Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

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Mortrialus:

Clive Howlitzer:

Mortrialus:

I like your assumption that as a matter of fact you can make everyone happy with a game if you just put enough options in it. You can't. It's why things like genres exist in the first place.

I like my assumption also. That is why I made it. Thank you for noticing!

It's a false assumption. You can stick as many customization options, modes, in a Madden game as you want. I'm not going to be interested in it. The same thing applies to other people regarding Dark Souls.

Thats a terrible example. A football game is not the same as a fantasy 3rd person action game. You aren't not interested because madden doesn't have enough options......you aren't interested in it because its a football game (I'm guessing this).

"Super hard unforgiving action adventure fantasy game" is not a genre. If someone simply does not like a genre, there is probably no overcoming that no matter how many options there are. In a football game, making a mode where the opposing team does nothing but a 10 yard punt when its their ball or make the opposing quarterback run around like a retard won't make a game attractive to you if you don't even like football, let alone football games. But if someone likes something like lets say, darksiders, then dark souls is pretty close, if not the same genre. And something like an easy mode that allows you to take a mega beating from enemies before dying or losing less souls upon death is what would make the game more attractive to more people.

And I'm going to put this out there. An easy mode would benefit you in the long run. More people buying the game = more money for the company that makes it = better/more future games.

So, everyone can win with an easy mode. People who don't have lightning reflexes can play a good game. People who like soul crushing challenge can have their "true" modes to look down upon the little peoples with smug senses of superiority and disdain. A game company makes more money, so they can make even more games with soul crushing "true" difficulty with easy modes.

longboardfan:

Jimothy Sterling:
Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

There are valid concerns with the "dumbing down" of our entertainment, but as with so many issues, there are just as many invalid ones. This is especially true when "inclusiveness" and "dumbing down" are seen as the same thing.

Watch Video

hey hey hey Jim, you remember that episode you did a few months ago about Resident Evil 6 and the "we're trying to attract a wider audience" thing that made it not only suck but destroyed its own genre by becoming ALL of them? I'm sure you remember that episode right? You want me to link it to you?

What gamers are afraid of is having a game series that has a dedicated and devout audience that actually has a game dedicated to their wants from a game becoming RE6: Its Everything and Nothing at All. Oh and the new director, doesn't have a very good track record with games either.

Making a specific game within a specific genre with an easier and more forgiving mode to make it more attractive =/= trying to be the jack of all trades and have several genres within a genre to attract more people and doing them all terrible.

RE6 did the latter.

I don't have time for arguments this week, unfortunately, but let me just address some things briefly before flying off into the night. Once I've said this, I'm done on the topic for now, though I may need to do a new video after the holidays for those who spectacularly missed the point of the video:

The difference between an optional easy mode and the homogenization of videogames is as simple as the difference between Ninja Gaiden Black's "Ninja Dog" mode and Ninja Gaiden 3. One game had an optional extra mode for people who didn't want brutal challenge, and one tore the default experience apart.

Easy modes aren't a new concept, people. Capcom had some of the most hardcore action games around, and they actually offered you an easier mode if you had your ass kicked one too many times. Nobody complained about that. Nobody believes the core Devil May Cry 3 experience was ravaged by multiple difficulties. And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty.

As for my attitude in this video ... uh ... welcome to the Jimquisition? Apparently it's okay for me to have this attitude when it's people you don't agree with -- not so now. Should I reshoot the video in a non-condescending "easy mode" format for you?

girzwald:
[quote="Mortrialus" post="6.395777.16095202"]snip

But didn't you read the posts from Korten? If they were to add an easy mode then they'd have to completely rebuild the game from the ground up! He said it over and over again so it must be true!

EDIT: Awh...quote snip fail :(

I just love how far this thread has gotten since we all should know bickering about it here isn't going to change the game getting another mode and hey if you don't like it like many seem to parrot here a lot (without thinking it insults most people) Maybe it's not your cup of tea? (anymore)

Seriously this whole thread is in a right state with people pulling out anything in order to crush the people who don't mind or would like an easy mode and again whether you like it or not that does come off as an elite type of action where as you could just accept the game is going to have that mode or just move onto something else because quite frankly I can't see the majority of you here just playing the one series and completely nothing else while claiming it's the only hardest game in the history of video games because that would be quite subjective.

Please for those that want to bash others because they "don't get how the game works or how it was designed" think for just a moment because some people won't understand and some will and still not agree with what you say so let it slide and move on or just find something else to keep you pre occupied from raging at someone else's understanding.

Honestly I've played Dark souls after my room mate was done playing it and while it was ok I didn't exactly feel that overall sense of accomplishment because I'm that type of player that can want a challenge sometimes and sometimes I just want to admire what else a game has to offer and not everyone likes getting bitch slapped in a game hundreds of times over and be expected to enjoy the thrashing.

immortalfrieza:

keosegg:
I personally think that every game should have an easy mode. Video games are the only medium that REQUIRES you to be skilled at the medium in order for you to enjoy it. Unlike music and movies, where all you need is the ability to hear and see, video games require you to be skilled at them.

You forget sports, football, basketball, games like chess, etc. at least if you are participating instead of just watching.

I probably should have said "Artistic Mediums". I didn't include those because in my opinion, those aren't artistic mediums.

immortalfrieza:

keosegg:

In order to make a proper judgement on a work you should preferably experience it in its entirety; listen to the whole song/watch the whole movie. As I said before, none of this requires much skill which means everyone can experience the work. Why should video games be any different?

The same reason either of us wouldn't watch football all day long and expect to have John Madden or whoever waltz into our houses and be offer an NFL contract without either of us having played a single game of football in our lives, or spontaneously gain achievements for Skyrim on our 360s for watching a let's play video on Youtube. Just like sports video games are something you have to EARN your way through, and there would be no point in doing either otherwise.

In my opinion, the message/story/themes behind the work is the most important thing, and that should always be experienced in its entirety. It also shouldn't be something that has to be earned or worked for in non-conceptual sense.

What I mean by that is that it's all well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "The author's word choice is doing my head in, he's using words that usually mean one thing one thing but he's using them in a sentence to say the complete opposite. I don't get it."

It's not well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "God dammit, I can barely read a word of this, the author's handwriting is terrible."

Anyway, the message/story/themes should be given to the viewer freely without fuss. I don't want to have to tear four fifths of my hair out in frustration because I died for the umpteenth time while fighting the same boss in order to experience the message/story/themes. I want it given to me ASAP so I can mull it over afterwards, pull it apart in my head, read the text and subtext and try to figure out which side I should be joining in the shipping wars.

Coruptin:

keosegg:
Snip

What if difficulty, or the reason for difficulty, was essential to the experience of a video game though?

You make a good point, however, I would still argue for the inclusion of easy mode simply for acclimatisation. Get people to learn how to swim in the shallow end before they go into the deep end. That way they can experience the game without the hair rending frustration.

StriderShinryu:

keosegg:
Snip

I see this as a false analogy. Viewing a painting only requires me to look at it, but that doesn't mean I understand it's meaning. Reading a book may only require me to open it up and look at the words, but that doesn't mean I automatically understand what's been written. Sure if it's Twilight, I might get it, but if it's a book on theories of thermodynamics or a book of Shakespeares plays written in their original English it's not a given that I'm going to understand it without further study, time and patience. Same with movies. I can watch any movie, but if it's an experimental piece or even something with a really complex plot I may not really understand it at all. The same goes with music. Put on some free form jazz. Everyone with the ability to hear will be able to hear the music, but some will experience it as noise they won't be able to sit through, some will hear amazing music.

The thing is, everything you mentioned all happens in the mind, you're tying to figure out the meaning of the painting/movie/song/book in your head. I should have also mentioned that I was only talking about artistic mediums, so your point about books about the theories of thermodynamics or a book of Shakespeare's plays written in their original English doesn't apply, since they're usually read for academic purposes.

StriderShinryu:
The fact is, any entertainment medium is created by a person/team with a set vision and a set audience, and every medium contains numerous examples that are, quite frankly, not designed to be enjoyed by everyone. There's no reason that videogames should be any different.

You're completely right, but I still think that the thing that decides whether or not a person enjoys a work should be decided entirely in one's head. It should be because you don't agree with the message, or you didn't like the story, or that you believed that Richard and Door should have gotten together because they're perfect for each other AND WHY CAN'T ANYONE ELSE SEE IT?!

*Ahem*

So, in conclusion. The thing that decides what work people enjoy should be conceptual, rather than physical.

Honestly, a lot of these people who whine about difficulty seem to be petty and just wanting their own personal "club" to be able to play it.

Case in point, the new XCOM game.

I'm playing it on Normal Ironman. And I'm having a BLAST. While it's not excessively hard, one small screw up can cost you the whole game. I lost 3 of my best units the other day due to 2 bad tactical decisions and it REALLY hurt. So there I am weighing tactical decisions and moving very very carefully and methodically...

And then half the topics on the steam community thing are people going "WAAAAAAH DEY DUMBED IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!11!!!1! SO ESY NO CHALLENGEDURRR CONSOLE TARDS DUMB DOWN DURRR NO NEED TO THINK!!!!". And when other players remind them that in the original game it was less about tactics than it was about counting how many time units it would take to make a move, and how you could just give every soldier any gun and tons of grenades and make EVERYONE kickass (new game randomly assigns "classes" that can only use specific weapons, and you have a VERY limited number of grenades), the whiners tell them that the new game isn't fun because it's "stupid" that you can't carry tons of grenades...despite the fact that it would make the game super easy, and they also say that the TUs made you "think", whereas the new game doesn't (which they never explain).

One guy, when faced with the argument of "Look, not all games need to have such complicated systems that you need to know how to run a nuclear power plant in order to play them (ie, Dwarf Fortress)", replied with "But unless it's like that it's boring and you don't even need to think, so it's for casualtards" (paraphrased). >_<

It's aggravating. XCOM EU is one of the most deep, tactical games I've played in a LONG LONG time. And yet so many people are whining because it made the game more accessible and easy to understand while still being deep. >_<

anthony87:

girzwald:
[quote="Mortrialus" post="6.395777.16095202"]snip

But didn't you read the posts from Korten? If they were to add an easy mode then they'd have to completely rebuild the game from the ground up! He said it over and over again so it must be true!

EDIT: Awh...quote snip fail :(

You're right. Saying something over and over again, or in all caps, makes it fact. I guess I'll have to break out the fact breaking "Nuh uh!"

I just hope he knows not the secret counter which is "uh huh!"

Blast, I typed it and my backspace and delete key are broken. O well.

Okay, fuck, one more thing I need to say:

Please remember how skilled you are. Those of you saying Dark Souls' appeal is its challenge, and that it would be ruined without the challenge there, remember that easy mode WOULD NOT BE FOR YOU. It would be for people who find normal *impossible*, and therefore could be readily challenged by an easy mode. Yes, easy mode might be too easy for you, but you're a longtime gamer -- not everybody is.

Again, this goes back to people acting like THEY'RE the ones playing on easy. It wouldn't be for you. You'd still have normal. Easy doesn't mean, "Beatable by anybody." It means easy as compared to the default experience. That can still be damn hard if your skill level is at such a point that Normal is too much for you. I know it can be tough to empathize with people who aren't you, but doing so may allow you to see the point I am making.

Jimothy Sterling:
I don't have time for arguments this week, unfortunately, but let me just address some things briefly before flying off into the night. Once I've said this, I'm done on the topic for now, though I may need to do a new video after the holidays for those who spectacularly missed the point of the video:

The difference between an optional easy mode and the homogenization of videogames is as simple as the difference between Ninja Gaiden Black's "Ninja Dog" mode and Ninja Gaiden 3. One game had an optional extra mode for people who didn't want brutal challenge, and one tore the default experience apart.

Easy modes aren't a new concept, people. Capcom had some of the most hardcore action games around, and they actually offered you an easier mode if you had your ass kicked one too many times. Nobody complained about that. Nobody believes the core Devil May Cry 3 experience was ravaged by multiple difficulties. And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty.

As for my attitude in this video ... uh ... welcome to the Jimquisition? Apparently it's okay for me to have this attitude when it's people you don't agree with -- not so now. Should I reshoot the video in a non-condescending "easy mode" format for you?

I know you said you weren't going to argue, and no, i don't necesarily mind the attack. It's just that reason behind the attack seemed remarkably flawed to me, and that you seemed to miss an extremely important point.

We loves the sarcasms and the what not, just seems you missed the pulse a bit here, so it came off as kind of.. well, self-deprecatingly ironic.

And, besides which, as many people have said, the core design of the entire world doesn't lend itself to be able to be done in "easy" mode without changing a hell of a lot of how the game is designed.

AND, had you played DS, you would realise how great a community it is that plays that game, and how welcoming we are to new/inexperienced/struggling players.

Gah edits:

And as i said in a post on page 1, it is mostly MOSTLY the imbalance of multiplayer that concerns me the most, and how hard and costly it would be to keep fair for everyone. Unless you just kept "easy mode" as offline play only, but then they are still missing a huge part of the game. It's just not that easy with Dark Souls, though i wish it were sometimes, because i love sharing my adventures in the world

Sidney Buit:

Rooster Cogburn:
It's amazing, Dark Souls probably has the most incredible and mature community out there with the worst reputation. People just make assumptions about us based on what we like.

Just by reading 4 pages of this thread, I can tell you that the reputation isn't undeserved. Thus far, people who would like an easier option in the game have been told "you just don't get it"

That doesn't sound like a big deal to me. I've been called an Elitist ass-hat, a douche, a brat, and all kinds of nasty things. Being told you don't "get" something by its fans is hardly comparable.

- like Dark Souls is some kind of philosophical abstract painting. This is the type of bogus thing said by hipsters when you tell them that something is boring and/or offensive to the eyes.

A philosophical abstract painting is exactly what Dark Souls is like to some of us. Even if we're wrong, how are you perceiving that as an attack? You have obviously made up your mind about this and don't want to know where we are coming from about it. You have decided our mindset is rooted in hipsterism, so why should you care if we get the shaft? We've got it coming, right? So it's hard to follow when you say what the game should be like. You know it will affect us, but you don't care, because you have something against us.

If you don't like our taste in art, fine, but you don't have to burn our paintings.

We've also been told that "the game's encounter design precludes an easy mode." Which is bogus in every way imaginable.

No it isn't. The reason we are able to have such a crafted, uncompromising experience is precisely because the experience is uniform and does not have to account for the needs of a split audience. What you are suggesting is like saying Civilization 6 HAS to have a fully featured golf simulator. And then you call us hipsters when we point out that is not compatible with the vision of the series we are already fans of.

Want to make the game easier without changing anything? Cut the damage done by enemies attacks by 1/2 and double the number of spells you can cast. Done. Now a single hit by a random zombie doesn't make that entire life forfeit.

That changes EVERYTHING. It doesn't work well for Skyrim and it's out of the question for Dark Souls. In practice, each encounter will have to be crafted for the needs of both modes and pretending they won't do that seems to me like denying the obvious. Are they going to leave Bed of Chaos the same with half damage? No. Iron Golem? No. Sen's Fortress traps? No. Lord Gwyn? No. They all need to be changed for the needs of the audience playing the easy mode.

In addition, what makes Ornstein and Smough so gripping on an EMOTIONAL level is the very fact that I CAN'T flip a switch and turn them into bunny rabbits. They are a MEANINGFUL obstacle as opposed to a TRIVIAL one of the players own creation. This game has dark themes of isolation, fear, and dread. Having obstacles that are ACTUAL obstacles supports those themes. It makes us feel we are having an EXPERIENCE, not just consuming a good. Why take that away from us? Could you not find any games that had easy mode in them?

Totally beside that, this guts the content of the game. Don't just think 'half damage = half difficult' because that is simplistic, and inaccurate. So your example is easier, but HOW is it easier? Does it reduce the need for lightning fast reflexes? No, there aren't any. Does it reduce the need for complicated builds? There aren't any. Complicated strategies? Nah. Precise aiming? Nope. Precise timing then? No. What you are actually doing in this case is eliminating the need for players to learn to overcome encounters and explore the mechanics by allowing them to proceed without learning. But that's the whole game! This is not comparable to easy mode in other games, this is comparable to designing the entire game of Starcraft to account for the needs of people who hate strategy! Dark Souls doesn't need an easy mode in the way that Starcraft doesn't need an FPS mode.

Just changing the stats and calling it a new difficulty mode is something people already complain about when developers do it. Your solution is not going to make anyone happy even if by some miracle the normal mode ended up unaffected (which is virtually impossible). What are all these easy mode players going to do? They'll be left with shitty, uneven encounters, half of which won't actually be any easier. They won't care about the story, or they will think it sucks, and they probably won't even know it's there. There will be no gameplay for them to speak of except what to them will seem like a clunky third person action game. There will be no cutscenes. Only a very short, very shitty action RPG with no story. No one is going to appreciate the easy mode once they have it.

This is a game with the tagline "PREPARE TO DIE". It is specifically designed around it's difficulty on a conceptual and mechanical level. One of the things you "don't get" is that Dark Souls is a difficulty game in a roughly equivalent sense that Starcraft is an RTS game. You are asking for a fundamentally different experience whether you realize it or not.

How can you people possibly deny that focusing on a single experience directed toward a focused audience frees up the developer in all sorts of ways? Everything about this game is dense and impenetrable and limiting and unique by design. It's fucking DARK SOULS. From Software is able to make it this way precisely because it is directed toward a particular niche. I don't understand why you are doing this. I didn't take YOUR toys away! What is even motivating you people to do this to me?! Is there an easy game shortage or something? Can't you just live and let live? Why can't there be a place in video games for people like me? I just don't get it.

I can understand wanting to keep the game the way you like it, but attacking people who find the game boring or aggravating (I'm in the latter category) is absolutely the wrong way to do so. And that is what Dark Souls' fan base has taken to doing.

That is an exact inversion of what is happening here. From Jim's video to this thread, Dark Souls fans are overwhelming being attacked and not the attackers. That's how it always is. But WE'RE the bad guys. /sigh

Rooster Cogburn:
[quote="Sidney Buit" post="6.395777.16095226"]snip

So then don't play the easy mode. Imagine if you will, that Dark Souls as it is now is actually the "Normal Mode" while there's also an OPTIONAL "Easy Mode" where you have extra health, bosses and enemies hit for less and you don't lose souls when you die. Sounds shite right? Then don't play it. Stick to "Normal Mode" let the people who aren't as good at the game play the "Easy Mode", everyone is happy.

You know I really f*&#ing hate lady gaga she should start playing more drum and bass at her gigs then i'd like it and maybe go.... If you don't like something go and play with a different toy you do like don't break my shit because you feel like your missing out.
I couldn't care if you don't understand my disgust at how god awful the something for everyone in every game is. how the dumbing down of everything to flashy lights press one button to win with no thought or any challenge has turned gaming into a steaming pile of shite but that's just my opinion. More people play now than ever before but man do the masses miss the point of most games they get a bonner over 10 achievement points and cry when they need to use that half a brain cell or god forbid learn how to play a game where one attack doesn't kill everything it touches.

ITT: People who don't have even the tiniest bit of self-control and must pick "Easy Mode" no matter what.

What the fuck is wrong with so many of you guys? You really can't play a game on anything than the easiest difficulty? If that's the case, you don't have the right to complain about anything because you are the reason why games are dumbed down on a daily basis.

I don't remember the last time I played anything than the highest difficulty except when I was forced to. (who in the name of Princess Peach thought it's a good idea to force me to play trough Normal before unlocking Hard and than to play on Hard before unlocking Very Hard? Who is that persons? Why wasn't he burned to death already?)

girzwald:

You're right. Saying something over and over again, or in all caps, makes it fact. I guess I'll have to break out the fact breaking "Nuh uh!"

I just hope he knows not the secret counter which is "uh huh!"

Blast, I typed it and my backspace and delete key are broken. O well.

anthony87:

But didn't you read the posts from Korten? If they were to add an easy mode then they'd have to completely rebuild the game from the ground up! He said it over and over again so it must be true!

EDIT: Awh...quote snip fail :(

Good to know that my long and detailed posts get ignored. Because yeah it was all caps. Not like on the last page I went over the game and explained what would need to change. Nope I did not. Not at all. /sarcasm.

Jimothy Sterling:
Okay, fuck, one more thing I need to say:

Please remember how skilled you are. Those of you saying Dark Souls' appeal is its challenge, and that it would be ruined without the challenge there, remember that easy mode WOULD NOT BE FOR YOU. It would be for people who find normal *impossible*, and therefore could be readily challenged by an easy mode. Yes, easy mode might be too easy for you, but you're a longtime gamer -- not everybody is.

Again, this goes back to people acting like THEY'RE the ones playing on easy. It wouldn't be for you. You'd still have normal. Easy doesn't mean, "Beatable by anybody." It means easy as compared to the default experience. That can still be damn hard if your skill level is at such a point that Normal is too much for you. I know it can be tough to empathize with people who aren't you, but doing so may allow you to see the point I am making.

Jim here is a repost of why an Easy Mode doesn't work. Not because people are not skilled:

Going to throw in my two cents as a dark souls fan, even if I have yet to beat the game.
Firstly people keep comparing dark souls to the like of DMC, NG, and such, however this comparison does not work. In those games the difficulty comes from reaction times and performing combos well, this is a skill that lends itself well to a difficulty curve based on ones personally reaction time, I for one could beat Bayonetta on normal but the first stage of hard cleaved my ass in half because my reactions were to slow.
In Dark Souls however reaction times is not the main cause of difficulty, at least not the main cause. In that game its very much slow and steady wins the race. If one goes slowly and/or is paranoid (in my case) you do better for it. If you are in the mindset that there is something bad around every corner then you are not taken by surprise nearly as often then if you ran in guns blazin'. Also for those that have not had the chance to play let me give examples of why increases your health or lowering the enemies would not change the difficulty much. In the game there is a place called sens fortress that houses many classic traps, blades pendulums, boulders, spike traps, and so on. These traps can kill you, pendulums mostly, no matter how much hp you have because they knock you off ledges. Another part of the game has archers with bloody big ass bows that kill you because they knock you off ledges. Areas that have poison and low visibility because its a swamp, enemies that can curse you, and so on. Its the basic fundamentals of the game that people need to learn that keep them alive, when I play I always remember to top off my health if even a quarter lower then full, because I know that something dangerous could be just around the corner and if I get cocky my ass will get turned to paste quickly.
Also another point to bring up, this game has a leveling system and weapon/armor upgrade system, if the game is giving you trouble you can just level up a bit or get better weapons, or just summon a friend.
Also another reason that DS does not work with an easy mode is that dying is a part of the game, in many games you dying resets the world like it never happened. In DK thats not the case, there is an in-game explanation as to why you keep re-spawning, its part of the very core of the game, you are an undead who does not die, you keep coming back.
Also to those that make the point that an easy mode would not effect the "hardcore" fans, beside the obvious fact that it would take time and money away from other parts of the game, the reason we are up in arms is at least in my case fear, and something quite legitimate. How many times have we seen games start hard and get easier as time goes by and they simplify things more and more. How many hard games, games made to be hard not just hard on accident, are there left? While there plenty of challenges in games few are made for the core purpose of being challenging. Thats why we get concerned when the idea of an easy mode is thrown around without thought, we have seen this song and dance before and we don't want one of the last "hard" games to fall like many before.

to all you people saying so don't play the easy mode hay why don't you go play something else? why do you need to break the game of all it's value? dark souls is easy it's so fking easy people do level 1 runs all you need to do is learn a few basic things but i guess thats too hard for the entitled gamer of today. dark souls on easy would be boring as hell and finished in under 5 hours.

Seth Carter:
A fair argument. Simple solution, lock the difficulty in (or only let it move up from the initial setting). I'm not sure what the encoutner bits about.

I appreciate the suggestion because it seems like you're trying to account for my needs and meet me half way. Unfortunately, it doesn't really solve the problem on my end. What I'm asking for is tension, genuine apprehension and fear on an emotional level. Emotionally, knowing that I could have turned Gaping Dragon into a bunny rabbit isn't very different from knowing that I still can.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a way around this. What I'm asking for can't be faked. I would feel the difference.

Rather then bloat the post, I've spoiler tagged my brief summary of Dark Souls below which actually does contain praise.

Artists put their paintings in public museums, they don't put it up in a tower you have to scale. I can't think of a musician that recorded his music on 6 copies (I'e handed out a least 1000 tapes and I'm not even a signed artist) and said "Whatever, thats enough". Books are published and sold to whoever buys them. Granted, the difficulty (or perception thereof) doesn't explicitly prevent anyone from playing the game, but I can understand that whoever wants more people to enjoy their work.

And game franchises frequently sell out their existing fan-base in favor of the kinds of people who won't play Dark Souls unless it has an easy mode. I'm not making a profit from this, I just want the best game I can have. I don't think it makes any sense to add easy mode to Dark Souls but leave it in it's current, impenetrable-as-a-feature, state. If this were any other game, of course, add easy mode. Obviously. But this is a difficulty game in the sense that Halo is an FPS.

I can't help but think the only reason you are saying all this is because you think I don't want everyone to play Dark Souls. That is backward. But I want everyone to appreciate it for what it is, not turn it into Madden or Devil May Cry or something I don't even recognize. I think the niche that actually appreciates Dark Souls for what it is deserves to have a game every few years. I don't feel like I'm asking a lot or making an imposition on anybody.

Dark Souls is a parody of the game industry. It's literally a reaction to easy, spoon-feeding games. The idea of wanting to put an easy mode in makes my head explode. I can't wrap my mind around the presumption of people who don't like it and don't care about it telling the fans what kind of game it should be. People should play whatever the fuck it is they play and leave me alone.

Korten12:
snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

anthony87:

Korten12:
snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

How is it wrong? You don't give examples all you say is: "IT's WRONG BECAUSE... WELL IT'S WRONG."

We have explained nearly essays of work that cover any corner of why it doesn't work and then we get responses like yours that don't even try to argue but just ignore it and say that it's wrong without reason. You say we're smug but don't even both to actually debate.

anthony87:

Korten12:
snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

Ok so how would taking less damage help against swinging blades that knock you off ledges? Giant arrows that do the same? What about if you went to an area with poison, swamp lets say, and you had no antidote type items? would taking less or giving more damage help?

Korten12:

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

girzwald:

Korten12:

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

Ok here is my question, would you be willing to pay 10-20 bucks more for the easy version to offset the cost it takes to make the easy version?

girzwald:

Korten12:

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

I'm very interested to know what you think "the core game play" of Dark Souls is.

Also, you're just reaffirming Korten12's point. If he is wrong you should be able to tell him why. But posts like this make it seem like you haven't given the matter a moment's thought.

BioRex:

anthony87:

Korten12:
snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

Ok so how would taking less damage help against swinging blades that knock you off ledges? Giant arrows that do the same? What about if you went to an area with poison, swamp lets say, and you had no antidote type items? would taking less or giving more damage help?

Easy mode doesn't just mean less damage. And nobody said something like "omg just half the damage and bam, its an easy mode". So really, your argument is nothing but a strawman.

But let me tackle your omg can't be fixed in easy mode mechanics.............ummm.......... oh ghosh. How would one deal with knokbacks that knock you off ledges oh, I dunno, remove/nerf the knockback? And a swamp... hmmmmmm, remove the poison? Make it do less damage? Make it wear off fast?

My god, I'm a genius game designer.

the core game play is learn from your mistakes and the feeling of overcoming a challenge all would not be present with easy mode...I ask again, If you don't like it why do you feel like you are misding out so much you would rather break it for those who do like it than play something else?

Rooster Cogburn:

girzwald:

Korten12:

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

I'm very interested to know what you think "the core game play" of Dark Souls is.

I am starting to think there is no point. :/ I know you are also on the side of "No Easy Mode," and how do you feel about my posts? Are they helping or am I just as they're saying. Just saying: "OMG IT WONT WORK."

I was afraid that the flames had died down and the rancor from a few months back with the proposition of an Easy Dark Souls had abaited. I'm glad to see this is not the case, and this thread isn't full of people simply congratulating Jim on another episode. That's nice and all, but the circlejerks get a little tiring after awhile.

Now to read some of the posts vainly arguing that being hard is what makes Dark Souls a real man's game. Or maybe not in vain, seeing as the producers have yet to do anything.

A senior friend in school once told me that Japanese games have no easy mode. They simply add it to the US port because they know we can't handle it. This is very likely a lie, but that stuck with me and I have yet to play a game on less than medium. I do not begrudge people playing games on easy however, and I do not go out of my way to play 'hard' games. If that's one of its selling points, odds are I'll avoid it.

Dark Souls already has an easy mode, it's called playing online and summoning a sunbro.

Engage in jolly cooperation!!

EDIT: For those who haven't played the game or that far into it because of the supposed difficulty, there is a special guild in the game for people like me called sunbros. Our soul purpose is to help others and make their experience better/easier and we are rewarded for it. I do my job faithfully and with glee.

BioRex:

Ok here is my question, would you be willing to pay 10-20 bucks more for the easy version to offset the cost it takes to make the easy version?

False premise. Who would say it would cost 10-20 bucks in addition to the person BUYING THE GAME in order to make it cost effective to make an easy mode?

So no, I would NOT pay 10-20 bucks for an easy version of the game because it would not cost that much to produce an easy mode for a already made game.

JustanotherGamer:
the core game play is learn from your mistakes and the feeling of overcoming a challenge all would not be present with easy mode...I ask again, If you don't like it why do you feel like you are misding out so much you would rather break it for those who do like it than play something else?

The extent to which this topic has been distorted, inverted, and turned on it's head is just crazy. The people who have pretty much taken over gaming and kicked us out of the club are acting like they're the victims of our aggression at the very moment they are storming our last bastion.

Jimothy Sterling:
Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

There are valid concerns with the "dumbing down" of our entertainment, but as with so many issues, there are just as many invalid ones. This is especially true when "inclusiveness" and "dumbing down" are seen as the same thing.

Watch Video

Wasn't too impressed with this one. Nobody worth taking seriously is arguing against the things you talk about in this video. It's the things that aren't optional that people complain about. Saying 'hey guys look at all these optional things, they're ok, chill out!' is kind of missing the point.

girzwald:

BioRex:

Ok here is my question, would you be willing to pay 10-20 bucks more for the easy version to offset the cost it takes to make the easy version?

False premise. Who would say it would cost 10-20 bucks in addition to the person BUYING THE GAME in order to make it cost effective to make an easy mode?

So no, I would NOT pay 10-20 bucks for an easy version of the game because it would not cost that much to produce an easy mode for a already made game.

But what of the newer games in the series? Wasting the time and money on an easier mode in that game that could have gone to making the existing formula better for the established audience. You know, those people that helped make the game infamous and successful in the first place?

keosegg:

In my opinion, the message/story/themes behind the work is the most important thing, and that should always be experienced in its entirety. It also shouldn't be something that has to be earned or worked for in non-conceptual sense.

What I mean by that is that it's all well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "The author's word choice is doing my head in, he's using words that usually mean one thing one thing but he's using them in a sentence to say the complete opposite. I don't get it."

It's not well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "God dammit, I can barely read a word of this, the author's handwriting is terrible."

Anyway, the message/story/themes should be given to the viewer freely without fuss. I don't want to have to tear four fifths of my hair out in frustration because I died for the umpteenth time while fighting the same boss in order to experience the message/story/themes. I want it given to me ASAP so I can mull it over afterwards, pull it apart in my head, read the text and subtext and try to figure out which side I should be joining in the shipping wars.

The message of Dark Souls, the theme of Dark Souls.. that's given to you VIA the mechanics. Why are people like you so desperate to utterly ignore the interactive nature of gaming, the thing that makes it near-unique among artistic mediums and just treat gaming like a movie, or a manuscript?

The mechanics of a game are just as valid a way for the themes of the game to come across as the art design, the sound design or the storyline. The brutal nature of the game, of the mechanics in Dark Souls, they teach you something about the world.

By means of counter example, I give you Halo. Now, in the Halo storyline, the UNSC forces are being hammered on all fronts and on the verge of losing the war. Yet, if you play on the easiest difficulty, you can walk into the enemy forces and massacre them. There is a dissonance between the gameplay and the storyline that is being told. This sort of thing is, at the moment, very common in gaming.

Dark Souls doesn't do that. It's very rare among gaming in that the mechanics of the game and the storyline compliment one another. The world of Dark Souls is brutal, unforgiving and solely dying. The mechanics of Dark Souls are brutal, unforgiving.. and you'll die a lot.

Please, stop trying to destroy this almost unique example of mechanics and storyline working in harmony.

Now, as a secondary point, if you do find the game too difficult, then get better at it. There are countless wikis and videos out there designed to help people out, all created by the Dark Souls fanbase. If you're stuck on a boss, summon aid.. again, that's the Dark Souls fanbase helping out new players. We WANT people to be able to experience this wonderful game, but we don't want to lose what's wonderful about it in the process. If that's an example of elitism, then I'll wear that label proudly.

girzwald:

BioRex:

anthony87:

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

Ok so how would taking less damage help against swinging blades that knock you off ledges? Giant arrows that do the same? What about if you went to an area with poison, swamp lets say, and you had no antidote type items? would taking less or giving more damage help?

Easy mode doesn't just mean less damage. And nobody said something like "omg just half the damage and bam, its an easy mode". So really, your argument is nothing but a strawman.

But let me tackle your omg can't be fixed in easy mode mechanics.............ummm.......... oh ghosh. How would one deal with knokbacks that knock you off ledges oh, I dunno, remove/nerf the knockback? And a swamp... hmmmmmm, remove the poison? Make it do less damage? Make it wear off fast?

My god, I'm a genius game designer.

Ok so you advocating a deep re-design of the entire game as opposed to what as been suggested in the past. And do really need to quote people that have stated that the way to make an easy mode was by lowering the damage? Look a page back or two and you can find being making that argument. Also you idea of how to make an easy mode is that you can't fall of ledges? Well that sure is a great idea, I know lets apply that to all games where you can fall to death, it's truly unfair that you can die in Mario by missing you jump. Pits should be done away with all together!

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