Sony's G.I.R.L. Game Design Scholarship Offers $10,000 Pages PREV 1 2 | |
There are many more men who actually succeed in breaking into the industry. That is the imbalance they are trying to correct for. | |
Yes, people are worried about the possibility of organized discrimination, so they must be overrating. -_- | |
It doesn't matter what gender the person who wrote Jade was; she's an exception to the rule. To say otherwise is to ignore reality. When you have a creative industry overwhelmingly dominated by men, you're going to wind up with characters and situations which overwhelmingly reflect the male condition. I'm not saying have every game made by women be tailored to women; I'm just saying that by having more women involved in the development process, to say more designers naturally familiar with what life is like as a girl, you're naturally (or hopefully) going to wind up with a greater variety of in-game stories and situations which reflect those things. It's nothing much, just a side point if anything. You're right centrally - good writing and design trumps all markers, be they based on gender, race, religion or otherwise.
I don't agree that it was sexist at all. Do I have to? I think it's a perfectly tacit acknowledgement of the physical differences between men and women. If others disagree, well, that's their right. I can still hold the opinions that I do about the scholarship at the same time as thinking that. No one person's ideology fits neatly into the chaos of "general consensus"; to try and force yourself to do so is to deny your brain the right it has to roam and form its own opinions. | |
I don't find it sexist either, and that's a fair point. | |
Oh won't SOMEBODY think of the MEN?! | |
...because its somehow wrong to consider both genders? | |
i politely disagree, the idea (or at least how i interpret it) is that having more women in the process will result in products that appeal more to women rather than the wholly male focussed affairs we still get too often. | |
I hate it when promotions for gender "equality" translates to giving women a handicap over men in an attempt to even out the end results. A truly equal society would hold both genders to the same standards without giving and special exceptions to one side or the other. This is just a different form of sexual discrimination. Of course most people who advocate sexual equality don't want that. | |
As Duskflamer said, this was originally in Dungeons and Dragons, but it was kicked out because it was deemed to be sexist. (Despite obvious physical differences like bone-structure, this was reset to work with fantasy physics - ignoring ideas about nutrition/mammary support muscles) Equally, if you had a dark-skinned version of a race that was more cruel or stronger or less intelligent, you'd be straying far too much onto old racism topics - despite that being how Elves/Dark Elves work. (And both races are often Matriarchal) What we're looking at is a push towards adrenaline based gameplay at the moment; which may favour most males - but it doesn't favour all males, or disfavour(?) all females. While we're still labelling girl gamers, we've still got a big gap to cross. And it's a gap for both genders. And the gamer girl poster child of the moment? Jessica Chobot... That's a backward step. | |
it's wrong to consider both genders to be discriminated against equally.
it's enough to make you think that maybe our society still isn't truly equal. | |
its also wrong/ignorant to think that men don't face discrimination. | |
Yes, agreed. | |
This. Just this. I was waiting for a post like this to drop and BOOM! Here it is. It's only a problem, if we make it a problem. Where I work, 90 percent of the staff are female, but it doesn't matter, because people are persons first and gender second. It doesn't matter who does the job, what matters are the results. Assuming that men can't take females into account (which the majority of the defenders of this program hints) or vice-versa, is sexism in itself. | |
Wow people, just wow. The reason this isn't aimed at men is because the industry is already fucking dominated by men. Men need no fucking help getting their foot in the door because they're all already in the god damn room. Lack of female talent in the games industry means lack of a female perspective. Which will cause women (talking about the ones who don't normally play games here) to be less interested in games, cause them to not look for industry positions, and we end up losing a whole bunch of potential creative talent. Which just sucks no matter what. It isn't really oppression, but it is one hell of a missed opportunity. Sony here is trying to change that. And most of the responses seem to be "well, what about the men?". They aren't focusing on the men because, as I said, they already fucking dominate the industry. Men need no special help getting in because they're already everywhere. This is to get gender equality into the games industry, to get more women interested in the industry, which is dominated by men. So of course they're going to have to aim this at women. They don't aim it at men because men are already fucking everywhere. | |
Entirely irrelevant.
Not a argument, not a rationalization. It doesn't matter how many Men are or aren't already in the industry. The deal is, now get this, affirmitive action effectively does nothing to create equal oppurtunity. As a matter of fact, the idea in and of itself is either racist or sexist if not both. It's just apparently the kind of race- and sexism that the incredibly short sighted are keen to tolerate.
You realize that your argument here isn't really a argument at all? What this kind of thing actually says is: ''Hey Girls, we setup this special scholarship just for you, because, you know, I think we both know you can't compete under fair circumstances.'' Now, I realize that men aren't openly forbidden from applying for this, so essentially, this is more about the idea in and of itself. It doesn't matter if the industry is biased or not, if it is dominated by one sex or not, it doesn't matter because the message that this scholarship sends is enough. At the end of the day, affirmitive action doesn't encourage minorities to step up and fill the gaps, it discourages people that don't belong to a minority. Oh yeah, about your argument not being one. The reasoning for that is very simple actually. Openings are finite. By pushing a woman into a position you are just denying that position to someone else. Now, considering this is a specialized Scholarship, chances are you'll be denying the position to someone who would have been more qualified, simply because you choose to ignore anyone who trying to get in through other means, be they male or female.
You're missing the point. I don't really like speaking for others, but I believe it's safe to assume that people aren't so much complaining because women are being helped, but far more because ''ONLY'' the women are getting that help. It isn't fair. It doesn't help to make anything ''equal'' and essentially is saying that women don't necessarily have to put in the same effort as a man because, hey, there are special projects just to get the girls in there. Encouraging minorities and women isn't a problem, in fact, that would be great. Except practically nobody actually does that nor does much of anyone seem to give 2 shits about that.
Another thing you might want to realize. Equality has nothing to do with striving to reach a 50/50 split in Gender, Race, Whatever. All equality is actually about, is giving EVERYONE the same oppurtunity. In fact, the idea that we keep dwelling on the whole Gender/Race/Sexuality Issuse effectively prevents us from ever reaching that...you know, because the entire idea is that Gender/Race/Sexuality should be irrelevant when it comes to these things. NOBODY should be getting any kind of bonus for this kind of superficial bullshit. You know who should be helped? Those on the lower pegs of the social ladder and as with who gets the job, your naughty bits, the color of your skin and the naughty bits of the people you like having sex with should be irrelevant here aswell. Basically, the ultimate solution to the entire equality problem we have...the ultimate solution is essentially to stop giving a shit. | |
It's the reason why it's being aimed at women instead of men. I'd say that's very relevant.
It does matter, since because there's apparently so few women getting into the industry that a program like this needs to exists to get them interested. And yeah, affirmative action doesn't do much for actual equality, but what this program is doing is trying to get women interested in competing with others to get into the industry, get them to compete with each other, and giving the winner money to help them go to school to build their skills that will help them get a job in the industry.
What this kind of thing says, or at least means to say, is "hey, we see there's a startlingly low amount of women in the industry. Lets do this to try and get more women more interested in trying to get in. And if you're good enough, we'll give you some money to help pay for school". And what message does this scholarship send? That if you're a women here's a way to help pay for school? What about the hundreds upon hundreds of other scholarships that cater to damn near every person and background? Many exist to help you, no matter who you are, help pay for school. This is just another of those aimed at a set of people. Like how other scholarships are aimed at other sets of people. And this isn't pushing women into positions in the industry. It's not guaranteeing them a job at the expense of anyone else. It's getting them interested in trying to apply for a job in the first damn place. Because apparently so few women are even trying to break in that this thing has to exist. And yeah, it is a specialized scholarship. And to get it, you have to prove you're better than everyone else, meaning those who don't get it weren't good enough. And if you're not a woman, there's plenty of other scholarships you can try to get that are more tailored to you and your background.
Men aren't getting helped in this one program because men have other options. Evidently women don't. That in itself isn't fair but I don't see many men complaining about it. But when this comes along giving women a chance to show they deserve it, now it's a problem? And for the men? That's fucked up. And they do have to put in effort. It's a competition for a scholarship and paid internship. They have to work hard to win it. What do others scholarships do? I'm sure they all have their own rules and whatnot. I highly doubt they just give money to anyone who asks. And yes, encouraging minorities and women is great. Which is exactly why this program is doing that. And they're doing it because, like you just said, not many others seem to give 2 shits about it.
And that's just what this is doing. Giving women the same opportunity men have. Getting them interested to try and compete and get a job. And no, we should not simply just ignore a person's gender/race/sexuality. Since chances are those are the main things that make them them. Instead of completely ignoring what makes a person who they are, we should accept each other for who we are. All these "bonuses" exist to try and get them interested in going to school and trying to get an education. No, it isn't perfect. Yes, it gets abused. But it's trying to fix a problem that's there. It's a symptom of a larger problem that needs addressing. And to ignore it is just... ridiculous. Oh, and all those people on the lower pegs of the social ladder? There's shit-loads of scholarships to help them out as well. | |
A couple of points: 1. The early 1980s was 30 years ago. | |
Nope. As a whole it is irrelevant what gender is ''dominating'' a given industry. It just doesn't matter. All that means is that you feel we need more women for the sake of having more women. There is no point in that. All any Industry needs is talented workers.
Call me crazy, but if the person isn't competing of their own accord, I'm not interested in them working for me. Really, this is entirely idiotic ''Yeah, so women aren't all the interested in trying to get into our Industry...we should probably throw money and sexism at it until this non-issue goes away.'' Thing is, if the women aren't interested all on their own, they don't belong anyway.
Bullshit and you know it is. I don't just think this, I know for a fact that we both realize that all Sony itself is actually saying here is ''Yay, cheap good PR!''.
Let's try a different approach here, shall we? Give me 1 good reason the industry has to want women as opposed to just general talent. Name 1 thing that women and by that I mean all women, could bring to the table here that no man could. Something relevant by the way and something that actually exists, so don't even bother with that sexist ''female perspective'' bullshit. Hint: It's just because this is what is considered politically correct, not because females have some inherent value to the industry.
That's kind of the whole fucking problem, now isn't it?
Reading my post might help, I made it pretty clear that I find any group-specific sholarship to be incredibly retarded. But ok, I'll give you a fair shot here. Name 1, just 1, scholarship in the games industry that is exclusively for white males. I don't even need to look to know it doesn't exist, just like it doesn't have to exist for me to know that this Thread would be a complete shitstorm if that's what were being announced here. The best part is that you'd probably be one of those people outraged by it.
Yeah and as stated above, they shouldn't exist. If you're going to have Scholarships them make them exclusively for those that really need it, regardless of Gender, Race and Sexuality. You know, Equality.
Yes it is and your own post acknowledges it.
Actually, it pretty much does. For one, it's for a fucking Job. Payed Internship = Low level Job. But not just that, simply because of what this is, whoever gets this pretty much has a Job guarenteed.
Also as stated above, if you aren't interested and trying all on your own, quite frankly, fuck you.
Why? Yes, I understand women aren't really flooding the gates here. But why is this a ''problem''? If women aren't interested then they aren't interested. End of.
*Everyone else includes only women and only those that actually apply. Thats the deal, when you are effectively locking out more then 50% of all possible applicants, chances are you going to be getting far from the best. You might get the best of your little group, but thats far from being the best overall.
**Or they didn't apply or they couldn't apply or they never had any realistic chance of getting it in the first place because they don't fit hidden criteria.
I decided to put those together since they would pretty much get the same reply anyway. 1. Like I said, go ahead and point out the wealth of scholarships that are exclusively for white males. 2. And women can't apply for normal scholarships? Is it that? Or can they simply not compete, because that would make all the difference.
But not as hard as if they were going against all possible candidates, you know, the way it should be.
Hmm, I'm less interested in whatever work someone has to do then I am with the fact that Penis/Vagina or a specific Skin Color should not be a requirement. EVERYONE should have to work for a scholarship, just nobody should be locked out for such idiotic reasons. Are you rich? Well then screw you, pay for it yourself. <-- Fine by me. Are you not rich? Well then, congradula...oh wait, you're white, pay for it yourself. <-- Fucking stupid.
Except that, no, actually they aren't. Making scholarships for women, blacks, latinos, asians, gays, purple aliens from uranus and so forth does not encourage a minority. What it does is discourage anyone who doesn't belong to the specific minority in question. You want to encourage minorities? Fucking Role Models dude. First thing you should be doing is creating a enviroment in which people, not just minorities, but people in general, can excel from a young age. Give people the oppurtunity to make something out of themselves with hard work and make it clear to them that it can be worth it. Throwing money at a single person isn't going to change shit.
Yes, I said that and I am also absolutely correct about it. Do you know what kind of others I mean? I mean people like you for instance. People that have no idea what equality is, people that only see sexism, racism etc. when it's going towards a minority. Your posts here? Actually pretty damn sexist if you take a closer look. You know bullshit like ''female perspective''? Yeah, that's sexist pal, really, really, sexist.
As stated above, please point out all those scholarships to which women need not apply because they have a vagina. They aren't getting the same opportunity, they are getting a BETTER opportunity, difference.
Before I actually comment on this, I just thought you should know that this is the point where I really have to work hard to not let the rest of my post turn into a thinly veiled insult regarding your intelligence. For someone who apparently likes the idea of equality, you sure are fucking sexist and racist. Please, do tell, how does that dick you have make you who you are? Hint: It doesn't and you are a sexist racist, congrats ;)
I agree, I just find your notion that being male or being hispanic or being a lesbian is what makes a person...I just find that so...I really don't know how to say this without it ending up being infraction worthy...the notion is terrible, I'll leave it at that.
I've said it quite often by now, but I guess 1 more time won't hurt. INTEREST SHOULD BE A BASE REQUIREMENT, NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE ARTIFICIALLY CREATED.
To say it isn't perfect is a laughable understatement. Not only is it not perfect, it doesn't work at all, it can't.
Multiple things 1. No it isn't. This isn't trying to ''fix a problem''. To fix a problem you'd actually have to acknowledge where the problem is. Do you know what this does? All it does is tip the scale in the other direction and if people don't start taking care of THAT problem rather soon, I imagine that all this bullshit will cause the exact opposite, it will throw us back. Do you know why? Because what it essentially does is give said minorities a reason to hold onto a notion of victimization while at the same time trying to push said minorities into leadership positions. Do you know what the result of that would be? The result would be that instead of having minorities being shafted, you have everyone else being shafted. That's why this is stupid. It doesn't help anything, it just changes what the problem is, this isn't solving anything, it's ignoring the actual issuse. 2. Specifically Game Industry now. Where is this problem? Where? Are Games not being made? Are GREAT Games not being made? I'm pretty sure Skyrim exists, atleast I know that if it doesn't, you don't either and this is all some dream of mine. Not having more women in the industry is not a problem for the industry. It's a ''problem'' for society. But the thing is, society consists of people, stupid people, plenty of which share your short-sighted views on the matter. In other words, they make a problem where one doesn't actually exist because understanding what a words means or what a concept is, is just plain asking too much. You know how I know that? People still use the term equality when refering to things that are blatantly sexist or racist, simply because they don't realize that these are all 2 way roads.
I agree, so why exactly are you ignoring the problem? You see, disregarding things like Gender, Race and Sex when it comes to hiring people, that makes sense, it's fair. I really don't see why sexist racists such as yourself can't just let such details completly slide where it isn't relevant. Job Interview ''Are you gay?'' <-- Doesn't matter, entirely irrelevant and nobodies business. Looking for a sexual partner, maybe in a club or something ''Are you gay?'' <-- Relevant considering you are testing if the person would be interested in having sex with you.
Who'd a thunk it. I mean, really? You realize me saying ''There should only be this.'' does not imply ''Hey, what about this, this doesn't exist.'' But, for the record, plenty of those are also minority exclusive. | |
I'm sorry, but I know I would support a guy to win it if he was for gender equality and keeping women in the games industry. So please, don't assume they will just "Bin" any essay. Unless the essay is lacking, I doubt they will. Funnily enough, not all feminists ignore men who want gender equality as much as women do. And pretty sure the people involved with this are not the Man Hating, Bra Burning type. Oh, and @Monoochrom. Males can have a unique perspective to things just like women can. It's not sexist. If I was making a game, I would want Male AND Female perspectives, just to make sure that the character resonates with more than one audience. Just like having a super dull macho character annoys me, so does a super feminine brainless character. I like characters and games with dynamics, which is with certain games and series, completely lacking. I don't want a Girl Power game, nor a Guy Power game. I want a good game that isn't just trying to obviously cater to a "BIG GUNS AND BADASS" type audience. I want characters with complications, unique perspectives, and is interesting enough that I don't have to ignore the idiots involved with character design to enjoy a game. And sometimes...what do you know, it does involve getting BOTH PERSPECTIVES. | |
It makes me sad how often people in these Forums, that seem to generally consider themselves as ''better'' then others, need to have things spelled out for them. No, a ''female perspective'' does not exist just as little as a ''male perspective'' exists. A AngelBlackChaos perspective is a reality, like a Monoochrom perspective or a Irridium perspective. There is however no female perspective and what makes the notion that there is sexist is the fact that you are implying that all women think or atleast see the world through the same eyes, which also would imply that men do so aswell. So, yes, it's sexist and the ''female perspective'' doesn't exist, next time maybe think about what you are trying to tell me before thinking you can go full caps on me. In other words, no you silly person, we have personal perspectives, but there is no overarching female or male perspective. If you really wanted to be broad about my perspective for instance, I would atleast hope that you go atleast a little into detail. In that case my perspective would be that of a white male, born in california, living in germany, in his mid-twenties and who is engaged. And that is still extremely broad. Seems you have the right idea, you just don't know what words mean. Even so, as stated in my other post, women have no inherent value in this or any industry, just like men. Whats needed is talent, I personally don't give a shit who's talent it is, if the person has a Vagina or a Penis or both or neither. The person could be pink and naturally be covered in a floral design, I don't care because it doesn't matter for the job. And just for the fun of it, regarding your part that wasn't aimed at me. It doesn't require the man hating bra burners (your term, not mine), all it requires are people like Irridium (and, I guess also like you) to path the way to hell with good intentions :) sure, these people all believe in ''equality'', they just think that equality is reverse sex- and racism. | |
Actually, I believe both men and women are equal. We sometimes approach things differently, however. Seeing different ways to approach issues, such as plot holes and character design, can make for an overall better game. Its been investigated in Psychology time and time again. What I am saying is nothing new. Just like I wouldn't want an all women group for something, neither would I want all men. The scholarship is meant to give those interested a chance to excel. Notice how it doesn't specifically say Women Only? I could talk about the benefits of men as easily as I do for women, yet this is targeted. Why? If the Gaming Industry mostly composed of females, and there was a M.A.L.E scholarship happening, with both women and men, talking about the Male perspective, I would still be arguing about it. I think to make a better game, talent and both perspectives are truly desired. So no, I don't believe in sexism. I believe celebrating either sex, and their own perspectives, are a good thing. It gets people to talk about their own ideas, how they think about females, or the male perspective in gaming versus female perspective. And yes, it is a broad perspective, if you involve every female. But should it be noted in a game? yes. So should a male perspective. And claiming racism upon me is quite odd, seeing as how I was specifically talking about sex. Of course the overarching point of the scholarship involves females in games, but I don't believe they will just ignore a male's perspective of females in games. And perhaps this scholarship will get someone who would have not necessarily thought of being involved in the game industry, to take a look and try it out. And who knows, maybe in a few years, that winner will end up being involved in one of the best, newest dynamic games out there. All because of a scholarship that you say promotes reverse sexism. | |
I wonder why the sexists always pull this card. It's like, really? I mean how does the physiology make any difference here? Do you think you can just pull that stupid card and not have to justify it? Oh yes, men and women are not exactly the same. Now how is that relevant to this situation? | |
You, Comment that answers most of the arguments but for some reason hasn't been quoted, get over here. It's not because women feel they can't get into the game industry, I've a programming lady friend who want just that, but its the fact that she is the 1% of women I know who are interested in games and their design etc. Its like Nurb said, Its the reason in my school why most guys don't take Home economics and most women don't take PE, Interests. | |
Good
And you are starting to break down again right here. The thing is, that has nothing whatsoever to do with equality. PEOPLE do things differently. Not men and women, people.
Obviously. This however has nothing to do with men and women. This just plain has to do with people. A Woman might find plot holes in the story that a Man wrote and find a solution for those plot holes. That's the difference between you and me here, you keep presenting it as if that woman could have been any woman. You're doing that singular woman a great disservice by implying that she isn't actually any good, it's just something that a woman would have figured out by default, any woman. That is what I am trying to get into some heads here. The Gender of the person doesn't matter, it's the person themself that does.
Nope, and honestly I'm getting really tired of this notion that Gender is the main thing that makes us who we are and everything else is just a minor detail. It's more like the other way around. Yes, to a slight degree your Gender will influence you. Everything else in your Life is however going to influence you far more. ''Women look at it this way universally.'' <-- That is essentially what you are saying and no they fucking don't, not even by a longshot.
You really just don't get it, do you? Look, you are wrong. You are wrong because you are trying to work with something that doesn't actually exist. Your line of argument here only works if you assume that all men and women are blank slates. If it were so, you'd be right, but it isn't so and thus you are wrong simply because you are arguing your point so broadly that we could just aswell be discussing how much good bringing Dogs into the Industry would do.
It doesn't have to. Now, maybe you actually are this gulliable, but no this is blatantly aimed at women. You will not see a man getting this. It doesn't have to specifically say ''no men'' because it's rather obvious from the outset. Especially considering how it says it right there in the damn article that it is meant to get women in the industry. Especially considering how getting the Scholarship includes writing a Essay (pff, 500 Words ain't shit) specifically about women in the industry and making games more attractive to women. Are you really going to keep pretending that a guy has a actual chance at getting this? Oh, by the way, this can be seen when you apply for it:
Note that it doesn't mention gender, yet it does mention anything else you could mention...nah, I'm sure that doesn't mean anything...I mean, that certainly doesn't mean that they only want a specific gender (I'll let you figure out which one yourself)...they must have just forgotten to add that there.
Am I supposed to applaud you now? I already told you that you have your heart at the right spot. So, tell me, do you expect me to applaud you for saying that you would proudly be just as wrong as you are now, should the situation be it's opposite? Because I really don't see what you are getting at. This is bullshit when they do it for women and it is bullshit when they do it for men aswell.
Fixed that for you.
And yet you are sexist.
I believe in celebrating people.
Do me a favor and point out what your perspective as a female is, because the way you are saying it, me and you could never be on the same page and litterally every woman would share your perspective as every man would share mine. So, go ahead, I figure it's the only way you're going to understand it at this point anyway.
Can you somehow not involve every female in your ''female perspective''? How the fuck do you manage to do that? You know, because it would cease to be a ''female perspective'' the moment you cease saying that it is every womans perspective.
Then we must already have what you want considering how male and female perspective are meaningless.
FINALLY! Yes, perspectives tht add depth are good.
And right back to the idiotic concept of male and female perspectives. -.-
Yeah, that would be odd had I actually done so. Learn to read, what I said is that people (as in, in general, or is your name people?) tend to be for ''equality'' they just have no fucking clue what real equality is.
I already pointed things out that disagree with you.
Hardly considering one of the requirements is that you are already studying something that has to do with Games.
As a note, it was wrong of me to say reverse sexism, that doesn't exist either, it's just good ol' fashion sexism. Also, maybe I will become the God King of the World tomarrow. <-- Almost as relevant as the prospect that someone who wins this may someday be part of a team that makes a good game. In other words: So? I haven't said Scholarship = Bad What I've been saying is Group specific Scholarship = Segregation = Bad And also Group specific Scholarship = The opposite of equality | |
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That's the anti-thesis of gender equality, moron. A project that was based on the premise of gender equality would be one on where an equal amount of slots in the scheme would be allocated specifically for females as for males, or better yet, one that based the decision on skill and ability as opposed to gender. This is simply a publicity stunt arranged to please dumb-sh*t feminists.