Internet Petition Demands Dark Souls Drop GFWL

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I love Steam, but "no Steam or no sale" applies to say many games no it's not funny, and Steam's monopoly is not a good thing for the industry. I for one am more disappointed than angry in Origin, for example; what could have been genuine competition for Steam from a big name in the industry is instead an intrusive and much maligned piece of trash. Same with GFWL - both show potential, and both are held back by wildly illogical design decisions.

I'd rather every game was either sold without DRM, or sold on a wide variety of platforms. "Steam or bust" just reeks of pettiness, but it's also a dangerous sort of petty; the kind that sees a lot of games from a lot of developers sweeped under the carpet because they aren't selling on Steam. It's stupid, and it gives Steam a hand up that it hasn't earned.

soulfire130:

I'll be honest and say it was hard trying to find a example (which I apparently failed at doing). What I was trying to get at was there has to be another way of letting the devs know about the consumers disapproval other than having a petition say "Change this NOW!" That's all I'm saying.

Actually, I can't think of anything more civilized then a petition. And it's not so much a case of them saying "Change this NOW" as much as it is them saying "Change this or we won't buy your game".

Would you rather them just pull a Retake Mass Effect and sent Namco 400 cupcakes, except all the icing was replaced with poo? It's a perfectly good cupcake underneath, and Namco might have wanted this brand of cupcake for a long, LONG time, but the poo on top totally ruins it as a whole.

... I wonder where exactly in my train of thought my pointing at Retake Mass Effect turned into an analogy for GFWL... I swear it wasn't intentional when I started typing this post.

I would take ANYTHING over GFWL. Even *shudder* Origin. And I hate Origin.

SargentToughie:

soulfire130:

I'll be honest and say it was hard trying to find a example (which I apparently failed at doing). What I was trying to get at was there has to be another way of letting the devs know about the consumers disapproval other than having a petition say "Change this NOW!" That's all I'm saying.

Actually, I can't think of anything more civilized then a petition. And it's not so much a case of them saying "Change this NOW" as much as it is them saying "Change this or we won't buy your game".

Would you rather them just pull a Retake Mass Effect and sent Namco 400 cupcakes, except all the icing was replaced with poo? It's a perfectly good cupcake underneath, and Namco might have wanted this brand of cupcake for a long, LONG time, but the poo on top totally ruins it as a whole.

... I wonder where exactly in my train of thought my pointing at Retake Mass Effect turned into an analogy for GFWL... I swear it wasn't intentional when I started typing this post.

I understand. Its just that it feels like people will form a petition over everything.

Also, the Retake Mass Effect thing is still on everyone minds right now so it undertandable to have used it as an analogy.

AnarchistAbe:

Roboto:

Thing is, the older you get and the more indentured you become in the business, the more you find out EVERYTHING in the entire games and systems industry boils down to the all powerful cost benefits analysis. There wasn't going to be a port, someone initially crunched the numbers and said "no way, waste." Then 93,000 sigs popped into existence, and even taking away 20,000 of those as bandwagon and another 10,000 for piracy buffer of those sigs gives you 63,000 buys. It's not absolute math as it is speculative and I have no way to back up those numbers, but neither do they, and sometimes speculation is the only way we can get results. Anyway, 63,000 x profit margin = TotalProfitFromPort. TotalProfitFromPort > CostOfPort = PortGetsMade. The initial value to the crunchers had totalprofitfromport much lower I assume, which is why it doesn't get made. Same reason Halo 3 never got a PC edition. What this newest petition does is subtract from TotalProfitFromPort. My last post encompasses that variable.

Either way, you may have heard "decide with your wallet" which can be frustrating to hear because you may like the property but there is a part of it you hate and do not want to support. Not buying it to teach them a lesson means not getting the part you want, and the potential to cause a misunderstanding that the part you wanted WAS the bad part that made you not buy it. Oops. That is what stops the sequel from being made. What these guys did is do a Commander Shepard: they took a third option. Tell the company that a lot of us do not like a specific part of the product, but that we love all the rest of it (seems obvious). Now here is the exact number of us who do not like that specific part.

It is all a numbers game. They have samples and numbers of their own, we're just providing them with our own numbers to help them exact things out. It has always been a numbers game and always will be. You know this for yourself though as you do seem smart. We're just so used to seeing all those numbers from one side (devs) and it is interesting that it is all swinging the other way; seeing numbers coming from the gamer side and actually impacting things is unusual and so I would qualify that as news, or even a trend.

I agree with a large majority of this. I'm just saying. It'd be like me not having enough cookies, and you not having one. I go bake you a special cookie that takes up a lot of my time and effort. Then, you decide that I didn't use the right chocolate chips in my cookie, and you throw it in my face. Isn't that a bit of a dick move?

In your scenario yes, dick move. Now if we exacerbate on it a bit, and me and my 97,000 friends were waving money in front of you to make us that special cookie. You relent and make that cookie, and while making it, you accidentally and not to your knowledge grab the cayenne pepper, the lid falls off while you're not watching, and bake it up. Now, don't get me wrong, a few people may like this different taste. But the vast majority are going to get burned. Same principle as not everything free is good: if someone leaves a bag of dog shit on your porch, that's free but undesirable. Since money is involved, we can't really use kindness of our hearts as arguments, which kind of kills what I just mentioned.

Maybe it wasn't even an accident. Maybe you thought I like cayenne pepper in cookies. What the petition is showing is that no, we do not like that flavor. Not in my cookies.

AnarchistAbe:

I agree with a large majority of this. I'm just saying. It'd be like me not having enough cookies, and you not having one. I go bake you a special cookie that takes up a lot of my time and effort. Then, you decide that I didn't use the right chocolate chips in my cookie, and you throw it in my face. Isn't that a bit of a dick move?

A corporation is not your friend. A corporation doesn't get hurt when you don't enjoy the things they create.

When you go into a restaurant if you order food and you legit don't like that food and have a decent enough reason they go out of their way to make it right.

Your analogy fails horribly.

I'm far less disturbed by customers telling businesses what they want to spend their money on (you know, the free market), and far more disturbed by the trend to stifle or discourage all critical thoughts and opinions by using derogatory terms like whiners, bitching, and analogies that make no sense.

But hey I'm sure you have your reasons for defending the unfeeling corporations which exist only to make money from the burden of having to spend a tiny bit more money and time to meet the simple requests of their customers. I mean why should people get what they want when corporations can make 2% more profits this year?

soulfire130:

I understand. Its just that it feels like people will form a petition over everything.

Also, the Retake Mass Effect thing is still on everyone minds right now so it undertandable to have used it as an analogy.

It's cool, I can sorta see how some people can find this kind of activism annoying.

This IS the second petition almost back to back about the same game that PC gamers have kicked up. It doesn't take a lot to please us, I swear, just stop trying to dick us over and we'll absolutely love you for it.

Take note, developers.

I signed the petition, begrudgingly.

GFWL is bad. Incredi-bad. It ruined my experience in Arkham City because it was like this clock ticking on my PC forcing me to rush through the game JUST so I could get those unness. processes uninstalled from my PC.

However, Even though I called it not being on Steam I dont see Steam being much better, because its trading one set of problems for another. Owning the PS3 version of which it was preordered I had intended also preorder the PC version. Not because I need two copies, but because I wanted to support From Software in producing more Souls games.

However, placing it on steam so I can have a license instead of owning it is really not going to encourage me to buy it. (Not that GFWL did anything different)

Honestly? Id like to see them do the right thing. Talk to the guys over at GoG and release it DRM free as it should be. Though Amazon downloads is sufficient if for the inexplicable reason GoG is not. I knew it would not be on steam. Im actually surprised people just assumed it would be on steam. I really dont care if its on steam or not.

The ONLY justification I can see to support one license platform over another, is that steam would likely make multiplayer connectivity more usable.

Now I will not say No steam/No Sale but by going with GFWL exclusively it has greatly reduced the priority of this for me. It just went from preorder to a wait and see. and Honestly, steam would only further facilitate that for me, because if it was offered on GFWL AND steam only, I would not buy until the title was like 5-10$ on steam. Sorry but its true. If its released via GoG I will preorder. Otherwise, no.

ccdohl:
Master race? Hahahaha that's funny. haha hah haaaaaaaah.

But seriously, what's with that?

Watch any of Yahtzee's videos about the Witcher games and you'll get the joke.

Edit: On topic, I'm definitely not part of the "no steam, no sale" group, but I most certainly am part of the "yes GFWL, no sale" group. That thing is a colossal piece of shit that needs to just die already.

Just play the damn game if you like the game. Don't like GFWL that much? - don't buy said game, simple as that.

It's not a dealbreaker for me, but I'll be really, really happy if they got rid of it.

And I like this petition thing - if it reaches 1/3 of 1/2 of the "Dark Souls for PC" votes, it'd give Namco something to think about. Though I'm pretty doubtful they'd break their contract with Microsoft.

I have to say that my feelings about the news that Dark Souls was coming to the PC and then hearing later it has GFWL, is like getting to sleep with the prom queen and then hearing later she has AIDS.

But like many other users I have had troubles with GFWL, not only for multiplayer but singleplayer games as well. First heart break was that I couldn't play SFIV online, then I decided that I should not buy any GFWL game that I wanted to play online. Then I got Bulletstorm, and that took forever to get working (downloading patches and restarts again and again), and I was only trying to play singleplayer mode.
There haven't been many other GFWL games that I have bought, and Bulletstorm is probably the last one I ever will. So in the future I am not going to allow myself to get excited about a pc game until I know for sure it's not infected by GFWL.

On another note, I am no big fan of Steam but I have spent 1000s of hours playing TF2, L4D and Brink multiplayer as well a lot of singleplayer games as well, so I think it's adequate.
So on final note, I think a game that has a strong multiplayer element like Dark Souls (and Demon's Souls before it) should take care in selecting a online component that works. There are a lot of anecdotal evidence to find online about GFWL's problems, some written by gamers who are also computer professional as well, so it shouldn't be taken lightly.

I just registered to make this comment, but I guess I should go back to lurker mode by now.

If some shitty program that in all reality takes five seconds to ignore gets in the way of you buying a game you like, you're an idiot. Yeah, yeah, it's cute how you're taking your little stand and all, but no one else cares.

It's like the Origin crap; yeah, I don't like it either, but not once did it ever get in the way of anything I have ever done with games that use it.

But whatever. Quick, everyone! Jump on the hate GFWL boat while you still can! It's so cool.

I am sorry but I have had nothing but bad experiences with GFWL. At this point I don't buy games that use it. If it takes a petition to make these guys hear that, great. Otherwise I don't get to play the game and they don't get that extra sale.

AnarchistAbe:

I agree with a large majority of this. I'm just saying. It'd be like me not having enough cookies, and you not having one. I go bake you a special cookie that takes up a lot of my time and effort. Then, you decide that I didn't use the right chocolate chips in my cookie, and you throw it in my face. Isn't that a bit of a dick move?

I think it's more like, me saying i'm willing to buy the cookies you've only sold to other people exclusively. Then when your baking it you sprinkle pebbles into the mix as well and act as if it's no big deal. GWFL is a deal-breaker for good reason.

I was kinda curious after all the good press I'd heard, and was looking forward to the PC release, but sating my curiousity isn't worth the hassle.

I am glad I didn't try to jump on the PC gaming pony when I updated my PC, I mean... I'm just not much of a masochist. I guess I am spoiled, I like popping games into my console and just playing them without having to deal with BS. A novel concept, I know, but somehow it works. The madness of it all!

I used games for windows live for 3 days when palying GTA 4, it was so annoyign that at one point it decided to delete all my saves. after that i went the not so legal way and made sure my legal copy of GTA4 used no games for windows live.

If some shitty program that in all reality takes five seconds to ignore gets in the way of you buying a game you like, you're an idiot.

if some shitty program ups and decides to delete your savegames when your in the middle of campaign does not get into your way of buying games, you're an idiot.

Nobody in their right mind will use GFWL for their PC game unless they've been paid by Microsoft. God I hate that company with a passion.

Edit: still sticking to PS3 for my multiplatform.

AnarchistAbe:
IT ISN'T OUT YET!!! How do you know it doesn't work? I have never once had an issue with GFWL.

Well aren't you a lucky little sod. I've had problems with GFWL EVERY SINGLE TIME I've tried to use it. I always end up getting an xliveless dll and sodding the whole mess, and if that means no multiplayer that means no multiplayer.

Fuck GFWL. It's awful and needs to ragequit the industry entirely.

Andy of Comix Inc:
I love Steam, but "no Steam or no sale" applies to say many games no it's not funny, and Steam's monopoly is not a good thing for the industry. I for one am more disappointed than angry in Origin, for example; what could have been genuine competition for Steam from a big name in the industry is instead an intrusive and much maligned piece of trash. Same with GFWL - both show potential, and both are held back by wildly illogical design decisions.

I'd rather every game was either sold without DRM, or sold on a wide variety of platforms. "Steam or bust" just reeks of pettiness, but it's also a dangerous sort of petty; the kind that sees a lot of games from a lot of developers sweeped under the carpet because they aren't selling on Steam. It's stupid, and it gives Steam a hand up that it hasn't earned.

Hey, if we did away with DRM, then pirates would have five extra minutes of free time before cracking it.

Steam is at least relatively unobtrusive, but probably most importantly where Dark Souls is concerned, has a large community of connected gamers, which will make it easier to find people to do multiplayer bits with.

80Maxwell08:

AnarchistAbe:
IT ISN'T OUT YET!!! How do you know it doesn't work? I have never once had an issue with GFWL.

I have had issues with it before and so have so many others. The other topic regarding this game and GFWL shows plenty of people who have issues with it. Also let me show you something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5w0vxErA8&feature=g-user-u
The analogy is at the beginning. You are the one telling people to eat crap and deal with it.

My analogy for GFWL on Dark Souls goes as follows:

Imagine going to a 5-star restaurant and ordering a steak with all the trimmings, a little while later your steak arrives and the waiter lifts the lid off the platter to show you your delicious meal.

It looks amazing but then you notice that there's a little bit of poo on the side of the dish; sure you can eat around it but suddenly the meal isn't nearly as appetizing even if the steak is the best steak ever to grace this mortal plane.

OT:

I'm still gonna buy the game since it is one of my favorite games ever (And I promised in the first petition) but I'm still disappointed that I have to use GFWL given the many problems I've encountered with it in the past.

therandombear:
Some people are never happy...

I can understand the disappointment for GFWL, I've used it before, mainly when I played FO3 and DoW2, but at least they got the game for the PC.

Baby steps. ;)

But.. there IS NO REASON to use GFWL. No reason. At all.

AnarchistAbe:
IT ISN'T OUT YET!!! How do you know it doesn't work? I have never once had an issue with GFWL.

I had to drop my Warhammer 40k 2 pre-order when I played beta. Game kept crashing on GFWL for no reason... Never played more than an hour of multiplayer. It was simply impossible to enjoy the game.

Baresark:

Alma Mare:
Hope the port fails to profit. Teach them idiots a lesson.

That'll teach them alright. They just won't bother putting anymore games on the PC again, haha.

We lose shitty ports, they lose revenue. Guess who'll hate it more?

So the pc gaming community manages to generate a Dark Souls port out of basically thin air, and everyone is (rightly) happy about it.

Then Namco decides to go with pretty much everyone's fifth or sixth choice for distribution. The pc gaming community tries to prevent this mistake using the exact same means as before... and people call us entitled?

We told Namco we'd buy the game on PC if they port it. Now we're telling them it's a bad idea to use GFWL. We want the best possible Dark Souls experience we can get. They want our money. What exactly is wrong with this quasi-dialogue we've established to accomplish our respective goals?

If you're a person stuck in the mindset of "hey, they did something nice for you already" (which is beyond obtuse given the obvious financial factors at play), I've got another question for you: wouldn't it be incredibly rude of us pc gamers NOT to start a petition against GFWL? I mean what if they port DS and all of the people who promised to buy it end up failing to do so because of GFWL? Then they went to all the work of porting the game for nothing, and we pc gamers look like a bunch of liars.

If GFWL is a deal breaker for a large portion of the people who signed the original petition, they have a duty to let Namco know about it BEFORE the game is released.

so they finally give you a dark souls pc port and you bitch about how it's wrong

i will admit i don't know why this is so bad, will someone give me a non biased description of what it is?

Buretsu:

Andy of Comix Inc:
I love Steam, but "no Steam or no sale" applies to say many games no it's not funny, and Steam's monopoly is not a good thing for the industry. I for one am more disappointed than angry in Origin, for example; what could have been genuine competition for Steam from a big name in the industry is instead an intrusive and much maligned piece of trash. Same with GFWL - both show potential, and both are held back by wildly illogical design decisions.

I'd rather every game was either sold without DRM, or sold on a wide variety of platforms. "Steam or bust" just reeks of pettiness, but it's also a dangerous sort of petty; the kind that sees a lot of games from a lot of developers sweeped under the carpet because they aren't selling on Steam. It's stupid, and it gives Steam a hand up that it hasn't earned.

Hey, if we did away with DRM, then pirates would have five extra minutes of free time before cracking it.

Steam is at least relatively unobtrusive, but probably most importantly where Dark Souls is concerned, has a large community of connected gamers, which will make it easier to find people to do multiplayer bits with.

Well, it makes sense for Dark Souls, but a lot of people apply it to other games, even single-player games.

Reading through this I see way too many people claiming this is a bad thing. Whether you're jealous that fans of other games are getting more attention than you, or if you're just a whiner; can we please stop this nonsense of trying to claim that people asking for something they want from companies is so much of a bad thing?

This is, or at least was for a while, a time when everyone is complaining that companies are doing nothing but what gave them easy profit; taking no risks, DRMing and ruining the gaming market for consumers, while no one was doing anything to stop them. Now that people are taking the initiative and actually trying to get heard, and prove to gaming companies they aren't doing good, people are complaining about it.

You know, I do get it; like I said before there's jealousy and there's people who just like to complain, but honestly companies SHOULD be recognising what their consumers want and what better way to do it than trying to tell them ourselves.

This whole Dark Souls GFWL is a perfect example; to some it seems a very small thing, but a lot of people dislike GFWL. The consumers are now telling them they don't like it and that it would be a change for the better if it were available elsewhere, which is difficult to argue it wouldn't be. Why is it such a bad thing for people to be working towards that?

Please stop complaining about these sorts of things just because you can, it helps no one.

devilofthemist:
so they finally give you a dark souls pc port and you bitch about how it's wrong

i will admit i don't know why this is so bad, will someone give me a non biased description of what it is?

Read the thread ;) Or just google info on GFWL. I

t's worked ok for me on the one game I own that used it, but even then it was an encumbrance since it was bundled with a Steam game ("I heard you like DRM..."), and just served to cause more hassle that was most unwelcome. Dark Souls has enough hype to interest me, but that's not going to make me put up with a DRM system that's caused so much trouble for so many people.

xPixelatedx:
I am glad I didn't try to jump on the PC gaming pony when I updated my PC, I mean... I'm just not much of a masochist. I guess I am spoiled, I like popping games into my console and just playing them without having to deal with BS. A novel concept, I know, but somehow it works. The madness of it all!

Between Origin and Steam i have 170 games. Never had to even leave my house to get them, autopatch, cloud saves, sweet mods on some of them, many of them on a 2-3 month after launch 33% or more sale.

Out of that i have had problems with 5, and had problems that took more than 2 mins to solve with 2 of that 5, one of them due Punkbuster (anticheat piece of crap).

Using GFWL won't even be a mayor annoyance unless your objective on the game is PvP, and AFAIK PvP there is a joke, but it's a bad move for both the producer and the consumer.

Consoles might have advantages, but the easiness of use is not one of them, unless of course you are computer illiterate.

shintakie10:

AnarchistAbe:

shintakie10:
What an odd argument to make. Do you really believe that Microsoft, after not updatin GFWL for massive blockbusters like Fallout 3, would waste (in their minds) any amount of time fixin issues that have plagued GFWL since its inception because of a port of Dark Souls? If so you are far more of an optimist than anyone in the history of optimists.

Are you telling me that you TRULY see nothing wrong with the constant outrage from gamers? Even over things we ASK for, but don't like the implementation?

'

When the outrage isn't misplaced? Why yes...yes I do. I'm tired of developers takin advantage of our good will. I'm tired of publishers treatin us as little more than open wallets they can take from when they please. I'm tired of bein forced to use absolutely horrendous pieces of crap like GFWL or Origin to play my friggin games. Despite the fact that the platform actually works I'm tired of needin Steam for practically anythin that isn't usin GFWL and I'm tired of bein treated like a criminal because devs and publishers make shitty PC ports that no one buys and then blame piracy when it is their own damn fault.

I am done bein pushed around by publishers and developers that think they can get away with whatever the fuck they want. Puttin shit like GFWL when the issues are so very well documented that you'd have to purposely ignore everythin wrong with it for absolutely no reason shows such a general lack of disregard for the consumer that it comes off as little more than a gigantic middle finger to them. Sure we got our cookie that they never planned to make, but I don't have to accept a cookie while they are actively flippin me off with their other hand.

Please stop talking to him, he is just a complete nutjob who rages against anything, and never agrees with anyone. It's like a new version of Zeel, only where Zeel restricted himself to Mass Effect 3, AnarchistAbe goes bonkers against everything.

Just report and move along. The sooner we get rid of this anarchist troll, the better.

Initial reaction:

Then i read it, and found that they are just asking for GFWL to be removed. The title is really misleading. They aren't demanding anything, they are asking (rather politely) to not use GFWL, they even suggest other ways to distribute it.

Also, can anyone tell me, what is the perk by using GFWL as a dev/publisher? I really see the game doing great on Steam, but GFWL? I could only imagine anyone would use it cause they got a sum of money by Microsoft, or something..

FieryTrainwreck:

Then Namco decides to go with pretty much everyone's fifth or sixth choice for distribution. The pc gaming community tries to prevent this mistake using the exact same means as before... and people call us entitled?

Yes, because anything short of buying without question now appears to equate to "entitlement."

I just started playing Arkham Asylum because I wanted a game to play with my 360 controller, and GFWL is souring its experience. The only positive thing about it is that the Guide button on the controller controls the GFWL console just as I hoped it would.

Glad to see people are handling this in a mature way. I barely even play the pc and even I've managed to hate gfwl. It's a bloody mess honestly.

I wish they'd handled the mass effect 3 ending controversy like this. People should have made a polite petition to change or expand upon the endings.

This is funny. First the petition for Dark Souls on the PC, and now that it's coming, they're petitioning because it comes with a service people don't like. Lets be honest here. GFWL isn't ideal, but you sign in once, and it does it automatically after that. The earlier Dawn of Wars, Batman:AA and AC, and even GTA IV all had it and I largely forgot it was even there. It's not the dealbreaker everyone is making it out to be.

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