Jimquisition: Neutered

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PromethianSpark:
Is anyone else have difficulty accessing this content

Yeah, video doesn't work for me for some reason. Not a site issue as I just watched a couple from MovieBob, so clearly Jim is just broken. Horribly, horribly broken.

nuttshell:
I am sorry, if my style and focus points of interest led you to believe that I had that impression [that we disagree on everything].

Oh no, not at all! Quite the opposite, in fact. I tend to focus on disagreements in my responses more than agreements, sometimes to the exclusion of agreements, so I was worried my agreement would actually come off as a disagreement without that disclaimer.

SonicWaffle:

PromethianSpark:
Is anyone else have difficulty accessing this content

Yeah, video doesn't work for me for some reason. Not a site issue as I just watched a couple from MovieBob, so clearly Jim is just broken. Horribly, horribly broken.

He's probably just punishing us for not viewing the video the day it's uploaded. Hope it gets fixed soon though, as it's rather annoying.

JimB:
Oh no, not at all! Quite the opposite, in fact.

Oh, thats great then, I am relieved. :) It doesn't do a discussion any good, if it focuses on agreement...we have masturbation for that. I know, most people don't understand discussions and assume that opposing opinions are verbal agression or even abuse...

Thing: Someone suggests that games ought to feature more women and minorities.
Gamers' Response: "But I don't to stifle the artists' creativity by forcing them to be politically correct all the time!"

Thing: Developers are prevented (some may even say "stifled") from making games about women and minorities, because apparently those games don't sell as well.
Gamers' Response: "Whatever, that's just how the free market works, bro."

bobleponge:
Thing: Someone suggests that games ought to feature more women and minorities.
Gamers' Response: "But I don't to stifle the artists' creativity by forcing them to be politically correct all the time!"

Thing: Developers are prevented (some may even say "stifled") from making games about women and minorities, because apparently those games don't sell as well.
Gamers' Response: "Whatever, that's just how the free market works, bro."

Those are not mutually exclusive circumstances though, and you cannot blame the consumer for them.

We don't stop them from making them. We don't clamor for them either. A game should be more about the gameplay than the dangly bits between a character's legs. If the gameplay is tight, then sales will follow. If not, then you'll face middling reviews and sales. Free market is a bit of a rough place when something doesn't sell.

Sure you can quote figures like "More and more women are playing games" And it's true, but these '40%' figures you hear are unfairly bloated, since they count Facebook games as games. As far as publishers are concerned though, the female console market hasn't really grown much at all by market share. Games are expensive to make, at least at the $60 shelf tag retail price point. I'm not going to risk a couple million of my capital on a game that might move only 100,000 units.

image

Come on! Why art thou broken. Are you punishing me oh mighty Jim? Tell me what I have done and I shall atone!

Father Time:

Rebel_Raven:
Some people in this thread seem to be a bit too all or nothing about this.
Perhaps Jim is being taken a bit too litterally.

There's room for all kinds of games in the gaming industry. That said, not every game needs Gender Select, or a female character option, BUT, the industry needs to mature into a media that welcomes many kinds of gamers and be more common about it. It needs to stop relying on the default white guy that's around 30, and branch out more into other ethnicities, and the other gender. I know they -can- do this.

Here's the thing though.

Let's say none of them want to do this. That left to their own devices and free from publisher intervention they'd all make games starring men. What should we do? Where does the blame fall to to make those games with women when there's maybe 100 different development teams if not more.

Rebel_Raven:

Samus, Lara Croft, and pretty much every other memorable female protagonist we remember fondly are likely creations of guys.
We've seen a handful of assorted ethnicities in gaming, but I don't think we've seen enough.
I mean am I really to believe bullshit like Naughty Dog can't make a decent female protagonist? Or that Rockstar with it's writing team, and a taste for the controvercial can't make a female lead in GTA?

I haven't played the last of us but does that girl not count? Or does it have to be a playable one?

I'll cross that bridge about your first scenario when we get there, honestly. I do feel like that there will not be a 100% no women scene in development if they were left to their own devices.

As for The Last of Us, you can play as the girl for a chapter from what I've been told.
Unfortunately, no, it doesn't really count to me that you can play as her for a chapter. While it is awesome, while Naughty Dog, and Rockstar make some nice female characters in general, I'm hard pressed to accept anything but a console game where you play as the female from one of the game to the other without being forced into a change of perspectives.

Until these games with women as the star playable character release a few a year, and steadily, on multiple consoles/handhelds I'm not going to be pleased. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split, or a split with male protagonists, and gender select, multiple character choices, etc. by a large degree, or anything, but I certainly want options, and variety. I think the words used to describe the releases should be "common" and, for at least some of them, "Highly anticipated." I'd imagine the anticipation for the releases means the series doesn't suck. :P

Nice for Jim to prove he doesn't know what he's talking about... yet again. Oh sure customization is nice and may make the game more inclusive but it costs time and money. And yes that's the problem. I didn't play Saint's Row but it wouldn't surprise me other aspects of the game suffered from this heavy investment in customization. Until the day you can add customization by snapping your fingers this issue isn't as straight forward as it may look. And let's not forget customization isn't as straight forward as it may look either. Take Metal Gear Solid. If they'd allow you to make a female snake for instance they'd need to adapt a lot of text in the cutscenes but also the gender of the big boss, liquid and solidus. And the bigger the story the higher the cost of customization. It's easy to say: "see that game does this, why doesn't the rest?" if you aren't even going to use your brain and think about the implications of doing "this".

And inclusiveness =/= creativity. And if you ask me I prefer devs to be "policed" by the market than by guilt induced by Political Correctness Activists. And the simple reason why is: the policing enforced by the market aims at maximizing utility for said market, which means more consumer satisfaction. And somehow that sounds good... Really wouldn't know why...

Good work on the subject matter in this one, Jim. I know sometimes it feels like several videos are made about similar topics, but this time it seemed like new things were being said.

I like this video a lot and enjoy its points in many aspects. There's just ooooone little aspect that's really enraging me that I need to get off my chest before I finish the video. *ahem*

Different races, genders and sexuality are NOT the only freaking ways to 'include', and calling a series 'oh so inclusive' just for checking all of those boxes is infuriating to me, because it makes me think about how little thought you must have put into that conclusion.

What about people who don't like M-rated content? Hum? What about the family values crowd? Ah screw them, right? They don't count as people, apparently.

What about all the kids who won't get to play the game--that they might have seen online and liked the look of--because their parents don't want them playing something so obscene? What about people who are just kind of uncomfortable at stuff like that?

So you're saying we shouldn't have violence or R-rated content in games at all?
No, I like games with R rated content. I just don't want people calling something that alienates a giant, huge ton of people with its content to be called 'welcoming to all', especially by smart people like Jim.

So every game should appeal to all people?
No obviously not EVERY one will like anything, but second verse, same as the first.

I like this video a lot and enjoy its points in many aspects. There's just ooooone little aspect that's really enraging me that I need to get off my chest before I finish the video. *ahem*

Different races, genders and sexuality are NOT the only freaking ways to 'include', and calling a series 'oh so inclusive' just for checking all of those boxes is infuriating to me, because it makes me think about how little thought you must have put into that conclusion.

What about people who don't like M-rated content? Hum? What about the family values crowd? Ah screw them, right? They don't count as people, apparently.

What about all the kids who won't get to play the game--that they might have seen online and liked the look of--because their parents don't want them playing something so obscene? What about people who are just kind of uncomfortable at stuff like that?

So you're saying we shouldn't have violence or R-rated content in games at all?
No, I like games with R rated content. I just don't want people calling something that alienates a giant, huge ton of people with its content to be called 'welcoming to all', especially by smart people like Jim.

So every game should appeal to all people?
No obviously not EVERY one will like anything, but second verse, same as the first.

Okay, back to video.

I love this kind of Jimquisition episode the most, one where I have a preconceived notion of what is right/isn't right and assume the validity of a standpoint and get shown reasonably that something I thought or at least accepted is in fact wrong.

The usage of male slang IS ridiculous when you actually think about it. Games could very well improve with more inclusive elements.

kklawm:
I love this kind of Jimquisition episode the most, one where I have a preconceived notion of what is right/isn't right and assume the validity of a standpoint and get shown reasonably that something I thought or at least accepted is in fact wrong.

The usage of male slang IS ridiculous when you actually think about it. Games could very well improve with more inclusive elements.

"Male Slang" please elaborate.

Well it doesnt necessarily need to prove that youre wrong just that ones own subjective standpoint isnt infallable and could very easily have just another reasonable standpoint from a different perspective.

UltraHammer:
I like this video a lot and enjoy its points in many aspects. There's just ooooone little aspect that's really enraging me that I need to get off my chest before I finish the video. *ahem*

Different races, genders and sexuality are NOT the only freaking ways to 'include', and calling a series 'oh so inclusive' just for checking all of those boxes is infuriating to me, because it makes me think about how little thought you must have put into that conclusion.

What about people who don't like M-rated content? Hum? What about the family values crowd? Ah screw them, right? They don't count as people, apparently.

What about all the kids who won't get to play the game--that they might have seen online and liked the look of--because their parents don't want them playing something so obscene? What about people who are just kind of uncomfortable at stuff like that?

So you're saying we shouldn't have violence or R-rated content in games at all?
No, I like games with R rated content. I just don't want people calling something that alienates a giant, huge ton of people with its content to be called 'welcoming to all', especially by smart people like Jim.

So every game should appeal to all people?
No obviously not EVERY one will like anything, but second verse, same as the first.

Okay, back to video.

1. no it doesnt and it shouldnt need to yet we should always praise games who try to do this and make good efforts to clean up the gaming community to be a bit more inclusive than it already is

2.If you seriously still believe we cant have our cake and eat it too after reading all of this and of course watching the video im not sure what the hell is wrong with you

3.Of course there are different ways to be inclusive other than diversity of gender and race and such, and in no way should we try to appeal to everyone with every game instead of making each game unique and able to target demographics, again, we can have our cake and eat it too in this scenario you know...

generals3:
Nice for Jim to prove he doesn't know what he's talking about... yet again. Oh sure customization is nice and may make the game more inclusive but it costs time and money. And yes that's the problem. I didn't play Saint's Row but it wouldn't surprise me other aspects of the game suffered from this heavy investment in customization. Until the day you can add customization by snapping your fingers this issue isn't as straight forward as it may look. And let's not forget customization isn't as straight forward as it may look either. Take Metal Gear Solid. If they'd allow you to make a female snake for instance they'd need to adapt a lot of text in the cutscenes but also the gender of the big boss, liquid and solidus. And the bigger the story the higher the cost of customization. It's easy to say: "see that game does this, why doesn't the rest?" if you aren't even going to use your brain and think about the implications of doing "this".

And inclusiveness =/= creativity. And if you ask me I prefer devs to be "policed" by the market than by guilt induced by Political Correctness Activists. And the simple reason why is: the policing enforced by the market aims at maximizing utility for said market, which means more consumer satisfaction. And somehow that sounds good... Really wouldn't know why...

1.It did? How? When? What numbers do you have to present officially that substantiates your claim that its such a HUGE sacrifice to make costumization mechanics be implemented into games, hmm?

2.I dont think many people actually made the argument that you need to change all that much in games that want to be unique and should have the freedom to and even then, games that dont, its not an all that difficult thing to do. Think pokemon for example, usually people just refer to you as "You" or "Yourname" instead of throwing around "he/she" and such.

dragons crowne should have had customizable skins.

I'm still only on page six in this thread but I felt the need to voice something before getting to the end, so forgive me if this has been brought up.

You know what sucks about the whole fiasco with Dragon's Crown? That Vanillaware is the one that got crap for all of this. The company that's ENTIRE game record is games that have female leads or allow you to play as a female character. Grim Grimoire, Muramasa, and Odin's Sphere are three games I own in my collection and I really enjoyed them. Grim Grimoire stars a female protagonist, Muramasa stars two characters, one of whom is a woman. Odin's Sphere has THREE female protagonists out of five. And those are the ones that I have. There's also Princess Crown which was never released in America and it's main protagonist is a woman. The PSP game Grand Knights History allows you to be male or female. And another Japanese only title, Kumantanchi, as much as it's a life-simulation game, the game is in fact centered around a female character. And of course we have Dragon's Crown which also has three female playable characters in it.

Where the hell were the people making such an outcry over this when a game like Odin's Sphere came out? Where was the soaring praise for that game? It's stuff like this that unfortunately really lends some merit to the kinds of reactions gamers have to these things. People take one brief look at something and go into full outrage mode without looking into anything or learning more about what's going on.

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