Jimquisition: The Positive Side to Punching Nuns

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DVS BSTrD:

Vrach:

DVS BSTrD:
Well I never said there wasn't sexuality in Hitman, but this about context. As you said, that scene takes place at a RAVE: she's wearing a costume to a party. It can at least be justified as a disguise. These "nuns" wear fetish clothing simply to go out and kill someone. What part of shooting RPGs and assault rifles in a parking-lot require fishnet stockings? I've certainly got nothing against scantily clad women in video games (as much as I'd like to ;) but this just tasteless exploitation.

Yeah, it's a fair point, I'll give you that. But it still doesn't strike me as somehow outside the scope of what the series has done so far. I mean really think about the groups behind those rave parties. If one of those groups sent an assassin after you and it was a leather/fishnet clad woman, would you really be surprised? Personally, I wouldn't. From the feeling I've got of the series, those groups dress like that, it's what they're into, whether they're at a rave or going out for a kill.

Well then let's look at it from a professional point of view.

-Stripping to reveal leather lingerie, again out in the open.(destroys the point of having a disguise, nonfunctional clothing provides no discernible assets, done purely for contrast as if for an audience)

You got that right! Ever tried to run in latex clothing? It ain't made for economy of movement (the constrictive nature being part of the "fun") and you get real hot, real fast.
Long story short, got chased down the street and called a fag by a group of guys on my way to a goth club because of my clothes (and I'm straight). They didn't catch me but bloody hell did I wish I was wearing looser fitting clothes at the time. They tear real easy too. If I had of got them caught on something I'd have been sans pants very quickly.

I find these types of depates interesting but ultimatly pointless. Nothing seems to change.

My personal take on the situation is that censorship is evil in all shapes or forms and political correctess has caused more problems than it has solved.

Having said that we do need a well thought out SENSIBLE and enforced ratings system.Fine mummy clueless a shit load of money when she buys baby sonofabitch the latest survival horror. Allow these games to be made yes discuss the issues raised whatever they may be.

But make it clear you know exactly what your buying for yourself (or your kid who shouldent get that game in the first place) and if you dont like it just dont buy it. If enough people dont buy it they wont make anymore if its that bad.

P.S. FFS STOP SCREAMING BOYCOT WHILE REACHING FOR YOUR CREDIT CARD. This helps no one and only makes games look like idiots that will put up with any old crap.

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

Oh man, i want these glasses. Do they take pictures too?

btt.
Nice episode, i`m glad for todays internet shitstorms. They`re entertaining and sometimes you learn a thing or two.
I have no problem with the trailer at all. My only real dislike was, that it looks more like Saints Row the third than hitman to me.
After reading a few discussion i got the point of people hating the fact that hitman murders sexualized women in this trailer. It was the combination of both, not watching a man killing women.
It still doesn`t bother me much but i got this point. I would love to see a reversed trailer of this. This would be awesome.

Grim looking female killer vs Chippendale monks

I see the problem with them being over-sexualised, but there's nothing wrong with violence against women. They were going to KILL him. Do you expect him to stand aside and say "It's okay, I don't hit women" as they brutally murder him? The same goes with games like Street Fighter. It's a fighting competition, if those women didn't want to be hit they shouldn't enter in the first place.

I don't really care for people being so sensitive over these kinda things because clearly it is not a game marketed for these people.

Maybe we should criticise angry music that has harsh words as well for not conforming to every ones standards?

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

depends. do you think its good hes hitting and assulting them cause they're women, or cause theyre an evil assassination group?

OT: I have a bit of a white knight complex (and its gotten me into trouble before) but even looking at that trailer, Im not really bothered. at first I kinda missed the fact they were an assassination group, so i had to watch the trailer again and make sure this wasnt another postal 2 or something, but once I caught it, it didnt really bother me.

... though I do think that in an age where everyone wants to be equal we still see minority groups either wanting or getting an underserved special treatment (such as this is wrong to assault women [which it is, but this isnt cause theyre women, they just happen to be women] despite the circumstance, but reverse the scenario and there wouldnt be an issue) it still feels like we're not making as much head way or the head way we are making feels sorta moot.

EDIT: and as for the overly sexualized thing I dont really feel weird about it cause this is the staple of this type of game, and I dont expect Hitman to be the trend setter in whats "right". Just like I wouldnt expect COD to be the trend setter in bright colourful fun shooter gaming.

Mylinkay Asdara:

Father Time:

Mylinkay Asdara:

Or! They ARE killer assassin types, but apparently they let their pimp dress them that morning and thus the visuals convey a message of yes, women can be killers, but only in a hyper-sexualized context,

This is why people roll their eyes at these types of complaints.

This trailer is not making any kind of statement about women. Just because all women in a movie or whatever do X doesn't mean it's trying to say 'All women do X'.

Especially when it's a 2-odd minute trailer that's not meant to give away too much.

You are essentially crafting straw men.

Nice selective quotation from several pages back there. Did you even read the part where I mentioned that I am not complaining and don't, in fact, care all that much about it? Just curious.

Actually no I was skimming because I didn't have a lot of time. Sorry.

Edit: While I am here...

Mylinkay Asdara:

Father Time:
One more thing. Game makers, we have access to the internet and all the free hardcore porn that comes with it. Please think about that before trying to appeal to us with people in skimpy outfits. That is all.

That's a brilliant observation. Plenty of porn to go around now-a-days and therefore little need for video games to seek to provide the 'fan service' to young male players.

That and well women in leather can't compete with porn.

If you want to go for sexy pandering in a game IMO, you either need to have some subtlety or go all in (nudity etc.).

Yes I'm fully aware I sound like a 14 year old in that paragraph, but it's still true.

Father Time:

Mylinkay Asdara:

Father Time:

This is why people roll their eyes at these types of complaints.

This trailer is not making any kind of statement about women. Just because all women in a movie or whatever do X doesn't mean it's trying to say 'All women do X'.

Especially when it's a 2-odd minute trailer that's not meant to give away too much.

You are essentially crafting straw men.

Nice selective quotation from several pages back there. Did you even read the part where I mentioned that I am not complaining and don't, in fact, care all that much about it? Just curious.

Actually no I was skimming because I didn't have a lot of time. Sorry.

Edit: While I am here...

Mylinkay Asdara:

Father Time:
One more thing. Game makers, we have access to the internet and all the free hardcore porn that comes with it. Please think about that before trying to appeal to us with people in skimpy outfits. That is all.

That's a brilliant observation. Plenty of porn to go around now-a-days and therefore little need for video games to seek to provide the 'fan service' to young male players.

That and well women in leather can't compete with porn.

If you want to go for sexy pandering in a game IMO, you either need to have some subtlety or go all in (nudity etc.).

Yes I'm fully aware I sound like a 14 year old in that paragraph, but it's still true.

I'll just screw this up if I try to separate the quotes. First part - no problem. I was using hyperbole and if that's the part that caught your eye at least I take comfort in the fact I was doing something right ^.~ Second part - agreed. Which is a little bit why the 'sexy ladies fighting' seems a bit more ridiculous than it did in years past in video games. Once upon a time a young lad had very few options to view arousing female figures - television wasn't as racy, pornography came in video and print forms that had to be pilfered from fathers, older brothers, and or the like, and they were the largest portion of the gaming audience so... it made SOME sense for game companies to put a little sexy in there. Things have changed. Most of those things I just listed have changed, and perhaps - just perhaps! - it is time for the game makers to change their methods as well. Just saying.

I think if anyone was offended by the trailer, it's because they (the assassins) *looked like* oversexualized *nuns*; had this trailer been shown out of context, a frag-ton of people would be offended.

Nuns and sex DO NOT MIX.

CAPTCHA of the day: "upper crust".

The problem Jim is that there are certain things that are legitimate social issues, and those that are not. What we're seeing with things like the "Hitman" trailer is people making noise and trying to get attention simply for the sake of making noise and trying to get attention. The complaints about that trailer don't even have a consistant point.

The complaint about the trailer is that it shows violence against women, women who are wearing sexy outfits. The problem is that when you look at the entire issue you can't argue against what your seeing there without being a massive sexist, and effectively hamstringing any point you set out to make to begin with.

Women have spent decades fighting against the whole idea that they need to be sheltered, protected, and put up on pedestels, and can't even be shown doing anything violent or action packed. Indeed, ironically, this went along with ideas that women should always be demure and dressed conservatively, a lot of the first works of feminism were about women doing exciting things, wearing sexy outfits, and otherwise not conforming to that traditional stereotype.

Today we've seen a lot of "action girls" dressing up for combat, throwing and taking punches, and doing all of the same crap that guys have been doing over the years. Fundementally what we're seeing in this trailer is simply a bunch of "action girls" portrayed as the bad guys. Unlike a lot of politically correct works, where inevitably the director arranges for the female bad guy(s) to have a cat fight with other female characters, it was pretty much played straight and the protaganist just waded in and treated the gun toting female baddies like they would anyone else. If anything it's quite empowering, and shows women being treated as equals. It's fundementally no differant than some female protaganist doing the same exact thing to a bunch of dudes, wehich we've ALSO seen, and a lot of those dudes might very well be wearing outlandish costumes, and showing off unusually well developed muscles which are very similar to what we're seeing here with the builds of our lady assasins and their choice of costume... most of which are basically dressed like "The Black Widow" under their habits.

Given Jim's mention of video games fighting games, I'll also mention that the physically idealized women IN those games are treated like the guys are, sure they can get beaten up and brutalized, but are also capable of doing the same thing in return. The idea here within the fantasy is them being able to do the same exact things that they guys are doing, with gender more or less being tossed out the window along with things like comparitive height and weight (in a fighting game a Midget can take down a Giant, totally at odds with things like "weight classes" and why they exist). I mean sure, you might beat up Ivy Valentine, but if you DON'T do it what is she going to do to you? She's fully capable of winning (and has probably stomped us all), and what's more is conceptually wandering the world intentionally picking fights with people (for reasons loosely explained by the game's lore and her backround... just like all the other characters).

At any rate, those who have a problem with this trailer are basically argueing that women should be portrayed a demure, submissive, conservative. They should be put up on platforms and sheltered from everything for their own good. After all it's the whole issue of women running around doing all of this crap in fantasy that raises questions like this. If you can have a girl running around with guns trying to kill people (as the good guy or bad guy) it only makes sense that others are going to try and do the same thing back when they object.

Fundementally there is nothing wrong with that whole scene, Hitman has always been kind of over the top with some wild stuff going on in the backround. It has a stealth focus, but 47 is also a badarse in a straight fight. Right here we've got a bunch of bad girls in a similar vein to an evil "Charlie's Angels" or Tarintino's "Deadly Viper Assasin Squad". They are in the process of wrecking havoc with military scale weapons, when Agent 47 intervenes, what is he supposed to do say "oh gee, it's a bunch of girls so it's okay if they do that?".

Really the only way you can object to this in a violence perspective is to say that women shouldn't be involved in violence at all, and that's your sexism right there.

I'd agree with Jim's point about alternative viewpoints, and the growing nature of video games, but the thing is that you DO have to show some degree of common sense, if you give everyone this kind of attention, it just means more and more people with increasingly less valid opinions, are going to sound off to get their five minutes of fame as well.

What's more, by taking stuff like this seriously in the gaming media it hurts the industry as a whole, the industry is very much an "all or nothing" creature. You just not going to see games with over the top premises where things like this go on, and increasingly fewer and fewer female heroes and villains because of the industry becoming concerned about having
them subjected to violence.

Now granted the kind of over the top action genere that leads to things like scantily clad assasins in nun costume... your basic high camp, is not for everyone. Attacking it as some kind of affront to feminism, and giving that point of view attention when it doesn't hold up to examination very well is detrimental to pretty much everyone, since it's doubtful that the people bringing the complaints even believe what they are saying given how self-contridictory it happens to be.

If anything treating your "action girls" like pretty much anyone else in one of these games, which is what happened in the Hitman trailer, is actually a huge victory for feminism when you get down to it. The girls are all obviously girls and dress and act quite feminine as opposed to being pseudo-men who are women only by technicality, they act professionally within the context of the setting and the high camp of the whole set up, and they neither ask for, or receive quarter. As a bunch of knock down bad guys, they get demolished by the hero like we'd expect from this kind of cinematic.

Oh and as far as the whole "punch her in the stomach" thing, understand it's fantasy. When we're dealing with this kind of thing we're ignoring gender differances and how improbable these situations are to begin with. Sure, in real life there are a lot of concerns over doing something like that, but in the context of a video game she's being treated just like anyone else. I'll also be honest in saying that in some of these situations I really wouldn't give a crap (nor should anyone). If Ivy Valentine seemingly wants you dead, or you have a bunch of girls with guns trying to murder you, your going to fight back and do whatever it takes. Sure Agent 47 could have been a gentleman about it and the whole scene could have been re-done to show special consideration, but arguably that would be contrary to the whole idea of women being presented equally in these things. The lady thugs were treated like any other thugs in an action production....

Nurb:
If those woman didn't want to get hit they shouldn't be murderous assassins. no one seems to care they were about to kill somebody right?

Certain debates, like this one are founded in an antiquated double-standard. Violence against women regardless of context automatically means it's wrong. If this "outrage" is allowed to go unchallenged, then we're going to see an even more focused grouped, politically correct, and watered down corporate gaming experience than we have already. Jim's right this wasn't talked about years ago, because years ago, gamers knew that a woman in fighting game was just as deadly as a man in a fighting game, and just as shirtless.

Young gamers today seem to be much more conservative, over-sensitive, and dare I say "wimpy" compared to the days when we had to defend games like Doom from the soccer moms and politicians who were talking like gamers are now!

People just love to be outraged and having others hear just how outraged they are

I agree with most of what I'm quoting here, but on the other hand: I am REALLY glad this debate is at least happening, because trying to explain to my wife why every single female in the new Mortal Kombat looked like she'd just stepped off of a Renn Faire porn shoot (or in Sonya's case: a bootcamp one) was not a great deal of fun for me and I was embarrassed about it even before that. And don't give me the crap about the juxtaposition of Mileena's body VS her face cause EVERY. SINGLE. FEMALE dresses like a skank in that game and that sucks. Obviously this is more far-reaching than that, but that was where it struck me most recently.

As for the what I agree with: I actually think Jim fell into the same trap as you're mentioning (and frankly as Jon Stewart fell into talking about MK on the Daily Show). The women aren't "sexualized then punched in the stomach," they're "sexualized and then punching YOU in the stomach." I hate how fighting game women (and even these nuns) are somehow portrayed as helpless victims when, in fact, they're absolutely capable and in the case of fighting games on equal footing. I think we just need to curtail all this weird, overt sexualization, but to say that Chun-Li is somehow a "victim" is incredibly disrespectful to that character and to female characters across gaming.
Edit: And I don't think gamers of today are "wimpy," I think they're more socially aware. I think they tend to overreact to certain things, and of course the white-knighters are JUST as sexist as their counterparts, but overall I like it. I don't need a 13-year-old's idea of a sex fantasy to get me to buy a game, it cheapens the industry and frankly it cheapens the medium.

I think it would be more funny if it weren't so sad.

It's basically Lollipop Chainsaw. No different, lots of fanservice and entirely impossible to take seriously even for a moment. I don't know if Hitman is supposed to be taken even remotely seriously, but it if was, they failed a lot. You know, I don't mind if people sexualize female fictional characters sometimes. Rule 34 will always exist and all that. Slash fiction is a beautiful thing.

But when the gaming industry just does this over and over and over and over again. There comes a time when it's okay, "okay, just stop for a while, please." It's sad, every time I think I'm getting a relatable female character in a video game for a change, the outfit comes off and she's another stereotypical fanservice girl who wears stripperiffic clothes and has no personality. It's really disappointing.

I want to see more female characters in games, not less. And having less female characters would be a step backwards. But I would like more female character, and less cheesy fanservice. Can I please have more of both, more unsexualized females, and more females in general?

And my sexualized, I think some people don't realize what the term means. I don't mean like, less women with a sexuality. God, I'd like to see more of that. Females with a realistic sexuality that delves into their own sexuality as a part of why they are as complete human being or character or whatever. Most people have a sexuality. What I and the term mean is ENOUGH WITH THE BUTT CAMERA ANGLES. ENOUGH WITH THE BOOB CAMERA ANGLES. JUST STOP FOR FIVE SECONDS. NO.

That quick slip of Willem DaFoe and a shrimp/prawn reminded me Podtoid isn't up yet :(

balberoy:
This is a contradiction.
People want that all are equal,
if all are equal then it doesn't matter.
Why can men be killed in the thousand but when women die its wrong?

The people who are going apeshit over this trailer go crazy cause
women are killed? They should get anfry bacause "anyone" not just woman die.

They should hate all violance, not this.
Actually what they do is racism in another way.

Just think of the movie "300".
How those warriors get killed. And how graphic they showed this.
Where is the difference?

This reminds of the southpark episode with the flag.
The children don't get the problem cause they do not know
what racism means.

image
It isn't that women are killed. It is that they are needlessly sexualized while they are killed. To quote myself:

Point is, we will never see a trailer of a bunch of male assassins in tight shorts with no shirts on getting murdered while the camera does close ups of their pecks and asses.

Which is part of the problem.

I think that the problem with this trailer is the tone of it. On one hand, it's trying to be a homage to B exploitation movies, while on the other hand, it's trying to be dead serious and very dramatic. If it had gone all the way with either one of those, the intent of the trailer would've been clear, and perhaps more people would've understood what it was trying to do.

night_tiger9:
I care that they are dressed up as nuns, mostly because it offends me and what I believe in. Never saw the video before this, but I was appalled and sickened by it, personally.

Just my two-cents.

I was appalled that you were appalled. I felt the trailer was very well done and showed just how far the wife of a deceased drug lord will go in getting revenge on the man that killed her husband in front of her and to make that point in an artistic way.

But then you were probably referencing some other make believe thing like religion.....right? Something that gives you the supreme right to take all the moral high ground in every situation regardless of how the thing that shapes your life came into being as violent as it was. Ya, there is that.

I just watched the trailer... apparently I missed the whole controversy train here, but I don't see what the big deal is. I do see some things that COULD offend, but I am not offended by any of them to an extent where I'd bother commenting on it in and of itself. For example:

  • Violence against women:
    I'm against all real violence that the involved parties did not consent to (martial arts are violent, but fine, for instance). I'm for fictional violence against any party for any reason. Men, women, children, animals, aliens, objects, brutalize any and all of them as much as you like. Heck, if they try to murder you I'd be upset if I wasn't allowed to retaliate against women in a game.
  • Sexualization/objectification of women:
    it doesn't upset me, but I don't much care for it either. I play Hitman for the thrill of stealthy and clever infiltration, assassination, and combat pragmatism. These non-nuns seem out of character for the series, and I simply hope that the game will not significantly revolve around them or anything like them. If every level is this, count me out. If there's one level that has these attacking you, then I'll just live with it.
  • Morality police trying to control your thoughts:
    I'm okay with people trying to control what I get to watch, as long as they aren't allowed to succeed. I personally don't see this trailer as an artistic statement that should be vigorously defended, simply as a clumsy attempt at standing out in an ever more extreme soup of advertising glop. The irony of it not standing out at all because it tries so hard makes it doubly pathetic, but the bottom line is, if it offends someone then I'm glad they speak up. I feel no reason to agree with them but I think they should rage against it as much as they want until the next thing comes along that they dislike. And if someone wants to boycott the game over this, then that's fine, though I think they're overdoing it at that point. Not my call, though.
  • EDIT: OMG they're nuns, you sick bastard:
    No they're not. At least not of any denomination I ever heard of. The silly classical nun's outfit, that apparently is not even used any longer, can be seen in porn, stripping (not the same thing) and Halloween costumes. If THEY can wear it, then assassins can, too. If you're a religious person, then rest assured, nobody even for a split second thought of this trailer as representative of your religious views.

I saw that trailer and instantly thought that it fits into the same kind of line as Kill Bill. Ridiculous but not really that offensive. Could the marketing team have come up with a better way to advertise the game? Yes, of course.

But is it in some way doing it for the hell of it? No. You have to see that those nuns aren't "just" women...they are assassins. What was 47 supposed to do? Just let them kill him? Would we feel any different if it were a group of men dressed as priests who were then beaten to a pulp and killed? No. That's par for the course. Men fight and die. And in an age when we have female soldiers, so do women.

The reality is that if we want to live in a world where there is total sexual equality, then the good and the bad has to be taken in equal measure. People kill each other, a lot, not only in the real world but especially in games and movies.

Does that make it right? Of course not. But it does make it real. At least on a conceptual level.

Nurb:
Certain debates, like this one are founded in an antiquated double-standard. Violence against women regardless of context automatically means it's wrong. If this "outrage" is allowed to go unchallenged, then we're going to see an even more focused grouped, politically correct, and watered down corporate gaming experience than we have already. Jim's right this wasn't talked about years ago, because years ago, gamers knew that a woman in fighting game was just as deadly as a man in a fighting game, and just as shirtless.

The problem isn't that these women are having violence inflicted upon them, it's that the women themselves are being sexualized and, therefore, so is the violence being committed. If these women were dressed in something other than leather fetish gear, preferably something it might actually make sense for a group of assassins heading into battle to be wearing, this controversy wouldn't exist at the levels it does.

Young gamers today seem to be much more conservative, over-sensitive, and dare I say "wimpy" compared to the days when we had to defend games like Doom from the soccer moms and politicians who were talking like gamers are now!

This is just trite.

As for "objecitfication" do I really need to bring up the Twlight double-standards again where young teenage boys were sexualized and minimally dressed to tingle the vaginas of a female audience? If there was a story targeted at teens about a high schooler being fought over by sexy supernatural women for his affections, the fans would be considered immature, boyish, and accussed of objectifying women for their pathetic fantasies there as well.

That's not "a double standard", that's called "a standard". Twilight has been constantly mocked and satirized since its inception in the public sphere, for its immaturity among other things.

People just love to be outraged and having others hear just how outraged they are

People also love to ignore their own privilege and pretend that anything that doesn't bother them personally isn't a problem.

Alandoril:
I saw that trailer and instantly thought that it fits into the same kind of line as Kill Bill. Ridiculous but not really that offensive. Could the marketing team have come up with a better way to advertise the game? Yes, of course.

But is it in some way doing it for the hell of it? No. You have to see that those nuns aren't "just" women...they are assassins. What was 47 supposed to do? Just let them kill him? Would we feel any different if it were a group of men dressed as priests who were then beaten to a pulp and killed? No. That's par for the course. Men fight and die. And in an age when we have female soldiers, so do women.

The reality is that if we want to live in a world where there is total sexual equality, then the good and the bad has to be taken in equal measure. People kill each other, a lot, not only in the real world but especially in games and movies.

Does that make it right? Of course not. But it does make it real. At least on a conceptual level.

You can't play the realism angle while conveniently ignoring that the female soldiers in this case are dressed in leather fetish gear. Agent 47 shouldn't have let the assassins kill him, the assassins should have been dressed in something other than leather fetish gear.

RedEyesBlackGamer:

It isn't that women are killed. It is that they are needlessly sexualized while they are killed. To quote myself:

Point is, we will never see a trailer of a bunch of male assassins in tight shorts with no shirts on getting murdered while the camera does close ups of their pecks and asses.

Which is part of the problem.

Jerkules:

Nurb:
Certain debates, like this one are founded in an antiquated double-standard. Violence against women regardless of context automatically means it's wrong. If this "outrage" is allowed to go unchallenged, then we're going to see an even more focused grouped, politically correct, and watered down corporate gaming experience than we have already. Jim's right this wasn't talked about years ago, because years ago, gamers knew that a woman in fighting game was just as deadly as a man in a fighting game, and just as shirtless.

The problem isn't that these women are having violence inflicted upon them, it's that the women themselves are being sexualized and, therefore, so is the violence being committed. If these women were dressed in something other than leather fetish gear, preferably something it might actually make sense for a group of assassins heading into battle to be wearing, this controversy wouldn't exist at the levels it does.

And to that I have to say: So what? So what if they're dressed in fetish gear? They're fictional people about to kill a fictional person and engage in a fictional bloody battle that ends up with people dead, who cares how they're dressed. They have a career as professional murderers and others complain about them dressing as... fetish nuns or whatever.

It's fiction. It's all fiction. it's not real. It's fantasy. In some fantasy entertainment that's targeted at a certain majority some of the characters are made to look "more attractive". There's nothing wrong with enjoying attractive or even sexualized characters in fantasy material and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of gamers know the difference between fantasy and reality.

I brought up the Twilight thing, and I suppose I didn't express as well as I could have that I DON'T care that the high-school-age-looking male characters were often minimally dressed and sexualized because that's the kind of story some are into, I'm just annoyed that people complain about how fictional assassins are dressed but ignore the same sexualization and objectification in fiction that THEY enjoy. That's a double-standard.

Some women and girls like the fantasy of hunky supernatural guys fighting over them, some women like to read those romance novels where all the men look like Fabio and flex their muscles around fair Scotish lasses with oppressive fathers or inattentive husbands, some younger women like those yaoi comics with flawless femmy guys going at each other in really weird stories...and some guys like playing video games with firm bodied women in tight nun costumes trying to kill them for being such a badass.

There's nothing wrong with any of that. That's what fantasy is about, enjoying crazy things that won't happen in reality, but what I take issue with is this double-standard where what men like in fiction is wrong and what women like in fiction is A-OK because it's sexualization in entertainment they personally enjoy.

You:

Me:
Young gamers today seem to be much more conservative, over-sensitive, and dare I say "wimpy" compared to the days when we had to defend games like Doom from the soccer moms and politicians who were talking like gamers are now!

This is just trite.

You misspelled "right". ;)

Nurb:
And to that I have to say: So what? So what if they're dressed in fetish gear? They're fictional people about to kill a fictional person and engage in a fictional bloody battle that ends up with people dead, who cares how they're dressed. They have a career as professional murderers and others complain about them dressing as... fetish nuns or whatever.

It's fiction. It's all fiction. it's not real. It's fantasy. In some fantasy entertainment that's targeted at a certain majority some of the characters are made to look "more attractive". There's nothing wrong with enjoying attractive or even sexualized characters in fantasy material and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of gamers know the difference between fantasy and reality.

You're being incredibly dense if you think the fact that it's fantasy means it doesn't matter. If you think works of fiction can't greatly influence people's perception of reality, look up the film "Birth of a Nation". Look up the works of L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand. Works of fiction influence culture at large, and culture influences how real people treat each other. Women being treated as sex objects in fiction is a problem because women being treated as sex objects in real life is a problem.

I brought up the Twilight thing, and I suppose I didn't express as well as I could have that I DON'T care that the high-school-age-looking male characters were often minimally dressed and sexualized because that's the kind of story some are into, I'm just annoyed that people complain about how fictional assassins are dressed but ignore the same sexualization and objectification in fiction that THEY enjoy. That's a double-standard.

You're assuming the women (and men) objecting to the portrayal of women in video games are the same ones uncritically enjoying Twilight. That's a completely unsupported assumption. A straw (wo)man, really.

Some women and girls like the fantasy of hunky supernatural guys fighting over them, some women like to read those romance novels where all the men look like Fabio and flex their muscles around fair Scotish lasses with oppressive fathers or inattentive husbands, some younger women like those yaoi comics with flawless femmy guys going at each other in really weird stories...and some guys like playing video games with firm bodied women in tight nun costumes trying to kill them for being such a badass.

There's nothing wrong with any of that. That's what fantasy is about, enjoying crazy things that won't happen in reality, but what I take issue with is this double-standard where what men like in fiction is wrong and what women like in fiction is A-OK because it's sexualization in entertainment they personally enjoy.

Like I said, there is no double standard. You only think there's one because you're basing your assumptions off of legions of hypocritical women that you've conjured up in your head. Also like I said, it's not the sex that's the problem - it's the objectification and the sexualization of violence against women (which, I remind you, is a big problem in real life).

Jerkules:
You're being incredibly dense if you think the fact that it's fantasy means it doesn't matter.

It doesn't.

If you think works of fiction can't greatly influence people's perception of reality, look up the film "Birth of a Nation". Look up the works of L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand. Works of fiction influence culture at large, and culture influences how real people treat each other. Women being treated as sex objects in fiction is a problem because women being treated as sex objects in real life is a problem.

Comparing influencial cultural works with intentional economical, racial, and religious messages and their historical impact to a modern video game is a little hyperbolic don't you think? I consider the Old Testement to be fictional, but it's not on the same level as as a Hitman sequel. There is no message being conveyed that women need to dress sexy all the time in reality. You don't like it, which is fine. It doesn't mean people are bad for enjoying that in fantasy and it doesn't mean it makes people treat others as sex objects in reality for having seen it

You're assuming the women (and men) objecting to the portrayal of women in video games are the same ones uncritically enjoying Twilight. That's a completely unsupported assumption. A straw (wo)man, really.

Like I said, there is no double standard. You only think there's one because you're basing your assumptions off of legions of hypocritical women that you've conjured up in your head. Also like I said, it's not the sex that's the problem - it's the objectification and the sexualization of violence against women (which, I remind you, is a big problem in real life).

And you completely ignore the hypocrisy. Yes, there is objectification, violence and sexualization going on in video games. It goes on in a lot of entertainment for both men and women, but those targeted to and enjoyed by women (which are fictional equivalents to video games) get a pass for it.

As for objectification, sexualization, mixed with violence I have to say again: So what? If only 2 out of 3 were used, would you not be objecting? They're absurd bondage nuns, it's what they do according to the devs. Number 47 is a non-sexual clone with issues over catholicism (really it's part of his history). He's killed people in fetish clubs, including an absurd, obese "head fetish guy" that looks like the fat vampire from Blade. All characters are exaggerated and overdone.

Like -I- said, it's not real, it doesn't influence people like you think it does. Seriously, if people were that easily influenced all these decades, women would be expected to dress like E3 booth babes 24/7. There's a problem in areas in reality, but video game trailers are not the cause of it and developers changing characters won't fix it.

Just how Doom and violence in video games hasn't influenced people to murder others. Neh?

These same problems you're talking about, influencing negative/unrealistic perceptions about women and violence have been blamed on comic books, rock music, television, certain genre films in the 60's and 70's, metal music, rap music, comic books again during the 90's boom, and now video games. You're doing the same thing as those people did and you don't even realize it. That's why I know video games don't matter and have no influence on people who understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

The problems in reality don't have a simple cause and they don't have a simple solution, but it hasn't stopped people from trying to lay the blame on whatever the popular entertainment was at the time over the years with the same "If we just stopped X, then Y will go away" arguments.

Nurb:
It doesn't.

Yes it does.

Comparing influencial cultural works with intentional economical, racial, and religious messages and their historical impact to a modern video game is a little hyperbolic don't you think? I consider the Old Testement to be fictional, but it's not on the same level as as a Hitman sequel.

You mentioned the Old Testament, which prescribes that women be treated as something between second class citizens and two-legged cattle. You'll note that it and similar religious texts have historically been used to justify exactly that kind of treatment in real life. You'll note that this is still happening. If you consider these texts works of fiction, you're only making my point for me. It's just a question of degree. The portrayal of women in media as sex objects, in the aggregate, negatively influences the way men perceive women and the way women perceives themselves.

There is no message being conveyed that women need to dress sexy all the time in reality.

What? Yes there is, do you live under a rock that doesn't get cable or internet access?

You don't like it, which is fine. It doesn't mean people are bad for enjoying that in fantasy and it doesn't mean it makes people treat others as sex objects in reality for having seen it

See above. We've been over this.

And you completely ignore the hypocrisy. Yes, there is objectification, violence and sexualization going on in video games. It goes on in a lot of entertainment for both men and women, but those targeted to and enjoyed by women (which are fictional equivalents to video games) get a pass for it.

I'm not ignoring anything. You've made up the so-called hypocrisy in your head. I already explained to you that Twilight doesn't "get a pass". Twilight, and to a lesser extent Stephanie Meyer herself, have been mocked from every angle in popular culture, over and over and over again. And really, you're drawing a false equivalency when you say Twilight and romance novels are equivalent to video games.

As for objectification, sexualization, mixed with violence I have to say again: So what?

Then I guess I have to say again: Women are treated as sex objects in real life. Doing the same thing in media exacerbates the problem. You only need to lurk in online communities frequented by self-identified gamers and see how hatefully and vitriolically they respond whenever the subjects of sexism or feminism are brought up to see this principle in action.

Like -I- said, it's not real, it doesn't influence people like you think it does.

We've already established that works of fiction routinely wield enormous influence over people. Your only response to that fact has been to suggest that because it's video game-related, it doesn't matter. For some reason.

Seriously, if people were that easily influenced all these decades, women would be expected to dress like E3 booth babes 24/7.

Again, do you have... any experience with popular culture? Like, at all?

There's a problem in areas in reality, but video game trailers are not the cause of it and developers changing characters won't fix it.

Video games and their trailers are not the cause, they're a cause. Nobody said that if developers were to stop objectifying women that the real life problem would be fixed. It would help, is what we're saying.

Just how Doom and violence in video games hasn't influenced people to murder others. Neh?

These same problems you're talking about, influencing negative/unrealistic perceptions about women and violence have been blamed on comic books, rock music, television, certain genre films in the 60's and 70's, metal music, rap music, comic books again during the 90's boom, and now video games. You're doing the same thing as those people did and you don't even realize it. That's why I know video games don't matter and have no influence on people who understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

There's no doubt in my mind that all of those things you've mentioned have had some measure of influence on the perception of women and violence in popular culture. That doesn't mean any of those things need to go away, it means they need to be more responsible. I say this as a fan of most of the things you've listed.

The problems in reality don't have a simple cause and they don't have a simple solution, but it hasn't stopped people from trying to lay the blame on whatever the popular entertainment was at the time over the years with the same "If we just stopped X, then Y will go away" arguments.

If you're going speak, speak to me. Argue with me. Not this person you've made up in your head that says all these things I haven't said.

Jerkules:

Nurb:
It doesn't.

Yes it does.

Nope!

Snip

I know how the Old Testement treats women, I had to study the damn thing through most of my school years and argue with conservatives all the time about how the Jewish and Christian God values women less down to dollar amount and sanctions slavery but not gender equality. If you re-read my paragraph there, I said it's not on the same level as a video game because it tries to teach religious doctrine and has a bigger social and cultural impact than something ment for pure entertainment.

You seem to be suggesting that nothing or very little if anything has changed since the beginning of the gender equality movement and sexual revolution. At least that's how it comes across when you're saying that expectations of women are to be booth babes are everywhere, in which case I hope you're joking intentionally.

Your disagreement with the fact that video games being fantasy and aren't the real problem because most can differentiate between a game and reality also has you placing me into a camp that would just love to have women as fishnet wearing servants.

You just want an easy target for a complex real world problem that's always existed, but you're looking in the wrong place with silly fantasy where the same thing happens in other entertainment (and yes I know the twilight/yaoi thing is mocked, but it's not targeted as an influence to a real world problem like you're doing with video games where the creators are smeared as bad people). Religious dogma is a good start though.

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