New Paradigm: The Center vs The Extremists

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Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Trump is even less like Bernie than Hillary is.

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Trump is even less like Bernie than Hillary is.

True. And..?

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Trump is even less like Bernie than Hillary is.

True. And..?

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
Trump is even less like Bernie than Hillary is.

True. And..?

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

True. And..?

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

You voted for Trump.

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

You voted for Trump.

No, I didn't.

erttheking:
Because they're not the ones that are actively suppressing their right to vote. So is that deflection an admittance that Trump doesn't give a crap about the LGBT community? Because that's what it looks like.

Well, to be fair, if you support the importation of people who're anti-LGBT and likely to harm those within that community, you yourself are pretty anti-LGBT by association.

Generally, people don't like being sacrificed to appease the gods of diversity, LGBT or otherwise.

The Lunatic:

erttheking:
Because they're not the ones that are actively suppressing their right to vote. So is that deflection an admittance that Trump doesn't give a crap about the LGBT community? Because that's what it looks like.

Well, to be fair, if you support the importation of people who're anti-LGBT and likely to harm those within that community, you yourself are pretty anti-LGBT by association.

Generally, people don't like being sacrificed to appease the gods of diversity, LGBT or otherwise.

Is it fun making sweeping generalisations? Living in a black and white world where everything is so simple? Interesting tactic of conveniently diluting nuance to claim hypocrisy, but certainly not new. In fact, it seems to be the only tactic left these days. Kinda makes you think.

Xsjadoblayde:
Is it fun making sweeping generalisations? Living in a black and white world where everything is so simple? Interesting tactic of conveniently diluting nuance to claim hypocrisy, but certainly not new. In fact, it seems to be the only tactic left these days. Kinda makes you think.

Are you seriously telling me that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't pretty strongly against LGBT rights?

The Lunatic:

Xsjadoblayde:
Is it fun making sweeping generalisations? Living in a black and white world where everything is so simple? Interesting tactic of conveniently diluting nuance to claim hypocrisy, but certainly not new. In fact, it seems to be the only tactic left these days. Kinda makes you think.

Are you seriously telling me that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't pretty strongly against LGBT rights?

Are you seriously assuming all the conservative religious middle-east dwellers are the ones invading your country? Because I garuntee you that there's plenty of 'natives' set in the same mindset. Should we exhile those? It would avoid this blasted hypocrisy problem, wouldn't it?

The Lunatic:

Xsjadoblayde:
Is it fun making sweeping generalisations? Living in a black and white world where everything is so simple? Interesting tactic of conveniently diluting nuance to claim hypocrisy, but certainly not new. In fact, it seems to be the only tactic left these days. Kinda makes you think.

Are you seriously telling me that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't pretty strongly against LGBT rights?

Regrettably, "the Middle East" is, in itself, a vast sweeping generalisation. It obviously refers to the Arabic world, but also the Arabic-speaking parts of Africa as well as Iran (which is not Arabic) and Turkey, which is just as much a part of Europe as it is the Middle East. There's no bright line saying "Here beginneth the Middle East."

As to LGBT rights specifically: yes, I am seriously telling you that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't strongly against LGBT rights. Same-sex behaviour is only criminalised in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, and the Sudan (which is a part of Africa, really.) It's frowned upon culturally in most other areas, but is broadly accepted in Israel and Jordan, and even Turkey had a decent record in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of way. For most of the Middle East, gay rights are at the same level as the Bible Belt; it's legal, but it isn't mainstream or considered socially "correct."

The situation has been getting worse recently, because of the broad failure of the Arab Spring and the resulting authoritarian backlash in Egypt and Syria, as well as Erdogan's increasingly-dictatorial control of Turkey (and ISIS, of course.) But generally speaking, you're not going to get stoned to death for being gay unless you visit Saudi Arabia or Iran, and those are also places where you can be arrested for drinking, so...?

Xsjadoblayde:
Are you seriously telling me that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't pretty strongly against LGBT rights?

Are you seriously assuming all the conservative religious middle-east dwellers are the ones invading your country? Because I garuntee you that there's plenty of 'natives' set in the same mindset. Should we exhile those? It would avoid this blasted hypocrisy problem, wouldn't it?[/quote]

Every single opinion poll of those countries appears to support that idea. Yeah.

A fairly large number of them have the death penalty for them.

You think that support magically disappears the moment they step foot on European soil? Don't be so naive.

The majority of "Natives" that are against LGBT rights are a shrinking population, mostly of old people. Muslims who are against LGBT are a rapidly growing population of younger people, thanks to immigration. There's been poll after poll on this, I can dig them up for you, as every single time somebody on this forum has said something like this, I've had to cite them, and generally they'll refuse facts, even when presented in that form, so, it may be simpler if we just skip to that part.

bastardofmelbourne:
Regrettably, "the Middle East" is, in itself, a vast sweeping generalisation. It obviously refers to the Arabic world, but also the Arabic-speaking parts of Africa as well as Iran (which is not Arabic) and Turkey, which is just as much a part of Europe as it is the Middle East. There's no bright line saying "Here beginneth the Middle East."

Well, you know where I'm talking about, that's the important bit.

bastardofmelbourne:

As to LGBT rights specifically: yes, I am seriously telling you that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't strongly against LGBT rights. Same-sex behaviour is only criminalised in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, and the Sudan (which is a part of Africa, really.) It's frowned upon culturally in most other areas, but is broadly accepted in Israel and Jordan, and even Turkey had a decent record in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of way.

Then you are factually incorrect.

I've had to argue this again, and once more, people refuse facts, so, I'll just cite that again, here is the list of countries by Muslim population and their laws on LGBT:

You cite, Saudi Arabia, a country that mutilates people for being gay,
Iran, Yemen, Sudan, are countries where you are killed if you are found to be gay.

To say "It's illegal" is an insult, frankly. And seriously under plays just exactly what's going on here. It's exterminated. It's the systematic killing of anyone who is homosexual.

Also, you cite Jordan and Turkey.

Jordan it is legal to discriminate and abuse homosexuals as much as you like, and the vast majority of the population supports this. 97% of the population believe homosexuality is unacceptable. That's not really "Frowned upon". Only in 2013 was killing your family member as an act of honour due to them being homosexual was made illegal. I'm sure they've flipped completely in 4 years.

If a Jordanian immigrant was to vote upon something like LGBT people being able to marry, how do you think 97% of them would vote? I'm sorry, but, I'm not willing to push back my rights just so we can have more people of a different race in the country.

Turkey, was getting there, but, as you say, that situation is in flux these days. All I can say is that even before what's going on with Erodan, violence against LGBT people was rife and living conditions for LGBT people are significantly lower than the general population, due to hatred and intolerance from local communities.

I think it's more like apathy vs. extremism. Since narrative has been hijacked by the extremists, "normal" people that don't necessiraly want to stomp every political opponent in the dirt don't feel like they belong in political discourse.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Oh come on. You might not have wanted Clinton to win, but there were very many people who had good reasons to want her to.

Maybe, for example, Trump wanting to destroy the ACA will make "the establishment" look bad or whatever, but people worried about suffering and dying without it probably weren't eager to vote themselves into martyrdom.

The Lunatic:
Snipples

Right, ok...so you acquaint a country's laws with all their civilians opinions and activities? If that's the case, then why are there so many weed smokers and various other 'criminals' unable to follow law then? Why would they want to leave a country who's laws they fully believe in anyway? And really...polls? Didn't they predict an almost certain Clinton presidency? Questionnaires are easily manipulated to get the results the author desires. That much is quite documented. But whatever reinforces the fear.

Zontar:
Snip

You don't even read what you wrote, do you?

Then again, if XKCD is to be believed, most people don't...

The Lunatic:

Xsjadoblayde:
Is it fun making sweeping generalisations? Living in a black and white world where everything is so simple? Interesting tactic of conveniently diluting nuance to claim hypocrisy, but certainly not new. In fact, it seems to be the only tactic left these days. Kinda makes you think.

Are you seriously telling me that the vast majority of the Middle East isn't pretty strongly against LGBT rights?

I very much doubt he's supporting immigration from the Middle East exclusively.

The Lunatic:

erttheking:
Because they're not the ones that are actively suppressing their right to vote. So is that deflection an admittance that Trump doesn't give a crap about the LGBT community? Because that's what it looks like.

Well, to be fair, if you support the importation of people who're anti-LGBT and likely to harm those within that community, you yourself are pretty anti-LGBT by association.

Generally, people don't like being sacrificed to appease the gods of diversity, LGBT or otherwise.

Likely to harm those within the community? Oh please, point out the part where I said that I was ok with importing violent people.

Also, why is it every time the concern about keeping people out who are LGBT we look at Muslims and no one else? You love pulling up numbers about viewpoints, have you seen what South American Christians believe? Try getting them barred from entry into the United States 90% of the people who don't want Muslims in (admittedly probably not you) would throw a bitch fit.

erttheking:
Likely to harm those within the community? Oh please, point out the part where I said that I was ok with importing violent people.

Also, why is it every time the concern about keeping people out who are LGBT we look at Muslims and no one else? You love pulling up numbers about viewpoints, have you seen what South American Christians believe? Try getting them barred from entry into the United States 90% of the people who don't want Muslims in (admittedly probably not you) would throw a bitch fit.

Because I'm European.

I can only really speak from my experience with Muslim immigrants in the UK. Broadly speaking, the majority I've met are extremely anti-LGBT to point of threatening violence if anyone revealed themselves to be. If you support the immigration of these people, then yeah, you're okay with importing violent people.

Russia would be a good example of another country that holds anti-LGBT and isn't primarily Muslim. And, I'd support limited immigration from that country.

As I've said before, don't believe in a blanket ban, but, pretty heavy vetting for potentially harmful affects on culture and social progress we've made.

Xsjadoblayde:

Right, ok...so you acquaint a country's laws with all their civilians opinions and activities? If that's the case, then why are there so many weed smokers and various other 'criminals' unable to follow law then? Why would they want to leave a country who's laws they fully believe in anyway? And really...polls? Didn't they predict an almost certain Clinton presidency? Questionnaires are easily manipulated to get the results the author desires. That much is quite documented. But whatever reinforces the fear.

Well, I am gay. So, knowing which countries I can go to without getting killed is... Pretty important, yeah.

I think it's... Very off to compare weed smoking to killing people for being gay.

Also, what is sufficient proof? You're claiming that religion, culture, laws, opinion polls and so on aren't valid evidence that these people have hatred towards LGBT people, but, you're not saying what you believe to be a valid fact.

The Lunatic:
Snip

And here in the US, there have been plenty of Muslims that have integrated peacefully. Christ, two of my co-workers are Lebanese twins, and they're the sweetest people I've ever met (really wish they read more books, but that's just my budding English teacher speaking)

And I don't support just letting in everyone that wants to come in, nor do I support letting in violent people not something you seemed to acknowledge in your original post. The thing is, immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes than natives, so it's not as big of an issue as people make it out to be.

And tell me something, you may do it, but how many other people actually support that? No where near enough for it to actually happen I can't help but feel.

Ya know, if LGBT people were actually protected by our government, then we would not have to worry if any immigrants are anti-LGBT.

The Lunatic:

Well, I am gay. So, knowing which countries I can go to without getting killed is... Pretty important, yeah.

I think it's... Very off to compare weed smoking to killing people for being gay.

Also, what is sufficient proof? You're claiming that religion, culture, laws, opinion polls and so on aren't valid evidence that these people have hatred towards LGBT people, but, you're not saying what you believe to be a valid fact.

Well I guess it would be off to pick one mild criminal activity and put it beside state murder, yes. It's lucky I didn't do that then. What you are doing is sweeping a whole lot of generalisations based on state laws. It's logical to be afraid of these issues, but to generalise based on what you are utilising is no different than saying every American citizen is like Donald trump. I suggest a good old frolic in the outdoors with your fellow human. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Edit: I didn't think it would be necessary to bring it up, but fuck it...I am friends with a few Muslims (locally) who have absolutely no problems with homosexuality or various other 'controversial' issues. Their parents are bout the same as any family though, they have their own prejudices. But nothing anywhere close to the disturbing nationalist people I've dealt with. It's time people started socialising properly.

erttheking:
And here in the US, there have been plenty of Muslims that have integrated peacefully. Christ, two of my co-workers are Lebanese twins, and they're the sweetest people I've ever met (really wish they read more books, but that's just my budding English teacher speaking)

And I don't support just letting in everyone that wants to come in, nor do I support letting in violent people not something you seemed to acknowledge in your original post. The thing is, immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes than natives, so it's not as big of an issue as people make it out to be.

All I can really say is that it seems to me that the situation with Muslims in Europe and America is a very different one.

Which, is part of the reason I find it rather frustrating when Americans support Muslim immigration in Europe, despite the situation being very different and them not being aware of just how much so.

Every crime statistic I have for Europe indicates that Immigrants account for significantly more of the criminal population than natives. So, that doesn't appear to be the case for Europe at least.

Saelune:
Ya know, if LGBT people were actually protected by our government, then we would not have to worry if any immigrants are anti-LGBT.

And who do you think votes for, or for that matter, against those laws?

Do you want to go back to struggling to get rights because we have a foreign culture unified against it?

Xsjadoblayde:
Well I guess it would be off to pick one mild criminal activity and put it beside state murder, yes. It's lucky I didn't do that then. What you are doing is sweeping a whole lot of generalisations based on state laws. It's logical to be afraid of these issues, but to generalise based on what you are utilising is no different than saying every American citizen is like Donald trump. I suggest a good old frolic in the outdoors with your fellow human. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Ah, so, you're saying we should ignore those pesky things called facts, based on cultural precedents, opinion polls, laws, religious guidelines and all that stuff and instead just believe that humans are all friendly and hateful cultures don't exist.

What did I say about not being naive?

@The_Lunatic: The same people who want to keep immigrants out are the ones fighting against LGBT rights.

The Lunatic:

Ah, so, you're saying we should ignore those pesky things called facts, based on cultural precedents, opinion polls, laws, religious guidelines and all that stuff and instead just believe that humans are all friendly and hateful cultures don't exist.

What did I say about not being naive?

If you could just brandish those distressing facts to all the Muslims currently living peacefully in the UK, I'm sure they'd be happy to give in to their violent nature. Did you know that males maintain the highest recorded level of crime? So we should act accordingly and assume every male is a criminal. I'll go first, I don't care.

The Lunatic:
Snip

Except I'm pretty sure there are Muslims living peacefully in Europe. You know. The ones that aren't treated like second class citizens.

You know, I can't help but look around here and find that it's not all "Americans are pro, Europoeans are anti" I see plenty of Europeans that are pro, so your comment about Americans doesn't do much to impact my opinion.

Can I get a source on that one? Also, what Xsjadoblayde said. The majority of all violent crimes are committed by men, yet I don't see anyone suggesting that we do anything about limited male access to the country.

Saelune:
@The_Lunatic: The same people who want to keep immigrants out are the ones fighting against LGBT rights.

Well, I'm clearly not against LGBT rights, and I think we should limit immigration, so, I mean, consider me candidate 1 for why this is incorrect.

Xsjadoblayde:
If you could just brandish those distressing facts to all the Muslims currently living peacefully in the UK, I'm sure they'd be happy to give in to their violent nature. Did you know that males maintain the highest recorded level of crime? So we should act accordingly and assume every male is a criminal. I'll go first, I don't care.

False equivalence. More likely to commit crime is not the same as 97% likely to deem homosexuality unacceptable.
Though, for what it's worth, I do agree that if you immigrate to a country, and commit crime, you should be deported, and that would more likely affect men.

erttheking:
Except I'm pretty sure there are Muslims living peacefully in Europe. You know. The ones that aren't treated like second class citizens.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
Sure, they're the minority though.

erttheking:

You know, I can't help but look around here and find that it's not all "Americans are pro, Europoeans are anti" I see plenty of Europeans that are pro, so your comment about Americans doesn't do much to impact my opinion.

Yes, there are plenty of naive people across the globe, fortunately people are starting to realise what a threat Islam represents to western values.

erttheking:
Can I get a source on that one? Also, what Xsjadoblayde said. The majority of all violent crimes are committed by men, yet I don't see anyone suggesting that we do anything about limited male access to the country.

83% of crimes are committed by individuals of Danish origin (88.4% of the total population), 3% by those of non-Danish Western descent and 14% by individuals of non-Western descent.
http://www.dst.dk/Site/Dst/Udgivelser/GetPubFile.aspx?id=20703&sid=indv2015

24% of rapes are estimated to have been committed by individuals with foreign surnames in Finland.
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/156334/Katsauksia_4_Rikollisuustilanne_2014_2015.pdf

Native Dutch - 37%; Moroccans - 14%; Unknown origin - 14%; "other non-Westerners" - 9%; Turkish - 8%; Surinamese - 7%; Antillean - 7%; and "other Westerners" - 4%.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130208101230/http://www.nisnews.nl/public/180309_1.htm

152 rapes in which the perpetrator could be identified, 45.8% were of African, Middle Eastern or Asian origin while 54.2% were of Norwegian, other European or American origin. In the cases of "assault rape", i.e. rape aggravated by physical violence, a category that included 6 of the 152 cases and 5 of the 131 identified individuals, the 5 identified individuals were of African, Middle Eastern or Asian origin. In the cases of assault rape where the individual responsible was not identified and the police relied on the description provided by the victim, 8 of the perpetrators were of African/dark-skinned appearance, 4 were Western/light/Nordic and 4 had an Asian appearance.
https://www.politi.no/oslo/aktuelt/nyhetsarkiv/2011_05/Nyhet_9976.xml

70% of all crimes were committed by Spaniards and 30% by foreigners. Foreigners make up 15% of the population.
http://www.tercerainformacion.es/antigua/spip.php?article10906

Immigrants from Angola, Nigeria and Algeria had a crime rate of above 600% of that of Swiss population.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Neue-Statistik-Tamilen-sind-krimineller-als-ExJugoslawen/story/27784193

Also, as I said to Xsjado, anyone who supports deporting people who commit crime after immigrating (A fairly large overlap with people who want reduce immigration) are supporting lower male immigration, as that would affect men mostly.

@The_Lunatic: You arent American. And Milo exists too. But he doesnt represent all of LGBT, nor does he justify the abuse of LGBT that the right brings. That he is a gay Uncle Tom doesnt deflect the consistent bigotry against LGBT from the right.

Saelune:
@The_Lunatic: You arent American. And Milo exists too. But he doesnt represent all of LGBT, nor does he justify the abuse of LGBT that the right brings. That he is a gay Uncle Tom doesnt deflect the consistent bigotry against LGBT from the right.

Doesn't excuse "The Left" sacrificing LGBT people to bigotted Muslims in order to virtue signal either.

Saelune:
People think "extremism" is automatically bad. Ending slavery was rather extreme though.

Is it though? If I remember my history right, abolishing slavery was already done in Europe (that had strong cultural ties to the USA) and Mexico as well as some American states. The idea was mainstream in itself. I personally see Extremism as campaigning to violently change a system, either advocating literal violence or hurting the common rights of people in it without giving the change a check if it actually work.

So for example, wanting to end slavery in Saudi Arabia through dialogue is not extremism. Advocating to war with Saudi Arabia to end slavery there can be called extreme.

The Lunatic:

Saelune:
@The_Lunatic: The same people who want to keep immigrants out are the ones fighting against LGBT rights.

Well, I'm clearly not against LGBT rights, and I think we should limit immigration, so, I mean, consider me candidate 1 for why this is incorrect.

Xsjadoblayde:
If you could just brandish those distressing facts to all the Muslims currently living peacefully in the UK, I'm sure they'd be happy to give in to their violent nature. Did you know that males maintain the highest recorded level of crime? So we should act accordingly and assume every male is a criminal. I'll go first, I don't care.

False equivalence. More likely to commit crime is not the same as 97% likely to deem homosexuality unacceptable.
Though, for what it's worth, I do agree that if you immigrate to a country, and commit crime, you should be deported, and that would more likely affect men.

erttheking:
Except I'm pretty sure there are Muslims living peacefully in Europe. You know. The ones that aren't treated like second class citizens.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
Sure, they're the minority though.

erttheking:

You know, I can't help but look around here and find that it's not all "Americans are pro, Europoeans are anti" I see plenty of Europeans that are pro, so your comment about Americans doesn't do much to impact my opinion.

Yes, there are plenty of naive people across the globe, fortunately people are starting to realise what a threat Islam represents to western values.

erttheking:
Can I get a source on that one? Also, what Xsjadoblayde said. The majority of all violent crimes are committed by men, yet I don't see anyone suggesting that we do anything about limited male access to the country.

83% of crimes are committed by individuals of Danish origin (88.4% of the total population), 3% by those of non-Danish Western descent and 14% by individuals of non-Western descent.
http://www.dst.dk/Site/Dst/Udgivelser/GetPubFile.aspx?id=20703&sid=indv2015

24% of rapes are estimated to have been committed by individuals with foreign surnames in Finland.
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/156334/Katsauksia_4_Rikollisuustilanne_2014_2015.pdf

Native Dutch - 37%; Moroccans - 14%; Unknown origin - 14%; "other non-Westerners" - 9%; Turkish - 8%; Surinamese - 7%; Antillean - 7%; and "other Westerners" - 4%.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130208101230/http://www.nisnews.nl/public/180309_1.htm

152 rapes in which the perpetrator could be identified, 45.8% were of African, Middle Eastern or Asian origin while 54.2% were of Norwegian, other European or American origin. In the cases of "assault rape", i.e. rape aggravated by physical violence, a category that included 6 of the 152 cases and 5 of the 131 identified individuals, the 5 identified individuals were of African, Middle Eastern or Asian origin. In the cases of assault rape where the individual responsible was not identified and the police relied on the description provided by the victim, 8 of the perpetrators were of African/dark-skinned appearance, 4 were Western/light/Nordic and 4 had an Asian appearance.
https://www.politi.no/oslo/aktuelt/nyhetsarkiv/2011_05/Nyhet_9976.xml

70% of all crimes were committed by Spaniards and 30% by foreigners. Foreigners make up 15% of the population.
http://www.tercerainformacion.es/antigua/spip.php?article10906

Immigrants from Angola, Nigeria and Algeria had a crime rate of above 600% of that of Swiss population.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Neue-Statistik-Tamilen-sind-krimineller-als-ExJugoslawen/story/27784193

Also, as I said to Xsjado, anyone who supports deporting people who commit crime after immigrating (A fairly large overlap with people who want reduce immigration) are supporting lower male immigration, as that would affect men mostly.

We've been over this before. If you want to bar people for having bad views about the LGBT community, you'd have to ban half the United States. Doubly so with the south.

Western values, what the hell does that even mean? Tell me what you think it means and I'll show you a bunch of westerners who don't care about them.

I should've been more clear. Immigrants who are allowed to intergratd properly commit less crime. Hard to do when the right hates your existence. Note the second class citizen part t of my argument. And you're focusing on back alley stranger rape, which is not even ten percent of rapes. And can I get stats from countries that don't have world record low crime rates? What about your country, plenty of violient crime there. And you're not ok with leaving men out. You're ok with leaving Muslim men out. There's still an element of the other there.

EDIT and your stats were for specific crimes, but not overall crimes for half of the countries. Just saying

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

You voted for Trump.

No, I didn't.

You know, this exchange made me want to make a thread called "Why can't the Left get along?". The Right and the Far-right seem to be able to work together (to disastrous consequences), but in France, as in the UK and the US the Lefts will fight each other until the boat sinks.

In the 2002 French Election Chirac only got to the Second round because there were eight different left parties, and live we have the Core Democrats vs the Sanders Followers (whom I affectionately nickname, the long lost American Socialists).

The Lunatic:

Saelune:
@The_Lunatic: You arent American. And Milo exists too. But he doesnt represent all of LGBT, nor does he justify the abuse of LGBT that the right brings. That he is a gay Uncle Tom doesnt deflect the consistent bigotry against LGBT from the right.

Doesn't excuse "The Left" sacrificing LGBT people to bigotted Muslims in order to virtue signal either.

Reminds me how Le Pen and her followers was all about how bigoted the Muslims were, until they started talking about stopping gay marriage, tearing separation of church and state and other such hypocritical measures.

I say this because I rarely if ever trust the motivations of the far-right. They can talk about how reasonable they are, which only lasts until they go rabid at a debate or do something like praise Pinochet for "removing" socialists. For example, you mentioned afterwards about immigrant crime statistics which is worrying, but with the FN that eventually led to calls of throwing "all of them out", including those who bad been in France for decades.

Sort of hard to take any argument with sincerity, and as the far-right is so fond of accusing the left of "calling everyone nazis", the same could be said that they certainly haven't helped their image by having some vocal nazis in their midst.

Thaluikhain:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
As made clear this election, people are quite capable of voting against their own self-interest.

Yep. About 98% of votes cast in the general were against self-interest.

Oh come on. You might not have wanted Clinton to win, but there were very many people who had good reasons to want her to.

Maybe, for example, Trump wanting to destroy the ACA will make "the establishment" look bad or whatever, but people worried about suffering and dying without it probably weren't eager to vote themselves into martyrdom.

Those same people probably weren't eager to vote themselves a president who would continue Obama's legacy of offering "grand bargains" which cut social security and other social services in order to "solve" the drummed up problem of our national debt. Also, the AHCA isn't law.

inu-kun:

Saelune:
People think "extremism" is automatically bad. Ending slavery was rather extreme though.

Is it though? If I remember my history right, abolishing slavery was already done in Europe (that had strong cultural ties to the USA) and Mexico as well as some American states. The idea was mainstream in itself. I personally see Extremism as campaigning to violently change a system, either advocating literal violence or hurting the common rights of people in it without giving the change a check if it actually work.

So for example, wanting to end slavery in Saudi Arabia through dialogue is not extremism. Advocating to war with Saudi Arabia to end slavery there can be called extreme.

Not like slavery was ended with a few kind words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

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