Greek Elections 2012. Part 1?

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It is greek election time, the results are almost in and you can count down the last few hours using the Greek governments web tracking system:

http://www.ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012a/public/index.html?lang=en#{"cls":"main","params":{}}

This is a big election because much of the EUs current woes are in regards to the instability of Greece. Austerity is being forced on the citizens, they're not happy and many of them are taking this opportunity to vote against the traditional big parties. France has had peoples attention, but Hollande has committed to carrying on cuts in one form or another. Greece is where people should be paying attention because who knows what will happen here.

Currently it looks like there will be either a coalition government between PASOK and New Democracy, a coalition government between PASOK + ND + ??? OR the vote will be to split for even a coalition government to form. Any option will be far weaker than the one we have had until now and will worry EU leaders and the markets, although it is the latter option which will most worry people.

This is quite a thing to occur, because there are 300 seats in the Greek parliament and only 250 of them are up for grabs. Whichever party gets the most votes gets the extra 50 seats as a bonus. This si meant to form stable governments, which isn't working out too well right now.

If no government can be formed, the Greeks will have to have another election while a caretaker government muddles along without a great deal of power.

The Coalition

PASOK - The nepotistic 'Socialist' party that has pretty consistently been run by the same family. Pretty terrible, but some people still have affection for it because if not for PASOK they wouldn't have gotten healthcare or pensions.

New Democracy - The Greek Right. As you would expect. Will be coming out of this election with a bigger vote share.

The Others

KKK - Greece still has a major Stalinist party that at the moment has 8.4% of the vote share, which would get it 26 seats. It is weird that anyone would support a Stalinist party (And I'm a communist) but it is kind of understandable because the KKK were the main Nazi fighting group in WWII.

SYRIZA - The main left opposition. Their plan is to annul the lending treaties, renounce the debt but remain in the Euro. Currently second with 51 seats.

DIMAR - Split from Syriza. More right wing and closer to PASOK. Are inconsistent about their approach to the EU, much like SYRIZA!

Golden Dawn - Actual facists. Their leader writes articles about how greats Nazis, Hitler and Nazi Germany was. They have the nazi salute. Just today their leader has been threatening 'traitors' in Greece.

Anexartitoi Ellines - Right wing party with some dashing of nationalism.

Is it just me or is the situation in Greece worryingly reminiscent of the situation in early 1930s Germany? Also, Greece is totally screwed, there's no way they can form a viable government without another election.

DJjaffacake:
Is it just me or is the situation in Greece worryingly reminiscent of the situation in early 1930s Germany? Also, Greece is totally screwed, there's no way they can form a viable government without another election.

At-least if in the unlikely event that Greece does end up electing a tin-pot Nazi-like government eventually, there's not much chance of it being a threat to any nearby countries. Maybe Albania I guess but I'd LMAO if they tried to fuck around with any EU and/or NATO countries, a swift arse-kicking would be in order.

DJjaffacake:
Is it just me or is the situation in Greece worryingly reminiscent of the situation in early 1930s Germany?

Well, there's parallels, yeah, but I wouldn't read too much into that.

Times of economic crisis is always going to get voters abandoning the mainstream for one extreme or the other, that's hardly confined to Greece.

DJjaffacake:
Is it just me or is the situation in Greece worryingly reminiscent of the situation in early 1930s Germany? Also, Greece is totally screwed, there's no way they can form a viable government without another election.

I was just reading up about those Golden Dawn guys... yeah, they're the real deal. They wouldn't be starting any wars, but there would be some major ethnic persecution going on if they grew in power.

Seems like they're pretty much following the formula.
"Economic downturn? Rush to the extreme parties! The way to solve this is to get neo nazis into goevernment!"

There isn't really any neo about it. Unlike a lot of countries after WWII, Greece didn't really purge out and take action against all the nazis and collaborators. There are also reputedly quite a few old middle-class country folk who did quite well under the Nazis, never really got effected by the terror of the occupation which mostly effected people in the cities and have fond memories of those days.

We have 3 days to see if Syriza can put a coalition together. If not we'll have re-elections coming and we'll see how things change. If Syriza can get from 2nd to 1st that will be a massive boost for them because of the extra 50 seats the leading party gets, which will make it easy for Syriza to form a coalition government.

JoJo:

DJjaffacake:
Is it just me or is the situation in Greece worryingly reminiscent of the situation in early 1930s Germany? Also, Greece is totally screwed, there's no way they can form a viable government without another election.

At-least if in the unlikely event that Greece does end up electing a tin-pot Nazi-like government eventually, there's not much chance of it being a threat to any nearby countries. Maybe Albania I guess but I'd LMAO if they tried to fuck around with any EU and/or NATO countries, a swift arse-kicking would be in order.

Has history taught you nothing! Never underestimate a greek, for he will get all sweaty and run around not wearing much shouting about where he comes from. And then you'll need a disillusioned deformed guy to switch sides so you can beat him.

DJjaffacake:
Has history taught you nothing! Never underestimate a greek, for he will get all sweaty and run around not wearing much shouting about where he comes from.

Nah. He'll just give you a gift. Beware.

On topic, I don't see how a coalition can be built there. But it sets an example about one thing: The public, the mere mortals, the people hit hardest by the crisis - they despise the austerity measures. How wouldn't they? Youth unemployment only got worse in Greece for example.

DJjaffacake:
Is it just me or is the situation in Greece worryingly reminiscent of the situation in early 1930s Germany?

1930's Germany? Ha! More like 1920's-1930's Spain! You have not only Communist/Socialist Parties (Which seem to be behaving themselves but the more this drags on, the more they'll end up radical), but you have a Fascist Party in there now! If they have to keep voting, then things will start getting more radical, more extreme, up to the point where only the Extreme Left and Extreme Right are running and getting seats, and you'll end up with a Civil War!

Greece needs to decide once and for all, whether they want to be bailed out, or not, and let whatever consequences happen. What they're doing is basically avoiding to take a shot but they're already in the hospital, but the more they refuse to move from their seat, the more sick they get until they die and are reborn as a new entity entirely.

Jonluw:
Seems like they're pretty much following the formula.
"Economic downturn? Rush to the extreme parties! The way to solve this is to get neo nazis into goevernment!"

Well our dear Adolf did create lots of jobs... in the army and related arms industry, but that's a detail. Surely the modern neo-nazis could pull off a similar "miracle" and almost reduce unemployment to 0.

generals3:

Jonluw:
Seems like they're pretty much following the formula.
"Economic downturn? Rush to the extreme parties! The way to solve this is to get neo nazis into goevernment!"

Well our dear Adolf did create lots of jobs... in the army and related arms industry, but that's a detail. Surely the modern neo-nazis could pull off a similar "miracle" and almost reduce unemployment to 0.

Well, yeah but likely in other sectors of the economy. It's not like Greece has a reason to be angry at any other country for something they did in the recent history. Okay, so there is that name dispute with Macedonia, but...that'd be stretching it.

Mr.Mattress:

Greece needs to decide once and for all, whether they want to be bailed out, or not, and let whatever consequences happen. What they're doing is basically avoiding to take a shot but they're already in the hospital, but the more they refuse to move from their seat, the more sick they get until they die and are reborn as a new entity entirely.

When you say "Greece", bear in mind there was evidently a difference between the Greek population and the Greek government.

The EU and its lengthy bailout rumbling has dealt with the politicians from the last election who used that existing mandate to take what the EU offered. The population evidently felt differently, and duly kicked those parties in the testicles when handing out the new mandate. That's democracy for you.

Vegosiux:

generals3:

Jonluw:
Seems like they're pretty much following the formula.
"Economic downturn? Rush to the extreme parties! The way to solve this is to get neo nazis into goevernment!"

Well our dear Adolf did create lots of jobs... in the army and related arms industry, but that's a detail. Surely the modern neo-nazis could pull off a similar "miracle" and almost reduce unemployment to 0.

Well, yeah but likely in other sectors of the economy. It's not like Greece has a reason to be angry at any other country for something they did in the recent history. Okay, so there is that name dispute with Macedonia, but...that'd be stretching it.

You're forgetting Turkey. There's a LOT of bad blood between Greece/Greek Cypriots and the Turks.

You're forgetting Turkey. There's a LOT of bad blood between Greece/Greek Cypriots and the Turks.

Ha! Ain't Turkey like the 4th army in NATO? They could crush Greece tomorrow if they wanted . We're not in the middle ages anymore guys , countries don't just conquer each other . Well , then you have Putin which wants the USSR back , but that's another story .

The solution to Greece problems is quite simple , let them leave the EU , STOP keeping their economy on life-support and let them sort it up . They have the infrastructure , they have it much better than the ex-soviet block countries back in '89. They'll default , there's no question in it , but that may just be the kick they need . Re-invite them after 5 years when things stabilize( The BIG problem is with Spain and Italy . You cannot just "keep going" without like 20% of Eu's economy. Only solution I see is fast-forward the entry in the Euro zone of ex-soviet block countries that now have a pretty stable economy . Ex: Poland,baltic states etc).

Gwarr:

The solution to Greece problems is quite simple , let them leave the EU , STOP keeping their economy on life-support and let them sort it up . They have the infrastructure , they have it much better than the ex-soviet block countries back in '89. They'll default , there's no question in it , but that may just be the kick they need . Re-invite them after 5 years when things stabilize( The BIG problem is with Spain and Italy . You cannot just "keep going" without like 20% of Eu's economy. Only solution I see is fast-forward the entry in the Euro zone of ex-soviet block countries that now have a pretty stable economy . Ex: Poland,baltic states etc).

*polite cough*

EU =/= Euro Zone

The EU spans the single market plus representation in the European institutions. What you mean is the Euro Zone i.e. the single currency area whose members only include Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain, in contrast to the 27 members of the EU (which also includes the UK, for instance).

Gwarr:
-

Unfortunately things aren't that simple. Going to back to the Drachma is some kind of a taboo in Greece, let alone the rest of the Eurozone. The main reason is that it is going to cause a chain reaction in the other PIGS nations and zhe Germans don't want that. In adition no one really knows what is going to happen the day after. Greek politicians portray it as a complete disaster while many foreign media think it's the only beneficial solution. I have a feeling I will experience it pretty soon though..

Gwarr:

The solution to Greece problems is quite simple , let them leave the EU , STOP keeping their economy on life-support and let them sort it up . They have the infrastructure , they have it much better than the ex-soviet block countries back in '89. They'll default , there's no question in it , but that may just be the kick they need . Re-invite them after 5 years when things stabilize( The BIG problem is with Spain and Italy . You cannot just "keep going" without like 20% of Eu's economy. Only solution I see is fast-forward the entry in the Euro zone of ex-soviet block countries that now have a pretty stable economy . Ex: Poland,baltic states etc).

There is a number of issues with this.

Greece currently has a deficit on the primary balances. That means that even if they didn't owe anyone a dime, they would immediately have to take on debt to be able to pay salaries. If they default on their debt this will not be possible.

Most public Greek debt is owned by Greek banks, and if the government were to default then their banking system would collapse. Not only will this mean that businesses will be unable to seek credit to expand, but any savings by people or companies will be lost as the government will be unable to repay anything as it is already running a deficit with money they neither have nor can borrow.

So, all savings would be lost, infrastructure would not be maintained, all public holdings would have to be sold to the Chinese for a pittance and police would be operating in a country with 30-60% unemployment, starvation and a feeling of hostility and betrayal by the establishment, under the promise that part of their wages may be paid at some future date. I don't see this turning into an economic miracle.

As for the analogy, countries back in '89 had lots of people with a vested interest in their well-being and integration into NATO, there isn't such an interest in Greece anymore, the charity of western countries has been expended. They also had the ability to take loans and the desire to reform. The Greek electorate has rejected reform.

As for letting in lots of Eastern European countries into the Euro, these countries still have issues with corruption. We tried letting in such a country when we let in Greece. This did not work out well.

Nyooz updates gaiz!
(News updates guys)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18048946
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18046280
So Greece basically needs to form a pro-austerity government from a parliament where the majority are anti-austerity, or alternatively, leave the Eurozone. In other words, they are foooked.

DJjaffacake:
Nyooz updates gaiz!
(News updates guys)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18048946
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18046280
So Greece basically needs to form a pro-austerity government from a parliament where the majority are anti-austerity, or alternatively, leave the Eurozone. In other words, they are foooked.

They're looking at the possibility of a new election though polls indicate that the only people who would suffer would be the Nazis. As I recall the Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone but they also want to keep getting money without having to work for it.

I wonder how it'll look in a decade or two. Will it be the communists or the fascists or will it be another military dictatorship?

Istvan:

DJjaffacake:
Nyooz updates gaiz!
(News updates guys)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18048946
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18046280
So Greece basically needs to form a pro-austerity government from a parliament where the majority are anti-austerity, or alternatively, leave the Eurozone. In other words, they are foooked.

They're looking at the possibility of a new election though polls indicate that the only people who would suffer would be the Nazis. As I recall the Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone but they also want to keep getting money without having to work for it.

I wonder how it'll look in a decade or two. Will it be the communists or the fascists or will it be another military dictatorship?

Maybe it'll be called, to steal an idea from HIGNFY, New South Germany.

I kind of expect diplomats in Brussels to be working on ways to change various EU treaties regarding the euro so that in the future, countries can be made to leave without unanimit.

Because if even Barosso (known to be extremely carefull, moderate and never say anything that judges a member state in public) says that if Greece isn't playing ball now, they'd better leave, then it's nearing becoming official that the rest of the EU wants Greece gone.

What he said even hinted at a unanimity behind wanting Greece gone, because he said 'had 16 other parliaments to respect', which suggests that none of the other eurozone countries have any more patience for Greece.


Quite frankly I don't think there is any more patience. Many other countries have given what they're prepared to give, and even big donors like Germany and France have limits. Not only that, but by now most assets of European banks in Greece have been sold off, devalued, or secured against a Greek bankruptcy by acquiring additional assets.

Last round of financial aid for instance, French banks were big in Greece. Big to the point where letting Greece go bankrupt could've meant French banks needing rescue. Credit Agricole for instance had 24,5 milliards of Greek national debt mid-2011. A lot of that of that is now gone, as is the reason to support Greece for the interest of national financial institutions.

Dutch bank ING for instance had loans which expired and were paid back in march 2012 and went from a total of 3,1 milliard to 1,4 milliard in Greek assets. ABN Amro went from 3 milliards to 240 million, most of it loaned to state companies like the railways which are more secure.

The only thing that could still hold it back is assets in other southern EU countries like Spain and Italy. They're already in a risky position, so they can't have banks exploding on them. The rest of the EU can't have Spain and Italy getting in trouble. But outside of that chain-collapse effect there's no real reason to keep supporting Greece. And whether or not southern Europe would get in a lot of trouble from a Greek bankruptcy is something I don't know.

Blablahb:

The only thing that could still hold it back is assets in other southern EU countries like Spain and Italy. They're already in a risky position, so they can't have banks exploding on them. The rest of the EU can't have Spain and Italy getting in trouble. But outside of that chain-collapse effect there's no real reason to keep supporting Greece. And whether or not southern Europe would get in a lot of trouble from a Greek bankruptcy is something I don't know.

Even if they do, better focus our assets on Italy and Spain where they wont be squandered.

You know what I realized? There are a lot of Similarities between the Republican Party of America, and the SYRIZA of Greece (Well, except for actual politics). Both Parties are currently filled with Extremists (Right for America, Left for SYRIZA), who refuses to work with the Dominant Party (The Democrats in America, the New Democracy/PASOK in Greece), and constantly are trying to do things that they think will be good for the Economy (Severe Cuts to everything for America, Extreme Tax Increases and refusing the Austerity Measures for Greece), but will end up collapsing their economy by doing so...

It's actually like America and Greece, right now, are parallel Universes...

Istvan:
Even if they do, better focus our assets on Italy and Spain where they wont be squandered.

True, but I see now I worded it different from how I meant it. I meant assets of Spanish and Italian companies in Greece. If Greece is allowed to collapse, those companies suffer too, and if their interests were big, it could further worsen the situation in those other countries.

But like I said, no clue if such holdings in Greek government exist in those two countries on a large scale.

Well , they failed to form a government , election time again , this time the extremist might get more power. I really don't see the logic of Greeks . You think Far-Right Nazis will help you out of this mess.?

One of my favorite blaggers, The Infamous Brad, had a few things to say about Greece and similar crises.

Brad Hicks:
And so the usual international agencies, backed hard by the German and (outgoing) French governments, got the two corrupt parties to agree to a bipartisan deal: (a) None of the people who stole that money are to be inconvenienced in any way, because they're "job creators." (b) Their corrupt bankster partners must get back as much as possible, by disassembling every remaining productive asset in Greece and shipping it to Germany, and by closing down every public service from the hospitals to the schools to the police, so that the tax money that would normally pay for those things can go to the German banksters. And finally (c) since nobody even denies, any more, that this will destroy the Greek economy, the Greeks will pay those debts for all eternity. Presumably even if they do work hard enough to pay off those loans, decades from now, all that will happen is that new corruptocrats, new kleptocrats, will be installed by the banksters to take out new loans and steal those.

tl;dr version: French, German, and Greek bipartisan elites have voted unanimously to turn Greece into the Haiti of Europe.

(SNIP)

But either way, the anti-austerity, anti-bailout, anti-kleptocrat voters win because they've already succeeded in the only thing they needed, in the short run: if a governing coalition isn't in place by Tuesday, if there isn't a government in place that still agrees to the bailout and austerity terms imposed on them by the German and (outgoing) French governments by the end of the day on Tuesday? The Greek government just flat-out defaults on its loans to Deutsche Bank, and Deutsche Bank is in even more trouble than the Greeks are. As the old saying goes, if you owe your bank a hundred dollars, and you can't pay, you're in a lot of trouble. But if you owe your bank a hundred million dollars, and you can't pay, your bank is in a lot of trouble.

Istvan:

As I recall the Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone but they also want to keep getting money without having to work for it.

Words can't express how terribly wrong you are..

AWAR:

Words can't express how terribly wrong you are..

Would you care to elaborate?

Today, Dutch finance minister De Jager backed Barosso when he threatened that if Greece refuses to carry out the previous agreements, the Netherlands will stop any form of lending. Giving Greece some 5 milliards while we have to cut back drastically ourselves was already a not-so-popular move, but with the government having fallen and new elections coming up, continuing to give money to Greece if they violate the previous agreements would reflect very badly on most parties backing it, so I doubt such a thing would happen.

And with Germany and France apparently having run out of patience too, that means stuff's looking really bad for Greece if they break the agreements. Germany and France tend to be big political influences, but the Netherlands tends to seize an influence one wouldn't expect for it's size, especially since it's been relatively stable during the economic crisis. I'm not really aware of any fervent opponents of letting Greece get away with breaking the agreements, but I guess we won't know for certain untill it happens and they take votes.

AWAR:
Words can't express how terribly wrong you are..

Syriza refuses to take part in any type of necessary reform, and they've been made the largest party and it doesn't look like they'll get decimated in the next election, so what other conclusion is possible than that Greeks want free money without having to work for it?

Istvan:

AWAR:

Words can't express how terribly wrong you are..

Would you care to elaborate?

I'll try.. You understanding it though might not really work though..

Firstly EU doesn't give us money for free. They lend us money, albeit on very low interest, to pay for the interest of our previous loans (which were given to buy german faulty submarines) but that's another story. Not a single euro goes to the Greek public (like for paying pensions, hospitals e.t.c.)
Our previous government had no legal authority for the austerity measures taken since '09. That is because before PASOK took over, the Greek public had no idea about the debts and Mr. Papandreou's electoral slogan was "Money Exists", promising social justice and more spending while he and the IMF had already negotiated in secret, before he was ellected. After he was elected he imposed the harshest austerity measures ever without taking in consideration the massive public demonstrations of hundreds of thousand "indignant" Greeks. The result? Greece is now in it's 5th year of recession, with over 20% true unemployment rates (over 50% (!!) in young people under 24), more than 115.000 companies unable to pay their employees, dramatic cuts in already low wages (in some cases they reach over 50%), 22% suicide rate increase, social security under demolition, school books not being printed by the state, 586 euros minimum salary (EU average: 1160), increased taxes and the food prices still at "european levels", and the governing party with 13% of the people's vote.

I want to add something else. There is a lot of talk that Greek people are lazy bastards which is simply not true and rooted in racism. There are free loaders and corruption in Greece just like everywhere else in the world, but the vast majority of people in every nation work hard for what they got (if they are employed ofcourse).

Blablahb:
snip

Read the above, also

Syriza refuses to take part in any type of necessary reform, and they've been made the largest party and it doesn't look like they'll get decimated in the next election, so what other conclusion is possible than that Greeks want free money without having to work for it?

SYRIZA made it clear they will not form a coalition government with the two major parties that brought the country in this state. It proposed to for a coalition party with leftist parties but it didn't really work well, mainly because the communist party thinks they are too...right wing for their taste... The way I see it? The two major parties are so rotten, they prefer catering for their own needs than the needs of the public. And the public's discomfort has already been expressed by their historically low percentages. Ultimately what will happen in Greece will be more so dictated by the Europeans powers that be, than our politicians.

Free money?Hmm... Let me be clear on something. Every time I see this something deep inside me twists my insides...So try to be a little more reasonable OK?

Blablahb:

Syriza refuses to take part in any type of necessary reform, and they've been made the largest party and it doesn't look like they'll get decimated in the next election, so what other conclusion is possible than that Greeks want free money without having to work for it?

They are not yet largest, but they will most likely be so after the general elections in june.
OT: Greece will most likely be kicked out of the eurozone after the election, the polls show that the reform friendly partys are in deep trouble. And Greece has only secured enought money to pay it's bills untill the end of june (according to The Economist). If Baroso's words is an indication of the general opinion in the eurozone (as Blab says) then I can see no other result than a Greexit.

AWAR:

Istvan:

AWAR:

Words can't express how terribly wrong you are..

Would you care to elaborate?

I'll try.. You understanding it though might not really work though..

Firstly EU doesn't give us money for free. They lend us money, albeit on very low interest, to pay for the interest of our previous loans

And the low interest is essentially the chunk which the Greek government gets for free.

AWAR:

Our previous government had no legal authority for the austerity measures taken since '09. That is because before PASOK took over, the Greek public had no idea about the debts and Mr. Papandreou's electoral slogan was "Money Exists", promising social justice and more spending while he and the IMF had already negotiated in secret, before he was ellected. After he was elected he imposed the harshest austerity measures ever without taking in consideration the massive public demonstrations of hundreds of thousand "indignant" Greeks. The result? Greece is now in it's 5th year of recession, with over 20% true unemployment rates (over 50% (!!) in young people under 24), more than 115.000 companies unable to pay their employees, dramatic cuts in already low wages (in some cases they reach over 50%), 22% suicide rate increase, social security under demolition, school books not being printed by the state, 586 euros minimum salary (EU average: 1160), increased taxes and the food prices still at "european levels", and the governing party with 13% of the people's vote.

I already explained what the alternative is. As for the hardship of the Greek citizens it is worth noting that existing on the European continent does not entitle one to western European living standards.

AWAR:

I want to add something else. There is a lot of talk that Greek people are lazy bastards which is simply not true and rooted in racism. There are free loaders and corruption in Greece just like everywhere else in the world, but the vast majority of people in every nation work hard for what they got (if they are employed ofcourse).

I don't see any arguments based on biological inferiority of Greeks. The issues I hear raised most often is the extensive and inefficient public sector plus widespread tax fraud, which means the state cannot obtain sufficient revenue to operate on its current level without borrowing. There is also dissatisfaction that the Greek government tried to conceal its debts.

Istvan:

And the low interest is essentially the chunk which the Greek government gets for free.

I already explained what the alternative is. As for the hardship of the Greek citizens it is worth noting that existing on the European continent does not entitle one to western European living standards.

I don't see any arguments based on biological inferiority of Greeks. The issues I hear raised most often is the extensive and inefficient public sector plus widespread tax fraud, which means the state cannot obtain sufficient revenue to operate on its current level without borrowing. There is also dissatisfaction that the Greek government tried to conceal its debts.

1) Ah.. Depends on the point of view I suppose.. wtf..

2) That might be correct. But if Europe's idea of stability and economic growth is turning Greece into Haiti...

3) There are obvious surges of stereotyping and subtle racism throughout the media. With the help of international banks like Lehman Brothers and with the blessings of EU the then Greek government concealed a part of it's debt in order to join the euro. I can't really see the Greek public at fault here. Also, there is massive corruption mainly in the political system, but if there wasn't any, where would EU sell their faulty submarines huh?

AWAR:

2) That might be correct. But if Europe's idea of stability and economic growth is turning Greece into Haiti...

Owing to the size of Greek debt and the inefficiency of its government it is already Haiti. The stuff Greece deals with now is going to be remembered with nostalgia, compared to the misery that would ensue if the EU were to cease its nursemaiding.

AWAR:

3) There are obvious surges of stereotyping and subtle racism throughout the media.

I still haven't seen any suggestion in the media that the Greek populace is biologically inferior. Our right-wing extremists have voiced support for Greece however, observing that Greece isn't a Muslim country.

AWAR:

With the help of international banks like Lehman Brothers and with the blessings of EU the then Greek government concealed a part of it's debt in order to join the euro. I can't really see the Greek public at fault here.

They've permitted things to run their course through the good years and for their government to build up debt. If Greeks do not feel that New Democracy and PASOK are up to the challenge then I would recommend replacing them.

AWAR:

Also, there is massive corruption mainly in the political system, but if there wasn't any, where would EU sell their faulty submarines huh?

This is a red herring.

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