What have gamers got against regenerating health?

 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT
 

I personally prefer my health to recover rather than scramble about looking for med-packs. Plus, with non-health regen there's always the Halo nightmare scenario of being stuck at a checkpoint, hordes of nasties bearing down on you, no health packs in sight... and 1% health remaining.
Regen health avoids all of that unpleasantness.

Maybe it fits in with arcady shooters like COD and the like, but it absolutely has NO PLACE in any type of semi realistic tactical type shooters for obvious reasons.

As i was discussing with someone in the GR thread, having it in a game like R6 Vegas was a complete joke and UBI should be ashamed of themselves. (for more reasons than just that, might I add)

There's little to no intensity to it, you just duck behind cover or whatever thing the game has you doing for a bit and then bam, it's all fine again. No intensity, no consequences.

Used to be in my day if you did shitty in a fight you had to pay for it, forcing you to play better in the next few and to, as a result, become better at the game. Oh sure it could be frustrating if you walked into a big unexpected fight with two health and a peashooter, but on the other hand if and when you actually won that fight it just felt amazing as a result. You accomplished something awesome (Insofar as anything you do in a videogame can be considered an accomplishment) and felt great as a result. Classic risk vs. reward.

Just imagine System Shock 2 or Half-Life with regenerating health, it wouldn't work. There would be no worry about those annoying headcrabs hiding in the air ducks, who cares if they nick you a bit when standing still a few seconds mends it all up? And what's the worry about scavenging and conserving?

Which isn't to say that health packs were perfect or that regenerating health is always bad. Depends on the game. But it's also easy to see why many, myself included, prefer one over the other.

Pretty much a combination of the first two responses: it detracts from the realism when your character can just say "Hold up guys, let me duck down here and magically get rid of these bullet holes scatter across my chest........alright, I'm good, let's fight!" This same scenario also utterly derails the action of the game for the same nonsense. You're in the middle of a fight for your life...that "fight for your life" turns out to be more like "A fight for....some chest-high walls." as that's all you need to win thanks to every modern day FPS character being Wolverine without the adamantium.

Anthraxus:
Maybe it fits in with arcady shooters like COD and the like, but it absolutely has NO PLACE in any type of semi realistic tactical type shooters for obvious reasons.

As i was discussing with someone in the GR thread, having it in a game like R6 Vegas was a complete joke and UBI should be ashamed of themselves. (for more reasons than just that, might I add)

As it happens, that very comment was what prompted me to begin this thread - congratz!

It kills any such scary of dying.Need health run around a corner and you're all healed up you enemies aren't. So there is very little threat of failure. Though it works in some games like InFamous. I mean in that game when low on health you have to be careful to dodge attacks and get to electricity. It makes a happy medium.

Capthca: level playing field.

Oh you. How clever.

RJ 17:
it detracts from the realism when your character can just say "Hold up guys, let me duck down here and magically get rid of these bullet holes scatter across my chest........alright, I'm good, let's fight!"

Surely no less realistic than being able to repair ten bullets to the brain and a rocket up the ass with a band-aid and aspirin...?

WhyWasThat:

RJ 17:
it detracts from the realism when your character can just say "Hold up guys, let me duck down here and magically get rid of these bullet holes scatter across my chest........alright, I'm good, let's fight!"

Surely no less realistic than being able to repair ten bullets to the brain and a rocket up the ass with a band-aid and aspirin...?

It's not perfect, but having to pick up a 1st Aid Kit is still more realistic/makes more sense than thinking of gum drops and puppy-dog tails to heal yourself. :P

I like the combination of non-regen health and regen shields, like halo reach and borderlands. Thats the way I like regenerating.

But yea, it really kills all tension if you can heal to full infinite times during a fight. It doesn't punish you for soaking up a lot of bullets like a brain-dead moron. Also, it makes for very short skirmishes with other players. Like, whoever sees the person first wins the fight. Its not really a matter of skill. Just play a game like Halo Reach or Tribes Ascend and notice how much more you're jumping around and dodging your opponent while trying to predict where they move. Its just more fun.

WhyWasThat:

RJ 17:
it detracts from the realism when your character can just say "Hold up guys, let me duck down here and magically get rid of these bullet holes scatter across my chest........alright, I'm good, let's fight!"

Surely no less realistic than being able to repair ten bullets to the brain and a rocket up the ass with a band-aid and aspirin...?

Yes, it's less realistic. At least you can rationalise using health packs or whateever that the character uses some form of medication. But if the entire concept is that you're a normal everyday dude, how in Hastur's name would he recover from being repeatedly shot merely by not being shot for a few seconds?

Also, I don't think RJ 17 actually said anything about medpacks. There are even more realistic mechanics than "I puck up aspirin, I'm OK now".

EDIT: ninja'd. Revised my comment.

I think it works rather well in halo and cod. I just wish more developers were willing to use different mechanics in their fps games as opposed to just copying what's popular!

It's not regenerating healthy fault it's an overused mechanic!

Don Savik:
I like the combination of non-regen health and regen shields, like halo reach and borderlands. Thats the way I like regenerating.

Yeah, I'd say that's the best compromise. Or having a certain threshold, like your health only auto-regenerates up to 20%.

I like the hybrid system of Mass Effect 3 and Far Cry 2 best.

or you could go the route of operation flashpoint and arma.. you might be healed enough to walk but you aint hitting anything and sure arent running.

they each have their place and using the wrong system in the wrong game hurts gameplay badly. sadly i think more and more games will go with regenerating health as the younger generation of gamers are raised to expect it from games.

WhyWasThat:
snip.

Theres arguments for both. Regen health is good because it means after a fight you can carry on, but no consequence for doing badly.

Health kits are good because there is consequence. But running around looking for a pack can equally kill the action as well.

i think the best of both is the way to go. A small shield to take the odd wound. But more serious hits and you damage your permanent health. Like the shield/ health in halo 1 or the bar system in far cry 2.

Re: Borderlands, that game did something else right with health regeneration - it tied it to mechanics other than hiding. Special mention goes to Mordecai, who heals by throwing a flaming bird in people's faces.

It's a matter of context. A game that's just about getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, that has almost no emphasis on exploration, has only a few types of enemies, or is a complete sandbox should probably use regenerating health. A slower-paced, linear game with somewhat divergent paths to explore, tons of ambient detail in its environment, and extremely diverse enemy types should probably use a health bar. The problem is that today, a lot of games that are in the latter category are simply slapping on regen health just because that's what Call of Duty did and because it's a lot harder to balance the difficulty in games with health bars (money-grubbing and laziness, basically), and it only serves to make those games less intense and less engaging because it essentially resets you after every encounter and kills any possibility for exploration to be rewarding.

SoranMBane:
It's a matter of context. A game that's just about getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, that has almost no emphasis on exploration, has only a few types of enemies, or is a complete sandbox should probably use regenerating health. A slower-paced, linear game with somewhat divergent paths to explore, tons of ambient detail in its environment, and extremely diverse enemy types should probably use a health bar. The problem is that today, a lot of games that are in the latter category are simply slapping on regen health just because that's what Call of Duty did and because it's a lot harder to balance the difficulty in games with health bars (money-grubbing and laziness, basically), and it only serves to make those games less intense and less engaging because it essentially resets you after every encounter and kills any possibility for exploration to be rewarding.

The situation isn't as bad as you make it out to be though. Plenty of FPS games still employ the health bar system, with medkits and such.

Examples that spring to mind are Singularity, Metro 2033 and Resistance 3.

Personally , it makes things too easy . That and it kills the flow . Remember in golden eye 007 , the only thing you got was body armor , there were no health packs . I liked that system , a lot more realistic too . Adds some difficulty . You would take your time rather than hiding behind a wall for 5 seconds the rushing into the enemy , rince repeat.

WhyWasThat:

SoranMBane:
It's a matter of context. A game that's just about getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, that has almost no emphasis on exploration, has only a few types of enemies, or is a complete sandbox should probably use regenerating health. A slower-paced, linear game with somewhat divergent paths to explore, tons of ambient detail in its environment, and extremely diverse enemy types should probably use a health bar. The problem is that today, a lot of games that are in the latter category are simply slapping on regen health just because that's what Call of Duty did and because it's a lot harder to balance the difficulty in games with health bars (money-grubbing and laziness, basically), and it only serves to make those games less intense and less engaging because it essentially resets you after every encounter and kills any possibility for exploration to be rewarding.

The situation isn't as bad as you make it out to be though. Plenty of FPS games still employ the health bar system, with medkits and such.

Examples that spring to mind are Singularity, Metro 2033 and Resistance 3.

I know. I don't really see where I made the problem out to be some sort of epidemic, I was just illustrating why regen health can fail a lot of the time. For every Resistance 3-type game, there are always a few Resistance 2s and Fear 3s that fall flat because the pacing of those games begs for a health system they don't have.

hmm put it this way, if I shot a rifle in your head your not going to crouch and hide for recovery. The only thing real about regen is that you would have blood all over your face and couldn't see

WhyWasThat:
I personally prefer my health to recover rather than scramble about looking for med-packs. Plus, with non-health regen there's always the Halo nightmare scenario of being stuck at a checkpoint, hordes of nasties bearing down on you, no health packs in sight... and 1% health remaining.
Regen health avoids all of that unpleasantness.

So things are actually tense. I feel no tension if I can take a load of bullets to the face, hide behind something and shake it off like nothing.

Also, your scenario is extremly rare. If you are stuck before a part with only 1 hp then this means that you fucked up or the game is shitty balances in terms of health pack drops. And still: going with 10-20hp into a bossfight in a shitty FPS without regen health > every fps with regen health ever made.

For the most part, nothing. I do like games where you carry around health kits as part of your inventory or something along those lines. Health is a resource you have to manage vs. something free that comes from hiding behind a wall or is tripped over at random.

I don't really care about the realism arguments. First aid doesn't work that way in any event. Gordon Freeman injecting himself with something that was lying around in a filthy alley or half submerged in radioactive sludge could be considered an unsound practice, medically speaking. XD

The Madman:

Just imagine System Shock 2 or Half-Life with regenerating health, it wouldn't work. There would be no worry about those annoying headcrabs hiding in the air ducks, who cares if they nick you a bit when standing still a few seconds mends it all up?

This is something I had not thought of though. I think its a good point.

It's a lazy health system.

That is all.

Just so I avoid a low-content post, here is a picture of a cloud:

A picture is worth a thousand words, so meh.

I love realism in games, but at the same time, I like regenerating health for the advantage it gives the player, particularly on the hardest difficulty settings. I actually love the Halo way of doing it, with proper context. Basically, in Halo, you have regenerating shields which fit with the lore because the characters have it as part of their armour systems. The actual health, though, requires health packs to regenerate. Again, it fits with the lore, because in the Halo canon there are things such as biofoam (used to plug body cavities and wounds) and other reasonable medical tools that may not exist in real life but are certainly feasible within the canon. These are, in the canon, confirmed as being enough to keep someone alive on the brink of death (in Halo 3: ODST [SPOILERS!] Romeo is saved despite bullet wounds to the lungs and chest by biofoam, and in the books a minor character is kept alive barely after needler rounds literally explode inside his torso and turn his organs to mush - the biofoam stops him bleeding out while he's rushed to a medical facility~).

So to summarise my view, regenerating health is okay, regenerating health with proper realsitic context is better, a mixture of realism and regenerating health in context is the best case possible here.

Oh, and on a related note, people often seem to wonder why in RPGs a 'Phoenix Down' can bring you back to life after death, yet no character ever thinks to use them during cutscenes when someone dies. My theory: characters don't die in battle, they merely become unconscious thanks to the wounds they suffer. Phoenix Downs and similar items act in a similar way to smelling salts, and other medical items are used that don't appear in the inventory to heal the wounds themselves. When a character dies properly then a Phoenix Down won't be useful at all (the cutscene loophole explained), and when you get a game over after your entire party dies then that's because everyone is unconscious and thus easily killed off without a fight. If it's like in FF13 where the main character dying causes a game over, then that's explained by simply being that the character really is dead, not unconscious like the others. Cure magic and Life magic, for the theory to work, also works in the same way as I just described for the Phoenix Downs and other items.

In general? It just feels a bit lazy. Regenerating health can be a useful addition to some games (I actually can't imagine Call of Duty or Battlefield being designed without them), but when it is chosen as the default option for health replenishment, it means games must be designed in one of two ways: Either as a sequence of linear, small areas without much chance for exploration, or a small map with very key points of position for shooting and healing.

It's ok to a point I like systems like Resistance Fall of man and ME3 where it regenerates up to a point. Overall I would say it just makes the game to easy.

Nothing, so long as its done right.

The Halo games had the health system perfectly down, take the first couple bullets and your fine but take enough and your power armor really only looks nice. (I should also mention that thanks to Halo 2 and 3, we have morons who still believe its ALL regenerating health)

This doesn't mean its bad in Gears of war's case, it makes sense towards the fast paced cover based gameplay.

Call of duty is much the same but sometimes I feel its relatively pointless.

I'm all for it, realistic games suck anyways.

Kahunaburger:
Re: Borderlands, that game did something else right with health regeneration - it tied it to mechanics other than hiding. Special mention goes to Mordecai, who heals by throwing a flaming bird in people's faces.

Not to mention grenades that did the same thing. (Those were way OP'd by the way)

I also love Halo: Reach's or Mass Effect 3's, shields for the first couple BS rounds and then actual health. Half Life can suck it because shields are just another health bar in that game.

Because people like to complain. There are plenty of reasons to hate current shooters but regenerating health? In games like Duke Nuken I could understand (he doesn't need a mechanic that encourages him to hide) but for the most part I like it. It means that the game-play keeps flowing, unlike older games where one bad mistake could see you inching forward at a snails pace for the rest of the level because you only need one foe to catch you unaware before you have to start over.

PS - Why is everyone talking about realisim? At no point in shooters are you forced to spend days to weeks recovering from gunshot wounds, so why is stopping for half a sec to pop open a medi-pack suddenly more realistic than regenerating health?

Valdus:
Because people like to complain. There are plenty of reasons to hate current shooters but regenerating health? In games like Duke Nuken I could understand (he doesn't need a mechanic that encourages him to hide) but for the most part I like it. It means that the game-play keeps flowing, unlike older games where one bad mistake could see you inching forward at a snails pace for the rest of the level because you only need one foe to catch you unaware before you have to start over.

The problem many people have with implementation of regenerating health is that it disrupts game flow. Instead of rewarding the player for progress, it rewards the player for staying where they are. Where something like Doom will change in gameplay tempo depending on what health level the player is at, something like CoD will stop the flow of gameplay entirely every few seconds while Soap wipes the jam of his face.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course - Halo 2, for instance, because it features enemies that will flank a stationary player.

Valdus:
PS - Why is everyone talking about realisim? At no point in shooters are you forced to spend days to weeks recovering from gunshot wounds, so why is stopping for half a sec to pop open a medi-pack suddenly more realistic than regenerating health?

Again, the entire premise of the military shooters is that you are an average person. Well, in the military but still not supernatural. being able to shrug off any amount of damage isn't realistic and yet realistic is what they try to look.

I agree that picking up a medpack wouldn't realistically cure you of your wounds but it's more realistic than being cured of all your wounds by sheer will.

However, if the setting does allow it, I don't see why not. In Quake 3, you can play as a friggin' walking eyeball or a skeleton. There are teleports and other weird devices. There isn't much realism to speak of. Eithere regenerative health or healthpacks work in such a setting. But a game that does strive for realism should try something, you know, realistic.

It disrupts game flow, mostly. And it also makes them too easy, or possibly too hard. Instead of needing to avoid taking damage by dodging bullets, all you need to do is crouch behind a wall. On the flipside (the other part I don't like) sometimes it makes your character have so few hitpoints. In Marathon, for instance, your character could take some punishment, not a huge amount but a reasonable amount. You stayed alive by dodging bullets, and sometimes you had to choose which hits you might have needed to take. It added a bit of really quick-thinking strategy. Whereas with modern shooters, all you really need to do is hide behind a chest-high until you regenerate, which kind of disrupts game flow. And if you can't make it to a chest-high wall in time, you only have like 2 or 3 hits before you die, and in most cases things are going too fast to dodge.

It feels like and afterthought 90% of the time. If a game is going to have regenerating health, it NEEDS to be worked into the core of every aspect of the game. Regenerating health should not be used as a crutch for bad players just so they can get through the game. A game needs to punish the player for performing poorly, and cheaply implementing a regenerating health system cheats the player out of feedback on his performance. The fact that a player can get shot in the face and be fine a few seconds latter, with no real difference between the two endpoints, tends to dampen a players level of engagement. Unless the game has some form of scoring system (i.e. DMC)directly contradicts the point of even having a health system tends to blur the divide between the skill levels of gamers. If the regenerating health is worked into the core of the game, and doesn't give the player the option of sucking his thumb for to long, then it doesn't matter. However if it is just thrown in for the hell of it, it will diminish the quality of the game. The fact is that there is a difference in how a game with standard health, and regenerating health have to be designed.

 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked