Apparently Riot has some problem with women: nasty behind-the-scenes stuff

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It's their company, it's entirely up to them how they run it.

If that leads to a bias in personality for more male-friendly than female-friend, then that's just how it is. It's a private company, beyond the people working there, or looking to work there. It's not really anyone's business.

I don't agree with it, sure, but, I can't see any way it affects me.

captainsavvy:
I just... I don't understand people like this.

I don't understand why it's so hard to just not be an utter cockwomble.
Millions of people manage to be decent human beings every day. Why is it so hard for others? D:

It usually starts with the parents. "Apple doesn't fall far" and all that. While we're constantly finding new examples of societal ills, we should also be examining how and why the family unit itself has managed to get so dysfunctional in the first place. It may sound harsh but the fact of the matter is there are far too many people out there who probably shouldn't have been allowed to procreate.

But then again, that also folds into how screwed up our intangible values as a whole are to begin with on everything from culture to economics to politics, so it's a bit of a catch-22.

Commanderfantasy:
I'd also like to pose the question, If Riot game's culture is that of a boys club then why should it have to change because the women want it too?

I'm sure the hiring contract never said something like "we are a meritocracy, where the main merit is how much of a fratboy you are (sorry, ladies!)". There is also the problem that running a company like a boy's clubhouse can get at odds with Labor Laws.

Commanderfantasy:
When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes douches?

There, I fixed it for you.

The Lunatic:

I don't agree with it, sure, but, I can't see any way it affects me.

That's because this isn't about you. Serious question. Do you take that mindset with everything?

Commanderfantasy:
I'd also like to pose the question, If Riot game's culture is that of a boys club then why should it have to change because the women want it too?

If you took out the dick pics (if that is actually happening), and just looked at the fratty behavior then what's the problem with that if the company is okay with it?

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

Look I don't condone any harassment of anyone that is unwilling. Especially sexual harassment. But if it's a bunch of guys just fucking with each other, and the women don't want any part of it....just leave? Why hang out for six months?

The initial behavior Meagan speaks about in her article of dudes calling each other "F*gg*t, p*s*y, c-sucker, and so on" is just shit the dudes do and speaks to the frat party she was warned about before joining Riot. So okay you have a problem with the common language between guys, and clearly the common culture in the office. Why stick around? Why join a frat party environment in the first place if you knew you weren't capable of tolerating it?

The next few paragraphs are the unavoidable "why can't there be more ugly/monster women instead of just supermodels" question. Which in a game that revolves around making an income on skins and cosmetics, is always the question that comes up. Like attractive characters in a game are always the go-to for sexism arguments. But again....boys club, and the boys club wants to create attractive female characters. They don't have to make monsters or alt-bodytypes if they don't want too, yet it is always brought up as a negative. Character designs are their decision and they make what they want, don't like it? Why are you working there then?

Finally she talks about the rape jokes and how the male employees seemed to always go out to strip clubs. Okay the rape jokes are not cool so I'm on board with that. But she mentions that the rape jokes she overhears are mostly directed at other "bros" and not women so it reads like she is projecting her feeling at the targets of the jokes rather than how people joking with each other actually feel about it. As for going to strip clubs...so what? IF that where they want to go in their off-hours, why is it any of her fucking business?

She then quits over not being able to roommate with another female employee at a convention, which is understandable. They probably should have roomed her with someone else. But this is a person who didn't get along with the environment from day 1, and she was warned about it ahead of them and ignored that. Why stay for so long?

From early on, she complained about how the characters in the game seemed sexist, that the men in the office were horrible people, and yet she not only idolized LEague of Legends (remember the game with all the sexist characters) enough to want to work for Riot despite being warned of the fratty nature of the company, but she also stuck around for MONTHS.

Some of the things like the guy who supposedly DM'ed another co-worker's girlfriend, and the reported dick pics, just feels like exhaggerations to me. This person didn't experience this first hand and doesn't really know the truth nor the context of any of these "supposed" things. If these things truly happened, then how has Riot not been sued for this yet?

No place of employment should be like that, and places like that do need to change.

I worked offshore for a number of years going on different vessels, and I was told that some places could be a bit rougher than others, some which basically did not allow females to work on because of the culture of the crew members that worked on there. I worked on some of those places and while it wasn't hell on earth, it certainly had problems that shouldn't be acceptable, and the excuse "That's just the offshore environment" is BS. One boat I worked on had most of the crew talking about their sex lives and I worked next to some of the crew, where they had stacks of playboy to look at during the shift. There was a point where they were talking about their past sex encounters and they decided to ask me about mine. Now I could've lied and made something up, but that would've backed fired most likely so I was honest and said I never had sex before. Que weeks and rotations where everyday someone would chastise me for my virginity. I never fought back and let the comments slide, because if I did it would only fuel it but it still went on for months.

I consider myself to have a thick skin, but when you get the same comments lobed at you day after day, it is taxing and you wish it could be changed. Now you can claim that it's my fault or I should just leave and find a different boat to work on, but complainers will be noted and finding a new place over time to work can be harder. Also, things were slowing down and I was on one of the only long term projects going on, so the financial need outweighed that. With these articles, sounds like things were even worse, and despite the fact this was a dream job for people, the culture kept people from wanting to stay. A culture like this will weed out people and the excuse of "That's just how it is" will not allow change.

Commanderfantasy:

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

Because being a "dude" just seems to be codeword for acting like an unprofessional prick and then having a victim complex when you get called out on it nowadays. Let's dispel the narrative that this is just a bunch of boys having fun and a mean old girl is raining on their parade. I'm a guy and I fucking hate this kind of environment, because ironically not all guys are the type who like being in environments where homophobic, racist and sexist terms are spewed about, and implying so is more or less saying guys are all the same. We aren't.

Honestly, anyone who acts like that on the goddamn job deserves nothing less than a boot out the door.

And the few things you can't neatly wave away as unprofessional behavior that we shouldn't be harsh on (for some reason) you just deny. And you keep asking why she stayed so long. Because she moved to get a good job, people tend to try to tough out situations like that when their livelihoods are on the line.

Super Cyborg:

I consider myself to have a thick skin, but when you get the same comments lobed at you day after day, it is taxing and you wish it could be changed. Now you can claim that it's my fault or I should just leave and find a different boat to work on, but complainers will be noted and finding a new place over time to work can be harder. Also, things were slowing down and I was on one of the only long term projects going on, so the financial need outweighed that. With these articles, sounds like things were even worse, and despite the fact this was a dream job for people, the culture kept people from wanting to stay. A culture like this will weed out people and the excuse of "That's just how it is" will not allow change.

Right but those comments where never lobed at her. She very clearly states and it was the guys just insulting their other guy friends, never her. She wasn't a part of it, therefore why should she have a problem with it? And further, if just being around it bothered her, why stick with it for so long?

The culture is the culture and it weeds out the people that can't get along with it. That is perfectly fine. People who mix well with the culture tend to mesh well and projects get done in a more timely and better fashion. If the culture doesn't agree with you, then you are never going to get along and not only that, but the culture is never going to change to fit you.

Like I said, if the company is fine with this culture, then it is their right to let it be. Employees that cannot mesh with it, will not stick around. The company itself shouldn't have to change become some people can't handle it.

If your boss is a dick, (but not breaking any rules), you can't complain that your boss needs to change. You either deal with him or you leave. That's it. In the case of Riot's frat-boys, they are not breaking the company's rules therefore you need to learn to deal with it, or leave. It's plain and simple.

Commanderfantasy:

Super Cyborg:

I consider myself to have a thick skin, but when you get the same comments lobed at you day after day, it is taxing and you wish it could be changed. Now you can claim that it's my fault or I should just leave and find a different boat to work on, but complainers will be noted and finding a new place over time to work can be harder. Also, things were slowing down and I was on one of the only long term projects going on, so the financial need outweighed that. With these articles, sounds like things were even worse, and despite the fact this was a dream job for people, the culture kept people from wanting to stay. A culture like this will weed out people and the excuse of "That's just how it is" will not allow change.

Right but those comments where never lobed at her. She very clearly states and it was the guys just insulting their other guy friends, never her. She wasn't a part of it, therefore why should she have a problem with it? And further, if just being around it bothered her, why stick with it for so long?

The culture is the culture and it weeds out the people that can't get along with it. That is perfectly fine. People who mix well with the culture tend to mesh well and projects get done in a more timely and better fashion. If the culture doesn't agree with you, then you are never going to get along and not only that, but the culture is never going to change to fit you.

Like I said, if the company is fine with this culture, then it is their right to let it be. Employees that cannot mesh with it, will not stick around. The company itself shouldn't have to change become some people can't handle it.

If your boss is a dick, (but not breaking any rules), you can't complain that your boss needs to change. You either deal with him or you leave. That's it. In the case of Riot's frat-boys, they are not breaking the company's rules therefore you need to learn to deal with it, or leave. It's plain and simple.

Because it's an unprofessional work environment, that's why. And can you please stop getting hung up on the fact that she didn't drop the job right away? It doesn't actually matter...oh I get it. I get why you keep pushing that angle. You're trying to imply that nothing that they did was wrong and that she should've just quit if the job wasn't a good fit for her. Here's a thought. Maybe the guys she's talking about can act more mature than 16 year olds playing counter-strike.

So what I'm getting from this is that you think it's ok to promote a work environment where homophobic, racist and sexist terms are thrown around, and anyone who can't handle it should just get out.

...Wild stab in the dark, I'm gonna guess you're a white, heterosexual male?

Commanderfantasy:

Super Cyborg:

I consider myself to have a thick skin, but when you get the same comments lobed at you day after day, it is taxing and you wish it could be changed. Now you can claim that it's my fault or I should just leave and find a different boat to work on, but complainers will be noted and finding a new place over time to work can be harder. Also, things were slowing down and I was on one of the only long term projects going on, so the financial need outweighed that. With these articles, sounds like things were even worse, and despite the fact this was a dream job for people, the culture kept people from wanting to stay. A culture like this will weed out people and the excuse of "That's just how it is" will not allow change.

Right but those comments where never lobed at her. She very clearly states and it was the guys just insulting their other guy friends, never her. She wasn't a part of it, therefore why should she have a problem with it? And further, if just being around it bothered her, why stick with it for so long?

The culture is the culture and it weeds out the people that can't get along with it. That is perfectly fine. People who mix well with the culture tend to mesh well and projects get done in a more timely and better fashion. If the culture doesn't agree with you, then you are never going to get along and not only that, but the culture is never going to change to fit you.

Like I said, if the company is fine with this culture, then it is their right to let it be. Employees that cannot mesh with it, will not stick around. The company itself shouldn't have to change become some people can't handle it.

If your boss is a dick, (but not breaking any rules), you can't complain that your boss needs to change. You either deal with him or you leave. That's it. In the case of Riot's frat-boys, they are not breaking the company's rules therefore you need to learn to deal with it, or leave. It's plain and simple.

Except there were comments lobbed at her that were uncalled for. People asking her when she lost her virginity being one, and even if not directed at you it can be uncomfortable being around when those things are being said. I remember on the boat guys talking about competitions to see who would have sex with the ugliest person. While not taking part in it, since it was on shift and I couldn't just leave it was very uncomfortable to listen to. As for not leaving, it can be part financial and part there are parts you like as well. I hated the culture but loves being offshore, and with how well I was being paid it was something I decided to tough out on, though it should not be the case.

The culture should not weed people out inso far as how people behave. You should be respectful and professional no matter the job. However, workload and type of work is different. If she couldn't handle the workload or something that comes with the job that can't be controlled, then that's fair. I worked as a lifeguard and if I couldn't handle the heat of the summer than that means it was a job not meant for me. A company being fine with the culture is not acceptable, and it's always in their best interest to improve things. As mentioned, it made other people uncomfortable, as well as the fact that it was stated there were plenty of other people that were professional and pleasant to work with. When you have a more welcoming environment for everyone, it usually helps productivity and can keep people motivated.

Commanderfantasy:

If your boss is a dick, (but not breaking any rules), you can't complain that your boss needs to change. You either deal with him or you leave. That's it. In the case of Riot's frat-boys, they are not breaking the company's rules therefore you need to learn to deal with it, or leave. It's plain and simple.

So if company rules say the workers should be locked up on the office without fire exits, they need to learn to deal with it or leave? Company's rules aren't the final arbiter. Riot's offices aren't in a completely libertarian nation. Maybe Riot games should learn to deal with Labor Laws or leave.

hanselthecaretaker:

captainsavvy:
I just... I don't understand people like this.

I don't understand why it's so hard to just not be an utter cockwomble.
Millions of people manage to be decent human beings every day. Why is it so hard for others? D:

It usually starts with the parents. ?Apple doesn?t fall far? and all that. While we?re constantly finding new examples of societal ills, we should also be examining how and why the family unit itself has managed to get so dysfunctional in the first place. It may sound harsh but the fact of the matter is there are far too many people out there who probably shouldn?t have been allowed to procreate.

But then again, that also folds into how screwed up our intangible values as a whole are to begin with on everything from culture to economics to politics, so it?s a bit of a catch-22.

I think it's more they've had a limited social circle. They've only ever hung out with dudes who laugh at their juvenile jokes, or who've shared a similar mindset or attitude. They've never really had to deal with anyone who might take issue with their behaviour, or if they have its been in a manner where they've been able to brush off or not really face serious consequences for acting like childish jackholes.

erttheking:

...Wild stab in the dark, I'm gonna guess you're a white, heterosexual male?

Gonna take a stab in the dark and say that you are gonna say that make my opinion invalid, because cis white dudes can't have opinions or feelings.

Yeah that's going to have to be a no from me. I'm not gonna let you sit there an attack me due to some club I do or do not belong to based on whatever level of oppression that I apparently do not meet. You are free to not like my opinion and disagree, you are not free to say I'm invalid due to my cis-maleness.

CaitSeith:

So if company rules say the workers should be locked up on the office without fire exits, they need to learn to deal with it or leave? Company's rules aren't the final arbiter. Riot's offices aren't in a completely libertarian nation. Maybe Riot games should learn to deal with Labor Laws or leave.

Nothing here endangers anyone's life. So that's a completely different thing. Being a bunch of jackasses, isn't a safety hazard. If it is as harassing as they claim, then sue Riot. There are government agencies that you can report them too, and trigger investigation without out-of-pocket expense to yourself. If they are that bad, send in the people who can shut it down. Or maybe they are just making shit up or possibly exaggerating. But I guess reporting them to a federal or state employment agency means they wouldn't be able to cry about it in a blog.

Super Cyborg:
Except there were comments lobbed at her that were uncalled for. People asking her when she lost her virginity being one, and even if not directed at you it can be uncomfortable being around when those things are being said. I remember on the boat guys talking about competitions to see who would have sex with the ugliest person. While not taking part in it, since it was on shift and I couldn't just leave it was very uncomfortable to listen to. As for not leaving, it can be part financial and part there are parts you like as well. I hated the culture but loves being offshore, and with how well I was being paid it was something I decided to tough out on, though it should not be the case.

Agreed. Absolutely. I said in my post that the sexual harassment is a definite no-go. I'm defending the dudes talking shit to each other, and going to the strip club after work, NOT the dick picks or the sexual harassment.

Commanderfantasy:
Snip

Your opinion isn't invalid because you're a cis-het white male, but I can't help but notice it shows a shocking amount of apathy for people who don't feel right at home in environments where racist, sexist, and homophobic slurs are idly flung around. And something I notice a lot about these kinds of situations is that the people who so often downplay or ignore the issues women, PoC and LGBT people have to go through are the kind of people who never had to go through this kind of shit, so I find it rather telling. It's kind of like what Lunatic said at the top of this page, with him not seeing what the problem is because it didn't affect him personally. It's that mindset that made me ask that question, wondering if I was seeing a case of second verse same as the first.

erttheking:

Commanderfantasy:
Snip

Your opinion isn't invalid because you're a cis-het white male, but I can't help but notice it shows a shocking amount of apathy for people who don't feel right at home in environments where racist, sexist, and homophobic slurs are idly flung around. And something I notice a lot about these kinds of situations is that the people who so often downplay or ignore the issues women, PoC and LGBT people have to go through are the kind of people who never had to go through this kind of shit, so I find it rather telling. It's kind of like what Lunatic said at the top of this page, with him not seeing what the problem is because it didn't affect him personally. It's that mindset that made me ask that question, wondering if I was seeing a case of second verse same as the first.

Sounds like more of this war on words we are having these days. Where jokes are not allowed because people will always be offended regardless of intent. There have been comedians who have been forced to defend themselves for jokes or all kinds, sexist, racist, etc etc etc.

Razzing your friends by calling them names does NOT have the same intent an malice as directly calling someone out insultingly. But because people are SOOOOOO eager to be offended, any utterance of anything they can deem offensive they'll surely blog about it and play the victim when in reality they should have just minded their own fucking business.

We live in a society now where I have to actually be careful how I joke with my friends when we are out to dinner, or out playing cards or whatever, because if some passerby takes offense they can then start a witch hunt to try an ruin my life. Outrage and offense rules, and frankly it's not only ridiculous, it's disgusting. Especially when people are so afraid of being called out, that they will believe someone before any proof is presented.

You take these article's claim of dick pics being sent unsolicited around the office, but where is the evidence? Why would you not copy that e-mail and either print it or save it in some way to take it to someone in charge? Or show it to news outlets? Anyone can say they got harassed, and people can lose their jobs with no proof being presented by anyone.

This exact shit happened to Aziz Ansari, who had a bad date with a bad sexual encounter that was completely consentual, but because she regretted or didn't enjoy it later she decides to call him a rapist and starts a bunch of aligations that TARNISHED him even after the truth of her lies came out.

You telling me that you just believe it all at face value? Does nothing about that seem wrong to you?

Commanderfantasy:

erttheking:

...Wild stab in the dark, I'm gonna guess you're a white, heterosexual male?

Gonna take a stab in the dark and say that you are gonna say that make my opinion invalid, because cis white dudes can't have opinions or feelings.

image

Been there. Seen that. Move along.

Commanderfantasy:

erttheking:

Commanderfantasy:
Snip

Your opinion isn't invalid because you're a cis-het white male, but I can't help but notice it shows a shocking amount of apathy for people who don't feel right at home in environments where racist, sexist, and homophobic slurs are idly flung around. And something I notice a lot about these kinds of situations is that the people who so often downplay or ignore the issues women, PoC and LGBT people have to go through are the kind of people who never had to go through this kind of shit, so I find it rather telling. It's kind of like what Lunatic said at the top of this page, with him not seeing what the problem is because it didn't affect him personally. It's that mindset that made me ask that question, wondering if I was seeing a case of second verse same as the first.

Sounds like more of this war on words we are having these days. Where jokes are not allowed because people will always be offended regardless of intent. There have been comedians who have been forced to defend themselves for jokes or all kinds, sexist, racist, etc etc etc.

Razzing your friends by calling them names does NOT have the same intent an malice as directly calling someone out insultingly. But because people are SOOOOOO eager to be offended, any utterance of anything they can deem offensive they'll surely blog about it and play the victim when in reality they should have just minded their own fucking business.

We live in a society now where I have to actually be careful how I joke with my friends when we are out to dinner, or out playing cards or whatever, because if some passerby takes offense they can then start a witch hunt to try an ruin my life. Outrage and offense rules, and frankly it's not only ridiculous, it's disgusting. Especially when people are so afraid of being called out, that they will believe someone before any proof is presented.

You take these article's claim of dick pics being sent unsolicited around the office, but where is the evidence? Why would you not copy that e-mail and either print it or save it in some way to take it to someone in charge? Or show it to news outlets? Anyone can say they got harassed, and people can lose their jobs with no proof being presented by anyone.

This exact shit happened to Aziz Ansari, who had a bad date with a bad sexual encounter that was completely consentual, but because she regretted or didn't enjoy it later she decides to call him a rapist and starts a bunch of aligations that TARNISHED him even after the truth of her lies came out.

You telling me that you just believe it all at face value? Does nothing about that seem wrong to you?

What jokes? People were dropping n-bombs and calling people homophobic slurs. No jokes were being made. Please focus on what actually happened and don't just make unrelated arguments.

They are on the job. I don't know why you're upset that apparently you can't drop an n-bomb on the job without someone getting offended, but welcome to post 1960s, it's been that way for awhile, because intent really doesn't matter with some words. What people say in earshot of you on the job is your business. I had to deal with an unbearable prick of a co-worker who was constantly dropping that shit around me, TO me, and it was my fucking business when he did it. You can wave your ass around at work and then get offended when people don't like it.

Frankly I find it disgusting that people assume every last woman who comes forward about sexual harassment will be accused as a lying harlot simply because, but that's just me. And please tell me whose life was ruined because they said something when they were out having dinner with friends and a total stranger overheard them? Go ahead, list them. The list won't be very long though, assuming it even exists.

I'm telling you to take it seriously and not just ignore if because it presents an uncomfortable reality about the way some men treat women in a male dominated environment. Considering the number of stories that pop up about how women are treated in the tech environment, I have a sneaking feeling they're not all liars. And she didn't present the proof because she's sharing her experience, not trying to get them convicted. Somehow I doubt she hung onto the dick pics for months to use as evidence because she's not a police officer.

All this is irrelevant though because you're taking the stance of "oh she's trying to ruin people's lives" and "women can ruin men's lives!" when she named NO ONE!

I'm just saying, if you think the biggest problem with society is that you can't throw around n-bombs on the job, I think we're doing all right as a society.

Commanderfantasy:
I'd also like to pose the question, If Riot game's culture is that of a boys club then why should it have to change because the women want it too?

If you took out the dick pics (if that is actually happening), and just looked at the fratty behavior then what's the problem with that if the company is okay with it?

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

Look I don't condone any harassment of anyone that is unwilling. Especially sexual harassment. But if it's a bunch of guys just fucking with each other, and the women don't want any part of it....just leave? Why hang out for six months?

The initial behavior Meagan speaks about in her article of dudes calling each other "F*gg*t, p*s*y, c-sucker, and so on" is just shit the dudes do and speaks to the frat party she was warned about before joining Riot. So okay you have a problem with the common language between guys, and clearly the common culture in the office. Why stick around? Why join a frat party environment in the first place if you knew you weren't capable of tolerating it?

The next few paragraphs are the unavoidable "why can't there be more ugly/monster women instead of just supermodels" question. Which in a game that revolves around making an income on skins and cosmetics, is always the question that comes up. Like attractive characters in a game are always the go-to for sexism arguments. But again....boys club, and the boys club wants to create attractive female characters. They don't have to make monsters or alt-bodytypes if they don't want too, yet it is always brought up as a negative. Character designs are their decision and they make what they want, don't like it? Why are you working there then?

Finally she talks about the rape jokes and how the male employees seemed to always go out to strip clubs. Okay the rape jokes are not cool so I'm on board with that. But she mentions that the rape jokes she overhears are mostly directed at other "bros" and not women so it reads like she is projecting her feeling at the targets of the jokes rather than how people joking with each other actually feel about it. As for going to strip clubs...so what? IF that where they want to go in their off-hours, why is it any of her fucking business?

She then quits over not being able to roommate with another female employee at a convention, which is understandable. They probably should have roomed her with someone else. But this is a person who didn't get along with the environment from day 1, and she was warned about it ahead of them and ignored that. Why stay for so long?

From early on, she complained about how the characters in the game seemed sexist, that the men in the office were horrible people, and yet she not only idolized LEague of Legends (remember the game with all the sexist characters) enough to want to work for Riot despite being warned of the fratty nature of the company, but she also stuck around for MONTHS.

Some of the things like the guy who supposedly DM'ed another co-worker's girlfriend, and the reported dick pics, just feels like exhaggerations to me. This person didn't experience this first hand and doesn't really know the truth nor the context of any of these "supposed" things. If these things truly happened, then how has Riot not been sued for this yet?

1) Not just " women" find this a hostile work environment, many men do as well. It is creating a hostile work environment for both men and women here.

2)They should be forced to change because people do not work for "recreational purposes" they work to survive. If they do not work, they cannot survive and lose access to the basic necessities needed for survival such as shelter, food and security. To ensure that people have equal access to basic survival, they need to be granted equal access to employment. By not having equal access to employment, you are also removing one's ability to have equal access to survival. This is why we have laws against discrimination in employment.

3)If it were not for forcing industries to change to combat discrimination, women and other minorities would not even be allowed to become Physicians, engineers, programmers at all because these industries did not change easily, they were forced to change in order to advance society itself.

4) People tolerate hostile work environments because they need a job to survive and in a competitive industry such as this, it isn't like they always have abundant opportunities to switch jobs. In many situations it is a matter of "suffer a hostile work environment" or become homeless and not be able to feed your family. That does not leave much room for choice here when you are talking about employment.

5)"Dick pics" are still sadly a very common issue in a number of work environments, not just gaming and the reason why they have not been "sued" is when one does draw attention to these things happening, they then have difficulty finding employment elsewhere at all due to the " boys club" mentality also being the cause of other employers not being willing to hire anyone who "draws attention to hostile work environments" in the first place. You see, when you report something like this, you can be black balled by future employers not being willing to hire you because they then think you could sue them/ complain about them as well. Speaking up about anything is extremely risky to your career and maintaining one's ability to survive at all. The understanding that you will not be able to survive is why people just put up with these things and not speak up in the first place as that is not something anyone should take lightly.

Besides, someone has to be the " first person" to gather the courage to speak up. When they are the first person to speak up, there isn't going to be " people who sued them for this" prior to them, that is what makes this all that more risky to the person willing to be the first to do so.

Lil devils x:

1) Not just " women" find this a hostile work environment, many men do as well. It is creating a hostile work environment for both men and women here.

This always gets glazed over doesn't it? People like me who just don't want n-bombs or homophobic slurs being dropped idly in the work place don't exist, it's just women ruining all the men's fun.

erttheking:

Lil devils x:

1) Not just " women" find this a hostile work environment, many men do as well. It is creating a hostile work environment for both men and women here.

This always gets glazed over doesn't it? People like me who just don't want n-bombs or homophobic slurs being dropped idly in the work place don't exist, it's just women ruining all the men's fun.

It is just an attempt to create an " us vs them" mindset when that is far from being reality here. Why would anyone male or female be forced to "put up with" that sort of Disgusting behavior simply because they want a job to keep a roof over their heads and to feed themselves and their family? They should not be forced to put up with it simply because some jerk wants to use their position to abuse their coworkers or employees.

Commanderfantasy:
Agreed. Absolutely. I said in my post that the sexual harassment is a definite no-go. I'm defending the dudes talking shit to each other, and going to the strip club after work, NOT the dick picks or the sexual harassment.

The problem however is that common used jokes and insults can show an underlying problem of a person. Going to get very personal here and use myself as an example. I was very homophobic, but not outspoken where I was constantly talking about not allowing gay marriage or calling LGBT people slurs, but I had that mindset (One of my first comments on this forum shows it). I could claim that I could work with an LGBT person just fine and disagree with their "Life Style", but that wouldn't be completely true. I worked with some people who I knew were Gay, and while on the outside I'm certain I treated them fine (no guarantee's there weren't small cues I made to show some form of disapproval), underneath there were small things that made me act towards them differently. I wouldn't consider their point of view as much, I would interact with them less, and other things of that nature. On the outside people could claim I was professional towards everyone, but I know myself that I was not fair towards everyone and I am still working on that today, since 25 years of my life I had some pretty bad biases that still can come back up from time to time.

So now we have this work environment which people say some pretty derogitory terms outloud for all to hear. If they are so comfortable saying that outloud, and the higher ups are fine with that, it shows a lot of underlying problems. Going to the part where they were fine talking a lot about what they thought of the various cosplayers and talking about who was the hottest, that says a lot. Commenting about if you find someone cute and moving on isn't a problem in itself, but when that's something of a passtime which you do on the job or at least when at an event which you represent yout company, that shows that you can't look to see the people. Going back to my story, even not being loud about it I couldn't avoid myself labeling those coworkers as "The Gay Ones", which basically stripped them down of their personality into a thing. So with so much focus on the looks and commenting on that, I'm pretty certain those people look at woman as just objects, into categories of just "I'd do that" or "No Way". That then translated into if you don't fit into a certain criteria, your feelings and input mean jack squat. One bad apple can already ruin something, but a bunch will apmlify that effect, which the two articles linked here already show.

So trying to put all of this in perspective and make sense, while perhaps certain behaviors can seem harmless, the combination of them and how they are used shows something far worse. People that worked there, both men and women, had things happen to them that caused discomfort, and eventually made them leave. Just because a culture was like that before doesn't mean things should not change. Progress in society is always happening, and saying a company shouldn't progress its culture is pretty silly. Riot and these employees need to see how these behaviors effect how they interact with other groups of people and need to do deep personal reflection and take action to change that.

erttheking:

Commanderfantasy:

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

having a victim complex

Women complain about everything INCLUDING THE DAMN AIR CONDITIONING BEING OPPRESSIVE but they don't have a victim complex. Men complain about anything and they have a victim complex.

https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+oppressive&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

Commanderfantasy:
I'd also like to pose the question, If Riot game's culture is that of a boys club then why should it have to change because the women want it too?

- because it is unprofessional
- because they still hire and employ people to whom this environment is extremely hostile

Now, this "should" does not mean that the state should regulate company climate. But it is somthing where social pressure for change would be welcome like with many other bad practices.

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

It is very much ok to be a bunch of dudes. Because a regular bunch of dudes doesn't behave this way. It is not normal or manly or typical or whatever. It is just shitty behavior by a bunch of people. That those happen to be male and thus aim their harassment at non-males is more a coincidence.

So okay you have a problem with the common language between guys, and clearly the common culture in the office.

That is not common language between guys. Don't treat is as something normal. It isn't.

Finally she talks about the rape jokes and how the male employees seemed to always go out to strip clubs. Okay the rape jokes are not cool so I'm on board with that. But she mentions that the rape jokes she overhears are mostly directed at other "bros" and not women so it reads like she is projecting her feeling at the targets of the jokes rather than how people joking with each other actually feel about it. As for going to strip clubs...so what? IF that where they want to go in their off-hours, why is it any of her fucking business?

Rape jokes are bad. Hardly matters at whom directed. How the people who joke with each other actually feel about it ? Well, joking about it pretty much tells everyone that they do take rape not particularly serious. Which is not something you want to learn about your coworkers.
Strip clubs ? Yes, shouldn't matter. If they went there as private persons instead of treating it like an afterwork activity to bond with collegues in a relaxed environment.

Lil devils x:
3)If it were not for forcing industries to change to combat discrimination, women and other minorities would not even be allowed to become Physicians, engineers, programmers at all because these industries did not change easily, they were forced to change in order to advance society itself.

That depends very much on the country. In many places those industries did change first with society (slowly) following, not the other way around. Force is actually rarely needed.

5)"Dick pics" are still sadly a very common issue in a number of work environments, not just gaming and the reason why they have not been "sued" is when one does draw attention to these things happening, they then have difficulty finding employment elsewhere at all due to the " boys club" mentality also being the cause of other employers not being willing to hire anyone who "draws attention to hostile work environments" in the first place. You see, when you report something like this, you can be black balled by future employers not being willing to hire you because they then think you could sue them/ complain about them as well. Speaking up about anything is extremely risky to your career and maintaining one's ability to survive at all. The understanding that you will not be able to survive is why people just put up with these things and not speak up in the first place as that is not something anyone should take lightly.

I have read about dick pics often enough to believe that this is a thing, even if i am still very unsure how widespread this actually is.

But the fear of being blackballed by future employers for that kind of stuff is vastly overblown. I worked my whole life in the tech sector, have often been part of interview for new stuff and the following decision making process and not once would that have been an issue. Companies which don't have a crappy workplace environment are rarely afraid of getting sued for workplace issues.
If you do have those problems, do quit the job. Never assume it is everywhere the same, even in your sector. It is not worth to put up with that, and you will be so much happier elsewhere.

There are thousands of tech firms that would gladly take a competent job-seeker. Worldwide there is a need for MINT-professionals. So much so that such a qualification easily gets you a work visum in half the countries of the word. Why stay at a shitty place ?

Yes, i know it is more difficult in "game development", as 90% of all coders like video games and would prefer to work on that over e.g. some boring office tool or whatver. BUt think about if you really want to work on an interesting product in an utterly hostile environtment or on some boring stuff in a welcoming environment paid three times as much.

erttheking:
That?s because this isn?t about you. Serious question. Do you take that mindset with everything?

Who is it about then?

I'm a gay person who has worked in the industry and plays video games. They're using "homophobic slurs" whilst making and playing video games.

Mothro:

erttheking:

Commanderfantasy:

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

having a victim complex

Women complain about everything INCLUDING THE DAMN AIR CONDITIONING BEING OPPRESSIVE but they don't have a victim complex. Men complain about anything and they have a victim complex.

https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+oppressive&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

We didn't just start out where we are at today, you have to consider that "western business standards and culture" were designed around a male workforce. This is not true of all cultures, as when you compare how maternal cultures had their work environments designed around women they are very different, not only physically, but in how the work environment is viewed entirely, what is considered professional behavior and what accommodations are expected to exist. In order to truly have an equal working environment, you would have an environment designed for both male and female needs in every aspect. Due to biological physical difference between males and females, yes even things you do not think about such as air conditioning, chairs, toilets, and counter heights can be designed to accommodate males rather than be considered designed to make both sexes comfortable and should be taken into account.

Something as simple as " air conditioning settings" can actually have a huge impact on one's health.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/out-in-the-cold

The Lunatic:
It's their company, it's entirely up to them how they run it.

If that leads to a bias in personality for more male-friendly than female-friend, then that's just how it is. It's a private company, beyond the people working there, or looking to work there. It's not really anyone's business.

I don't agree with it, sure, but, I can't see any way it affects me.

This is a terrible set of views to have.

Any allowance of abuse in humanity affects everyone else by lowering the bar of decency. It shouldn't have to directly hurt you for you to want it to be better, because when it IS you, you will want others to care.

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

erttheking:

having a victim complex

Women complain about everything INCLUDING THE DAMN AIR CONDITIONING BEING OPPRESSIVE but they don't have a victim complex. Men complain about anything and they have a victim complex.

https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+oppressive&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

We didn't just start out where we are at today, you have to consider that "western business standards and culture" were designed around a male workforce. This is not true of all cultures, as when you compare how maternal cultures had their work environments designed around women they are very different, not only physically, but in how the work environment is viewed entirely, what is considered professional behavior and what accommodations are expected to exist. In order to truly have an equal working environment, you would have an environment designed for both male and female needs in every aspect. Due to biological physical difference between males and females, yes even things you do not think about such as air conditioning, chairs, toilets, and counter heights can be designed to accommodate males rather than be considered designed to make both sexes comfortable and should be taken into account.

So....men who complain about anything have a victim complex while women who complain about everything don't have a victim complex. Sounds like a double standard to me. It's interesting how the people who claim to want equality don't want actual equality. They think we (men, usually white) should be paying off an old debt for an undetermined number of years to come.

Mothro:

erttheking:

Commanderfantasy:

When did it stop being okay to be a bunch of dudes?

having a victim complex

Women complain about everything INCLUDING THE DAMN AIR CONDITIONING BEING OPPRESSIVE but they don't have a victim complex. Men complain about anything and they have a victim complex.

https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+oppressive&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

I'm already replied to you with a post on why I don't take your "what about men" line of reasoning seriously. Reply to that.

The Lunatic:

erttheking:
That?s because this isn?t about you. Serious question. Do you take that mindset with everything?

Who is it about then?

I'm a gay person who has worked in the industry and plays video games. They're using "homophobic slurs" whilst making and playing video games.

The people who feel uncomfortable working in the industry around this? I know this doesn't bother you, but you seem to be an outlier in the LGBT community on that issue.

Mothro:

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

Women complain about everything INCLUDING THE DAMN AIR CONDITIONING BEING OPPRESSIVE but they don't have a victim complex. Men complain about anything and they have a victim complex.

https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+oppressive&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

We didn't just start out where we are at today, you have to consider that "western business standards and culture" were designed around a male workforce. This is not true of all cultures, as when you compare how maternal cultures had their work environments designed around women they are very different, not only physically, but in how the work environment is viewed entirely, what is considered professional behavior and what accommodations are expected to exist. In order to truly have an equal working environment, you would have an environment designed for both male and female needs in every aspect. Due to biological physical difference between males and females, yes even things you do not think about such as air conditioning, chairs, toilets, and counter heights can be designed to accommodate males rather than be considered designed to make both sexes comfortable and should be taken into account.

So....men who complain about anything have a victim complex while women who complain about everything don't have a victim complex. Sounds like a double standard to me. It's interesting how the people who claim to want equality don't want actual equality. They think we (men, usually white) should be paying off an old debt for an undetermined number of years to come.

I did not comment on anyone having "victim complex", so please do not make assumptions on my perspective on that. I do not apply terms such as that to broad categories, but instead I view people as individuals and individual circumstances. I do not see that men are paying off an old debt, instead I am seeing that we are in a period of time where they are progressing towards improving the workplace and are still receiving push back as is expected. There is not or was never about an " old debt" it is about the ever changing current environment as improvements are being implemented.

Saelune:
This is a terrible set of views to have.

Any allowance of abuse in humanity affects everyone else by lowering the bar of decency. It shouldn't have to directly hurt you for you to want it to be better, because when it IS you, you will want others to care.

So, companies should be forced to adopt a culture which is agreeable to specific groups of people?
It's a private company. It's none of my business what they do, and neither is it any of yours. Your own verdict of what's "Better" and what isn't is completely worthless in this situation, it's not your company to control, nor your culture to influence.

erttheking:
The people who feel uncomfortable working in the industry around this? I know this doesn?t bother you, but you seem to be an outlier in the LGBT community on that issue.

I wouldn't feel comfortable working in San Fransico as an LGBT person, where's my outcry?

Does everyone get an outcry? Nobody I know within the LGBT community cares about these kinds of things. I mean, hell, even in my social groups we use "Homophobic slurs" all the time, and we're a mix of homosexuals and straight people. So, who knows, maybe we're all outliers.

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

Lil devils x:

We didn't just start out where we are at today, you have to consider that "western business standards and culture" were designed around a male workforce. This is not true of all cultures, as when you compare how maternal cultures had their work environments designed around women they are very different, not only physically, but in how the work environment is viewed entirely, what is considered professional behavior and what accommodations are expected to exist. In order to truly have an equal working environment, you would have an environment designed for both male and female needs in every aspect. Due to biological physical difference between males and females, yes even things you do not think about such as air conditioning, chairs, toilets, and counter heights can be designed to accommodate males rather than be considered designed to make both sexes comfortable and should be taken into account.

So....men who complain about anything have a victim complex while women who complain about everything don't have a victim complex. Sounds like a double standard to me. It's interesting how the people who claim to want equality don't want actual equality. They think we (men, usually white) should be paying off an old debt for an undetermined number of years to come.

I did not comment on anyone having "victim complex", so please do not make assumptions on my perspective on that. I do not see that men are paying off an old debt, instead I am seeing that we are in a period of time where they are progressing towards improving the workplace and are still receiving push back as is expected. There is not or was never about an " old debt" it is about the ever changing current environment as improvements are being implemented.

You quoted my post about a victim complex but didn't want to actually discuss that? Ok, why don't you want to discuss that?

The Lunatic:

Saelune:
This is a terrible set of views to have.

Any allowance of abuse in humanity affects everyone else by lowering the bar of decency. It shouldn't have to directly hurt you for you to want it to be better, because when it IS you, you will want others to care.

So, companies should be forced to adopt a culture which is agreeable to specific groups of people?
It's a private company. It's none of my business what they do, and neither is it any of yours. Your own verdict of what's "Better" and what isn't is completely worthless in this situation, it's not your company to control, nor your culture to influence.

erttheking:
The people who feel uncomfortable working in the industry around this? I know this doesn?t bother you, but you seem to be an outlier in the LGBT community on that issue.

I wouldn't feel comfortable working in San Fransico as an LGBT person, where's my outcry?

Does everyone get an outcry? Nobody I know within the LGBT community cares about these kinds of things. I mean, hell, even in my social groups we use "Homophobic slurs" all the time, and we're a mix of homosexuals and straight people. So, who knows, maybe we're all outliers.

Are you turning this into a ?I?m not complaining about this so no one should? thing? Don?t do that. I know quite a few LGBT people who would livid over this. The LGBT community in general seems to be against this kinda shit. And if you want an outcry, well, go ahead and make one. Anyone who feels wronged can make one. I did it in this thread.

Also what you said among a group of friends is different from what you say in the job. Like night and day different.

Mothro:

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

So....men who complain about anything have a victim complex while women who complain about everything don't have a victim complex. Sounds like a double standard to me. It's interesting how the people who claim to want equality don't want actual equality. They think we (men, usually white) should be paying off an old debt for an undetermined number of years to come.

I did not comment on anyone having "victim complex", so please do not make assumptions on my perspective on that. I do not see that men are paying off an old debt, instead I am seeing that we are in a period of time where they are progressing towards improving the workplace and are still receiving push back as is expected. There is not or was never about an " old debt" it is about the ever changing current environment as improvements are being implemented.

You quoted my post about a victim complex but didn't want to actually discuss that? Ok, why don't you want to discuss that?

I don't think someone whose ducking my post about men's problems but still wants to pretend he's championing me has much right to complain.

Mothro:

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

So....men who complain about anything have a victim complex while women who complain about everything don't have a victim complex. Sounds like a double standard to me. It's interesting how the people who claim to want equality don't want actual equality. They think we (men, usually white) should be paying off an old debt for an undetermined number of years to come.

I did not comment on anyone having "victim complex", so please do not make assumptions on my perspective on that. I do not see that men are paying off an old debt, instead I am seeing that we are in a period of time where they are progressing towards improving the workplace and are still receiving push back as is expected. There is not or was never about an " old debt" it is about the ever changing current environment as improvements are being implemented.

You quoted my post about a victim complex but didn't want to actually discuss that? Ok, why don't you want to discuss that?

Because it is not beneficial in any way to assign broad terms to either men or women as a whole and only serves to distract from the actual issues of how and why these things are the way they are and what can be done to correct them. It is of no benefit to society to claim " men do this" or "women do this" when in reality people do things due to individual reasons and circumstance and should be addressed as such.

Your post was also about workplace environment and design, including Air conditioning issues and that should not be brushed off as insignificant when it actually can have a serious impact on the work environment, their health and ones ability to compete and be productive.

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

Lil devils x:

I did not comment on anyone having "victim complex", so please do not make assumptions on my perspective on that. I do not see that men are paying off an old debt, instead I am seeing that we are in a period of time where they are progressing towards improving the workplace and are still receiving push back as is expected. There is not or was never about an " old debt" it is about the ever changing current environment as improvements are being implemented.

You quoted my post about a victim complex but didn't want to actually discuss that? Ok, why don't you want to discuss that?

Because it is not beneficial in any way to assign broad terms to either men or women as a whole and only serves to distract from the actual issues of how and why these things are the way they are and what can be done to correct them. It is of no benefit to society to claim " men do this" or "women do this" when in reality people do things due to individual reasons and circumstance and should eb addressed as such.

..and yet that is what we see all the time. That men do this to women and that women are oppressed. No one ever says 'don't generalize' until a man speaks up for himself.

Apparently Riot has some problem with women

Not some women, but women in general. Not some men but every man in the company.

Mothro:

Lil devils x:

Mothro:

You quoted my post about a victim complex but didn't want to actually discuss that? Ok, why don't you want to discuss that?

Because it is not beneficial in any way to assign broad terms to either men or women as a whole and only serves to distract from the actual issues of how and why these things are the way they are and what can be done to correct them. It is of no benefit to society to claim " men do this" or "women do this" when in reality people do things due to individual reasons and circumstance and should eb addressed as such.

..and yet that is what we see all the time. That men do this to women and that women are oppressed. No one ever says 'don't generalize' until a man speaks up for himself.

Apparently Riot has some problem with women

Not some women, but women in general. Not some men but every man in the company.

Again with the " no one ever..". That is simply not true. "Men" speak up for himself?" Again assuming that "Men" all want the same things or have the same perspective. They do not, as has already been established in this very thread by men who have expressed they do not want to have to deal with this toxicity in their workplace. When you start saying things like "men" have a victim complex, you will have to give specific examples and sources for this to actually apply, you did not do that, you are just generalizing large swaths of the population that this may or may not apply to. Yes, there are valid issues that should be addressed impacting men, but yes, there are also people whose purpose is not to actually address and resolve men's issues but instead only wish to discuss them, not improve them in order to attempt to make Women's issues appear to be less significant. There is a huge difference between the two.

For example, when "The Rock" was discussing Toxic masculinity and how it has impacted him directly, he was doing so to actually solve the problem and change society for the better.
( here: https://www.askmen.com/news/sports/the-rock-talks-mental-health-and-toxic-masculinity.html )

But then on the other hand, you had those guys who were complaining they couldn't stay at the women's shelter when they called the Domestic violence hotline, but failed to mention they offered to pay for him to stay in a hotel instead( better accommodations than the women receive) in an attempt to claim it is not fair he couldn't stay in the women's shelter. Yea, that whole fiasco was beyond absurd. They were attempting to attack " feminists" but wound up making them look even better than thought before. There are some things that such terms may apply, but to generalize and miscategorize like they are all the same thing is intentionally misrepresenting the reality of the situation.

( That event was actually linked and discussed on these forums a couple of years ago, but I am not digging through the forums again to try and find it)

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