FBI and Australian Police Raid Xbox 720 Leaker's House

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Colt47:
Yes, a mindless automaton is a person now...

Well yeah, I mean we let [insert disliked political group here]s vote, don't we?

I thought that the FBI was only allowed to handle things inside the U.S. CIA handles things outside of the U.S. So confused.
Anyway, I hope they throw the book at this guy. Sounds like he has no respect for anyone but himself. People like him make me angry because they bleed arrogance and try to make it look like they're the victim when they were the one breaking the law.

AstaresPanda:
America needs to f**k off already, they are not the world police, no one like they way they run anything. The ONLY thing they did right was help out during WW2 but that was only after letting perl harbor get the crap beat outta it so they had a reason. Otherwise piss off. America is barely 230 years old....grow some pubes then you might be able tell ppl what to do.

You really want to go down that road? We helped in WW1 as well.

OP:Why the hell is the FBI in Australia? Aren't they supposed to only deal with domestic crimes?

RhombusHatesYou:

Most contracts establish which jurisdiction's laws the contract will be interpreted under and who's courts will be the venues for settling all legal matters involving the contract(ones that don't do so are bad contracts and can cause all sorts of problems)... so the contract issues will be settled whereever the contracts say they will be settled.

As for the FBI, any crime that crosses state borders in the US comes under their jurisdiction, so I'm guessing crossing national borders does the same, as well as federal crimes and some other stuff... they might have only had an agent on-scene as an observer allowed as a courtesy by the WA plods because of the possibility of extradition.

The other possibility is that they let the FBI agent come along to scare the piss out of the guy and get him shitting himself about possibly being extradited so he'd be more cooperative with the WA plods.

As for extradition itself... ennnhhh... tough call. He's not accused of a capital crime so there's nothing to prevent an extradition hearing going ahead... the rest depends on which country the hearing decides has the best claim on the right to put him to criminal trial (extradition for civil matters is close to impossible to get here).

I guess that makes sense, but now I really want to see what would happen when a Chinese citizen does this because if I recall properly, China almost always refuses to to extradite its citizens and it doesn't seem to care that it has citizens that make and sell knockoffs.

Good. The douchebag deserved it. If memory serves me correctly, if you're contracted or whatever to work on confidential/classified tech.. There's an NDA you MUST sign. Break the NDA? You're fucked.
Die in a fire, "SuperDaE".
Also, huh. At least the West Australian police here are good at *something*. Good.

And some people seemed to read half a story. Wasn't just the FBI, you "MAH FREEDOMZ ;_______________;" twats. Australian police were heavily involved as well. Again, die in *all* the fires, SuperDaE. I may not like Microsoft's Xbox division as much these days, but fuck you to anyone who takes on confidential, NDA-signed work and then tries to be a douche by "selling the info".

MattAn24:
Good. The douchebag deserved it. If memory serves me correctly, if you're contracted or whatever to work on confidential/classified tech.. There's an NDA you MUST sign. Break the NDA? You're [REDACTED].
Die in a fire, "SuperDaE".
Also, huh. At least the West Australian police here are good at *something*. Good.

And some people seemed to read half a story. Wasn't just the FBI, you "MAH FREEDOMZ ;_______________;" [REDACTED]. Australian police were heavily involved as well. Again, die in *all* the fires, SuperDaE. I may not like Microsoft's Xbox division as much these days, but [REDACTED] you to anyone who takes on confidential, NDA-signed work and then tries to be a douche by "selling the info".

Fully agreed with the above.

Also: This guy was in WESTERN AUSTRALIA the whole time!? I thought he was in the USA somewhere! It's reassuring to know that breaking an NDA you had to physically sign over here results in some serious consequences.

Crap... I'll have to tell my friend with the iPhone 6 about this...

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: The above statement is a work of fiction and entirely the product of the author's imagination. Any resemblance to real events, objects, places and persons living or dead is unintentional and purely coincidential

Sniper Team 4:
I thought that the FBI was only allowed to handle things inside the U.S. CIA handles things outside of the U.S. So confused.
Anyway, I hope they throw the book at this guy. Sounds like he has no respect for anyone but himself. People like him make me angry because they bleed arrogance and try to make it look like they're the victim when they were the one breaking the law.

The FBI is Microsoft's security force apparently and country lines don't apply. So, does this mean that all those rumors based off of the dev kit were true?

All I got from this article was that the new Xbox will REQUIRE Kinect in order to even work.

How did I not know this already

Seriously, fuck Microsoft.

AstaresPanda:
America needs to f**k off already, they are not the world police, no one like they way they run anything. The ONLY thing they did right was help out during WW2 but that was only after letting perl harbor get the crap beat outta it so they had a reason. Otherwise piss off. America is barely 230 years old....grow some pubes then you might be able tell ppl what to do.

There wouldn't have been Nazis if Europe hadn't given Germany the bill for WW1. Even if it wasn't for the best of intentions, the US did help clean up the mess left over from the terrible political decisions left over from WW1. And then gave away free money to European countries to help them rebuild. Also, the US has been a democracy for about 200 years longer than Spain.

Sniper Team 4:
I thought that the FBI was only allowed to handle things inside the U.S. CIA handles things outside of the U.S. So confused.
Anyway, I hope they throw the book at this guy. Sounds like he has no respect for anyone but himself. People like him make me angry because they bleed arrogance and try to make it look like they're the victim when they were the one breaking the law.

The inside the USA thing is regarding intelligence matters. CIA is an intelligence service, the FBI is an intelligence and (in certain matters) a police service of sorts. If industrial espionage is a federal offense (and I'd be rather surprised if it wasn't), that would make it FBI. Their are likely two strands of the investigation - the US based side, conducted by the FBI, which investigates the crime itself, and the Australian side, investigating the perpetrator. Teams from either side will be liaising with one another in order to resolve the case - FBI agents in Australia, Australian Federal Police Detectives in the USA. Fairly straightforward, and very common these days.

Okay, 7-8 police and an FBI agent? What a waste of tax money. He stole a freaking games console. You should need no more than three local constables to deal with that (two to restrain the guy and one to carry the stolen console once it's found).

knight steel:

Saulkar:

Fasckira:
deserves the full whack.

I more or less agree but I firmly believe it should be left to Australian authorities. He broke the law and several contracts and it will hit him hard however it should not be something that cripples his ability to recover after his has served his time/fine instead of a 80+ million dollar lawsuit/10 years in prison overseas. Obvious hyperbole however I find it odd(sarcasm) that the FBI would be the ones to deal with this instead of run of the mill cops.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This a thousand times this, they didn't need the FBI to handle a guy like this it was overkill, plus it happened on Australia soil and he's an Australian therefore us Aussies should be the one to deal with this.
This includes being in an Australian court and sentenced to an Australian jail, I wonder if America would let Australia get involved like this if the positions were reversed.

Probably, yes. Though I guess if it was really high profile, the US would try and prosecute first then send them to the other country to also be prosecuted.

But if the other nation had the same quality proof that we had, in this case, I would say yes. Though I really want to get "This Week in Law" opinion on it from TWIT.

All I got from this is a confirmation that the specs were legit. So now we know what the 720 is capable of, interesting. Thanks for raiding his house so what he posted could be confirmed!

Roxor:
Okay, 7-8 police and an FBI agent? What a waste of tax money. He stole a freaking games console. You should need no more than three local constables to deal with that (two to restrain the guy and one to carry the stolen console once it's found).

A "freaking" game console that has the potential to make/lose Microsoft millions of dollars. Not really a "console", more of a development kit to make games for the next gen console. Also, law enforcement would need more then one person to search a house, I have never heard of a police officer searching a house alone (though if it were small apartment maybe, but even then they like numbers). They confiscated all his computers (for financial records from Paypal and Ebay) and all game consoles because one of them probably had the dev kit on it.

Though I will agree about sending an FBI agent to Australia. I think we can trust the Aussies to follow protocol.

Gilhelmi:
A "freaking" game console that has the potential to make/lose Microsoft millions of dollars.

...How? I am pretty sure I've seen dev kits to other consoles being sold on ebay, those didn't bring down the companies they were affiliated with. Is this because the 720 isn't out yet? Well, the specs are public now, damage is done in that regard. Not that keeping these secrets is doing them any good to begin with. Sony and Nintendo already played their hands, it's not like someone is going to try and copy or outdo them; they don't need to.

I'd imagine that the reason the FBI got involved is because Microsoft is an American company so they had to get the stuff from Microsoft and then hand it off to the Aussies. Hopefully though they find out this guy is faking it, I hat the idea of always on Kinect.

xPixelatedx:

Gilhelmi:
A "freaking" game console that has the potential to make/lose Microsoft millions of dollars.

...How? I am pretty sure I've seen dev kits to other consoles being sold on ebay, those didn't bring down the companies they were affiliated with. Is this because the 720 isn't out yet? Well, the specs are public now, damage is done in that regard. Not that keeping these secrets is doing them any good to begin with. Sony and Nintendo already played their hands, it's not like someone is going to try and copy or outdo them; they don't need to.

OK, I am really not sure it is legal to sell those on Ebay. I think the company licenses those out to developers and expects them to be returned. Though on older systems they might not care, but with an unreleased system, there is just too much money at stake to allow it.

I think I will wait for TWIL (this week in law) to explain the laws to me. Then I will come back and comment more.

I'm going to look at this from another perspective.

Microsoft and thus XBOX products are from a United States company. The XBOX 720 is in its "prototype" stage and is essentially the latest console technology to be released. This is something that has essentially been stolen and is being sold to either people who want to own one for personal use or (more likely) want to reverse engineer the thing for their own profit.

This is essentially theft of technology that was developed in (or at least with money from) the United States. The United States should be allowed to prevent such things from happening.

I still believe, however, they should first ask the LOCAL AUTHORITIES to prevent the technology from being distributed and prosecute the individual within those borders. Offer to provide SUPPORT to the operation to ensure its success, not oversee it.

I can not blame the United States for having an interest in this but their methods of attempting to secure their technological advancements (yes, I realize it's a console but the amount of money and manpower that goes into designing such things is nothing to turn your nose up at) need serious work.

Thomas Guy:

AstaresPanda:
America needs to f**k off already, they are not the world police, no one like they way they run anything. The ONLY thing they did right was help out during WW2 but that was only after letting perl harbor get the crap beat outta it so they had a reason. Otherwise piss off. America is barely 230 years old....grow some pubes then you might be able tell ppl what to do.

Though the last few lines are mildly insulting I agree. We really should become a lot more of an isolationist nation. If something happens here, we take care of it. Otherwise withdraw troops, money, aid, foreign aid workers,and stop getting into the middle of foreign investigations. We have plenty to worry about here without worrying about some sentient koala stealing an X Box kit.

no we shouldnt. we shouldnt police the world but we shouldnt withdraw and become isolationist again. If you withdraw money thats a very quick way to turn everyone agaisnt you after you've been a leading force on the donation front and a major supporter and body filler of the UN. Comes with being a global economic leader and super power (shut up, we are still until china takes over and dont give me the EU is better, then you have to compare to NAFTA who do better thant he EU as a trade union). Like it or not the US cant just bottle back up again. besides, it was a piss poor strategy and completely curbs development. Ask China till they opened up their borders to the foreign world. WHen you dont want to share other countries are just as likely not to want to share either.

OT Im kinda surprised the FBI had a part in this. I thought this might be more the CIA's deal. I dont see the point of extraditing him though. unless Australia completely cocks up and lets the guy walk with a slap on the hands but I dont know what precedent is for this type of thing in the land down under.

guy is an idiot though, and whether or not he was being sarcastic with his second tweet, it is infact hysterical especially the way you just put it out there for the world to see.

AstaresPanda:
America needs to f**k off already, they are not the world police, no one like they way they run anything. The ONLY thing they did right was help out during WW2 but that was only after letting perl harbor get the crap beat outta it so they had a reason. Otherwise piss off. America is barely 230 years old....grow some pubes then you might be able tell ppl what to do.

First off you know nothing about international politics as it comes to police forces. Second, do you know how many countries would be in serious economic trouble if we withdrew from the world? Third, don't you think it would be wise to not go about insulting an entire country when you obviously know nothing of what you speak? Instead you just want to jump on the whole America bashing thing that seems so popular here on the escapist. It doesn't make you look cool or intelligent my friend.

OT: There was one FBI agent there, and that is to ensure the interests of an American Corporation is served (a corporation that donates crap tons of money every year to our country at that). One agent does not mean he was there as an enforcement team, that was handled by the Australian authorities as it should have been. However this is an American issue as he had to sign documents in the US to obtain a Dev kit in the first place (unless it was stolen), or if it was stolen from an US party then it also falls under the jurisdiction of the FBI to investigate and ensure that US interests are looked after.

Nowhere does it say that this lone FBI agent was trying to apprehend the subject on his own, nor does it say that the FBI agent was trying to enforce American law on an Australian citizen. The same thing would have happened in reverse had it been an Australian company and an American citizen, with the exception that we probably would have allowed for extradition (well maybe not after the way Australia has withheld some people from facing justice over here).

As for the people saying it should have been under the CIA jurisdiction, you are wrong. The CIA is for gathering intel on foreign interests, while the FBI protects American interests (and works as a national law enforcement agency). The FBI was there to protect the interests of an US based corporation, and as such was working under the jurisdiction of the Australian government/police (as seen by the one agent and eight Australian police officers), as would be protocol for international crime (international crime, the subject is handled by the subjects country of citizenship while the country who's interests have been harmed has an observer to take note that the interests are handled properly).

So before anyone else gets on with the America Bashing the same thing would have happened had it been any other two countries that were allies, the only difference being that it is popular to bash America on these forums.

Just to clarify as there seems to be a lot of misinformation. The FBI is a primarily investigative body and handles domestic investigations that span local boundaries. However, when it comes to American interests abroad they have jurisdiction (within reason) to protect American interests. Seeing how Microsoft is an American corporation, I'm sure the FBI agent was there just to make a presence while the Australian locals handled much of the police work. That's how it usually goes as the FBI really has no jurisdiction on foreign soil and are mostly there to make a presence or ensure the investigation, evidence gathering, and all other aspects are performed in a suitable fashion.

So please don't think having a FBI presence is America overstepping its boundaries, it's to give Microsoft an ease of mind that their interests are looked after.

RhombusHatesYou:

Strazdas:
I believe he should be tried and put to his sentence in AUstralia, by Austrlian laws, as he is a citizen of Australia. He did not comit his crime outside of AUstralian borders (no, ebay is not American borders)

Actually, where exactly computer related crime occurs is a big question in legal circles.

Does it occur where the commands are originally sent from or where they are executed?

The answer is "which ever one you choose there are dozens of courts around the world that disgree with you."

I think internet should be treated like international waters. it does not belong to any one jurisdiction. That being said, an actual attack on the server should be considered an attack made on where that server is standing (not where the company owning is registered, for example i can own server in UK while being register company i USA and the attack should be considered on UK ground).

DigitalSushi:
Corporate Espionage, yeah he deserves that. I don't think he should be extradited though.

Vault101:
western Australia!? WOO!!!

I wonder where he is...probably perth...how did he get his hands on that stuff?

You thinking of doing a road trip?
Just go to Perth, look for a jittery fellow in a cafe tweeting.

Let's all go on a road trip! The guy probably has some good stories.

Kheapathic:
Just to clarify as there seems to be a lot of misinformation. The FBI is a primarily investigative body and handles domestic investigations that span local boundaries. However, when it comes to American interests abroad they have jurisdiction (within reason) to protect American interests. Seeing how Microsoft is an American corporation, I'm sure the FBI agent was there just to make a presence while the Australian locals handled much of the police work. That's how it usually goes as the FBI really has no jurisdiction on foreign soil and are mostly there to make a presence or ensure the investigation, evidence gathering, and all other aspects are performed in a suitable fashion.

So please don't think having a FBI presence is America overstepping its boundaries, it's to give Microsoft an ease of mind that their interests are looked after.

Still don't agree with the extradition direction the FBI want, though. He needs to be judged by the Australian court, not the US court. He'll be in deep either way, but at least he wont be an example of extreme legal over kill that the US court is likely to engage in.

The descision to extradite him will be up to the Australian courts though. And if they do extradite him, it will be because the reasons given adhere to those conditions set up in by a bilateral extradition treaty - and that means he does end up getting extradited, remember the reverse would be the case too (e.g. had he stolen information from an Australian firm and ended up selling it from the USA, he could be extradited to Australia).

Honestly, stopping people from stealing stuff from one country then and fleeing to another from evading justice is...pretty much the point of an extradition treaty

I'm not really sure what the crime is here. Y'know, cause breach of contract is not actually a crime, especially not one that the FBI should be investigating... you know, being a matter for the civil court and all.

I bet they've invented some euphemism to justify

DigitalSushi:
Corporate Espionage

whoop there we go. Smack the word espionage on it to make it sound as though it's a problem that can't be solved in civil court so that the feds can grab for more power whilst pretending to be useful. What's new?

Timothy Chang:
dissemination of confidential documents

Oh look another made up catchphrase to describe a non-crime.

Timothy Chang:
misuse of a computer and/or carrier service.

...huh? Misuse of services is a crime now? Hilarious. Just brilliant.

Move along, nothing to see here but a bunch of thugs inventing excuses to be thugs. Business (or should I say, government) as usual.

Kheapathic:
So please don't think having a FBI presence is America overstepping its boundaries, it's to give Microsoft an ease of mind that their interests are looked after.

The FBI has zero reason or responsibility to be looking out for Microsoft's interests, given that Microsoft is not a citizen of the United States.

Blablahb:
Good to know American and Australian tax dollars are being spent on usefull things, like doing legwork for large corporations, intimidating people for them, instead of wasting time on useless pursuits like catching murderers, or stopping domestic terror threats.

Mayamellissa:
The FBI invaded Australia to help raid a moron's house.
Do I have that right?

Probably they sold out like New Zealand did with the Kim Dotcom persecution, letting the FBI run riot with permission.

I'm pretty sure that the Computer Crime Squad isn't out stopping terrorists or catching murderers because that's not their job. This is their job.

Dang, a lot of people mad/confused over the FBI's involvement.

This isn't abnormal, law enforcement agencies cooperate all the time when dealing with international crimes.

People who leak stuff like this, I see as among the lowest forms of people in this world. He stole something, and he chooses to brag about it and try to make a profit. He deserves all of this.

DjinnFor:

Kheapathic:
So please don't think having a FBI presence is America overstepping its boundaries, it's to give Microsoft an ease of mind that their interests are looked after.

The FBI has zero reason or responsibility to be looking out for Microsoft's interests, given that Microsoft is not a citizen of the United States.

That makes no sense. That's like saying if someone broke into Microsoft headquarters then the police wouldn't be obligated to investigate.

Last I checked, Microsoft is an American corporation, and according to US Law corporations are considered citizens of the states they are incorporated in and therefore citizens of the United States.

I don't understand what, through all of this, Microsoft are up to. If there is a new Xbox dev kit available one would fairly presume the spec and/or (hardware) design of their (hopefully) forthcoming new console is pretty much final. How can dev kits exist which developers can confirm they've seen, but no announcement on a new console?

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