You asked for citation that rehab works, and then you dismiss it when you have proof.

Instead of blanketedly saying "Oh, that's just because Norway is happy"... Can we see why Norway is happy?

Why don't we start here?

When it comes to quality of life, there are few countries that can supersede America in terms of luxury, comfort and overall well-being. Not even Canada or Britain exceeds the United States in quality of life. However, Norway, an oil-rich country situated in the Scandinavian Peninsula, undeniably outstrips the American standard of living.

The United States has a lower per capita GDP than Norway with a GDP of 51,749 compared to 99,558, respectively, and is also home to one of the most pressing income distribution gaps in any industrialized nation, surpassed in income inequality by only Russia and Mexico.

Due to America's cavernous income inequality, the poorest 38% of Norwegians are better off than the poorest 38% of Americans despite an overall lower average per capita GDP. According to Syracuse University professor Timothy Smeeding, the United States relies heavily on the markets to an extent that social safety nets are neglected, unlike Norway, which focuses more resources on providing aid to the poor.

This is not to say that America completely disregards its poor. To clarify, the United States has initiated its portion of socially-oriented acts, such as its attempt to reform the welfare system during the past two decades.

However, while the number of individuals on welfare was reduced from 5 million to slightly over 2 million, the welfare poor were downgraded into the working poor. Although welfare reform was rooted in good intentions, the lack of government safety nets defeated the purpose of the entire act.

Although the discovery of oil on the land in 1969 had transformed Norway, more than just an abundance of the valued natural resource buttresses Norway's economy. Norway's success has been attributed to what many call the "Norwegian Model"- a model of running a welfare state in which resources are carefully monitored, preserved and kept up-to-date.

While the United States ranks among one of the wealthiest nations in the world, it has stayed remiss in establishing social safety nets, particularly for the less economically-advantaged subsection of the population. Due to the lack of social safety nets, America hosts one of the largest global income inequality gaps, and is ultimately surpassed by the tiny welfare state of Norway in terms of quality of life.

Norway, without anywhere near the money that the US produces... still takes care of its poor. People aren't forced into situations that generations are born into, leaving few ways out in their predicament. And even then, Norway has crime.

And you know the real difference between Norway and US in terms of Rehab? Norway still treats their ex prisoners like citizens. No stigmas, no limitations. In America, if you've been to Prison, in some places you're barely even a citizen any more. How can Rehab work in the US if you're given even less opportunities when you get out of jail than you had when you decided crime was the only way to survive BEFORE you went into Jail?

Think it through logically; would you rather a person who had killed be thrown in a hole and, upon release, quite possibly kill again, or would you rather they be given help and so prevent them ever killing again?

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

aegix drakan:

Norway disagrees

Seems like rehabilitation works better than "stuff criminals in a hole with other criminals and hope that they don't become MORE criminal".

Yes, there are monsters out there and they should never re-enter society. But most criminals end up criminals due to poor circumstances, and CAN be rehabilitated if given the tools they need to survive without returning to crime.

On the other hand, if you don't try to rehabilitate them at all, when they finish serving their time they won't have the money or resources to "make it" in regular society and they'll be forced to return to crime to survive.

Finally, it bears mentioning that people can go to jail for stuff like refusing to pay (or not having the money to pay) for tickets, or for having some pot in their car. Do people like that deserve to be locked up and never given the tools needed to survive once their sentence is up?

Now obviously I don't want murderers and rapists and terrorists running free. But to claim that the current US system works and that rehabilitation doesn't is incorrect.

That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest. People are most likely to commit crimes, prisons are needed. You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

Why is Norway so happy? Don't you think it is due to their actual polices that keep people from becoming desperate and in despair?
The US policies create the desperation by forcing people to have no options, and when you force people to have no options they will lash out and fight for their lives. Desperate people do desperate things. Solve the underlying problems and you prevent the situations and circumstances that caused the situations to occur in the first place. Throwing everyone in prison does not solve any of the problems causing the people to react in such ways to begin with.

This way you have the resources to focus your efforts on the very small minority of those who are truly disturbed and harmful that have to be prevented from harming others. The US system does not even accomplish that objective here currently. You have to listen to what has been proven to work, not ignore it and expect good outcomes.

As much as I admire Norway's prison system, going from A to B would never pass congress, let alone as an election slogan. Isn't the American prison system underfunded as it is already? I would imagine turning all prisons to rehab centers instantaneously would cost many times more than what it is now. I liked Obama and Bernie as (more?)honest politicians, but prefer Obama because he realized you only make progress through compromise. I think Bernie has his heart in the right place but probably would've been met with so much opposition that in the end nothing gets done if he had won.

Eh, in the end it's all just my opinion. I thought Hillary was going to win so what do I know. :T

ex951753:
I would imagine turning all prisons to rehab centers instantaneously would cost many times more than what it is now.

More importantly, it'd take money for people running the prisons, which is an industry run for profit, and wants to remain that way. You could do a lot to make US prisons run better without costing much more, but less re-offenders means less people in prison, which is not the goal of people paid to run prisons.

ObsidianJones:

WolvDragon:
That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest. People are most likely to commit crimes, prisons are needed. You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

I know this conversation didn't concern me, but it feels like you've done a little goal post moving. You asked for citation that rehab works, and then you dismiss it when you have proof.

Instead of blanketedly saying "Oh, that's just because Norway is happy"... Can we see why Norway is happy?

Why don't we start here?

When it comes to quality of life, there are few countries that can supersede America in terms of luxury, comfort and overall well-being. Not even Canada or Britain exceeds the United States in quality of life. However, Norway, an oil-rich country situated in the Scandinavian Peninsula, undeniably outstrips the American standard of living.

The United States has a lower per capita GDP than Norway with a GDP of 51,749 compared to 99,558, respectively, and is also home to one of the most pressing income distribution gaps in any industrialized nation, surpassed in income inequality by only Russia and Mexico.

Due to America?s cavernous income inequality, the poorest 38% of Norwegians are better off than the poorest 38% of Americans despite an overall lower average per capita GDP. According to Syracuse University professor Timothy Smeeding, the United States relies heavily on the markets to an extent that social safety nets are neglected, unlike Norway, which focuses more resources on providing aid to the poor.

This is not to say that America completely disregards its poor. To clarify, the United States has initiated its portion of socially-oriented acts, such as its attempt to reform the welfare system during the past two decades.

However, while the number of individuals on welfare was reduced from 5 million to slightly over 2 million, the welfare poor were downgraded into the working poor. Although welfare reform was rooted in good intentions, the lack of government safety nets defeated the purpose of the entire act.

Although the discovery of oil on the land in 1969 had transformed Norway, more than just an abundance of the valued natural resource buttresses Norway?s economy. Norway?s success has been attributed to what many call the ?Norwegian Model?? a model of running a welfare state in which resources are carefully monitored, preserved and kept up-to-date.

While the United States ranks among one of the wealthiest nations in the world, it has stayed remiss in establishing social safety nets, particularly for the less economically-advantaged subsection of the population. Due to the lack of social safety nets, America hosts one of the largest global income inequality gaps, and is ultimately surpassed by the tiny welfare state of Norway in terms of quality of life.

Norway, without anywhere near the money that the US produces... still takes care of its poor. People aren't forced into situations that generations are born into, leaving few ways out in their predicament. And even then, Norway has crime.

And you know the real difference between Norway and US in terms of Rehab? Norway still treats their ex prisoners like citizens. No stigmas, no limitations. In America, if you've been to Prison, in some places you're barely even a citizen any more. How can Rehab work in the US if you're given even less opportunities when you get out of jail than you had when you decided crime was the only way to survive BEFORE you went into Jail?

They didn't show any evidence on rehab when they mentioned Norway. And throughout this thread I been arguing against the most horrible crooks, not the non violent offenders. Those people I can agree need help, but what makes you think people who kill, raped, or beaten others deserve it? Prisons shouldn't be axed because there are people who are far off out there.

Palindromemordnilap:
Think it through logically; would you rather a person who had killed be thrown in a hole and, upon release, quite possibly kill again, or would you rather they be given help and so prevent them ever killing again?

That person shouldn't be released in the first place. If you killed someone, you should go to jail forever. No parole, nothing. You take a life, then your freedom is forfeight.

Palindromemordnilap:
Think it through logically; would you rather a person who had killed be thrown in a hole and, upon release, quite possibly kill again, or would you rather they be given help and so prevent them ever killing again?

Honestly the only thing a murderer deserves is a bullet in the head and a hole on the side of the road. These people are far beyond any human redemption.

Whitbane:

Palindromemordnilap:
Think it through logically; would you rather a person who had killed be thrown in a hole and, upon release, quite possibly kill again, or would you rather they be given help and so prevent them ever killing again?

Honestly the only thing a murderer deserves is a bullet in the head and a hole on the side of the road. These people are far beyond any human redemption.

Does mean that absolutely no murderer should give themselves up to police, though. Take hostages, blaze of glory, or just get some more murders in first, cause you've nothing to lose.

ex951753:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

That's because Norway is one of the most happiest countries on Earth, people there are least likely to commit heinious acts of crime. Unlike the U.S. where we are one of the most unhappiest. People are most likely to commit crimes, prisons are needed. You get rid of prisons, you let out the worst people onto the street. See how that wins you elections.

Why is Norway so happy? Don't you think it is due to their actual polices that keep people from becoming desperate and in despair?
The US policies create the desperation by forcing people to have no options, and when you force people to have no options they will lash out and fight for their lives. Desperate people do desperate things. Solve the underlying problems and you prevent the situations and circumstances that caused the situations to occur in the first place. Throwing everyone in prison does not solve any of the problems causing the people to react in such ways to begin with.

This way you have the resources to focus your efforts on the very small minority of those who are truly disturbed and harmful that have to be prevented from harming others. The US system does not even accomplish that objective here currently. You have to listen to what has been proven to work, not ignore it and expect good outcomes.

As much as I admire Norway's prison system, going from A to B would never pass congress, let alone as an election slogan. Isn't the American prison system underfunded as it is already? I would imagine turning all prisons to rehab centers instantaneously would cost many times more than what it is now. I liked Obama and Bernie as (more?)honest politicians, but prefer Obama because he realized you only make progress through compromise. I think Bernie has his heart in the right place but probably would've been met with so much opposition that in the end nothing gets done if he had won.

Eh, in the end it's all just my opinion. I thought Hillary was going to win so what do I know. :T

Thaluikhain:

ex951753:
I would imagine turning all prisons to rehab centers instantaneously would cost many times more than what it is now.

More importantly, it'd take money for people running the prisons, which is an industry run for profit, and wants to remain that way. You could do a lot to make US prisons run better without costing much more, but less re-offenders means less people in prison, which is not the goal of people paid to run prisons.

you also run into the state vs federal problem. Implementing changes on the federal level would be the easiest, however only affect federal prisons (which make up about 1/10 of state prison population). Nor do i believe that the federal government has any power over state prisons. That said, states have begun over the past six years to slowly focus more on rehabiliation, including the deep red states. So the narrative that lil devil mentioned is a bit outdated.

I would like to point out that the US has also been closing prisons fairly rapidly.

https://www.citylab.com/design/2012/12/america-finally-closing-prisons-now-what-do-them/4083/

In 2011, 13 states were closing prisons or in the process of it. Michigan has now closed 22 facilities since 2002. New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo announced plans last year to close seven. And legislators in Texas ? a state that had tripled its prison capacity since the late '80s ? recently opted to close the 102-year-old Sugar Land prison. Last week, the BJS confirmed that prison populations are on the decline for the third year in a row, and an arc is beginning to take shape.

https://www.mystatesman.com/news/opinion/commentary-texas-saved-closing-prisons-why-rehabilitation-works/QIyptQPAPOSv9bKyG7yy6K/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30275026

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/closing-state-prisons_n_6614220.html

Whitbane:

Palindromemordnilap:
Think it through logically; would you rather a person who had killed be thrown in a hole and, upon release, quite possibly kill again, or would you rather they be given help and so prevent them ever killing again?

Honestly the only thing a murderer deserves is a bullet in the head and a hole on the side of the road. These people are far beyond any human redemption.

That is just patently absurd. Murderers can be rehabilitated.

BreakfastMan:

Whitbane:

Palindromemordnilap:
Think it through logically; would you rather a person who had killed be thrown in a hole and, upon release, quite possibly kill again, or would you rather they be given help and so prevent them ever killing again?

Honestly the only thing a murderer deserves is a bullet in the head and a hole on the side of the road. These people are far beyond any human redemption.

That is just patently absurd. Murderers can be rehabilitated.

No they can't. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201408/psychopathic-criminals-cannot-be-cured

Murderers don't deserve to be rehabilitated. They need life in prison for what they done.

WolvDragon:
[quote="ObsidianJones" post="528.1055698.24253691"]
They didn't show any evidence on rehab when they mentioned Norway. And throughout this thread I been arguing against the most horrible crooks, not the non violent offenders. Those people I can agree need help, but what makes you think people who kill, raped, or beaten others deserve it? Prisons shouldn't be axed because there are people who are far off out there.

Sure, if you feel like you haven't had enough evidence, I have some here. But it's fascinating and I encourage you to read up on it for yourself instead of the snippets we can send to you. There's a lot of focus on how their efforts cut in half recidivism. It's not the best solution, but if we get lower recidivism doing it... their plan is de facto better than ours.

For one, I do know that not every one who murders is a crazed lunatic. While I don't think I could ever take a life under normal circumstances, if it was a person who was hurting my child and I feel ending that person's life is the only way to prevent my child's pain? Yeah, the idea of killing that person becomes more of an option in my mind. Will I sleep comfortably every night? Maybe if I know I ensured the safety of my child. But I do understand an act will forever taint who I am.

Fun fact, I was going to join the marines to be a Corpsman. There was an event when I was in high school back when I wanted to be a doctor. I figured that I could go for the two and a half and get medical training, and use that to get into a good school to become a doctor. The only reason I didn't enlist is that I was told that I would have to be a rifleman without question, and if pushed I would have to take a life. When I said I didn't know if I could do that, he asked me about my plans to be a doctor.

To which I said, sure, I want to preserve life. And he told me to look it up. The number of doctors who went through their whole career WITHOUT killing someone (through faulty action or indirect cause) is few and far in between. And that kept me from being a doctor.

But yes, I would consider killing someone if it's over my children. If I felt it was the only way to protect them, I would probably do it and live with the self hatred I had for myself.

Not everyone is like me. Some people kill because they are angry, damaged. But I only shared this because I believe people who have killed aren't all murderers. Not in the way we like to think of them, as dirty and deranged sickos. Rapists... yeah, I'm with you. But even then, I'm talking about those people who hunted down a person to do that to.

I don't agree that Prisons should be cut out. They are necessary. I do completely believe, however, that For-Profit Prisons have been linked to such things as the Kids For Kash scandal, have Falsely lobbied to get more prisoners into their walls under the guise of 'saving costs to the taxpaper, and hell, some for-profit prisons are run by gangs. Corruption is as corruption does, I suppose.

ObsidianJones:

WolvDragon:
[quote="ObsidianJones" post="528.1055698.24253691"]
They didn't show any evidence on rehab when they mentioned Norway. And throughout this thread I been arguing against the most horrible crooks, not the non violent offenders. Those people I can agree need help, but what makes you think people who kill, raped, or beaten others deserve it? Prisons shouldn't be axed because there are people who are far off out there.

Sure, if you feel like you haven't had enough evidence, I have some here. But it's fascinating and I encourage you to read up on it for yourself instead of the snippets we can send to you. There's a lot of focus on how their efforts cut in half recidivism. It's not the best solution, but if we get lower recidivism doing it... their plan is de facto better than ours.

For one, I do know that not every one who murders is a crazed lunatic. While I don't think I could ever take a life under normal circumstances, if it was a person who was hurting my child and I feel ending that person's life is the only way to prevent my child's pain? Yeah, the idea of killing that person becomes more of an option in my mind. Will I sleep comfortably every night? Maybe if I know I ensured the safety of my child. But I do understand an act will forever taint who I am.

Fun fact, I was going to join the marines to be a Corpsman. There was an event when I was in high school back when I wanted to be a doctor. I figured that I could go for the two and a half and get medical training, and use that to get into a good school to become a doctor. The only reason I didn't enlist is that I was told that I would have to be a rifleman without question, and if pushed I would have to take a life. When I said I didn't know if I could do that, he asked me about my plans to be a doctor.

To which I said, sure, I want to preserve life. And he told me to look it up. The number of doctors who went through their whole career WITHOUT killing someone (through faulty action or indirect cause) is few and far in between. And that kept me from being a doctor.

But yes, I would consider killing someone if it's over my children. If I felt it was the only way to protect them, I would probably do it and live with the self hatred I had for myself.

Not everyone is like me. Some people kill because they are angry, damaged. But I only shared this because I believe people who have killed aren't all murderers. Not in the way we like to think of them, as dirty and deranged sickos. Rapists... yeah, I'm with you. But even then, I'm talking about those people who hunted down a person to do that to.

I don't agree that Prisons should be cut out. They are necessary. I do completely believe, however, that For-Profit Prisons have been linked to such things as the Kids For Kash scandal, have Falsely lobbied to get more prisoners into their walls under the guise of 'saving costs to the taxpaper, and hell, some for-profit prisons are run by gangs. Corruption is as corruption does, I suppose.

Yeah no, I still don't think murderers need help. They need to be locked away for good.

WolvDragon:
No they can't. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201408/psychopathic-criminals-cannot-be-cured

Firstly, you've gone and equated "murderer" with "psychopathic criminal" there. Secondly:

That Article:
Can psychopathy be cured? According to mental health experts, the short answer to this question is no. Dr. Nigel Blackwood, a leading Forensic Psychiatrist at King's College London, has stated that adult psychopaths can be treated or managed but not cured

Emphasis mine, so depends what you mean by "rehabilitated".

Thaluikhain:

WolvDragon:
No they can't. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201408/psychopathic-criminals-cannot-be-cured

Firstly, you've gone and equated "murderer" with "psychopathic criminal" there. Secondly:

That Article:
Can psychopathy be cured? According to mental health experts, the short answer to this question is no. Dr. Nigel Blackwood, a leading Forensic Psychiatrist at King?s College London, has stated that adult psychopaths can be treated or managed but not cured

Emphasis mine, so depends what you mean by "rehabilitated".

Yes and people who kill others intently are pychopaths. Do I really need to argue this about murderers? They can't be cured, which means why waste money on trying to help them?

Locked at OPs request.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked