Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

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Lunncal:

The artists were forced to make that choice because of the ridiculous complaints that were put against their original choice, which was to have the "rape scene" in the demo in the first place. I don't blame the artists for changing their work due to this pressure, in fact I don't even really blame the people that complained, since I'm sure they were only doing what they thought was right. I just think it's sad that an artist should have to censor his own work in this way, and that people still have such a weird double standard when it comes to rape.

Hotline Miami was about a psychopath who spoke to voices in his head and traveled around Miami indiscriminately and brutally murdering dozens, probably hundreds of people. That people can seriously claim that a rape scene takes it "too far" boggles my mind. That people try to justify it, and claim that rape is somehow worse than murder or any other crimes, just worries me.

Weird, I read the article that said the developers didn't intend for people to take the scene the way they did, and as such are changing it so as to better bring out their original intentions. Nobody forced them to make this choice, and they didn't have to censor anything (and according to the article it's still going to be in the full game), and if you seriously think they did, then explain how, because telling a developer how you feel isn't forcing them to change something.

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

Warachia:

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

You mean this one where he talks about killing and death but not murder and trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?

Good job escapists....every time something like that comes up its the same game.....
They changed the scene, because it didnt reflect their original concept, so what.
But even so....in video games you (normally) only murder "bad" people, people who attack you...even in HM1. And in the instances that we dont (Walking Dead, Spec Ops TL) its used to make us feel uncomfortable with our decisions and reflect on the implications of our actions. As this killing someone is justified in terms of morals or story.
Here it just wasnt....it was just too random and without context.
And yes, I know in games like GTA or Saints Row you can run around gunning down civilians, but does that really mean that you wouldnt feel uncomfortable if Rockstar would introduce a rape-minigame you can use to rape other people?
Rape scenes in games can work, if the right context is given and the scene in itself is not just pointless attention grabbing (civilian killing in MW2), pretty much as in every other medium as well.
Also please stop that "censorship" argument....there are always boundaries of artistic freedom...eg. a game about child-pornography or sth. just wouldnt be acceptable whatever the case (maybe in Japan)....

Trilligan:
snip

They where clearly pressured to make the 'choice' to remove the rape scene from the PAX demo, in what way is that not censorship?

Olikar:

Trilligan:
snip

They where clearly pressured to make the 'choice' to remove the rape scene from the PAX demo, in what way is that not censorship?

Pressured by whom?
If customers said they wouldnt buy the game (or sth. like that which I guess happened) how is that censorship? They cant force them to change the game, but they have the right to express their opinion....or should they be forced to support the game?

If this is censorship than MS changing the XBone has also been censorship....

"Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body"

....so no censorship happened. End of censorship argument!

HalloHerrNoob:

Pressured by whom?
If customers said they wouldnt buy the game (or sth. like that which I guess happened) how is that censorship? They cant force them to, but they have the right to express their opinion....or should they be forced to support the game?

"Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body"

....so no censorship happened. I rest my case.

Clearly you don't understand what censorship is, people applying pressure on an artist to remove content from his art due to their own social and political values is censorship. If people had said they simply wouldn't buy the game then that would have been acceptable and wouldn't have been a call for censorship but a market action based on personal taste, but that certainly wasn't the case and certain people very clearly asked the developers to remove content because it offended them, which is censorship.

HalloHerrNoob:
And yes, I know in games like GTA or Saints Row you can run around gunning down civilians, but does that really mean that you wouldnt feel uncomfortable if Rockstar would introduce a rape-minigame you can use to rape other people?

No more uncomfortable than I would gunning down civilians.

HalloHerrNoob:

determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling bodyother controlling body"

Hmmm... controlling body seems a bit vague. I mean who would the controlling body of an Independent Game Developer who is trying to make something that will sell be? The developers themselves? or the consumers they're targeting?

Olikar:

Clearly you don't understand what censorship is, people applying pressure on an artist to remove content from his art due to their own social and political values is censorship. If people had said they simply wouldn't buy the game then that would have been acceptable and wouldn't have been a call for censorship but a market action based on personal taste, but that certainly wasn't the case and certain people very clearly asked the developers to remove content because it offended them, which is censorship.

Eh.....no.
They asked the developer, but in what way did they pressured them?
The only way they had (and I guess most didnt even go so far) was to say that they wouldnt buy the game....and this is NO CENSORSHIP! I can go to some painter and tell him I hate his pictures and Ill never buy them, if he wont change them....thats no censorship, just my opinion! Also please read up the definition...censorship has to be applied by force and against the will of the artist.
Sorry, but youre just wrong.
What would be the alternative? That I am forced to buy the game? That I cant say that the scene makes me uncomfortable? That I cant say I dont like the game like this?
Cause that would be censorship!

Edit: Controlling body is always someone with the power to control sth, eg. to change it even without the artists consens. So its not vague at all.....sorry guys, but if this is good or bad, its definetly not censorship!

HalloHerrNoob:

Edit: Controlling body is always someone with the power to control sth, eg. to change it even without the artists consens. So its not vague at all.....

You keep saying "sth" What do you mean by that.

Power to Control is still vague. The consumer has power to control as evidenced here.

wulf3n:

HalloHerrNoob:

Edit: Controlling body is always someone with the power to control sth, eg. to change it even without the artists consens. So its not vague at all.....

You keep saying "sth" What do you mean by that.

Power to Control is still vague. The consumer has power to control as evidenced here.

Are you kidding me? You mean the consumer cant say that he doesnt like a certain part of a game or he censores the artist? Are you insane?
What kind of crazy world would that be, where I am forced to like something?

If I dont buy a game, cause I dont like sth. in it its not censorship and of course I have the right to state that in advance!

If I force the developer to change it or I will see to it that the game is never released that is censorship.

HalloHerrNoob:

They asked the developer, but in what way did they pressured them?

Painting the devs as people who 'profit from rape' thus attempting to make the devs appear immoral to the rest of society is very clearly a form of social pressure.

I can go to some painter and tell them I hate his pictures and Ill never buy them, if he wont change them....thats no censorship, just my opinion!

Again I said it's fine to exercise your power as a consumer but that's not what most of the 'criticism' against this scene was.

The only other alternative is to convince the artist that he should change it....but that would be even less censorship. So no, youre just wrong here!

If you convinced an artist to change his work (because it offended you based on political or social ideals)by applying social pressure then yes that is censorship.

HalloHerrNoob:

Are you kidding me?

Nope, I'm just looking at the definition and possible interpretations.

HalloHerrNoob:

You mean the consumer cant say that he doesnt like a certain part of a game or he censores the artist?

An interesting dilemma isn't it. Though it's another one of those situations where one person isn't, but many in unison are.

HalloHerrNoob:

Are you insane?

Probably.

HalloHerrNoob:

What kind of crazy world would that be,

A slightly different kind of crazy to the one we have now?

HalloHerrNoob:

where I am forced to buy stuff or I censor someone?

There's a key distinction your missing here. It's not about buying everything or your censoring, it's about telling people you won't buy unless they change. There's a veiled ultimatum in there.

While effectively the same, as in they both result in you not buying, however one gives the creator a perception that you may buy it if they alter their work.

Fappy:
It was kind of dumb of them to include it without the proper context in the demo, but this is probably the best move they could make. Take it out of the demo to avoid controversy, but include it in the full game (with the context of the scene intact). Hopefully people will keep their torches and pitchforks at home until we understand the purpose of the scene.

This!
after the upheaval it caused in Tomb Raider, this was to be expected.

Avoiding strong topic in general isn`t the way to go, though.
If it's plausible within the story arc and trivialized for the kicks devs have every right to include it in their games.

As long as rape victims are going to jail and not the rapist, there is a lot more need to talk,
dance, paint, sing, perform, screen and express about.

wulf3n:

Warachia:

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

You mean this one where he talks about killing and death but not murder and trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?

Firstly, "trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?" No, he doesn't, he explains why one is worse than the other, secondly, they're dead, they don't have a plight against it, thirdly, he definitely talks about murder, if one human kills another, it's murder, plain and simple, there's varying degrees and justifications, but that doesn't change it from being murder.

Warachia:

Lunncal:
-snip-

Weird, I read the article that said the developers didn't intend for people to take the scene the way they did, and as such are changing it so as to better bring out their original intentions. Nobody forced them to make this choice, and they didn't have to censor anything (and according to the article it's still going to be in the full game), and if you seriously think they did, then explain how, because telling a developer how you feel isn't forcing them to change something.

The developers created the scene and added it to their game (and demo). Lots of people immediately decided the scene was offensive, taking it completely the wrong way (in a way the developers didn't intend), and complained about it. The developers then had to remove it, in order to stop people from taking offense. As I explained in the post above, I have nothing against the artists making that choice, but I don't think it was a choice they should have had to make in the first place. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have used the word "forced" like that. They could have just left it there and endured the complaints and offense caused, I suppose. That doesn't change my opinion that the complaints and offense were completely unwarranted and kind of disturbing though.

The issue I have is that people were so unnecessarily affected by it in the first place. This is a game about a psychotic murderer doing horrible things (assuming it's anything like its predecessor), if you are the type to be offended then this is not the game for you. A society that claims brutal violence and murder is fine to depict in media but rape is too far is fundamentally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

I've watched it, and it's as inane as all the other similar arguments I've heard on it. I watch and like the Jimquisition show, but that's one viewpoint of his I entirely disagree with. It's essentially a list of reasons why rape is horrible, but of course rape is horrible, it's even horrible in a few ways murder isn't. I could just as easily come up with my own list of (completely meaningless) reasons why murder is worse than rape, though, it doesn't really change anything.

Maiev Shadowsong:
snip

Because murder victims get away with it easy, right? I mean no one takes away their choice, dead people get to do a lot of things after they are murdered, they are still free in comparision to a rape victim. And dont forget the near death experiences, you still get the fear that you can die every day, the fear that someone might not just take your "freedom of choice" but the world with him.

They are both incredibly bad but please, use logic next time.

Warachia:

Firstly, "trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?" No, he doesn't, he explains why one is worse than the other,

How is comparing one persons pain to another and saying ones worse isn't trivializing the issue.

Warachia:

secondly, they're dead, they don't have a plight against it,

If you were to be murdered do you honestly believe you'd be the only person to care?

wulf3n:

Because what people tend to forget is that a single murder has many victims.

The Mother and Father that lose a child.
The person that loses a sibling.
The child that loses a parent.
The person who loses a friend.

Not to forget those that may be unfortunate enough to witness said murder. Seeing someone laying on the ground half their head missing severely traumatizes a lot of people.

Warachia:

thirdly, he definitely talks about murder, if one human kills another, it's murder, plain and simple, there's varying degrees and justifications, but that doesn't change it from being murder.

No Murder requires it to be unlawful. Any act of killing that is lawful is not murder. All killings are bad, but not all are murder.

HalloHerrNoob:

Okay guys....I wont discuss this any further.....I can only guess you are trolling me (in which case good work).

Wow, I try and point out that it's not a black and white issue and get accused of trolling. Classy.

The Plunk:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

because if you are raped then you are still alive, if you are murdered then you are not.

Maiev Shadowsong:
From the rest of the interview, it sounds like they are trying to push things and be controversial, but don't want to go too far into shock horror and make it obvious that it's all they've got. It comes off very, very fake and attention seeking. It reads like a well rehearsed lie that's dripping in insincerity and skeevy charm.

Murder and rape are not the same.

Stop complaining that murder is okay in video games and rape isn't. You will probably never murder someone. You will probably never know a murder victim. You will know a rape survivor. You will probably see multiple rape survivors every day.

For any medium of engagement to handle rape, it needs to be done with extreme care and consideration. It's not a check box, it's not bullet point, it's not a tool, it's not an effect and it's not a scene. It is intensely profound.

No, murder and rape are not the same. Murder is much, much worse. I'd rather be raped a hundred times than murdered once, and I can imagine what it would be like to lose my life, despite what you claim. I'd actually probably rather be raped than have someone steal something valuable, like my car. And trigger warning? An actual fucking trigger warning, are you serious? The only thing that makes rape more serious and makes it need more sensitive treatment it that it scares you more?

Evil Smurf:

The Plunk:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

because if you are raped then you are still alive, if you are murdered then you are not.

So what if someone who played HM where the victim of extreme physical violence (but survived)?

Lunncal:

Warachia:

Lunncal:
-snip-

Weird, I read the article that said the developers didn't intend for people to take the scene the way they did, and as such are changing it so as to better bring out their original intentions. Nobody forced them to make this choice, and they didn't have to censor anything (and according to the article it's still going to be in the full game), and if you seriously think they did, then explain how, because telling a developer how you feel isn't forcing them to change something.

The developers created the scene and added it to their game (and demo). Lots of people immediately decided the scene was offensive, taking it completely the wrong way (in a way the developers didn't intend), and complained about it. The developers then had to remove it, in order to stop people from taking offense. As I explained in the post above, I have nothing against the artists making that choice, but I don't think it was a choice they should have had to make in the first place.

They never had to make that choice at all, they could have ignored the complaints, but because they care about what their game says and they want to bring across the right tone/message they are interested in how people interpret it, and yeah, I know you say the same in the next paragraph that I quote, but you really should stop using sentences like "the developers then had to remove it", instead use something like "the developers then chose to remove it", at least that way you'll still bring across the point that they changed it because of fan feedback.

Let's look at a game I really hate that's been out for a long time called Metroid Other M, just looking at how the game is presented makes it look like a very sexist game because every single time the main character isn't wearing armour the camera always frames her T&A just right so that they can show them off, sometimes both in a single shot, and sometimes they're highlighted with overhead lights, whether or not they intended the game to be sexist isn't an issue, it certainly comes off as sexist, and if it wasn't there original intention then it would have been wise to change how it was presented.

How this relates to Hotline Miami is the main character is presented as going to rape a woman, the director comes on screen and gives directions for how the woman can act to be more helpless, this can give some people the impression that the game condones rape, and since that was absolutely not their original intention, they're wise to remove it until we have the proper context for it.

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have used the word "forced" like that. They could have just left it there and endured the complaints and offense caused, I suppose. That doesn't change my opinion that the complaints and offense were completely unwarranted and kind of disturbing though.

The issue I have is that people were so unnecessarily affected by it in the first place. This is a game about a psychotic murderer doing horrible things (assuming it's anything like its predecessor), if you are the type to be offended then this is not the game for you. A society that claims brutal violence and murder is fine to depict in media but rape is too far is fundamentally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Their issue is if the rape is presented as something the main character does and gets away with without any consequences, if a character raped another, and this was a major plot point (as in people kept coming after you or it had serious consequences) then it would be different, but the demo doesn't show any of that.

Let's look at the first game, you play a psychotic masked murderer, but there's consequences for all of the people you kill, the mafia comes after you, and even buys out the police to come after you, eventually your girlfriend is shot, and so are you, if you completed all of the missions with no negative consequences then people could certainly be upset at it, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them.

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

I've watched it, and it's as inane as all the other similar arguments I've heard on it. I watch and like the Jimquisition show, but that's one viewpoint of his I entirely disagree with. It's essentially a list of reasons why rape is horrible, but of course rape is horrible, it's even horrible in a few ways murder isn't. I could just as easily come up with my own list of (completely meaningless) reasons why murder is worse than rape, though, it doesn't really change anything.

Then you should take it as a chance to see why other people see it as worse than murder, you don't have to agree with him, you just need to understand the opposing viewpoint. Incidentally, I'm not trying to convince you to join me in this argument, just trying to get you to see where some people are coming from.

wulf3n:

How is comparing one persons pain to another and saying ones worse isn't trivializing the issue.

Simple, because he never says that murder isn't so bad, he never says that people shouldn't complain about murder, and he states that both are really horrible, but one (in his opinion) is worse than the other.

Warachia:

secondly, they're dead, they don't have a plight against it,

If you were to be murdered do you honestly believe you'd be the only person to care?

Oh, you meant plight of the victims relatives/friends, you really should have said that, instead of just talking about the victims.
Incidentally, if you were raped, do you think you'd be the only person affected by it?

No Murder requires it to be unlawful. Any act of killing that is lawful is not murder. All killings are bad, but not all are murder.

Whoops, you're right on this one, I was confusing murder with homicide, my bad.

Rutskarn:
Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

That pretty much sums up my opinion on it. It makes perfect sense to me, and I'm usually anti-censorship myself.

But things like rape are things you can survive from, unlike murder, or whatever other things come to your mind. Not to mention, they're extremely traumatic.

Rutskarn:
Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

Nice straw man. Let me try:

"hey this game has fake rape in it, that makes me uncomfortable. Putting in there makes you horrible people and rape supporters. Something something rape culture."

Olikar:

Evil Smurf:

The Plunk:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

because if you are raped then you are still alive, if you are murdered then you are not.

So what if someone who played HM where the victim of extreme physical violence (but survived)?

Then they would play a game where the main characters life goes completely down the toilet due to his horrifically violent actions.

So why not just have a warning before the demo starts and leave it in?

Maiev Shadowsong:

Murder and rape are not the same.

Yeah, murder is a lot worse.

A rape victim, though horribly troubled, still has the opportunity to live a life, and even a happy one. Take it from someone who has someone in their family who is a rape victim. Everything she's experienced for all these years; all the wonders and joy, would have been taken away from her if she were killed instead of raped. And you know what? She was able to experience all that because she learned to deal with it. You can still go to work, you can still be with your friends, family. You can actually get to see your golden years and be with someone you love until the end. You can't learn to deal with being killed, you're ******* dead. You don't get the opportunity to live a life, happy or otherwise. To say being killed is better then being raped are the words of a privileged/sheltered person in a first world country who doesn't know what the actual value of a life is, because they haven't lost enough of them.

You're definitely right, I will never know a murder victim, obviously. However I know several people who have had family members and friends murdered, and I have lost people very close to me to other forms of death. The most important people to me, in fact. Is a complete detachment from reality to even hint that is comparable to abuse; rape or otherwise. I'd rather be raped a thousand times over, if it meant just bringing one of those people back...

If people really are so uncomfortable with rape in games to the point they actually try to make an argument that it's worse then murder, maybe (just maybe) we are trying to detract from the fact that we are indeed making far too many games where we slaughter people for fun.

Father Time:
So why not just have a warning before the demo starts and leave it in?

Because it gives off the wrong message/impression about what's in the game/what the game is about, if it goes against what they want to bring across, then they would be smart to remove it.

Warachia:

Father Time:
So why not just have a warning before the demo starts and leave it in?

Because it gives off the wrong message/impression about what's in the game/what the game is about, if it goes against what they want to bring across, then they would be smart to remove it.

"Warning: contains a brief scene of rape" wouldn't do it?

Warachia:
but one (in his opinion) is worse than the other.

Which is how he trivializes the issue, by comparing non comparable things and decide one is worse than another

Warachia:
Oh, you meant plight of the victims relatives/friends, you really should have said that, instead of just talking about the victims.

They are victims to.

Warachia:
Incidentally, if you were raped, do you think you'd be the only person affected by it?

No, nor am I saying one is worse than another.

Warachia:

They never had to make that choice at all, they could have ignored the complaints, but because they care about what their game says and they want to bring across the right tone/message they are interested in how people interpret it

I don't think it has anything to do with tone, I think they simply didn't want to deal with a shitstorm.

whether or not they intended the game to be sexist isn't an issue

Actually that should be the main issue at hand.

it certainly comes off as sexist

Anything can be sexist if you wish to interpret it that way.

and if it wasn't there original intention then it would have been wise to change how it was presented.

Maybe but if they chose not to change it the claims of sexism wouldn't be given any validity from that.

Their issue is if the rape is presented as something the main character does and gets away with without any consequences,

There are no consequences for that at all because he didn't actually do it, it's fictional in the context of the game.

Let's look at the first game, you play a psychotic masked murderer, but there's consequences for all of the people you kill,

No there are no consequences at all for your murders in the first HM.

the mafia comes after you,

They don't you go after them.

and even buys out the police

I think you're remembering things incorrectly, that doesn't happen.

eventually your girlfriend is shot,and so are you,

But this is not a consequence of the actions of your character. (also depending on how you interpret the game your character isn't even shot)

xPixelatedx:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Murder and rape are not the same.

Yeah, murder is a lot worse.

A rape victim, though horribly troubled, still has the opportunity to live a life, and even a happy one. Take it from someone who has someone in their family who is a rape victim. Everything she's experienced for all these years; all the wonders and joy, would have been taken away from her if she were killed instead of raped. And you know what? She was able to experience all that because she learned to deal with it. You can still go to work, you can still be with your friends, family. You can actually get to see your golden years and be with someone you love until the end. You can't learn to deal with being killed, you're ******* dead. You don't get the opportunity to live a life, happy or otherwise. To say being killed is better then being raped are the words of a privileged/sheltered person in a first world country who doesn't know what the actual value of a life is, because they haven't lost enough of them.

You're definitely right, I will never know a murder victim, obviously. However I know several people who have had family members and friends murdered, and I have lost people very close to me to other forms of death. The most important people to me, in fact. Is a complete detachment from reality to even hint that is comparable to abuse; rape or otherwise. I'd rather be raped a thousand times over, if it meant just bringing one of those people back...

If people really are so uncomfortable with rape in games to the point they actually try to make an argument that it's worse then murder, maybe (just maybe) we are trying to detract from the fact that we are indeed making far too many games where we slaughter people for fun.

You can't speak for everybody though, there are plenty of people who can't get past that kind of experience, and in some peoples minds the murder victim got off easier because they are no longer suffering.

Since we're looking at personal experiences here's one of mine, I had a grandfather who was developing alzheimer's, he was starting to forget minor things when he fell in his backyard, was taken to the hospital, and later died peacefully in his sleep.

His wife was a different story, she had parkinson's, her body slowly wasted away for five years as we tried helping her through it, she got more jittery, she later couldn't walk, eventually she required 24-hour care and we had to move her into a care home, and eventually she asked us to stop coming because she didn't want us to see her like that, she died slowly with fluid filling up her lungs. Personally I would have greatly preferred she die like her husband, because then she wouldn't have had to watch herself waste away like that.

Just because an experience turns out one way for you or for somebody you know doesn't mean that it will turn out the same way for everyone else.

Genocidicles:

The Plunk:

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

It's not even a 'real' rape scene. It's part of a movie in the game for crying out loud.

Whereas the player character can 'really' gun people down, slit their throats, cave their skulls in, jab their eyes out with a broken pool cue or throw boiling water in their faces and watch the skin melt off, and that's all perfectly fine as you said.

Yeah what they should do now is also remove all the bits of gratuitous violence and remake the game into something like Pie Fight Miami. Enough is enough with these mephitic murder simulators infecting the minds of our generation. Stop the hate child!

Warachia:

xPixelatedx:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Murder and rape are not the same.

Yeah, murder is a lot worse.

A rape victim, though horribly troubled, still has the opportunity to live a life, and even a happy one. Take it from someone who has someone in their family who is a rape victim. Everything she's experienced for all these years; all the wonders and joy, would have been taken away from her if she were killed instead of raped. And you know what? She was able to experience all that because she learned to deal with it. You can still go to work, you can still be with your friends, family. You can actually get to see your golden years and be with someone you love until the end. You can't learn to deal with being killed, you're ******* dead. You don't get the opportunity to live a life, happy or otherwise. To say being killed is better then being raped are the words of a privileged/sheltered person in a first world country who doesn't know what the actual value of a life is, because they haven't lost enough of them.

You're definitely right, I will never know a murder victim, obviously. However I know several people who have had family members and friends murdered, and I have lost people very close to me to other forms of death. The most important people to me, in fact. Is a complete detachment from reality to even hint that is comparable to abuse; rape or otherwise. I'd rather be raped a thousand times over, if it meant just bringing one of those people back...

If people really are so uncomfortable with rape in games to the point they actually try to make an argument that it's worse then murder, maybe (just maybe) we are trying to detract from the fact that we are indeed making far too many games where we slaughter people for fun.

You can't speak for everybody though, there are plenty of people who can't get past that kind of experience, and in some peoples minds the murder victim got off easier because they are no longer suffering.

Since we're looking at personal experiences here's one of mine, I had a grandfather who was developing alzheimer's, he was starting to forget minor things when he fell in his backyard, was taken to the hospital, and later died peacefully in his sleep.

His wife was a different story, she had parkinson's, her body slowly wasted away for five years as we tried helping her through it, she got more jittery, she later couldn't walk, eventually she required 24-hour care and we had to move her into a care home, and eventually she asked us to stop coming because she didn't want us to see her like that, she died slowly with fluid filling up her lungs. Personally I would have greatly preferred she die like her husband, because then she wouldn't have had to watch herself waste away like that.

Just because an experience turns out one way for you or for somebody you know doesn't mean that it will turn out the same way for everyone else.

The thing though is that at least the rape victim still can do that choice if it cant handle life after that and I think anyone should understand why, sometimes its too much since everything can turn into a snowball and get worse. For some it works out and life is worth living and for others it isnt, just like with euthanasia the choice should be available for the victim.

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