What We Want

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Desert Punk:

Flames66:

Desert Punk:
HAH! THat was awesome

And for those who are getting the same error as I am heres the punchline:
image

Love the cardboard cut out in the last frame, thats fucking perfect.

I still don't get it. Can has explanation?

Sure, I will repost the explanation I made earlier about it.

Desert Punk:

canadamus_prime:
So all we want is ultra violence? Is that the joke? Also what's with the Invisible Man?

Its not an invisible man.

its a Suit. People in charge of companies that are fairly faceless and bureaucratic are called Suits, they have no personality, all about the numbers ect.

And its not really about violence, it is about the fact that people are all comparing Last of Us to Citizen Kane in its impact and depth, and in gaming things have to be turned up to 11 and marketing says people like actiony covers acording to the folk that made Bioshock Infinite.

Thus its SUPER Citizen Kane, where Kane is


over his shoulder like Dewit was holding a shotgun so the pose is more action oriented, and battlefield is a very popular cover as well so they mimicked that as well.

And sorry for double quotes, just wanted to make sure Flames got an inbox notification ^.^

Thanks, that makes slightly more sense. I don't really keep up with a large portion of popular culture (anything that isn't references to things I like or based on hats).

I like the suit though. I have been referring to them as suits for a while now, I also call what they do "paper" (in the most disdainful tone I can muster).

Heheh.

Yeah, that phrase is getting pretty damn tired. I wish they could come up with a different way of praising good games, even if only for the sake of variety.

I've never actually seen Citizen Kane. Perhaps I should.

canadamus_prime:

Desert Punk:

canadamus_prime:

But I still have to question why it's considered that benchmark that we need to meet. Putting aside the other question of why we feel the need to keep up with the film industry instead of forging our own identity.

Because Film is the media we most closely resemble, we are nothing like writing, music, or performance art.

And the reason it was a bench mark is because it did so many things fundamentally different to other films of it time and changed film making forever. THAT is the bench mark gaming needs, a fundamental shift in how things are done for the better that will enhance the medium as a whole.

Except the video games are interactive and films are not. That's a pretty big difference. And thus I don't see why we should be using a film as a benchmark.

Its what the film REPRESENTS thats the benchmark, IE a fundamental shift in how things are done, not the actual content of the different mediums.... ~.~

If you dont understand what I am getting at still, I guess we will just have to part ways, as I am not sure how else I could explain it... You will just have to take my word that it is a generally good thing.

Blood Brain Barrier:

Ishal:
I laughed at this.

But I wish Videogames would stop being compared to movies. The two mediums should be going in different directions not having one trying its best to emulate the other.

This is why I'm on the Suit's side rather than Erin's. Emotionally engaging characters are for movies, not games.

Well, crap. Text adventures just got WAY more difficult to write. Thanks.

OT: I wish they'd make "Citizen Kane" a game genre. I'd peruse it.

canadamus_prime:
But I still have to question why it's considered that benchmark that we need to meet. Putting aside the other question of why we feel the need to keep up with the film industry instead of forging our own identity.

Because the gaming industry, for all it's billions of dollars of revenue, still has a big selfesteem problem. And also still has the image of being toy manufacturers, and providers of shallow indulgence, thus nothing to grant any serious attention.

That's why so many games try to go all Hollywood blockbuster. As if to say,"See, see, we can be just like you. Can we come to your party now?"

Ishal:
I laughed at this.

But I wish Videogames would stop being compared to movies. The two mediums should be going in different directions not having one trying its best to emulate the other.

Yeah, I think we know what happens when we don't know what distinguishes the two.

image

And I don't want my games to become "choose the ending!" scenarios. I think stuff like Bioshock Infinite tried so hard to be movie-ish and artsy, to the extent where the shooty bits felt juvenile. The difference between games and movies is games don't need stories to be fun, they just need a premise, that's why they're games...

...*mumble*...Timesplitters 1...

Blood Brain Barrier:

Ishal:
I laughed at this.

But I wish Videogames would stop being compared to movies. The two mediums should be going in different directions not having one trying its best to emulate the other.

This is why I'm on the Suit's side rather than Erin's. Emotionally engaging characters are for movies, not games.

I love emotionally engaging characters. I love Mass Effect. But I also love Dark Souls.

It comes down to selfishness on my part. Dark Souls was able to give me a degree of feelings (good and bad) and level of fun and enjoyment a movie never could. Interactive media like games aren't like movies. Film and TV were the most recent media to be recognized as art forms, gamers are self conscious about not yet having this for their medium. I just think it doesn't matter.

Games shouldn't down play their most impressive and unique elements just so some people can stand up on a cliff and proclaim "See!! Vidja garmez is art!" to a crowd that ultimately doesn't matter and who will never consider them art anyway.

I should play The Last of Us.

Headsprouter:

Ishal:
I laughed at this.

But I wish Videogames would stop being compared to movies. The two mediums should be going in different directions not having one trying its best to emulate the other.

Yeah, I think we know what happens when we don't know what distinguishes the two.

image

And I don't want my games to become "choose the ending!" scenarios. I think stuff like Bioshock Infinite tried so hard to be movie-ish and artsy, to the extent where the shooty bits felt juvenile. The difference between games and movies is games don't need stories to be fun, they just need a premise, that's why they're games...

...*mumble*...Timesplitters 1...

They need a premise that allows you to create your own story. Games can be movies... (they shouldn't be, but they can be). BUT, movies can't be games. I think that is the important part. One has more options to work with than the other, and that is what makes it great. I see that. We've all seen that as gamers, I just don't see why we need to proclaim to the world that there can be a citizen kane of gaming. Roger Ebert said it himself... he said he didn't think games are art, but then he said the most important thing. " Why do you care what I think? I'm a film critic "

Zachary Amaranth:

DVS BSTrD:
Grey a LOT of people aren't going to get this one. Because we can't see the punchline!

I thought the joke was quite transparent.

Most people couldn't see the third panel. There are two jokes in this comic. The second one was obscured with advertisements. Which in itself is a nice commentary on the current state of the internet where it has become the new TV which is entirely advertisement funded.

The only problem with this is that Citizen Kane isn't a very good movie; I remain convinced that the only reason critics and reviewers keep saying the movie is so good and keeps being put at the top of the AFI's Top 100 Movies list is because its essentially a giant circle-jerk/trolling party by the film industry.

The documentary about how the film was made is actually a better movie than the movie itself.

I get it, but I don't quite get why the guy in the suit is invisible.

Desert Punk:

canadamus_prime:

Desert Punk:

Because Film is the media we most closely resemble, we are nothing like writing, music, or performance art.

And the reason it was a bench mark is because it did so many things fundamentally different to other films of it time and changed film making forever. THAT is the bench mark gaming needs, a fundamental shift in how things are done for the better that will enhance the medium as a whole.

Except the video games are interactive and films are not. That's a pretty big difference. And thus I don't see why we should be using a film as a benchmark.

Its what the film REPRESENTS thats the benchmark, IE a fundamental shift in how things are done, not the actual content of the different mediums.... ~.~

If you dont understand what I am getting at still, I guess we will just have to part ways, as I am not sure how else I could explain it... You will just have to take my word that it is a generally good thing.

Yeah, I get that. Maybe I just don't understand why we need out own Citizen Kane. Although doing something different now and then wouldn't be a bad idea.

Casual Shinji:

canadamus_prime:
But I still have to question why it's considered that benchmark that we need to meet. Putting aside the other question of why we feel the need to keep up with the film industry instead of forging our own identity.

Because the gaming industry, for all it's billions of dollars of revenue, still has a big selfesteem problem. And also still has the image of being toy manufacturers, and providers of shallow indulgence, thus nothing to grant any serious attention.

That's why so many games try to go all Hollywood blockbuster. As if to say,"See, see, we can be just like you. Can we come to your party now?"

Instead of maybe embracing the image of a toy manufacturer and running with it.

Doclector:
I get it, but I don't quite get why the guy in the suit is invisible.

I take it you've never heard the term "Empty suit". It's basically an executive who doesn't do anything or doesn't do anything well.

Please tell me I'm not the only one who got the "Empty suit" joke right off the bat.

Legion:
The problem is that I have never seen Citizen Kane nor read any reviews of The Last of Us (except the Escapists).

I should probably read some reviews and watch Citizen Kane...

That doesn't really matter. As far as I can tell the joke is gaming executives seeing "Citizen Kane of gaming" crop up a lot in the reviews, then deciding that Citizen Kane is what people want in their games. The exact contents of the film and the reviews in question don't shed any extra light on it, except maybe the box art at the end, but that's secondary to the main joke.

Dalisclock:

Doclector:
I get it, but I don't quite get why the guy in the suit is invisible.

I take it you've never heard the term "Empty suit". It's basically an executive who doesn't do anything or doesn't do anything well.

Please tell me I'm not the only one who got the "Empty suit" joke right off the bat.

Ah right, it all makes sense now. I'm a tad slow today...

I thought what we wanted was a realistic, down-to-Earth game that's totally off the wall and swarming with magic robots.

Mr.Tea:

Zachary Amaranth:

DVS BSTrD:
Grey a LOT of people aren't going to get this one. Because we can't see the punchline!

I thought the joke was quite transparent.

Despite being the resident pun-master, he meant that literally; Some formatting mistake made the last panel unreadable, but it's fixed now.

Ah, well, you can see where I'd be confused. Unless the formatting on this post is screwed up, in which case

canadamus_prime:

Really? Was Citizen Kane really that good? I don't know I've never seen it.

The actual quality is more or less irrelevant, though I like the movie. It's mostly its status as cinematic validation that is sought. It's revered as a classic piece of cinematic excellence, so we as a community are tripping over ourselves to find the equivlanece. I'm betting a lot of people looking for the "Citizen Kane" of gaming haven't even seen the movie, which is one of the reasons I find its actual quality to be more or less beside the point. In fact, the now-dated style and teists of the movie might leave people nonplussed and confused as to what made this such a big deal. People seek validation of their hobby and a perceived depth to the art form.

By the same stretch, if enough people agreed that Nickelback was the Mozart of modern music, other genres might be looking for the "How You Remind Me" of their respective genre (or even medium). The quality of the song is irrelevant, as is the talent of the band.

It also makes the effort ultimately hollow, as trying to capture the success or potency of something without understanding it simply gets you Sam Raimi's career. I take this to be the meaning behind the punchline. And I'm sure someone else has explained this, but I wanted to work in jokes about Sam Raimi and Nickelback.

Personally, I think we should probably stop trying to prop up the "Citizen Kane" of gaming until we can accomplish the "Wrestlemania" of gaming.

Or, if we're going the film route, maybe something a little closer to the current heart of our media. Like trying to find a fair analogue to John Ford or Akira Kurosawa. We've already got the Michael Bays and Jerry Bruckheimers down, so maybe an advancement in smaller terms, rather than trying to reinvent the genre, doing so marginally, and claiming success.

No knock against "The Last of Us," but I doubt very much it's close to the equivalent. Most of our Citizen Kanes just aren't. which is why we need....SUPER CITIZEN KANE!

McMarbles:
I thought what we wanted was a realistic, down-to-Earth game that's totally off the wall and swarming with magic robots.

And we should win stuff for watching.

But you're right. Gaming consensus is like herding cats. The difference between cinema and gaming is that while one seeks consensus, the other has entries designed to hit a wide range of audiences. Even in the relatively narrow swath that is mainstream, you have action, dramas, romantic comedies vulgar comedies, suspense/thrillers and even some horror on the periphery. In gaming, we try and turn everything into a samey brown shooter because of this illusory need for consensus. This would be like if we put most franchises under the watchful eye of Michael Bay. Imagine if Bay was in charge of the new Citizen Kane reboot. Michael Bay's The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance. The Producers, as seen by Micha....Come to think of it, having seen the remake, that would be just about a lateral move.

1337mokro:

Most people couldn't see the third panel. There are two jokes in this comic. The second one was obscured with advertisements. Which in itself is a nice commentary on the current state of the internet where it has become the new TV which is entirely advertisement funded.

It was fixed by the time I clicked on it, or I just wasn't impacted. other people saw it, so I'm guessing the former. So yeah, I didn't know it at the time and we're talking DVS Bastard, who makes puns in almost any post. I think he'd pull an "instant CSI" talking about the death of a loved one. Not bashing him, because I love his puns. However, it's not hard to make the mistake I did.

Anyway, considering the crap I've dealt with with Blip the last couple of days (UI had an INFINITE AD LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP! *cure reverb*), the metatopic of content actually being destroyed by ads certainly hits close to home. It also wouldn't be the first time I had issues with advertising and the Escapist, as some of their adverts used to hang my browser or even my computer (I think you could fry an egg on my processor when it happened). I didn't change anything, so they must have.

Which brings up the topic of ads. I don't mind them. I just wish that they didn't make them so bad that not watching the content was preferable. Blip's ads are causing me to drop shows I had no problem with supporting before.

Desert Punk:

canadamus_prime:
So all we want is ultra violence? Is that the joke? Also what's with the Invisible Man?

Its not an invisible man.

its a Suit. People in charge of companies that are fairly faceless and bureaucratic are called Suits, they have no personality, all about the numbers ect.

And its not really about violence, it is about the fact that people are all comparing Last of Us to Citizen Kane in its impact and depth, and in gaming things have to be turned up to 11 and marketing says people like actiony covers acording to the folk that made Bioshock Infinite.

Thus its SUPER Citizen Kane, where Kane is


over his shoulder like Dewit was holding a shotgun so the pose is more action oriented, and battlefield is a very popular cover as well so they mimicked that as well.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I really didn't get that one. I had no idea what he was holding in the third panel either, even though I saw the movie. I guess I thought it would be bigger.

canadamus_prime:

Desert Punk:

canadamus_prime:

But I still have to question why it's considered that benchmark that we need to meet. Putting aside the other question of why we feel the need to keep up with the film industry instead of forging our own identity.

Because Film is the media we most closely resemble, we are nothing like writing, music, or performance art.

And the reason it was a bench mark is because it did so many things fundamentally different to other films of it time and changed film making forever. THAT is the bench mark gaming needs, a fundamental shift in how things are done for the better that will enhance the medium as a whole.

Except the video games are interactive and films are not. That's a pretty big difference. And thus I don't see why we should be using a film as a benchmark.

I think it's more of "We want a game to do for the games industry what Citizen Kane did for the movie industry" rather than "We want a game to ape Citizen Kane"

Who was the first game dev who wanted their product to be like Citizen Kane? That's such an odd goal to reach for in a different industry. Now I want the Rosebud sled to be some DLC weapon or power-up. I liked the empty suit; it was like something from a Dilbert strip.

I haven't seen Erin flip out or act insane yet. I remember the arc where she threw a console at someone's head ..

OT: The Last of Us has a protagonist that i've seen in almost every video game like Call of Duty, Uncharted 3, Gears of War, Max Pain, Bioshock: Infinite and so forth. A guy who's got a scruffy beard, has nothing to lose, tough personality, and probably fights like a champion while having no sensitive side. Not against it but would of been nice if the girl was the protagonist overall.

Ishal:
" Why do you care what I think? I'm a film critic "

I've never seen that part...that's awesome that he added that. Everyone seems to leave it out to heighten the controversy.

Paragon Fury:
The only problem with this is that Citizen Kane isn't a very good movie; I remain convinced that the only reason critics and reviewers keep saying the movie is so good and keeps being put at the top of the AFI's Top 100 Movies list is because its essentially a giant circle-jerk/trolling party by the film industry.

The documentary about how the film was made is actually a better movie than the movie itself.

I loved Citizen Kane. I wasn't even approaching it like a film student or from a historical perspective. I just found it to be a dang good movie.

I would play Super Citizen Kane. Like with Dante's Inferno, the very act of making the game is the best sort of joke any developer can possibly achieve, one that continues to build on and renew itself with every moment of gameplay. The only thing that could ruin it would be if they were being deliberately comedic and making it 'ironically.'

Some Jerk spoiled the game in the Facebook comments :/.

I wish there was some sort of punishment for folks that do that kind of stuff.

Casual Shinji:
Actually The Last of Us reminds me more of No Country for Old Men or True Grit.

Personally it reminded me of McCarthy's Blood Meridian in the best possible way. The whole 'Citizen Kane' of gaming is silly, given Citizen Kane isn't Citizen Kane because it's an unmatched spectacle of greatness above all other film, but because of how important it was in terms of the developing the cinematic language. Hell, it wasn't even acknowledged as one of the greatest films until decades later.

Gaming's 'Citizen Kane' moment has probably come and gone by now, and we won't know what it was for another ten years. And hell, given how disparate gaming genres are in their language, I imagine there will be way more than one definitive game.

The Last of Us is still one of the finest games I've ever played though.

FargoDog:

Casual Shinji:
Actually The Last of Us reminds me more of No Country for Old Men or True Grit.

Personally it reminded me of McCarthy's Blood Meridian in the best possible way. The whole 'Citizen Kane' of gaming is silly, given Citizen Kane isn't Citizen Kane because it's an unmatched spectacle of greatness above all other film, but because of how important it was in terms of the developing the cinematic language. Hell, it wasn't even acknowledged as one of the greatest films until decades later.

Gaming's 'Citizen Kane' moment has probably come and gone by now, and we won't know what it was for another ten years. And hell, given how disparate gaming genres are in their language, I imagine there will be way more than one definitive game.

The Last of Us is still one of the finest games I've ever played though.

It was the grizzled and utterly bleak world view the game holds that really reminded me of those films. Also with a bit of There will be Blood.

There's also the connection that both No Country for Old Men and The Last of Us create a certain expectation from the audience regarding the main character, which it then completely breaks down and turns on its ear.

But I thought Dynasty Warriors was the Citizen Kane of gaming.

To be completely honest, the most shocking part about the comic is that Erin is seen properly working and trying as a valid, proper video-game journalist. Either that or I am just being corrupted by the various shenanigans she pulls in her working hour.

That and the fact that I didn't get the Citizen Kane reference in the first place

I absolutely loved Last of Us. The only possible niggle I have is entirely due to doing a PhD in medical science-y stuff:

Apart from that though, we need more games with the sort of story-telling calibre as Last of Us. Though hopefully it doesn't start a trend of strongly written post-apocalyptic games as every publisher tries to get a slice of the pie.

Deu Sex:
But I thought Dynasty Warriors was the Citizen Kane of gaming.

No, Age of Empires 2 HD is the Citizen Kane of gaming.

I'm not gonna lie, I would play the fuck out of that game.

I think the real problem with calling The Last of Us the "Citizen Kane of Gaming" is that to say such a thing is to profoundly misunderstand what is important about Citizen Kane. In many ways, gaming has already had the equivalent and it's been around for a long, long time. Half-Life profoundly altered how narrative was handled and many of the techniques have been used elsewhere and expanded upon. Given that Citizen Kane's place in film history is best defined by what it showed was possible with the medium, Half-Life deserves similar credit when it comes to games.

By the way most people refer to the search for such a game, it seems that they are chasing some elusive benchark of quality or immersion that's largely subjective; such a search is foolish. Just as it is foolish to declare a game of the moment will be long remembered as the great object that elevated the medium - that's something you'll lock back after the long years and see what game really made an impact.

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