So about all of this sexual assault...

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So unless you have been living under a rock, celebrity sexual assault is the big thing in the news.

About a month ago, a boatload of celebrities came forward about Harvey Weinstein.

A few weeks ago, a bunch of people came forward about Kevin Spacey.

A few days ago, people came forward about Louis CK.

Late last night, someone came forward about George Takei. He is the one that I am going to touch on, today.

Basically the story goes that in 1981, George Takei had a friend called Scott. They met up a few times, and one day, they both went back to George's house, they both had a few drinks, Scott passed out (heavily implied that he was drugged), and woke up with George trying to pull his underwear down, before he got up and left.

12 hours ago, George Takei was minding his own business. Now that this allegation has come forward, it has been reported by most major news outlets, and Twitter has basically exploded with comments such as:

Everyone even on Star Trek new George Takei was a bit creepy

Another pretentious, self-righteous, Hollywood D-bag bites the dust.

Hes guilty and disgusting and should be treated as such.

If you are a liberal you support George Takei the PROVEN rapist

Whats irking me is that everybody is just assuming that he is guilty, much like with Kevin Spacey, who's career is now in the gutter.

What happened to proof? Trials? Evidence? If he is guilty, then shame on him, he should know better, and he deserves to be punished accordingly, but no formal charges have been filed, yet people are treating him like a convicted rapist.

It would be super easy for me to contact a news outlet, say George Clooney sexually assaulted me after a night out 15 years ago, and then watch the storm ensue. How are you supposed to defend yourself from an accusation like that?

This whole Trial by Twitter thing is getting kinda ridiculous. Its one large echo chamber, where guilt is assumed, and its just plain wrong.

What is everybody's thoughts on this?

What? If you are liberal you support George ladededa? Man, some people love to reach through their own arseholes to find a connective smear these days. Even if he's guilty, it's like saying "if you like rock music, you support the lost prophets lead singer."

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal thing. People who aren't judges or police or the like are free to assume he's guilty and treat him like he's a rapist, by which I mean say things about him on Twitter. Same as they can say he's working for the Illuminati or whatever. Or call a politician a traitor. If Takei should lose a job or something because of social media responses, that's another matter.

Also, people are assuming right away that he's guilty, which seems odd. Not that long ago, people were giving Cosby the benefit of 50+ doubts, Takei doesn't even get one...at least from some people. I suspect there are people hostile to Takei using this as an excuse.

We're doing this cool new thing now where we don't automatically dismiss people who come forward with stories of abuse and don't stand to gain from them. Entertainment, politics, ...Tabletop RPGs. Though I might be one of the few plugged in there.

Honestly, Takei's been the only one I hadn't seen coming so far.

Thaluikhain:
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal thing.

Yeah, exactly.

The way I see it, assuming that somebody's innocent until proven guilty is a good principle to have in court, but it's not reasonable to always act that way in daily life outside of court.

To use an extreme (and absurd) example: Let's say a guy is accused of shoplifting candy. He's been convicted for that crime hundreds and hundreds of time. All accusations against him of that crime have proven true without exception. He claims that he wasn't shoplifting, because it was actually his evil twin (which is the only possible defense he has). In this scenario, you wouldn't assume it was his evil twin until proven otherwise. You'd just go "yeah, right."

Or to put it less absurdly: Outside of court, I don't assume that until evidence has been shown, accusers are always liars. Because I know that the world doesn't actually work like that. Instead, I acknowledge that I don't know enough about the situation to tell whether somebody is guilty or not.

EDIT: Okay, I just found the perfect way of putting it. That somebody is a rapist is something I won't hold to be definitely true until I see some form of evidence. But that somebody is maliciously trying to tarnish the name of an innocent man with rape allegations in order to gain from it... That's also an accusation that requires evidence.

Well, on the "bright side" it's not like Takei has much of a carreer nowadays. I'm sure he's mostly just coasting on royalties.

The irony of this situation is that this whole #MeToo campaign was set up for people who have suffered sexual abuse or harrassment to come forward and speak out against those in a position of power abusing it. And now the #MeToo has become quite powerful itself.

Honestly, this has all been bothering me alot cause well, look, I want good to prevail. I want those who did wrong, especially against others to not just get away with it. I dont want to discourage people speaking out when they are wronged...

But people are terrible in all sorts of ways. I hate every knowingly false accuser, cause they are ruining innocent people, both innocent people they accuse, and the credibility of real victims who do speak out.

I also acknowledge the bias. Its easy to believe that a person you dont like did something bad. Alot harder to believe or accept someone you like doing wrong. I know I really want to believe that Takei is innocent, that Spacey is innocent, but if they arent, they shouldnt get to go unpunished.

I just wished we lived in a just society. We dont. Even if Takei is guilty, I think it is wrong to have him get punished but not someone like Trump.

Another issue is where is the line of forgiveness? I mean, some acts are unforgivable, but what about lesser wrongful acts? What if someone does own up and apologize? When does it count? When does it not?

People are prone to bandwagoning. To throwing others under the bus. Even if Takei is guilty, how many who 'knew' really just hate gay people? Or just hate Takei and want to add fuel to a fire?

Even Cosby, I am sure many of his accusers are liars and know it, and that hurts the credibility of those not lying, who dared to speak out.

We honestly need to be open-minded but cautiously skeptical. We need to try to really consider what we know, what we dont know, and why we think or want to think what we do.

I hope every guilty person gets fairly punished, be it rapists, assaulters, or false accusers. I want the innocent to come out ok, be it victims of sexual assault or rape, or victims of false accusations. But who knows anymore?

Xsjadoblayde:
What? If you are liberal you support George ladededa? Man, some people love to reach through their own arseholes to find a connective smear these days.

I think its because George has been a very vocal liberal voice against Trump. I can imagine a lot of people are happy to see him in this predicament.

Casual Shinji:
Well, on the "bright side" it's not like Takei has much of a carreer nowadays. I'm sure he's mostly just coasting on royalties.

Oh yeah, almost certainly. I can't imagine that he is doing much these days, other than the occasional job, or an appearance on some talk or radio show.

Saelune:
I just wished we lived in a just society. We dont. Even if Takei is guilty, I think it is wrong to have him get punished but not someone like Trump.

There's also the whole thing with Netflix, where they cancelled House of Cards due to allegations against Spacey, but they have another show starring a guy accused of four attempted rapes, and they're just ignoring that.

Casual Shinji:

Saelune:
I just wished we lived in a just society. We dont. Even if Takei is guilty, I think it is wrong to have him get punished but not someone like Trump.

There's also the whole thing with Netflix, where they cancelled House of Cards due to allegations against Spacey, but they have another show starring a guy accused of four attempted rapes, and they're just ignoring that.

Who?

Thaluikhain:

Also, people are assuming right away that he's guilty, which seems odd. Not that long ago, people were giving Cosby the benefit of 50+ doubts, Takei doesn't even get one...at least from some people. I suspect there are people hostile to Takei using this as an excuse.

You have to remember both Spacey and Takei sexually assaulted men, and is thus 200 times more icky and gross to the common person

as opposed to powerful men taking advantage of women under their thumb which is a tuesday (and pretty much the dream for every working class man forever)

Casual Shinji:
There's also the whole thing with Netflix, where they cancelled House of Cards due to allegations against Spacey, but they have another show starring a guy accused of four attempted rapes, and they're just ignoring that.

Netflix said it was a coincidence that they were ending the show then, which might have been true for all I know.

undeadsuitor:

Thaluikhain:

Also, people are assuming right away that he's guilty, which seems odd. Not that long ago, people were giving Cosby the benefit of 50+ doubts, Takei doesn't even get one...at least from some people. I suspect there are people hostile to Takei using this as an excuse.

You have to remember both Spacey and Takei sexually assaulted men, and is thus 200 times more icky and gross to the common person

as opposed to powerful men taking advantage of women under their thumb which is a tuesday (and pretty much the dream for every working class man forever)

I had overlooked that, yeah.

So are we gonna have to stop watching Star Trek now, too? Gorrammit, if only there had been some other sci-fi about a starship team exploring the galaxy that we could switch to instead...

Casual Shinji:
There's also the whole thing with Netflix, where they cancelled House of Cards due to allegations against Spacey, but they have another show starring a guy accused of four attempted rapes, and they're just ignoring that.

The inconsistency across the board is ludicrous. Weinstein and Spacey are cut loose, but Polanski is still part of the Academy despite refusing to face an actual criminal trial?

My mother is one of the most kind and supporting people in my life. She thinks white people and black people shouldn't marry and that contraception is given to black people because the ones doing it don't want black people to breed.

People fucking suck. We're a bunch of animals that learned how to make tools and we're acting like we're somehow above the base impulses of other animals when we're really not.

I hope the accusations against Takei aren't true, I really do, but I'm not the type of person who dismisses every single sexual assault accusation as a gold digger because I find it easier to live a comfortable lie.

But you just know plenty of people are going to jump on this when they're the type of person that's more than comfortable calling every woman who comes forward a lying harlot who's just trying to ruin an honest man's life. Why let hypocrisy get in the way of shitting on the man who criticized the incompetent president you voted for?

EDIT: Well, Takei has responded and denied the accusation.

image

I really, REALLY hope he's telling the truth.

Pfft. Trials are boring and take too long. An accusation is all the proof I need that (this person I hate is disgusting and everyone like him should be locked away)/(the "other side" is trying to destroy this upstanding person I admire) [choose one]. The court of public opinion shall decide!

Catnip1024:
The inconsistency across the board is ludicrous. Weinstein and Spacey are cut loose, but Polanski is still part of the Academy despite refusing to face an actual criminal trial?

You'll also note that there are people who campaign about sex crimes who don't see a problem working with Polanski. It's somehow not the same when it is someone they know personally, or that can help their career. I daresay that some of them genuinely believe in it, it's not just a PR stunt for them, but they just can't or won't grasp that one of them is one of the people they are opposing.

erttheking:

Well, Takei has responded and denied the accusation.

image

I really, REALLY hope he's telling the truth.

George Takei is a man who called another guy a douchebag in the best and most decent kind of way. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.

Saelune:

Casual Shinji:

Saelune:
I just wished we lived in a just society. We dont. Even if Takei is guilty, I think it is wrong to have him get punished but not someone like Trump.

There's also the whole thing with Netflix, where they cancelled House of Cards due to allegations against Spacey, but they have another show starring a guy accused of four attempted rapes, and they're just ignoring that.

Who?

I think it was the one who played that stoner guy. I'm not sure on the details though, I only heard about it due to the Spacey accusations. But it seems like only the people caught in the #MeToo crosshairs get dog-piled and dealt with swiftly by the media, while perpertrators who aren't just get ignored.

And honestly, if Netflix were to cancel every show that had a cast member with similar skeletons in their closet... Yeah. I doubt they're going to pursue this further, and only deal with it if it's all over the media, like with Kevin Spacey.

Queen Michael:
Okay, I just found the perfect way of putting it. That somebody is a rapist is something I won't hold to be definitely true until I see some form of evidence. But that somebody is maliciously trying to tarnish the name of an innocent man with rape allegations in order to gain from it... That's also an accusation that requires evidence.

Fact is that false accusations assassinate someone's name and character while the accuser is most often given the benefit of the doubt. That has been true throughout all of history but espescially in the current age of social media witch hunts and regular media's hypocritical herd mentality. Even if proven that the accusations were false the stigma will remain and the damage has been done.

I personally put false accusations in the same category as rape and murder. Even in Christianity if you read Dante's Inferno the worst layer of Hell was actually reserved for liars of a similar stature. The lustful were fairly minor offenders but this blew up during the Victorian age that we now seem to have a resurgence of.

Anyways this whole nontroversy has taken such ridiculous proportions that it will backfire sooner or later and cause severe word inflation of actual rape charges. People indulge in seeing famous people burned at the stake by hypocritical media pundits but the waters are muddied to such an extent that it will soon lose any moderate sympathizers. The more you throw around serious allegations like 'assault' and 'rape' and the more unsubstantiated they prove to be the less meaning they will ultimately have. Espescially when they become part of a particularly insidious climate. No court would be able to claim independence.

Casual Shinji:

Saelune:

Casual Shinji:
There's also the whole thing with Netflix, where they cancelled House of Cards due to allegations against Spacey, but they have another show starring a guy accused of four attempted rapes, and they're just ignoring that.

Who?

I think it was the one who played that stoner guy. I'm not sure on the details though, I only heard about it due to the Spacey accusations. But it seems like only the people caught in the #MeToo crosshairs get dog-piled and dealt with swiftly by the media, while perpertrators who aren't just get ignored.

And honestly, if Netflix were to cancel every show that had a cast member with similar skeletons in their closet... Yeah. I doubt they're going to pursue this further, and only deal with it if it's all over the media, like with Kevin Spacey.

Well, as I was suggesting in my own post, there is a huge imbalance of 'justice'. O'Reily only got in trouble when it actually cost Fox money, and they quickly scooped him back up when they thought no one was looking. Trump is President.

Plus again, bias is a major concern. I know I am trying my hardest to not let bias cloud my judgement though, but its not easy. I mean, nothing of Takei's life suggests he could do such a thing and lie about it...but if he could lie about it, then thats a scary thought. But I also expect bias to work against him when as others pointed out, are more willing to use this as an excuse against a gay man while not caring about the suffering of women.

These issues are extremely complicated for everyone.

Saelune:
Plus again, bias is a major concern. I know I am trying my hardest to not let bias cloud my judgement though, but its not easy. I mean, nothing of Takei's life suggests he could do such a thing and lie about it...but if he could lie about it, then thats a scary thought.

It's also disconcerning knowing that a lot of the movies, games, shows etc that we love are made by or feature people that have a very ugly side. Some cases it's relatively minor, like Mel Gibson being a bit of a racist nut, and others it involves truly awful shit, like with O.J. Simpson. I know that whenever I watch The Naked Gun now it just feels kinda icky.

Personally I feel I'm on the moral high ground of waiting for court to rule it out, I don't care much for any of the people in those cases (and in some cases rather dislike them) but I wouldn't change my mind that they must be 100% guilty without trial because someone accuses him/her.

Though I am gloating on the people who see their icons ruined by their own morals, Hollywood is getting Neogaf'd.

Edit: I wonder what will happen if there was an accusation of rape of a male by female, especially by an esteemed actress I'd expect the guy would get crucified.

Laggyteabag:
...much like with Kevin Spacey, who's career is now in the gutter.

Spacey didnt deny the allegation from Rapp, and he arguably made it worse by coming out as gay as a deflection.

And that was before the extra allegations from his colleagues also working on House of Cards.

Thaluikhain:
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal thing.

It's also not the only legal standard for proof. Civil courts go by the preponderence of evidence which on a day to day basis is how most people think (obviously weighted by all the various unconscious biases that come with being human).

Sexual crimes and sexual misconduct are especially difficult to claim "innocent until proven guilty" because pretty much anyone (including me) believes that the VAST majority of sexual offences are never reported or never lead to a conviction. Far outweighing the cases where false accusations lead to wrongful punishments, though that does also happen.

I think some people are leaping to guilt right away in recognition of this imbalance. I do sympathise with that attitude and I agree that believing the victims is important for the long term progress on combating "rape culture". However, many abuse victims never come forward largely because they have some affection for their abusers and don't want to get them in lots of trouble. I can't help but think that mass condemnation for lesser actions might be counter-productive.

Louis CK, for example, should not be compared to the likes of Weinstein. Louis was much more creepy than predatory and I believe him when he says he didn't fully appreciate the implicitly coercive nature of what he did at the time and that he's remorseful and would never do something like that nowadays. I hope he takes some time out of the public eye and gets a chance to rebuild his reputation... I do happen to be a massive fan of his so perhaps my bias is clouding my objectivity on this one.

Ultimately, I think a lot of people are going to have make peace with the fact that we're never going to have definitive "proof" either way on some of these cases. Guilty people are likely to avoid jail sentences (perhaps even Weinstein) and possibly some innocent men will have their reputations ruined by false or exaggerated claims. Justice is really hard!

inu-kun:
Edit: I wonder what will happen if there was an accusation of rape of a male by female, especially by an esteemed actress I'd expect the guy would get crucified.

Already happened, kinda.

A former bodyguard of Mariah Carey accused her of sexual misconduct and harrassment.

It even included a spicy racial angle.

As far as I'm aware no crucifixion was forthcoming, although I haven't been actively following it.

I'm giving George Takei the benefit of a doubt till we get much more info. All the other accused had large numbers of people accusing them. This is just one guy and while if it is true, its horrible, it also fits into a timeline of false accusations starting. If more people come forward then I might give it some additional attention, but till then I'm assuming innocent till proven otherwise.

Zhukov:

inu-kun:
Edit: I wonder what will happen if there was an accusation of rape of a male by female, especially by an esteemed actress I'd expect the guy would get crucified.

Already happened, kinda.

A former bodyguard of Mariah Carey accused her of sexual misconduct and harrassment.

It even included a spicy racial angle.

As far as I'm aware no crucifixion was forthcoming, although I haven't been actively following it.

Searching about it online it seems to be tightly swept under the rug without any blowback to her career. Which I guess is marginally better than going against the guy but completely hypocritical considering the entire point in all hashtags is going against powerful people making those claims disappear without any damage.

*snip*

Innocent until proven guilty is what so many people are forgetting.

That being said, that didn't stop George for declaring others "guilty" of the same thing, so it's quite sweet seeing him swallow some of his own bitter medicine.

Honestly I am not surprised. I kinda saw it coming when he started in on Milo for saying the exact same things he has said in the past.

stroopwafel:
Fact is that false accusations assassinate someone's name and character while the accuser is most often given the benefit of the doubt. That has been true throughout all of history but espescially in the current age of social media witch hunts and regular media's hypocritical herd mentality. Even if proven that the accusations were false the stigma will remain and the damage has been done.

Not true. Trump is PotUS, for example, winning an election after being accused by several woman and also boasting of sexual assault. People have been talking about Weinstein for many years, only now is he feeling any result of it. Arnie still is gets to be in Terminator movies.

Hell, even when there's no doubt about it, it's not always so damaging to a reputation. Polanski admitted to raping a child, fled the US and went on to have a long and distinguished film career. Mike Tyson has star power, the community of Steubenville rallied behind the rapists against the victims etc.

Now, it can happen that a false accusation is taken seriously, but in those cases we tend to see an accuser of much greater social standing than the accused. A respectable middle class white woman accusing lower class black men of rape, for example, playing on racism and classism, she might get away with that.

stroopwafel:
Even in Christianity if you read Dante's Inferno the worst layer of Hell was actually reserved for liars of a similar stature.

Liars and betrayers, but yeah.

I don't consider Dante's Inferno to be gospel at all of course, but in my religion, the unforgivable sins are basically sins of extreme betrayal, and they're also ultimately what made Lucifer (a Son of the Morning I might add) get cast out of heaven.

Maybe enough powerful people will be irreparably damaged without due process that there will be a change in our laws to make such slandering and ruinous rumors prior to the adjudication of charges illegal and to keep them confidential in the same way people protect the identities of minors who are charged with or are victims of crimes.

That being said, these people are still filthy rich and most of them aren't actually going to jail so I really don't care what happens to such an empty thing as their "reputation" since they can buy people to be nice to them till the day they die. I'm gonna save my sympathy for the thousands of poor kids in third world countries who will die due to starvation today instead.

inu-kun:

Zhukov:

inu-kun:
Edit: I wonder what will happen if there was an accusation of rape of a male by female, especially by an esteemed actress I'd expect the guy would get crucified.

Already happened, kinda.

A former bodyguard of Mariah Carey accused her of sexual misconduct and harrassment.

It even included a spicy racial angle.

As far as I'm aware no crucifixion was forthcoming, although I haven't been actively following it.

Searching about it online it seems to be tightly swept under the rug without any blowback to her career. Which I guess is marginally better than going against the guy but completely hypocritical considering the entire point in all hashtags is going against powerful people making those claims disappear without any damage.

I could've sworn you got on my back for using victims to "push an agenda" not too long ago. Is it ok to do now?

For those doubting the accusations against Takei, here's an interview he did on Howard Stern where he bragged about grabbing people by the crotch.

https://youtu.be/OLtw9Tpg9Pg

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