The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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You know what, Bob, you know what?

I actually... agree with you on this one.

That's coming from someone whose character in Tera is a female Castanic warrior that looks like this:
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9403/terascreen.png

You know why I agree with you? Because Anita never said the games where, say my character from Tera make an appearance, shouldn't exist, but that there should be more variety.

This is good.

That's all I really have to say. If you want, I can dig up my comment I posted in support of her Kickstarter, in hopes that she'd actually read it. Now, what I should have done was posted that same comment when I actually backed her project, but still.

Elate:

A Weary Exile:

Elate:
*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

Nah sorry, bro. I was too busy working on my vintage muscle car while lifting weights and making cat-calls at passing women. Now give me your bropardons while I take my leave and go perpetuate the patriarchy by looking at massive boobies on my favorite porno sites. *Brofist*

Captcha: In the limelight. woo, Rush.

A Weary Exile:

Elate:

A Weary Exile:

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

Nah sorry, bro. I was too busy working on my vintage muscle car while lifting weights and making cat-calls at passing women. Now give me your bropardons while I take my leave and go perpetuate the patriarchy by looking at massive boobies on my favorite porno sites. *Brofist*

Captcha: In the limelight. woo, Rush.

Actually, owning a muscle car and having the testicular fortitude to make cat-calls at passerby is one of my fantasies...

Lilani:

OtherSideofSky:

Lilani:

Since he clearly outlined what specific parts of the games are problems, it's safe to assume games that do not have those problems are excluded from criticism.

No, he specifically stated, in his final argument, that the unrealistic portrayal of women in games and other media is problem, while the unrealistic portrayal of men is not, because both are primarily designed to appeal to men. I responded that I am currently living in a nation which produces a significant portion of the world's games in which this is untrue. He is not required to address this situation, but it is his responsibility to acknowledge the existence of circumstances differing from those he describes and the limited scope of his own observations.

In a multicultural industry like this one it is lazy and insulting to present anglosphere tropes as if they are universally applicable. It is an intellectual legacy of the modernist culture of imperialism and Movie Bob, who has devoted an episode to such things in the past, should do a better job qualifying his statements. His own inability to speak Japanese or lack of personal experience with the popular culture of Japan are no excuse.

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

I never said that Japan doesn't sexualize women or design female characters to appeal to men, I said that Japan also sexualizes men and designs male characters to appeal to women (and includes this in marketing) in precisely the way in which Movie Bob states that game developers and publishers across the board do not. That means that one of Bob's three main arguments does not apply to a region which produced a significant portion of the media he showed images of in this episode. The point I am making is that arguments of sexualization and objectification, just like all other issues, must be modified according to the environments about which they occur. I am only requesting that people making speeches acknowledge that they are making them about a particular culture or area of experience and then stick to that. In this case, all he would have to do is specify that he is referring to the English language gaming community and the publishers which service it. After all, even portrayals in Japanese games need to be re-evaluated when they are selectively translated and released in an entirely different cultural context.

In a way, I actually do hope that Video Games become more and more accepted to the point that Grandma gets in on it. It forces more people to have their eyes on the medium and what it's doing. It lessens the attention on the male, and thus forces a serious focus away from this childish sexist male demographic who only thinks girls should be represented as being ditsy and unable to care for themselves, need a big man to rescue them, and/or needing to have big luscious boobs for anyone to pay attention to them.

That incident with the fighting tournament where that coach guy was yelling sexist comments at the girl gamer is indicative of where gamers in general are socially. THAT is the general mind set for a lot of people who play games than it should and is what happens when a medium is set to appeal to really only one group of people.

I hope that new Lara Croft game starts to set an new standard for respect for female characters and women in general.

Lilani:

A Weary Exile:

Elate:
*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

I think you might be surprised. I don't know which one, but I specifically remember there was an episode of Big Picture where he said something like "Guys, if we get to have Ivy from Soul Calibur, we can't complain about girls getting the werewolves in Twilight. Fair is fair. If we get to have our big breasted ladies dressed like they're in an S&M club, they get to have their werewolves dressed like guys from Chippendale's. Fair is fair." Because apparently enough guys were complaining about how sexualized the guys from Twilight are, he caught wind of it and felt compelled to mention it.

I know not all guys are like that, and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that too. But it's still interesting to see. Sex sells, and all that.

I am guessing they didn't watch the "The Real Reason Guys Should Hate Twilight" Video, which was addressing comments like "Edward is so gay", 'Edward is too sensitive" or "The Vampires don't kill people or rip shit up enough". Hate him because he's a creepy, over-protective, manipulative stalker. Is that such a bad thing to say?

And liquor ads tell men it's okay to manipulate women instead of being who they really are, or you know, talking honestly with a woman. That it's okay to stare at women walking by, and that "Men never change". If a feminist said outright that men just want to stare at women and that they never change, it would be offensive. But because it's a liquor ad made by men and aimed at men, it's suddenly okay?

Lilani:

A Weary Exile:

Elate:
*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

I think you might be surprised. I don't know which one, but I specifically remember there was an episode of Big Picture where he said something like "Guys, if we get to have Ivy from Soul Calibur, we can't complain about girls getting the werewolves in Twilight. Fair is fair. If we get to have our big breasted ladies dressed like they're in an S&M club, they get to have their werewolves dressed like guys from Chippendale's. Fair is fair." Because apparently enough guys were complaining about how sexualized the guys from Twilight are, he caught wind of it and felt compelled to mention it.

I know not all guys are like that, and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that too. But it's still interesting to see. Sex sells, and all that.

But I like complaining. And I want to complain about both. :P

Pandering to either gender like that is just stupid and a problem that is encouraged by both genders. Did you know a lot of book stores have sections dedicated to "Paranormal Teen Romance" (probably) as a direct result of Twilight's popularity? They aren't even trying to hide the fact that they are basically building an industry based on pre-teen girl porn.

The figures of the women of Soul Calibur are just as bad as Twilight's writing for pretty much the same reason, they're just directed at different audiences. Having physically attractive characters (Realistic or no) isn't inherently a bad thing. Having characters serve the specific purpose of just being attractive to sell with sex should be reserved for porn and similar media. I would like to see this sort of thing done away with entirely in mainstream media, but I just don't like that people seem to think that the female side of the argument is the only valid position.

I knew what I was getting into, but it wasn't any less disappointing.

Appreciated the complete glazing over of stereotypical male physique and a male audience reaction to it, and the avoiding of female representations that weren't Mai or Ivy, but I've learned generalizations and oversimplifications of issues are integral to Bob's arsenal by now.

Here's what I learned,

1. 4Chan = Gamers (bolster arguments/ opinions by highlighting the comments of trolls. Anita and Bob are both guilty of doing this (with Bob it's commonplace by now though)).
2. Inaccurate representations of women = wrong.
3. Inaccurate representations of men = ok.
4. Continuing to advertise a documentary that will do nothing but reiterate documented and largely known ideals = ok.
5. Never question feminist ideals towards gaming/ the clearly bias nature and singular view of the doc series = Sure why not.

The reality here is sex sells with audiences in general when it comes to hyper sexual representations of both genders in the media, and it's hardly a "male fantasy" when women buy into it and take part in the creation of material like it.

The reality again is both genders, while both accepting it in large numbers with their wallets (which is why is why hyper sexualization will continue), are critical of their physical representations in the media, hence designers responding by creating a number of characters within video games that don't follow the vilified representations of said genders.

The issue here, in my eyes, is the fallacious notion of "proper representation" in the first place, as there is no "correct" way to represent either gender (hence the complaints about large breasts or a female being put in the role of a victim go out the window, as they're about as valid as complaining about a man's toned biceps or being the hero all the time).

And no, there is no "empowerment" for male audiences to find in a male "being the hero", largely because there's no emotional connection or relatable notions to be procured from said position alone. The same applies if it were a female viewing a female "being the hero" or an overweight male relating to an overweight game character (unless you're an unbelievable shallow individual).

Furthermore, any form of female representation can be twisted into a sexist depiction on the simply virtue of being female. If there aren't any obvious physical characteristics worth demonizing, the personality will be turned to, faulting the character for being perhaps being submissive, weak, unintelligent, and having other negative or flawed characteristics (as this apparently acts as a poor representation for the entire female populace).

I go into further detail on this issue in these videos if anyone cares.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpssUwG-cOI&feature=plcp
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW6qS3W37AQ&feature=channel&list=UL

Machine Man 1992:

Blade_125:

Rednog:
I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

I think what Rednog was trying to say was that with all the fuckloads of money she raked in, she'd have relatively more constructive and relevant things to say, because seriously? Complaining about motherfucking LEGOS? What is this I don't even.

Yes, the revolution starts at home, but with all that money, one would think that she'd put it to good use for things other than bitching about the fact that games are geared towards 15-25 year old heterosexual males, who are the core consumers of video games.

Not LEGOs, per se. LEGO advertising. Once marketed equally to boys and girls, now marketed more to boys and using language about building, where the female-oriented LEGO line is less about building or making stuff with LEGOs, but playing like Barbies with your LEGO built stuff. It's quite frankly, insulting to girls. And even the Bricks in female LEGOs are pretty much all pink and purple. Really. Watch the video. It's all in there.

A Weary Exile:
But I like complaining. And I want to complain about both. :P

Pandering to either gender like that is just stupid and a problem that is encouraged by both genders. Did you know a lot of book stores have sections dedicated to "Paranormal Teen Romance" (probably) as a direct result of Twilight's popularity? They aren't even trying to hide the fact that they are basically building an industry based on pre-teen girl porn.

The figures of the women of Soul Calibur are just as bad as Twilight's writing for pretty much the same reason, they're just directed at different audiences. Having physically attractive characters (Realistic or no) isn't inherently a bad thing. Having characters serve the specific purpose of just being attractive to sell with sex should be reserved for porn and similar media. I would like to see this sort of thing done away with entirely in mainstream media, but I just don't like that people seem to think that the female side of the argument is the only valid position.

Here's my take. Having a woman in a bizarre costume as a pinup is okay. Every now and again.. Women reading trashy romance novels and getting moist over them is fine. In moderation.

My problem with the Twilight series is how fucking badly written it is and the authoress's completely unjustified ego over it. If it was just a shitty series of romance novels, I could ignore it more easily. But Stephenie Meyer's god awful interviews were brought to my attention and I couldn't help but feel a little pissed off that she's telling her fans to uphold Edward as the ultimate male and I'm just a hairy asshole. It astounded me how someone who objectively knows nothing about men can have the sheer gall to claim to have written the greatest male protagonist ever.

As to the idea of pandering, I don't mind it as a bit of escapism here and there. What bugs me is that I can't get the fuck away from it. It's constantly in my face. It's like being bombarded with junk food to the point where I actually start jonesing for a salad.

...And as a tiny voice in this mountain of posts.

I'm not into the "overtly" sexualized feminine image that mass media portrays. Big breasts just seem out of place sometimes, and really; I prefer athletic women body types anyways (which happen to have smaller breasts anyways in real life). Although that might be 'cause I want the girl to be my hero, rather than me be her hero; for reasons so convoluted my cracked psyche can't comprehend them all. Also, I seem to prefer my women with more clothes; as opposed to less, and am utterly opposed to dresses and skirts. And what do I want in a first date from the girl of my dreams? I want her to beat me in a duel, or save me from a mugger, or punch some guy in the face for insulting me.

In short: I seem to have a reversed idea of what the gender roles in my relationships should be.

Even worse, every time a few friends drag me off to a bar, they keep trying to set me up with some blond or other highly feminine "party girl"; and they are always annoying as hell. I don't look at them, I am not attracted to them. And often I don't even want to speak to them as any comfort they might try to give me would only open up both old and new wounds rather than give any healing effect at all.

In other words: I hate society's idea of women, as it makes women into something I don't want them to be; while also keeping me from a girl I might actually like.

I want a girl with drive, a powerful strength of will. Someone that can push me forwards when I can't stand alone, and can inspire me to move forward when I have no idea what I am fighting for. One that can stand with perfect focus on the task at hand, and all questions beyond the here and now disappear in her presence. And probably most importantly, she must have some overpowering competitive drive to do better than the others around her.

...

I have not seen one girl like this, in media or in real life that matches my idea of what my perfect girl should be. So not only is society's idea of women wrong, but I'm probably wrong in what I want them to be too.

...And at this point somebody will probably reply with a "forever alone" face. 'Cause that's what it feels like sometimes.

And now I'm going to go obsess over Rainbow Dash as my only source of comfort.

LadyRhian:
*snip*

Yes. Because she's assuming that we're all the former, when a lot of us are the latter.

As for the liquor ad: members of the same gender are often as responsible for reinforcing these gender rules we have set up. Women do it as well. I go back to Twilight as an example: a "romance" written by a woman that condones a lot of things (Stalker-y boyfriends, being submissive and completely emotionally dependent on your spouse, having kids is your #1 goal, etc.) that would be considered anti-feminist.

Moeez:
This is an awful argument, it's basically "it's just a videogame, guys" and you're diverting attention from the subject.

That is not what I meant and you know it. If you're going to respond to me, please refrain from misrepresenting my arguments. That being said, yes, it is just a video game, in the same way that it's just a film or a TV series. We have nothing to gain from exaggerating perceived inequalities in fictional media.

Moeez:
Idealised men is a valid thing but the frequency is negligible, which is an important point to make. Plus, it's not equal because those idealised men are male power fantasy design, not female sexual fantasy like most female characters are male sexual fantasies.

I don't disagree with you. Had you read my post properly, you would've noticed that my argument was not that MovieBob was wrong about what he said but that he's debunking an argument that isn't valid to begin with. The fact that men are also idealised is irrelevant; two wrongs do not make a right. One does not excuse the other.

Moeez:
Yes, there are higher-ups that DO have sexist bias in giving women jobs. Video games are the biggest entertainment industry right now, and have a big influence on culture. As such, the industry is responsible for its image. We should focus our energy on making our media more fair because there are all kinds of people that engage in this activity, not just white heterosexual males.

If someone is sexist, they're going to do sexist things. If someone is violent, they're going to commit violent acts. Violent video games do not make people violent and video games with stereotypical female characters do not make people sexist.

You are switching cause and effect around. You also seem to highly over-estimate the indoctrinating power of big boobs. The male sexual fantasies that led to the way women are portrayed existed before video games, before TV series and films, before books, before any fictional media of any kind, and they're going to exist regardless of what you do with fictional media. It's biology. Men are programmed to by default want gorgeous, big-breasted women. Those features evolved to attract men and men evolved to be attracted by them. This is just reality.

Is it still a problem that women are portrayed in this way? Of course, but not in the way you're making it out to be. It's tacky pandering to a false idea of what gamers as a group want. We're no longer all straight white guys. If someone wants to make a game targeted to straight white males, sure, they can use the stereotypical hot girl. It's not what I personally prefer but I'm not going to disabuse them, nor am I going to call them sexist for pandering to an audience.

What I would want is for that to be the exception rather than the rule, which is where the problem lies today; video games that are made for the benefit of wider audiences are crafted to appeal primarily to white heterosexual males. This we should do away with. It makes us look immature, just like the windbags on X-Box Live.

You seem to think that if only we could make entertainment media perfectly "fair," whatever that is, then we'd see less sexism in the world. You, my friend, are very na´ve. Moreover, social attitudes towards women have been steadily progressing, in spite of what you call "sexist" media becoming more and more prevalent each passing year. The US is quite far behind Europe in this matter, as it is in many other areas, primarily religion and politics. We're not finished, certainly not, we still have some ways to go, but we are getting there.

rabidkanid:

I hope that new Lara Croft game starts to set an new standard for respect for female characters and women in general.

And then they put in Lara getting beat up by a bunch of men who heavily imply wanting to gang rape her. Stay classy, Eidos.

Keeping my knee-jerk reaction to a minimum I'd say one reason games don't affect male gamers as badly is because we don't immediately start some freudian psychoanalysis on characters. this behavior is post game if ever. it doesn't help that while games have sexism issues dealing with unhealthy / unrealistic body images so do all women magazines.

A Weary Exile:
Pandering to either gender like that is just stupid and a problem that is encouraged by both genders. Did you know a lot of book stores have sections dedicated to "Paranormal Teen Romance" (probably) as a direct result of Twilight's popularity? They aren't even trying to hide the fact that they are basically building an industry based on pre-teen girl porn.

The figures of the women of Soul Calibur are just as bad as Twilight's writing for pretty much the same reason, they're just directed at different audiences. Having physically attractive characters (Realistic or no) isn't inherently a bad thing. Having characters serve the specific purpose of just being attractive to sell with sex should be reserved for porn and similar media. I would like to see this sort of thing done away with entirely in mainstream media, but I just don't like that people seem to think that the female side of the argument is the only valid position.

*Claps for getting it*

The issue here is not the superficial, and characters shouldn't be demonized for ultimately frivolous physical proportions.

It's the internal design of characters, and it'll only be fixed by strong writers stepping up to the plate and creating characters of a wide range of strengths, emotions, and weaknesses, that audience can come to relate to (such internal qualities are what build emotional connections between audiences and characters, as oppose to superficial qualities like race, gender, or physique).

The issue here is doing so requires a bit of effort, and it's easier (and much more profitable) to simply pander to the idiot crowds that just want hot guys and girls.

Finally, this issue affects all. To apply that men "don't care" (because we're all like megabros who want Megan Fox to be every female protagonist in everything) and women "do" (because they have the inherent ability to look past the superficial and only love "personalities") is utter cock, and frankly outs you as an individual with some seriously misguided views on genders (and arguably a sexist in your own right).

As people, we're all extremely similar at the end of the day. Things like race and gender merely act as superficial and societal differences between us.

It's a pity a number of video producers with large audiences on the internet don't realize that.

DrVornoff:
[quote="Riobux" post="6.379179.14861560"]
I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to discover that there are still ivory tower polemics in academia! This is the fifth monocle this week I've lost due to the sheer volume of such discomfiting revelations.

My problem isn't just that it exists (fuck, there's plenty of sexism/racism/homophobia/etc in academia), my problem is the subject in question is one that commonly pushes equality as one of the main focus points of the subject but yet clearly allows something so contrary to it. This isn't like a company saying "we make seatbelts" and it's revealed they do but they do it badly or that they actually produce seats. This is more like a company claiming they make seatbelts and it's revealed that not only they don't produce seatbelts but they actually produce only knives designed to break seatbelts and SUVs with spikes to impale through the windscreen and into whatever occupants there currently are in the car. Less safety and more Carmageddon.

Riobux:
My problem isn't just that it exists (fuck, there's plenty of sexism/racism/homophobia/etc in academia), my problem is the subject in question is one that commonly pushes equality as one of the main focus points of the subject but yet clearly allows something so contrary to it.

Yeah, weirdos hijacking an ideology to justify acting like dicks. That's a real novelty.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't why this particular example pisses you off more than the others.

This isn't like a company saying "we make seatbelts" and it's revealed they do but they do it badly or that they actually produce seats. This is more like a company claiming they make seatbelts and it's revealed that not only they don't produce seatbelts but they actually produce only knives designed to break seatbelts and SUVs with spikes to impale through the windscreen and into whatever occupants there currently are in the car. Less safety and more Carmageddon.

... I think I got a head injury from that analogy. Mostly because it seems to be saying that the entire feminist movement is the car company from Fight Club.

templar1138a:
Thanks for pointing this crap out.

When I saw the trailer for the kick-starter, I remained as objective as possible, neither allowing myself to say "Oh god, not this again!" or "Oh god, she's so right!"

In the end, I thought about it and thought, "Yes, there's plenty of stereotyping and objectifying of women in video games. But what's this woman's agenda? There's something about her tone that I don't like. I get the feeling she has a certain sense of superiority to people around her. In a way, she reminds me of Michael Moore..."

I later read that she makes a point about still being a virgin. I have yet to confirm it, but if she does indeed make that as a point to try to validate herself, it says a lot about her agenda and her view of men.

But my ultimate realization came about when I saw the hateful responses to her kick-starter trailer. At first I just thought, "Oh great, the internet's at it again." But then I realized, "Wait a minute, she wanted this to happen. She wanted to be pelted with abuse and hate so attention would be drawn to her kick-starter and she'd get the funds she needs. Not only that, but she could possibly use that abuse as ammunition to push the extreme not-feminist idea that men are inferior to women (if that's her agenda, I honestly don't know, it only occurred as a possibility)."

And then, in my best Australian accent, "Clever girl!"

So from there, I decided to ignore this fiasco. Because the abuse is not being caused by the video games themselves, which I think she believes. The abuse is a symptom of larger problems within the gamer and geek cultures. Her video isn't going to change that in either direction, and she herself will be forgotten until she finds another powder keg of a demographic to set off.

And if you haven't noticed, I haven't addressed her by name. Because I don't remember it, even with it being mentioned in the kick-starter promo and this Big Picture episode. Because she is so small compared to the larger issue that is root of the misogyny that exists within gamer/geek culture.

I'm leaning on this side of thinking.

Don't get me wrong. I think that the gratuitous over-sexualization of women is repulsive where pointless. (Guess what? I'm a heterosexual white male.) However, when people start speaking of equality, it also isn't uncommon to hear the over-demonization also. Yes, heterosexual white men are a majority. No, this doesn't mean that heterosexual white men are evil. The thing about equality is approaching it without a holier-than-thou attitude. Why? Because equality=/=superiority.

Don't get me wrong. The woman in the video is discussing a valid issue and bringing equality to games is a cause I support wholeheartedly. What I don't want to see however, is a hostile takeover. And before you go saying "You're just afraid of something different" or "It's never going to happen, get over it."; Yes, I know the likelihood of it happening is incredibly low and virtually impossible. However, this is when we approach the area of "What happens when the minority can strike back against the majority?"

tl'dr: I digress, so let me put it in simpler terms what I'm trying to get across:

1. I support equality in video game portrayals.

2. By supporting equality in video game portrayals, this means I support both female and male fantasies being portrayed in fair portion. Video gaming is an entertainment medium and as such, the ridiculous hyper-sexualization, while not good in excess, still has its place in a self-serving fantasy medium. This goes for both genders.

3. I do not support either side taking chances to flip the bird with their products. Just make the product, make it good, and be done. This means I will not support an individual who uses their cause to make it a pedestal of superiority as opposed to another group of people.

4. I don't demonize women who want to be equal. I dislike the ones that view the other gender as inferior. In the same respect, my views are the same with men. Equality means that everyone is given an equal chance, not just the minority. Don't shamelessly pander to either majority or minority is what I'm saying.

and finally, 5. Basically, you can have your equal share, but if you screw with mine, we have a problem. There is room for both representations in rational portion and trying to demand for more of than another person only ruins it for both of us.

DrVornoff:

Riobux:
My problem isn't just that it exists (fuck, there's plenty of sexism/racism/homophobia/etc in academia), my problem is the subject in question is one that commonly pushes equality as one of the main focus points of the subject but yet clearly allows something so contrary to it.

Yeah, weirdos hijacking an ideology to justify acting like dicks. That's a real novelty.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't why this particular example pisses you off more than the others.

As in the film? It doesn't piss me off more than other examples in general sociology, but it just reminds me of how annoying it is to be involved in something so contradictory.

DrVornoff:

... I think I got a head injury from that analogy. Mostly because it seems to be saying that the entire feminist movement is the car company from Fight Club.

Less subtle than the car company from Fight Club. More just Twisted Metal and Carmageddon in how obvious and shamelessly they do it.

Every time I see this stuff it pains me. Seriously. Anita deserves no attention.
I'm not saying that sexism doesn't exist, it does. I'm not saying we don't have to work on that. What I am saying is that Anita isn't a quality speaker for any cause.
First off SHE REVIEWS EVERY COMMENT BEFORE THEY GET ON HER CHANNEL.
This whole thing happened and YOU saw it because SHE wanted you to. Usually she blocks under the grounds of making it a safe and respectful place to discuss feminism by which she means her videos. That generally doesn't leave room for discussion even level headed and well meant discussion but that's okay, because she had a point, there should be a safe place.
I see people read one sensationalist written article about her and start funding her kickstarter because of the backlash. Have you seen her other stuff? Did you look? Did you care? Or were you blindly throwing money to 'fight misogyny'?
If any of the former, good, glad you've weighed in on the serious issues that she represents in her work. If not you are the problem.
Beyond the sheeple point...
Yeah I don't personally like her work. She does often bring up very important issues but they are more often than not mired in hyperbole and hysteria. Without listening to the final wrap up of Tropes vs. Women #2 (women in refrigerators) and adhering to every point she made the only acceptable women characters are ones that are as strong or stronger than relating male characters that can't or rather shouldn't die or experience power loss and if that were to somehow happen it musn't be of any meaning to, or resulting in, the furthering of relating male characters' plot or character arcs.
She then proceeds to bring up violence against women without going into depth on how it exactly relates nor how the industry can relate the issue into their work. Comics are violent. That's the reality.
Its not that I don't see that there are 'Tropes' that women get assigned but revealing something most are aware of is pointless and she really doesn't address a practical progression into acceptable terms as much as she address her gripes with the issue itself.
Talking about powers and plot what about Animal Man's daughter Maxine Baker, Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch and Abby Holland. I mean God, the only reason Animal Man even exists as a super hero is because the RED (think after life for all fauna) needed a protector for Maxine until she was ready to become God of all fauna

Hitchmeister:
There hasn't been a good Big-Boobed Panty-Ninja since VII. And Big-Boobed Panty-Ninja X-2: More Panties was the worst idea ever. They should just quit now.

The sixaxis jiggle physics control in Big-Boobed Panty Ninja 9 was the last good thing about the franchize. Breast attacks were easy to learn, but hard to master...

*Sigh* I wonder if Bob knew what kind of monster he created with this gamer joke.

I expect in a year or so, we will see an actual fan made copy of Big-Boobed Panty Ninja 1, in all its 8-bit, side scrolling glory.

If the whole feminist idea is to gain equal representation and placement as men in all walks of life, then they have to stop pushing that all women in media formats have to be "mentally and physically equal to men". This itself is unrealistic as it does not represent all of women but rather the empowerment they feel they are entitled to. Look at how men are portrayed, men come in hundreds of physical characteristics, mental characteristics, ethnic characteristics, and religious backgrounds. To achieve equality, women have to represented in all of these forms to the same degree.
That means there will always have to be: strong, idiots, weak, lazy, fat, intelligent, zealots (that includes "straw feminists"), and subjected (slaves, laborers, etc.) etc. types of female characters, but even then we would probably still see complaining.

And what I found confusing was that MovieBob did not talk about how he mentioned the old Hercules video and how he said that characters like those we invented not only for young children to have heroes but for women to have "fantasies", so yes, even men have been used as sexual fantasies and in some small cases are still used as such and now it is very rare to see male characters that fit into a wide range of differing archetypes, so even men are now being minimalized down to a simple form, the same as most female characters.

Now I don't know if my opinion is entirely valid but to me, men have had much more 'elbow room' in terms of position and life roles, so it is only natural to see them in so many roles in media, but it was only recently that women have begun to break out of their stereotypical roles into different fields, thus there is not yet sufficient character models to go off of to create interesting and various female characters at this time.

Now I can't say I've see every video by that woman but from what I have seen, she tends to push every female character that isn't the main one from Hunger Games to be wrong in design and then she complains that free media needs to change to fit for stronger female leads. I find this a problem because she is trying to push limitations on creators and developers by stating quite clearly what they should and should not do. And if feminists have such problems with straw feminists, then push to have realistic feminists also included to point out the problems that straw feminists present to your groups. Simply getting rid of them in media does not get rid of them in real life.

I'm not against women having equal representation but I am against people trying to impose their will onto others under the banner of "equality".

Now I have the feeling a certain commentator will give feedback on my post so give me your opinion first before bashing mine.

medv4380:

Play different kinds of games and you'll get those different body types. Clearly from the vid Bob plays mostly Western titles and titles targeted at the West and the Beach Babe Fetish Types. Really, I'm not joking that the Flat Chested, Unemotional, Business Lady is a fetish in Japan and I know for a fact they have games with character just like that.

And? You can definitely find different types of female characters in games, but looking at the mainstream games, not so much. What you're saying that it's okay because there are some niche markets for them, or that there are some. That's like saying that since there are some games without racism, racism is totally okay in games.

Besides, you are missing the point here, by pointing to characters that are completely fetishized, and so intended to be sex-objects even more so. When the point is that female characters in games shouldn't be always designed with just their sex appeal in mind.

medv4380:

Their are far better arguments about Sexism and Womens Rights then this one.
The right to vote, the right not to be bartered and traded as property, the right to work, the right for equal pay, and so on.

The argument of Women shouldn't be seen sexually is one that only has two outcomes. The only 3rd option is to ignore the argument entirely because the outcomes are unacceptable.

Who is arguing that women shouldn't be seen sexually? You? It seems like you're turning this argument into something Bob never said, so you can more easily refute it.

Besides, what stops one from caring about this issue and also about how these attitudes affect people more directly in real life?

A Weary Exile:

LadyRhian:
*snip*

Yes. Because she's assuming that we're all the former, when a lot of us are the latter.

As for the liquor ad: members of the same gender are often as responsible for reinforcing these gender rules we have set up. Women do it as well. I go back to Twilight as an example: a "romance" written by a woman that condones a lot of things (Stalker-y boyfriends, being submissive and completely emotionally dependent on your spouse, having kids is your #1 goal, etc.) that would be considered anti-feminist.

Since you snipped out my response, I have no idea to which of my responses you are responding. And for the record, Stephanie Meyer is Mormon, her religion informed her idea of a "perfect romance" and I disliked Twilight intensely. So did just about everyone I know who read it, the rest of them just didn't care for it. I got icked out by a man breaking into a woman's house to watch her sleep. To use an internetism. so much DO NOT WANT.

I disagree

Kratos isnt attractive...I wouldnt want that shit within 10 miles of me

Voltano:

Gamers have faced discrimination and insulting stereotypes directed toward them as well. You could say that its not as bad or as LONG as have women suffered. But when you consider that we had to go through a Supreme Court case just to defend the art-value of video games a few years ago; are sometimes mixed with the "D&D Nerd" stereotype Hollywood uses in their films for slasher films; and China/Korea are leading a campaign to express how dangerous "Internet addiction" is from youths playing too much video games, I think it shouldn't be surprising that gamers would get defensive. So I respect what the Feminists are saying--but being as nice (or as snobbish and jaded as Bob is here) as possible when saying this to gamers than, well, how are you surprised again that gamers would retaliate like this?

EVERY artistic medium in the last 200 years have gone to the Supreme Court to defend its art value - because of attempts to legislate against new art forms, up to and including comics and motion pictures. The results of this were not legal censorship, but generally the formation of groups and agreements like the MPAA and the Comics Code that exist to preserve the right to free speech through voluntary self-regulation.

Now here's the thing, you don't see film buffs reacting this way when their hobby is "under fire" for having problems with how women, men, etc. are portrayed. Or even if there's a reaction from PETA (hello Humane Society approved "No Animals Were Harmed").

Do you know why there tends to be more diversity in films than video games (not saying there's a LOT more, but there IS more) - feminists, minorities, moral crusaders, lobby groups and art critics have and STILL ARE fought for representation through lawsuits, awareness campaigns, criticism, and money. Money has historically been the most persuasive method, as they're shouting "we are a demographic that should be marketed to" has been great business. This is why the extreme right have an entire market for Christian films, why Tyler Perry has a repeatable audience, and why Quentin Tarantino can make Kill Bill - because groups went out of their way to be heard and say that they have a right to watch art that appeals to them. How does Hollywood handle it? Through experimenting with the demo. They hear demand for a certain kind of film, with specific actors, and they work hard on attracting an untapped market. How do film fans handle it? They watch the films they want to watch, praise them or critique them depending on their reaction.

Part of the responsibility of being an art form is the ability to take criticism, and learn from it. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and representation of women and minorities - while still a problem in Hollywood - is much less of a problem then it used to be. Every once in awhile you'll hear about a minority group handing out "report cards" to TV and Hollywood studios for representation, and the two major Hollywood trade magazines (Variety and the Hollywood Reporter) actually take it seriously. These groups have enough power to influence both box office money as well as public image. And while people might cry "Political Correctness", the evidence is there. We finally have asian-americans in lead roles, for example (long gap between the last few years and Bruce Lee). We have female action heroes. We have female gross-out comedies. This has happened because some executive somewhere listened to the idea that an untapped market is valuable.

Voltano:

Why are we not seeing games made from Feminists? I'm not talking about a triple-A, "Goddess of War" kind of game to rival Kratos (Kratala?), but something made in their image that they can distribute. Release it as a Flash game on Newgrounds or as an Indie game on Xbox Live Arcade. SUPPORT game designers fresh out of College or laid off by hiring them to help you make the game YOU want!

Money. Feminist games have not been proving as anything but a niche market because, well, part of the problem is that male gamers don't make it a welcoming environment. Not to say there haven't been games that made the attempt. Hey Baby (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/06/02/hey-baby-the-first-person-shooter/) is one extreme example of a feminist game.

And while we constantly revile the "casual market", these games are a resounding success, and has created a demand for games aimed at women and young girls. Guess what? It's already happening. What stands in its way are reactions like the ones to tropes vs. women here.

Article after article is written here about wanting more women in the industry. They are in the minority at the moment, and sexual harassment is actually a problem within game companies. This is changing, slowly but surely. Sophie Houlden is an indie game maker that's one of my favorites. Also Take a look at http://www.womeningamesjobs.com/

My favorite Soul Calibur character was actually Ivy, but she also had a more sensible outfit at one point - http://www.subnova.com/library/view/sc2/ivy-2p.jpg

That's my favorite.

I'd like to see a video on Tropes vs. MovieBob: Violence in video games.

Also the reverse does happen. Boy-bands and media tell women they need a person in Uniform, or someone who lives on a farm with straw in their hair and can routinely bench-press 320 lbs. (With no interest in video games either or anything that could even come close to be considered geeky.)

Also I'd like to argue about feminism and the darker parts of gender equality but thats an entirely different animal.

Matt_LRR:
Or, considering she was trying to fund a small project to host on her own website, maybe she should have used a crowd-sourcing system like kist-OH WAIT.

Yeah that's exactly the point I was going for.

Matt_LRR:
Why are you so hung up on this "business" point. She is trying to create a project. Projects cost time and money to make. Projects are also sometimes profitable to the person who undertakes it.

SO WHAT?

What do you mean so what? She lied to her fucking donors and lied about what she was going to do with the money. Any reasonable person would be outraged.

Matt_LRR:
Maybe she could have - but so what? There are systems (like kickstarter) that exist for the sole purpose of allowing people to generate funding for projects they want to create. Apparently people were more than willing to pay her to make it. Why shouldn't she make use of that?

Because she didn't need to fund her projects, she was perfectly capable of doing them without.

Matt_LRR:
This isn't an argument against making money on it now. I did LoadingReadyRun for five years for free before we got picked up by The Escapist. Now I make money on it. If the Escapist hadn't picked us up, i'd still have done it for free, but given the option between doing it for free, and doing it for a paycheque, I'll take the paycheque.

You can't compare your situation to Anita's, they're fundamentally different. You entered into a contract with a gaming website with the express purpose of making a profit off of your content, she started a Kickstarter to fund a project she did for free. If she actually wanted to get paid doing videos she should have considered the YouTube partnership program.

Matt_LRR:
No, you pretty much can. the difference is in the terms of the agreement, not the structure of it.

Yeah, except that's really important.

Matt_LRR:
Actually I did. I'm not sure you actually know the difference between what might be cast as "radical feminist ideas" and the generally non-controversial ground covered by FF.

I'm not sure you know the difference between someone who is actually knowledgeable on the subject of video games and someone who knows nothing about the video games or the character's she's trying to create a series about.

Matt_LRR:
Her feminist arguments aren't wrong, they sit pretty much in line with accepted feminist theory.

I'm not talking about feminism, I'm talking about the way she handles and analyses the characters she supposedly views as being sexist.

Matt_LRR:
Bullshit they're not.

They're not.

Matt_LRR:
I work a full tuime job because my work with LRR pays a little, but not enough to actually live off of. If I had a series idea, with sufficient interest and financial backing to support undertaking it, I'd drop my day job like a sack of rocks.

So?

Matt_LRR:
On top of four years undergraduate study.

Well that's not saying much.

Matt_LRR:
She entered into a contract with her donors to produce a video series with a clearly identified set of deliverables. As long as those deliverables are delivered, she's not in breech.

You know, I get it that people justify her every move but it's getting a bit silly now. Do you honestly believe the average donor won't be outraged when they'll find out that a part of the money went right into hers and her "team's" pockets? Don't kid yourself. This is at best a gray area.

Matt_LRR:
"Gone from"? From minute one, I've contended that that money is hers, and can be used however she deems fit in the course of producing this video series.

Of course you do. You'd be more than happy to steal money from donors the same way she did. Otherwise you wouldn't so fervently support her right to pocket donation money.

Matt_LRR:
Yeah it is.

Nope.

Matt_LRR:
That is neither "lying" nor is it in any way related to deception while generating funds for this project.

Actually, yes it is. Firstly, she didn't play the video game but yet still took the time to present herself as someone who's actually knowledgeable on the subject. Secondly, she used her previous FR videos to justify and point out that she is more than capable of doing a well researched video series when, in fact, she's not.

Matt_LRR:
PEOPLE DON'T LIVE FOR FREE. COSTS OF LIVING ARE PART OF THE EXPENSE OF CONTENT PRODUCTION.

She is not working with a publisher, these things aren't a "given". She should have made it clear where the money was going to go to. She is not making a documentary, she is not making a movie, she is creating the exact same videos she's done before under the guise that this time she needs money because... well, who knows. Maybe her piggy bank went dry and needed a way to make money and thought scamming the shit out of a couple of people was a moral and ethical thing to do.

Matt_LRR:
[i]Except for, you know, the Master's degree she has in it.

Which means jack shit when you go on camera and know nothing about the subject you're supposedly an expert in. Her master's means nothing.

Matt_LRR:
Thank christ you are not grand arbiter of what qualifies as "knowlegable".

Hey! I've got an idea! Let's ignore everything she's done up until now and focus on her credentials, I'm sure the fact that she has shown herself on numerous occassions to be pretty much clueless shouldn't factor into that.

Matt_LRR:
There's one person who's dug themselves into an embarassing hole here, and it sure as hell isn't Ms. Sarkeersian.

You're right, you did dig yourself into a whole.

This is a huge area that really does need to be explored and examined, but it worries me if she overlooks certain areas such as the origin. many of these stereotypes come from Japan, not just America and its all seen a little differently depending on the origin.
If she covers all the bases and keeps it at a higher level, i would be extremely interested in seeing this pan out.

the absolute worst thing i can see coming out of this, over the long term, is companies actively trying to appease the female audience (in the way they seem to in the past) and every female character that comes out is essentially a female master chief (dull, uninteresting, violating norms as if she's allergic to them).

each character (male or female, shouldn't be any difference on a personality level) should have their personal likes, their dislikes and which societal norms they choose to follow (do they like jeans, shorts, skirts or dresses? the norm for a male is more limited to the first two while the range is larger for women but i wouldn't be offended if a game had a male cross-dresser as a main character, but just as breasts size shouldn't define women, an unusual choice for a man shouldn't define him either).

I think the best way of doing it is like how i saw planet side 2 E3 coverage, the women in that game could have DD's or A's, doesn't matter because they're there to do the same job as the guys, in essentially the same armor.

newwiseman:
Does anyone already own a copyright to "big boob panty ninja"? If not I've got a game to make.

She'll be a female protagonist who needs to dress sexy to get close to her assassination targets because her voluptuous physique make all the sneaking around in the dark quite impossible for her. I'll also have her suffer from back problems and self esteem issues. I'll also give her a more realistic looking sister who is an all around better ninja (think protoman in relation to megaman when he is first introduced) that she want to be better than. This would probably make a good manga the more I think this out...

In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves. Both images are unrealistic but one is impossible for all but a few.

Velvet Assassin, and an adventure game about Mata Hari.

The new Assassin's Creed 3 Vita game is about a bi-racial female assassin, and I'm looking forward to that. They flash an image of her in victorian clothing, too.

RatRace123:
And I've mentioned it before on this site, and again I don't want to make any assumptions but isn't being beautiful a fantasy for women like being a badass is for men?
And if that is the case, couldn't that also contribute to why nearly every female character has a super model appearance, even the ones who don't dress like they run their clothes through a lawnmower?

It is a fantasy that applies to both men and women, and it's why we have Nathan Drake who appeals to the suave, charming "swashbuckler" fantasy as well as the other super-model female characters. However, we also have characters like Marcus Fenix and Kratos, who, while muscular, are also extremely ugly. These characters fulfill the grizzled badass fantasy. Look at Gordon Freeman, who doesn't look particularly handsome, yet serves to put the player in the shoes of an intelligent survivalist nerd who saves the day. You will rarely if ever spot a female protagonist that matches either of those descriptions.

And while this is slightly off-topic, the proportion of male-to-female protagonists in games says a lot about the industry, as well as the ratio of developed male protagonists to female. While there are a lot of blank slates with both genders, male protagonists are far more likely to get characterization. Females are usually restricted to Bioware-style protagonists or having few traits beyond "sexy."

samus17:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE

Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.

Farther than stars:

WitherVoice:

--snip--

MovieBob kinda just answered your question. It's not that people want ugly women in video games, but they do want them to be normal. Why? Because, as MovieBob said, this stereotype of women creates an unrealistic expectation of women in the real world. The fact that you just mentioned "ugly" women, kind of already proves my point. The fact that your kneejerk reaction was: "oh, we're talking about women who are not skinny D-cupped oversexualized Bayonettas, so we must be talking about 'ugly' women" means that even if you haven't latched onto the stereotype, it has already seeped into your brain a little. Think on that for a while.

I know my post was REALLY long, but yea, I know, I already got there in my post. The problem, which I did touch on in my post but didn't spell out so much (since GOD the post was already long) has more to do with: like it or not, this issue is pretty gender-equalized already. In fiction as a whole, portrayals of men and women are of similar quality. The only difference is, men rarely take issue with the ridiculously stereotyped, trope-ridden portrayals of men. Women suffer WORSE here than men do, but they do not suffer alone, just in ways that are more immediately measurable. Gender inequality in the workplace is fairly quantifiable, to the point where I'm sure you could work out specifics on how much each inch of hip-to-waist ratio is worth.

As for wanting "normal" women in games, that's... a bit of a pipe dream. Successful games seem to need some manner of conflict in them, and "normal" people do terrible in conflicts, and in the end make for lousy protagonists, no matter their gender. Extraordinary people last longer. There are no unflatteringly flabby, out-of-shape office-working male protagonists in fiction, either. The quality of portrayal in men and women is about the same, but a functional yet not very GOOD portrayal of a woman gets you CRUCIFIED, but nobody bats an eyelid about a cardboard-cutout male stereotype parade. Simply put, the standards for writing women are unreasonable; there are not enough truly good writers out there to write the amount of stories humanity wants to be told.

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