Torment Breaks Kickstarter Record

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AxelxGabriel:

Delcast:

Not saying that they should not be funded, but it's a shame that other excellent projects with fantastic ideas but not as much "fame" go under the radar and die. I've seen it happen way too much.. and so the smaller fish that was supposed to be the whole point of kickstarter, the ones that really NEED the investment, get screwed.

This whole team are getting together to make the game THEY want to make. Not come corperate write up that they have to do. Notto mention they're willing to take the time to flesh it out and make the best possible product they could give us.

When you get right down to it. Torment Tides of Numenera IS a fantastic idea and deserves every cent it got in the campaign.

Again.. I never said it shouldn't be funded but it becomes evident that they are not using the space as a kickstarter platform. They are not a small, starting developer with a great idea that no publishers will risk supporting, that needs a kick-start.
For example, if some studio pitched Baldur's Gate 3 (I know, no way to do it, story ended), lets face it.. just the idea of it would make 4million... is it a risky awesome idea? is it an indie endeavour? NO!
Sure Bethesda, obsidian, and developers everywhere would fight like cats and dogs over the rights... but thats the exact point... it is sure business, lets not delude ourselves into thinking that they'd NEED the kickstarter spotlight to make it happen.

Delcast:
You could probably pitch Torment to a middle range publisher that wouldn't be as ridiculously ignorant as they portray it and the game could do fine.

Strange assumptions going on here; both that that is possible, and that they didn't already try it. Hell, Fargo talks about spending five years trying to get funding for Wasteland. Shame he never had a helpful forum poster to say something like, "Hey, I'm sure a different publisher will be better!"

Delcast:
Not saying that they should not be funded, but it's a shame that other excellent projects with fantastic ideas but not as much "fame" go under the radar and die. I've seen it happen way too much.. and so the smaller fish that was supposed to be the whole point of kickstarter, the ones that really NEED the investment, get screwed.

Overshadowing can happen, especially for similar projects, but what you're talking about is generally the opposite of what happens. Small projects often see bumps in funding when big-name Kickstarter projects are in the news.

Oh, no! People like it when their investments go to reputable people instead of someone with "an idea"! That's what it comes down to, really. It's not about "fame" or "celebrity", it's about trust.

Delcast:

AxelxGabriel:

Delcast:

Not saying that they should not be funded, but it's a shame that other excellent projects with fantastic ideas but not as much "fame" go under the radar and die. I've seen it happen way too much.. and so the smaller fish that was supposed to be the whole point of kickstarter, the ones that really NEED the investment, get screwed.

This whole team are getting together to make the game THEY want to make. Not come corperate write up that they have to do. Notto mention they're willing to take the time to flesh it out and make the best possible product they could give us.

When you get right down to it. Torment Tides of Numenera IS a fantastic idea and deserves every cent it got in the campaign.

Again.. I never said it shouldn't be funded but it becomes evident that they are not using the space as a kickstarter platform. They are not a small, starting developer with a great idea that no publishers will risk supporting, that needs a kick-start.
For example, if some studio pitched Baldur's Gate 3 (I know, no way to do it, story ended), lets face it.. just the idea of it would make 4million... is it a risky awesome idea? is it an indie endeavour? NO!
Sure Bethesda, obsidian, and developers everywhere would fight like cats and dogs over the rights... but thats the exact point... it is sure business, lets not delude ourselves into thinking that they'd NEED the kickstarter spotlight to make it happen.

Just because someone has an idea, doesn't mean it'll automatically be good. The thing is, most kickstarter ideas are put forth by people we know NOTHING about, so it relies on blind faith on weather or not it'd be any good. It doesn't matter how good an idea is, there's always the big chance it'll crash and burn if it sucks. And whos fault will that be?

Whereas these guys have YEARS of experience and they know what they are doing when it comes to the product idea. Because we've SEEN what they can do with it. But they can't take it to a publisher because it's something purely niche and not many people might likeit. They said it themselves, they are NOT making this game with trying to attract the market at large. They're specifically targeting people who enjoy this kind of game.

it's not their fault that a LOT of people like this kind of game.

First off, I'd like to see the list of projects that didn't make it that seemed worthy at the time. I mean, even the throwing trucks with your mind project succeeded, and its buy-in was pretty high.

The Crotch:

Delcast:
You could probably pitch Torment to a middle range publisher that wouldn't be as ridiculously ignorant as they portray it and the game could do fine.

Strange assumptions going on here; both that that is possible, and that they didn't already try it. Hell, Fargo talks about spending five years trying to get funding for Wasteland. Shame he never had a helpful forum poster to say something like, "Hey, I'm sure a different publisher will be better!"

Delcast:
Not saying that they should not be funded, but it's a shame that other excellent projects with fantastic ideas but not as much "fame" go under the radar and die. I've seen it happen way too much.. and so the smaller fish that was supposed to be the whole point of kickstarter, the ones that really NEED the investment, get screwed.

Overshadowing can happen, especially for similar projects, but what you're talking about is generally the opposite of what happens. Small projects often see bumps in funding when big-name Kickstarter projects are in the news.

Oh, no! People like it when their investments go to reputable people instead of someone with "an idea"! That's what it comes down to, really. It's not about "fame" or "celebrity", it's about trust.

Exactly.. but the point of kickstarter is funding projects that the audience doesn't know and -can't- have any reason to trust other than the presentation of the project. If they are reliable and have a perfect track record, then they can probably get funded anyway. Just the media output and connections these companies have makes it a superbly uneven playing field... enter famestarter.
We all trust that say... blizzard can make a great game, but I'd find it a bit rich of them to make a kickstarter project for their new RTS, because noone wants to fund RTSs nowadays...

I would *love* to be in the next WotC board meeting where some heads are bound to be rolling. They seriously botched this and missed out on the bigest Kickstarter title to date. All the publicity they missed (not to mention the bad publicity for their refusal), the attention and potential customers for their products, the license fees...LOL. Fu****g morons.

I wonder if any big publishers are paying any attention to this stuff. Any idiot can see there's clearly still a market for deep, PC RPGs, but they insist only on bland shooters.

A.. planescape game? First i have heard, and I can't wait.

We need more CRPG's.

Just to clarify, the Planescape game came out in, like, '99. It didn't sell all that well, but it's damn good. This is the spiritual successor made using a different setting created by Planescape writer Monte Cook.

Delcast:

The Crotch:

Delcast:
You could probably pitch Torment to a middle range publisher that wouldn't be as ridiculously ignorant as they portray it and the game could do fine.

Strange assumptions going on here; both that that is possible, and that they didn't already try it. Hell, Fargo talks about spending five years trying to get funding for Wasteland. Shame he never had a helpful forum poster to say something like, "Hey, I'm sure a different publisher will be better!"

Delcast:
Not saying that they should not be funded, but it's a shame that other excellent projects with fantastic ideas but not as much "fame" go under the radar and die. I've seen it happen way too much.. and so the smaller fish that was supposed to be the whole point of kickstarter, the ones that really NEED the investment, get screwed.

Overshadowing can happen, especially for similar projects, but what you're talking about is generally the opposite of what happens. Small projects often see bumps in funding when big-name Kickstarter projects are in the news.

Oh, no! People like it when their investments go to reputable people instead of someone with "an idea"! That's what it comes down to, really. It's not about "fame" or "celebrity", it's about trust.

Exactly.. but the point of kickstarter is funding projects that the audience doesn't know and -can't- have any reason to trust other than the presentation of the project. If they are reliable and have a perfect track record, then they can probably get funded anyway. Just the media output and connections these companies have makes it a superbly uneven playing field... enter famestarter.
We all trust that say... blizzard can make a great game, but I'd find it a bit rich of them to make a kickstarter project for their new RTS, because noone wants to fund RTSs nowadays...

Bryan Fargo: "I tried for five years to get a small amount of funding for a small-scale, 90s-style sequel to an old RPG. Literally impossible. Not a single publisher would touch it. Politely feigned interest was the absolute best I could ever get out of a meeting."

Man on Internet: "You should have tried harder!"

Aside from that, your assertion of "the point of kickstarter is funding projects that the audience doesn't know and -can't- have any reason to trust other than the presentation of the project" is, as far as I know, nothing more than an assertion. Could you point me to the part on their website that states that they do not support known entities using their services?

weirdguy:
First off, I'd like to see the list of projects that didn't make it that seemed worthy at the time. I mean, even the throwing trucks with your mind project succeeded, and its buy-in was pretty high.

Go see Robota, Wildman, Shaker, Knights:spiral Island, or Bad planet or see Pulse which still has a few days to go, all fantastic games which simply recieve little coverage or are less lucky.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-12-kickstarter-more-than-half-of-game-projects-fail

truth is that when a project fails, it is not published a lot... noone wants to see stories of how people did not succeed. and those are actually pretty big.. the answer to why a project was not funded in kickstarter should not be "because noone knows you, and you cant prove that your idea will eb as cool as you say".

AxelxGabriel:

Delcast:

AxelxGabriel:

This whole team are getting together to make the game THEY want to make. Not come corperate write up that they have to do. Notto mention they're willing to take the time to flesh it out and make the best possible product they could give us.

When you get right down to it. Torment Tides of Numenera IS a fantastic idea and deserves every cent it got in the campaign.

Again.. I never said it shouldn't be funded but it becomes evident that they are not using the space as a kickstarter platform. They are not a small, starting developer with a great idea that no publishers will risk supporting, that needs a kick-start.
For example, if some studio pitched Baldur's Gate 3 (I know, no way to do it, story ended), lets face it.. just the idea of it would make 4million... is it a risky awesome idea? is it an indie endeavour? NO!
Sure Bethesda, obsidian, and developers everywhere would fight like cats and dogs over the rights... but thats the exact point... it is sure business, lets not delude ourselves into thinking that they'd NEED the kickstarter spotlight to make it happen.

Just because someone has an idea, doesn't mean it'll automatically be good. The thing is, most kickstarter ideas are put forth by people we know NOTHING about, so it relies on blind faith on weather or not it'd be any good. It doesn't matter how good an idea is, there's always the big chance it'll crash and burn if it sucks. And whos fault will that be?

Whereas these guys have YEARS of experience and they know what they are doing when it comes to the product idea. Because we've SEEN what they can do with it. But they can't take it to a publisher because it's something purely niche and not many people might like it. They said it themselves, they are NOT making this game with trying to attract the market at large. They're specifically targeting people who enjoy this kind of game.

it's not their fault that a LOT of people like this kind of game.

Again obvious...I'm not saying all failed kickstarters are good, that would be stupid.
Kickstarter IS MADE with the idea of having people who you -don't know anything about- with a great idea and the skills to complete the project.
The contrast being the many projects that DO have talented people with great ideas and skills and don't succeed, simply because they lack the looming mass of coverage these celebrity kickstarters get (or even worse, because they don't play to nostalgia trips or people pleasing pitches).

Just reminding you though, none of these "bigger studios" that have been funded by kickstarter have released their games yet... so they could very well suck. Many established well known studios have stinkers... so knowing what they have done in the past is not really any insurance.

Delcast:

The contrast being the many projects that DO have talented people with great ideas and skills and don't succeed, simply because they lack the looming mass of coverage these celebrity kickstarters get (or even worse, because they don't play to nostalgia trips or people pleasing pitches).

Dude, people WANT to be pleased by the product they buy. How does it make any sense that a product doesn't please the customer? That's how buying and selling stuff WORKS. Even people who donate money to a no-name project on kickstarter expect a product that should PLEASE them.

The Crotch:

Aside from that, your assertion of "the point of kickstarter is funding projects that the audience doesn't know and -can't- have any reason to trust other than the presentation of the project" is, as far as I know, nothing more than an assertion. Could you point me to the part on their website that states that they do not support known entities using their services?

I know about planescape, I know it didn't sell very well... I know how good it is, I played it back when it came out and I did like it. Not as much as a lot of people, but it was a good game.

About the assertion, sure.. maybe that's all it is.. maybe the name sort of implies it.. maybe that they claim that they are the new way to fund Independent projects.
Sure that doesn't exclude multi-million dollars projects.
I'm just observing that, if it continues this way, it's likely you'll see a lot more faces coming in, and a lot less truly independent projects fulfilled.

Delcast:

weirdguy:
First off, I'd like to see the list of projects that didn't make it that seemed worthy at the time. I mean, even the throwing trucks with your mind project succeeded, and its buy-in was pretty high.

Go see Robota, Wildman, Shaker, Knights:spiral Island, or Bad planet or see Pulse which still has a few days to go, all fantastic games which simply recieve little coverage or are less lucky.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-12-kickstarter-more-than-half-of-game-projects-fail

Dude. Your response includes a bunch of big-name Kickstarter projects that got plenty of press when they launched and involved well-known, well-respected talent. Fuck, man, Shaker didn't fail because Tom Hall's credentials aren't strong enough, it failed because it had a godawful pitch.

Akalabeth:
Picked up Planescape torment yesterday. Played it for a bit before some trio of skeletons started kicking my ass. Seems . . . okay so far . . .

If you are fighting skeletons, you are Doing It Wrong (tm). There is only 1 mandatory fight in the entire game, so you can happily level up to 20+ with conversations and solving puzzles alone. Plus you only get a dedicated healer around halfway through the game, so picking fights early on makes it annoying to regen.

Having said that, if you DO pick a fight - use Morte's taunt ability. He's a FAR better tank than Nameless One and once you pick up a couple of other companions you can happily use the others to bodyblock your target while they try to get at Morte (black Abishai give good xp early on if you want to overlevel to make running through hostile areas more easy).

The Crotch:

Delcast:

weirdguy:
First off, I'd like to see the list of projects that didn't make it that seemed worthy at the time. I mean, even the throwing trucks with your mind project succeeded, and its buy-in was pretty high.

Go see Robota, Wildman, Shaker, Knights:spiral Island, or Bad planet or see Pulse which still has a few days to go, all fantastic games which simply recieve little coverage or are less lucky.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-12-kickstarter-more-than-half-of-game-projects-fail

Dude. Your response includes a bunch of big-name Kickstarter projects that got plenty of press when they launched and involved well-known, well-respected talent. Fuck, man, Shaker didn't fail because Tom Hall's credentials aren't strong enough, it failed because it had a godawful pitch.

well just as a reminder again... Doublefine's kickstarter was pretty awful.. it had nearly no information on the project itself, all it based itself was in Tim Schaefer's quirky cool personality and fame. No-one had a problem there.. Tom hall was just not as famous...

Double Fine's Kickstarter was, like... almost a year before Shaker's. Standards for what a good pitch is have increased dramatically.

And even then, Shaker's was bad. I wanted so badly to get excited about it because, "Holy Shit! Anachronox dude!" but it was just... anti-hype.

Delcast:

The Crotch:

Aside from that, your assertion of "the point of kickstarter is funding projects that the audience doesn't know and -can't- have any reason to trust other than the presentation of the project" is, as far as I know, nothing more than an assertion. Could you point me to the part on their website that states that they do not support known entities using their services?

I know about planescape, I know it didn't sell very well... I know how good it is, I played it back when it came out and I did like it. Not as much as a lot of people, but it was a good game.

About the assertion, sure.. maybe that's all it is.. maybe the name sort of implies it.. maybe that they claim that they are the new way to fund Independent projects.
Sure that doesn't exclude multi-million dollars projects.
I'm just observing that, if it continues this way, it's likely you'll see a lot more faces coming in, and a lot less truly independent projects fulfilled.

The bit about PST was to the guy above me. Hence it not coming after your quote in my reply.

And if you want to get some evidence behind your assertion - both the one I pointed out, and the "if it continues this way, it's likely you'll see a lot more faces coming in, and a lot less truly independent projects fulfilled." assertion (nevermind what the fuck "truly independent" means) - then grab some numbers. Show me an increased rate of minor projects failing around the start or end date of a well-publicized Kickstarter. Or show me a decreased rate of minor projects beginning for the duration of a major project. Or something. Anything.

I am happy now. I'm doing my happy face. It's not very different from my neutral face (see avatar), except for a faint glow in my eyes.

It's kind of terrifying.

Korskarn:

Akalabeth:
Picked up Planescape torment yesterday. Played it for a bit before some trio of skeletons started kicking my ass. Seems . . . okay so far . . .

If you are fighting skeletons, you are Doing It Wrong (tm). There is only 1 mandatory fight in the entire game, so you can happily level up to 20+ with conversations and solving puzzles alone. Plus you only get a dedicated healer around halfway through the game, so picking fights early on makes it annoying to regen.

Having said that, if you DO pick a fight - use Morte's taunt ability. He's a FAR better tank than Nameless One and once you pick up a couple of other companions you can happily use the others to bodyblock your target while they try to get at Morte (black Abishai give good xp early on if you want to overlevel to make running through hostile areas more easy).

I'm having trouble thinking of where he would be fighting a trio of skeletons, assuming he didn't pick a fight with the Dead Nations. I vaguely recall a pseudo-monster closet elsewhere in the catacombs that could be super fucking rough, though. Either way, dude's made a lot of progress for only one day with the game.

My only real bit of advice fights-wise is to pay attention to where you can rest. The unused crypt with the mortuary portal is your first good resting spot. Old Mebbeth lets you sleep at her place in Ragpicker Square. There's another old lady in Pharod's kingdom that lets you rest, too, I think. It'll only give a small bit of healing to most people, but anyone with regeneration (like the main character) should get fully healed.

And turn off the AI once you get your healer, or she'll waste all her damn spells.

Korskarn:

Akalabeth:
Picked up Planescape torment yesterday. Played it for a bit before some trio of skeletons started kicking my ass. Seems . . . okay so far . . .

If you are fighting skeletons, you are Doing It Wrong (tm). There is only 1 mandatory fight in the entire game, so you can happily level up to 20+ with conversations and solving puzzles alone. Plus you only get a dedicated healer around halfway through the game, so picking fights early on makes it annoying to regen.

Hmmn, well some Duster alerted everyone so now I get attacked on site by everything in the place including the 3 giant skeletons. Probably have to wear them down one at a time or something to get to the blue ghost lady or whoever it is.

Oh, fuck! You're in the Mortuary. The skeleton guardians in the bottom. Right. Good luck. I'm assuming you can probably rest on the main floor of the place without much issue.

Sucks that you alerted the Dusties, though. Those skeletons go down nice and easy if nobody wakes them up first.

The Crotch:
Double Fine's Kickstarter was, like... almost a year before Shaker's. Standards for what a good pitch is have increased dramatically.

And even then, Shaker's was bad. I wanted so badly to get excited about it because, "Holy Shit! Anachronox dude!" but it was just... anti-hype.

Delcast:

The Crotch:

Aside from that, your assertion of "the point of kickstarter is funding projects that the audience doesn't know and -can't- have any reason to trust other than the presentation of the project" is, as far as I know, nothing more than an assertion. Could you point me to the part on their website that states that they do not support known entities using their services?

I know about planescape, I know it didn't sell very well... I know how good it is, I played it back when it came out and I did like it. Not as much as a lot of people, but it was a good game.

About the assertion, sure.. maybe that's all it is.. maybe the name sort of implies it.. maybe that they claim that they are the new way to fund Independent projects.
Sure that doesn't exclude multi-million dollars projects.
I'm just observing that, if it continues this way, it's likely you'll see a lot more faces coming in, and a lot less truly independent projects fulfilled.

The bit about PST was to the guy above me. Hence it not coming after your quote in my reply.

And if you want to get some evidence behind your assertion - both the one I pointed out, and the "if it continues this way, it's likely you'll see a lot more faces coming in, and a lot less truly independent projects fulfilled." assertion (nevermind what the fuck "truly independent" means) - then grab some numbers. Show me an increased rate of minor projects failing around the start or end date of a well-publicized Kickstarter. Or show me a decreased rate of minor projects beginning for the duration of a major project. Or something. Anything.

ok I don't have any hard evidence in this particular market...
but in regular market research you can observe that with more publicized bigger offers, smaller products get eclipsed, particularly when external publicity is viable... I know Kickstarter is not a regular market, but parallels still exist.

About the real purpose of kickstarter.. I thought it was different from the publisher model, where the basis is who will deliver more reliable profits.. but maybe I'm wrong.

I personally have seen a few great projects that have barely made it or failed... currently I'm very sad about Pulse, because I know the team is capable of delivering a great game... but it seems actually original ideas don't sell.

Over four MILLION?! Freaking WOW, that's incredible, well done them, suppose I ought to play the first game if I want to appreciate all the intricacies of the next...

The Crotch:
Oh, fuck! You're in the Mortuary. The skeleton guardians in the bottom. Right. Good luck. I'm assuming you can probably rest on the main floor of the place without much issue.

Sucks that you alerted the Dusties, though. Those skeletons go down nice and easy if nobody wakes them up first.

Dhall dude, if you told them Fell they'd probably attack you too.

Oops. Yeah. Dhall.

It is totally doable, with a bit of fucking around. And hell, you can probably kite on past if you don't mind having a tail of two angry dustment and a bunch of giant skeletons while you're trying to find a portal or something.

Delcast:
I personally have seen a few great projects that have barely made it or failed... currently I'm very sad about Pulse, because I know the team is capable of delivering a great game... but it seems actually original ideas don't sell.

The top three most-funded-game-projects are an Android-based console, an RPG that's not actually a sequel and is in fact set in a different world from the first game entirely, and a completely original RPG. They got (rounded) $8 million, $4 million and $4 million respectively.

Those original ideas sure seemed to sell well.

It's like a massive 90s gaming revival in the 2010s. I've seen every long lost franchise coming back from the grave once more via crowd funding. If anything, I'd say this is showing a pretty stark contrast to the publisher school of thought.

I'm a backer, despite never playing Planescape: Torment or any of the other heavy story-based RPGs of the day.

I am pretty optimistic about it, from everything the developers/writers have said so far, and from this video gushing about Planescape's incredible storytelling:

IanDavis:
statements about being the most funded kickstarter

Um...what about the Ouya? ...didn't that get eight million or so?

I kicked in $80, looks good and exciting Mid Tier Development Projects deserve support... especially with Triple A development being in a bit of trouble these days...

BartyMae:

IanDavis:
statements about being the most funded kickstarter

Um...what about the Ouya? ...didn't that get eight million or so?

Awkwardly written story. Highest-funded game on Kickstarter. The Ouya was well ahead of it, and Veronica Mars is also past it with five days to go.

The Crotch:

BartyMae:

IanDavis:
statements about being the most funded kickstarter

Um...what about the Ouya? ...didn't that get eight million or so?

Awkwardly written story. Highest-funded game on Kickstarter. The Ouya was well ahead of it, and Veronica Mars is also past it with five days to go.

Not to mention the pebble who gathered 10.2 million (A quite silly amount if you ask me)

It took me about 20 seconds to find that information
I really thought that, news sites like this would would have enough people yelling bad journalism, on the slightest error, to take that kind of time for checking errors both facts and language.
Even the source, rock paper shotgun got it right so my guess is that it is purely because of rush on the escapists part.

As others mentioned there are other games who have gathered more money by using other means of crowdfunding.

In short there's no need to sensationalise the amount that they gathered, the fact that they met their goal is enough.

And that alone IS enough of a reason to celebrate, the concept art looks fantastic and there's a good foundation for a story, that alone sold it on me

Well we're certainly going to have many potentially great RPGs in the next year or two. I wish all the best for InXile, Wasteland 2 has looks promising and hopefully Torment will follow suit.

With the exception of uncertain quality, the only downside about Kickstarter is the games take forever to come out. Most games get announced 5-6 months before launch and that's an acceptable period to get your fans excited. Takes too long and the wait might kill the hype.

Surely it's no longer a problem for the Kickstarter developers to try and break-even since they've already been fully funded, therefore they don't have to worry about their games' reception at launch.

In any case, Torments looks so damn good!! I will patiently be waiting.

Colt47:
It's like a massive 90s gaming revival in the 2010s. I've seen every long lost franchise coming back from the grave once more via crowd funding. If anything, I'd say this is showing a pretty stark contrast to the publisher school of thought.

isnt it. we have finally reached a point where instead of the publishers going "customers will now play games with these features" developers and gamers can sidestep them and make the games that have been begging to be made for 15+ years

Well, now I can only hope that they will get to my Stronghold goal!

lacktheknack:

Delcast:
I personally have seen a few great projects that have barely made it or failed... currently I'm very sad about Pulse, because I know the team is capable of delivering a great game... but it seems actually original ideas don't sell.

The top three most-funded-game-projects are an Android-based console, an RPG that's not actually a sequel and is in fact set in a different world from the first game entirely, and a completely original RPG. They got (rounded) $8 million, $4 million and $4 million respectively.

Those original ideas sure seemed to sell well.

lol I love that you had to explain in such depth to prove that it was "not really a sequel, just using a famous name"....
and yeah.. project eternity.. all original... didn't sell it as an old school rpg at all...all the art even looks like Baldur's Gate......
Look I'm not trying to tell you not to be happy about this, just to look out for the situation that very well could be happening. Keeping a leveled head. Even if you don't like them you should be able to see that there is at least a hint of truth in my observations.

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