A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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BloatedGuppy:

It's never that black and white, Ogroid. It's seldom a case of "Roar, I hate vaginas, and thus will condemn all female characters ever for having one", and more likely a case of "My hackles are already up because the character is female, so I'm far more cognizant of flaws/faults than I would be for a NORMAL (I.E. White Male) character." We already had one individual in this thread accusing the thread of "pandering to minorities", and listing "women" as one of them.

If you say so. As I said, I find that the criticism of Rey is based on real writing concerns, and therefore should merit at the very least some consideration, as opposed to instant dismissal based on what amounts to no more than an incredibly uncharitable assumption of not only the motives but the very moral fiber of the people making it.

Yes, Poe is a good pilot. "Poe is an amazing pilot" the film tells us, and he goes on to do amazing stunts for the rest of the film. You do understand what "Mary Sue" means, as a descriptor right? It's character as authorial wish fulfillment. I *believe* it was originally coined as a condemnation of self-authored RPG characters who were always the children of Gods or the best at everything because there was a hyper focus on what would be "cool" rather than what makes for a good narrative device. It's already a slightly cumbersome device to apply to a Star Wars film, where "It's in the film because it was cool" is literally how the entire IP sprung into existence in the first place. Death Star, AT-AT, Lightsabres, none of it makes a lick of pragmatic sense. It's all Rule of Cool. Is Poe a Mary Sue? Absolutely he is. "This guy is the BEST PILOT EVER PEW PEW" is his entire characterization. Rian Johnson tries to texture him a bit by also making him a hot head, but it's kind of like "character texturing 101". It's the sort of thing Stephanie Meyer would do.

Ackchyually, the whole Mary Sue phenomenon began, as I think someone already pointed out in this topic, with Star Trek fandom and fanfiction - which was largely female, by the way - which tended to produce not only characters who were instantly better than everyone else at everything they tried with no training or experience required, but who also were instantly liked by every canonic character besides being rather blatant authorial self inserts.

Luke is a simple bumpkin from the ass end of Nowheresville, Backwatershire. A simple farm boy who in the course of a single film turns the Empire on its ear and performs astounding acts of mystical heroism. Campbell's Monomyth is literally diluted into a single 2 hour film. Lucas never planned a trilogy from the get go. Luke's Hero's Journey is over by the end of the film. Vader is defeated, the Death Star is destroyed, Luke gets a giant ass medal hung around his neck and a kiss from a Princess. It's simple, Archetypal storytelling. This is not HBO's "The Wire". Rey gets a very similar arc in TFA, in large part because TFA is slavishly recreated from the DNA of A New Hope, due to Disney's desire to reboot the IP by evoking the Original Trilogy to wash away the prequel stank. Suddenly, a portion of the fanbase is feverishly incensed at the presence of this UNBEARABLE MARY SUE.

As I understand it, what incensed the fandom was things like a nobody scavenger girl magically knowing the workings of a ship better than two people who manned it for decades, expertly flying said ship despite clearly stating to have never done so before in her life, becoming a near-perfect shot with a blaster the second time she fires one, and effortlessly pulling Jedi tricks it took Luke two films to start pulling off despite not even knowing the Force was a thing until a couple of hours (days?) before.

I obviously don't know whether any of that is in the film, but if it is, it does seem to me worthy of some scrutiny. Because it's simply bad writing, particularly if several instances of it stack upon one another. And pointing out bad writing isn't really that good a reason to indict people's character in my book.

She was. And her writing was terrible. And people did hate the fact she was a 2nd female protagonist.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=star+wars+sjws&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7gNn5-KrYAhUBR2MKHaMPA50Q_AUICygC&biw=1440&bih=777

You don't have to look far, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJfTpAGXK0

Again, I'll take your word as far as the writing is concerned. But while I'm sure one could find people complaining about her if one went actively looking for them, once again, I haven't seen any in my habitual haunts, which should, I've been repeatedly informed, be a veritable breeding place for them.

It's not. Rogue One was AWFUL. And it got plenty of hate, from many of the same sources. It doesn't get nearly as much attention as TFA did because it wasn't the first film in a new trilogy, or the first Star Wars film to be released since the miserable prequels.

But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.

altnameJag:

inu-kun:

But being a janitor doesn't make you adept at signal processing so it's still dumb. Fat asian lady being a technician raises a question of why did they give a job with potential violent outcomes to a single none-fit person who might be knowlegable enough to help the situation rather than give it to the pilots or regular disciplinary officers who don't have anything to do right now. It's bad writing of jamming two characters together despite the location makes no sense.
Granted if I think the Resistance is made of morons it makes perfect sense.

...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.

1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.

Gethsemani:

inu-kun:
If I remember correctly, the German army wasn't that in a bad shape after WW1. As well as the French lost mainly due to relying on trench warfare and thus rather than act agressively bunkered down on the border (which the german army bypassed around). The British were going full pacifists no matter how the apperant the German were bad and acted after it was too late.
Regardless, I was under the impression the leaders of the Resistance were capable in some way considering people like Leia and Akbar were already in a previous war and it wasn't that aweful of power balance last film (granted watching the movie, maybe getting wiped out id the best thing that can happen to them considering their stupidity).

The German Army was restricted to 100,000 active personnel in the treaty of Versailles and were forbidden from developing armored vehicles, the Navy got harsh tonnage restrictions and were forbidden from building any new ships for 15 years after having most of their fleet taken away and Germany was explicitly forbidden from having a military air force.

The German re-armament began in earnest in 1934, five years prior to the invasion of Poland, and the speed and determination of it took everyone by surprise. As I understand it the tie-in novels to TFA makes the Inter War analogy explicit: the Republic disarmed itself after beating the Empire, content that the New Order would be unable to re-arm and resume hostilities. 40 years later, that turned out to be a bad move.

It still smells of bad writing, unless the Empire had some massive loyalty and goowill amongst a good chunk of the planets in the galaxy (which considering how tyrranical and monstreous they were is unlikely) the new order would have been hard pressed to find support. This means that the republic had waited for it to conquer their own territory for several years (if not decades) until it reacted, otherwise the new order would have been squashed by the numerical advantage alone.

inu-kun:
6) Why does Luke randomly die? I mean, I guess it's justified in script as "he used too much power" (despite it only being an hologram) but as a writer why would you kill him for a cheap gut punch?

inu-kun:
I said it was justified in script. But thematically it is just bad as the movie hammered the idea into our heads anyways and killing loved characters to emphasize it further is lazy screenwriting. It gave me more of a feeling that they aren't sure Mark Hammil won't survive to later films. Also there is absolutely no sense Luke won't appear as Force ghost anyways.

He probably will, but thematically having him survive would be even weirder. The movie is about legacy and what we pass on and how it is received. Having the character at the center of the legacy theme survive would fuck the theme up completely. "Here's my gift to you, but I'll play an integral part in the next movie too so bummer."

But he doesn't need to play an integral part, he can just watch from the sideline and throw the occasional tip and training (and it can be handwaved on him being too old to fight). Another theory I thought of is that originally he really was supposed to be on the planet and die to Kylo Ren (in a complete rehash) only for it to be rewritten later as a projection and him dying afterwards.

inu-kun:
Rey could use it or any other people who want to know the mythology of the force (even if not for combat) and in general burning books because you don't like what was written in them is not something that is looked upon favourably.

Imagine for a moment that you got a hold of last copy of the collected writings of Marx, Lenin and Stalin. Imagine that someone came to you for political tutoring. Would you seriously hand over books you believed were wrong and harmful to them? Luke is disillusioned with the Jedi teachings and what he perceives as their elitism and moral absolutism, so why should he give those books to someone he's trying to steer away from that?

YES. I'll even say something crazier, I'll also hand over Meinn Kampf. You know why? Because humans repeat mistakes. If we destroy every renmant of Communist writing it will be a manner of years before someone decide on making everyone equal through commiting atrocities, and he will think it is a new idea that was never tried because he doesn't know Communism existed and failed. By keeping legacy of Communism we can point to examples of it failing whenever someone wants to repeat it.
So if Luke doesn't want that the next Jedi generations after Rey to think blocking emotions can help the best thing he can do is to include those books as well of a history book that chronicles what lead to the Jedi nearly getting wiped out.

inu-kun:

What I caught was "bad things happened on their watch", it might have been subtler but this was one part that subtelty should have been thrown to the wind.

It wasn't very subtle. Luke believes that the Jedi were moral absolutist elitists that fostered the myth that only they could use the force in the right way. His mistake with Ben was believing in the Jedi teachings that there could be, literally, no darkness in any "real" force user. Instead of allowing the darkness in Ben to co-exist with the light side and supporting the light, the Jedi way was to stop the threat before it got serious. Which caused Luke to nearly kill his own nephew.

But that's not correct, I only need to bring up Mace Windu as an example of a force user who combined both sides to fight. If anything, the Jedi were too lenient with Anakin and let him steer away from their teaching without reeling him back. Which ironically lead to Luke trying to "correct" their sins by thinking of murdering Ben before it was too late.

Ogoid:
If you say so. As I said, I find that the criticism of Rey is based on real writing concerns, and therefore should merit at the very least some consideration, as opposed to instant dismissal based on what amounts to no more than an incredibly uncharitable assumption of not only the motives but the very moral fiber of the people making it.

There is plenty of criticism of Rey. Some based on real writing concerns, some based on a perceived hysteria about "Cultural Marxism" destroying Star Wars by pandering to minorities and women. Did you watch the YouTube video I posted for you? Would it be an insult or a smear against the moral fiber of the speaker if I were to suggest he belongs to the latter camp?

Ogoid:
Ackchyually, the whole Mary Sue phenomenon began, as I think someone already pointed out in this topic, with Star Trek fandom and fanfiction - which was largely female, by the way - which tended to produce not only characters who were instantly better than everyone else at everything they tried with no training or experience required, but who also were instantly liked by every canonic character besides being rather blatant authorial self inserts.

None of which makes her a Mary Sue.

Ogoid:
As I understand it, what incensed the fandom was things like a nobody scavenger girl magically knowing the workings of a ship better than two people who manned it for decades, expertly flying said ship despite clearly stating to have never done so before in her life, becoming a near-perfect shot with a blaster the second time she fires one, and effortlessly pulling Jedi tricks it took Luke two films to start pulling off despite not even knowing the Force was a thing until a couple of hours (days?) before.

As discussed at length with the fandom, none of those exaggerated statements are true.

1. She worked on the ship for years. Her boss owned it.
2. She'd flown before. How do we know this? She tells us. This is exactly the same way we found out Luke and Poe had flown before. They told us.
3. The Falcon had been retrofitted by Unkar Plutt. Han hadn't been onboard her for many years. Rey was more familiar with those retrofits than Han, as he was completely unaware of them.
4. She shoots a few Stormtroopers, much as Luke does in A New Hope, despite never having used one before. When faced with Kylo Ren, he easily overcomes her and disarms her. Overcoming a few Stormtroopers is not an act of extreme competence in common Star Wars parlance. Small Teddy Bears do it en masse in the third film.
5. She pulls off one Jedi trick after multiple attempts (influencing a weak mind).

I mean I could go on and on. They're all feeble arguments and nit pickery, and almost blow for blow they are rehashing Luke's similar exploits in A New Hope because she's a Luke stand in. Is fairy tale Heroes Journey in space with magic "strong writing"? Of course not. If people want to take it to task because they're not watching Blade Runner, they are welcome to do so. What gets a little bemusing is when ardent fans of the OT (or, god forbid, the PREQUELS) attempt to construct an argument that the writing for and presentation of Rey in TFA is somehow uniquely bad, or unusual for the series. And when it is CONSTANTLY framed in terms of her gender (it's all girl power/Disney pandering), it's not hard to perceive as being motivated by something other than a dislike for cornball characterization in space adventures. You can whinge about people's "moral fiber" being impugned all you like, but this shit is not particularly hard to spot.

Ogoid:
I obviously don't know whether any of that is in the film, but if it is, it does seem to me worthy of some scrutiny. Because it's simply bad writing, particularly if several instances of it stack upon one another. And pointing out bad writing isn't really that good a reason to indict people's character in my book.

It's in the film as I just described it to you. In A New Hope, Luke is blocking laser bolts while blindfolded hours after picking up a Lightsaber for the first time. Swinging across gorges and bullseyeing Storm Troopers mere moments after that, and is the best pilot in the entire Rebellion shortly after THAT. Despite being a whiny farm boy whose sole contribution to existence previously was bullseyeing womp rats and moaning about power converters. Is that silly? Yes. Is it "bad writing" as compared to actually well written films? God yes. Did anyone care? No. It was a space fantasy movie inspired by Flash Gordon. It was supposed to be light hearted and cheesy. Why only now do we suddenly care about verisimilitude in Star Wars? Why is it all specifically levied at this one character?

Ogoid:
Again, I'll take your word as far as the writing is concerned. But while I'm sure one could find people complaining about her if one went actively looking for them, once again, I haven't seen any in my habitual haunts, which should, I've been repeatedly informed, be a veritable breeding place for them.

You don't have to look hard. I googled "Star Wars" and "SJW" and there's pages and pages of it. If you haven't seen any, that might have something to do with you not looking/not caring about the subject. The video I sent you was from Rebel Media. Other "Goober Gators" were quite excited to share Rebel Media links with us back in the day, as they were often busying themselves screeching at feminists and sneering at liberals and that was like fucking catnip for the right audience.

Ogoid:
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.

The volume of criticism rises and falls with the popularity and scope of the thing being criticized. This is hardly a startling revelation, Ogoid.

General opinion of the film? It was entertaining but full of problems.

While the humor mostly lands, the characters are likeable enough (most of them, anyways), and the action entertaining enough to keep me interested, the movie had terrible writing, plenty of lore and universe problems, and countless plotholes that just took me out of the movie constantly and made what seemed to be a simple enjoyable film into a frustrating one. I'd say if you want to see it, wait til it is on tv or netflix.

And, only warning, spoilers abound after this point.

First, while the humor largely worked, there seemed to be too much of it and too often in ways that hurt the tone of the time. For every time it worked to help show characterization and warmth, there was one that fell flat or undermined the tone. Something good would be luke's meeting with R2 ending with R2 showing the original "help me, obiwon" clip only to be met with a "that was a low blow" style quip from luke at R2's attempt to persuade him to join back up. It showed their friendship and the heart of the old farmboy was still there under the grumpy demeanor. Compare that to the visual gag in the casino of a CGI alien "opera singer" mugging for the camera like they were in a 90's era direct to video sequel. Or the tonal whiplash of the opening scene with poe prank calling the first order as his friends and comrades try to flee for their lives. I liked that they remembered to have fun, as the prequels seemed to largely forget that, but they overdid it and often it failed as much as landed.

Next, they squander every plot setup they made before. Snoke's point/purpose/history? Gone. Rey's parents? Pointless. Why did luke make the map? IDK. The scene where he first gets the lightsaber back defines this problem. He tosses it behind him like it is shit. Rejection of the entire point of the first film in spirit and visual. Not even a solemn dropping of it and going "no, i can't anymore", just a strait up joke out of denying the potential of the previous film. Complete with forced insertion of the toy mascots playing with it.

Thirdly, while the characters were likeable enough, there were many who had problems, or were unsalvageable.

Lets start with the worst. Hodor was just bad. I think they were going for some sort of angry police chief to poe's doesn't-play-by-the-rules cop, but in the situation they were in she instead came off as entirely incompetent, if not outright traitorous. She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar. She refused to tell anyone she had a plan at all (as people siding with poe demonstrates). She is the ENTIRE reason for the rose/finn subplot, and the subsequent death of nearly all the resistance ships that resulted in. Her death was the loss of a character no one cared about prior to the movie but treated as something people should care about. And her method of self sacrifice left still had me pointing out how badly she failed as a leader. While some would argue that warp-speed into a dreadnaught shouldn't work that way, what I was wondering was why they didn't try that with every other large ship prior, instead of sacrificing them like they had. If her ship alone caused so much damage, having the medical frigate or others do it as well, even if only half the damage, it would have devastated the first order or even killed the head of the snake. Hell, you could have given characters like Ackbar a worthwhile sendoff as being a hero who was once a slave driving the ship right into their faces instead of unceremoniously blasted into space for the sole reason of showing off leia's superman pose.

On to the next new major character, Rose. She was ok, funny introduction, but it always felt like her sister should have been the character that had that role, not her. That might have been part of the point, but she felt out of place, like a tag-along. Even the stuff in the casino, with the decryptor, and so on had me feeling that way. The saving of flinn was odd as well, and the romance angle felt super forced. Still, I don't hate her character nor do I think they were central point in a long series of character and plot problems like hodor.

To the main characters, they largely remained consistent and enjoyable. Poe was, well, poe. Even though the joking at the intro of the move felt like bad juxtaposition with the tone of the rebels fleeing, it did feel right that his character would be the one to do that, and he remained consistently enjoyable even through the forced "lesson" about brashness. The character growth was poorly handled but that is about the worst there.

With Flinn, he went from concern about his friend, to joining the rebellion. And he beat the chrome trooper. Both of which would have been more impressive if they had been set up better, but still not bad and he was an enjoyable character to watch.

Phasma. Wasted, again. My biggest complaint about her in the previous movie was that it should have been her, not a nameless trooper, that called flinn a traitor and fought him. As if hearing my complaints, this movie does just that. And then as per norm, seems to mess it up as they try to double-down on the vibro axes, and half the screen-time and point. Disappointing, but I hope they bring her back again.

Rey. Still a mary sue. She instantly gets luke's first lesson which he himself didn't for a long time. She masters the lightsaber enough to fight multiple red guards. Her previous points of being a mary sue were still in effect as well. Enjoyable enough to watch, but it gets annoying.

Kilo. He wears his pants too high and it is weird and distracting. Otherwise, a good capture of a character conflicted every which way, still a child in mind, still seeking approval, still unsure and emotional.

Snoke. Hugh Hefner gold robe and wasted potential. Also pretty damn dumb, though it was so telegraphed that in a better written movie, it could have been a great ploy to get himself killed just so he too could be "more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

Luke. Seemed the character was changed into someone who went from being unable to deny the light in a seemingly irredeemable man who murdered countless, into one who tried to murder his nephew at the first hint of darkness. Also the blue milk thing... just why?

Leia. I get people wanted to see her use force powers, but superman still wants his green-screen back. Could just have shown the bridge damaged and she use her power to lift wreckage out of the way.

But that ties into the last point. The CGI. Too much of the film looked bad for it. Be it the plastic Porg-roast chewie had, the dog-horses at the casino, or the very fake looking effects around the characters in many scenes, the visuals felt like a step down. Even things that were animatronics, such as the crystal foxes, looked fake because of the bckgrounds.

...That was longer than I expected.

Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl

Because if it wasnt, people would be making a similar big deal about an imperial janitor who doesn't have force powers wielding a lightsaber with no training into battle twice. Using it effectively both times.

And fighting a trained sith, with no force powers, and not instantly dying

A janitor with no fighting experience or force powers who went AWOL on his first mission used a lightsaber for longer and more effectively than an untrained jedi

But she's the overpowered one

undeadsuitor:
Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl

The volume of the screeching is because she's a girl. It's not like there's nothing wrong with the character. Other than Kylo Ren, it's hard to think of a character from the new films that merits much praise. She has some basic character texturing...she's pugnacious and earnest and eager for praise...but in terms of having a coherent arc she's all over the place. Much like Finn and Poe, she spent almost the entirety of TLJ spinning her tires.

But I mean, this is the Star Wars fandom we're talking about. There would be screeching about Dexter Jettster if anyone could remember his fucking name.

Ogoid:
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.

runic knight:
She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar

Ackbar's actor was actually one of the casualties of 2016.

It was so good, but then it was also sooo bad. It was fun and I enjoyed it, but walking back to the car I was like hmmm that scene didn't quite make sense, why is this character like that... until by the time I got home I had a whole list of things that were wrong with it. I know star wars has always been scifi fantasy ... but... it seemed to just ignore its established universe and basic logic though.

After the spectacle and nice shots were over and all thats left is your memories of the story and scenes it just fking implodes.

undeadsuitor:
Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl

Yeah, that is why characters like Mara Jade and Jaina Solo are fan favorites of the same nerds who are complaining about rey and the movie today. Not because she was poorly written, poorly implemented, a blatant marry sue, and was harbinger of the death of beloved characters in the franchise, nope, just a pair of ovaries...

Because if it wasnt, people would be making a similar big deal about an imperial janitor who doesn't have force powers wielding a lightsaber with no training into battle twice. Using it effectively both times.

And fighting a trained sith, with no force powers, and not instantly dying

A janitor with no fighting experience or force powers who went AWOL on his first mission used a lightsaber for longer and more effectively than an untrained jedi

But she's the overpowered one

Wait, you mean Finn? The guy who was said to be exceptionally martially skilled during the Force Awakens and was kept out of fights because of his mental problems with the sort of scum and villainy the imperials did? Hell, I am pretty sure they even lampshaded why they kept him around in the movies by specifically mentioning that he was really skilled, just was a bit of a wuss. He was considered one of the best stormtroopers of his unit even. Hell, Phasma (a character everyone says was wasted, rather odd if people didn't like characters because they were girls) specifically kept note on him because of his exceptional skill.

You are trying to compare Rey's Mary Sue bullshit with him being able to survive using a lightsaber (First order being the group they are, him being trained in combat with and against one being very reasonable to assume)?

Rey lived in middle of no where, no training, no experience. She was able to excel in using the force, fly han's ship better than he could, out-fight a trained sith, and was beloved or wanted by everyone who met her all in the duration of what, hours?. Were this a written fanfic instead of an acted one, she would be called a self-insert mary sue without complaint. Comparing all that to an established exceptionally trained trooper as a counter point is laughable. Finn might not be the best written character (can be a bit one-note in the first film), but comparing that to rey only works as a point of example of how badly her character was written.

bastardofmelbourne:

runic knight:
She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar

Ackbar's actor was actually one of the casualties of 2016.

This makes me sad. Still, even something like a quiet and wordless salute as he drove a medial frigate into the first Order's face would have been better than random explosion killing him and jettisoning his corpse into space like trash.

inu-kun:

altnameJag:

inu-kun:

But being a janitor doesn't make you adept at signal processing so it's still dumb. Fat asian lady being a technician raises a question of why did they give a job with potential violent outcomes to a single none-fit person who might be knowlegable enough to help the situation rather than give it to the pilots or regular disciplinary officers who don't have anything to do right now. It's bad writing of jamming two characters together despite the location makes no sense.
Granted if I think the Resistance is made of morons it makes perfect sense.

...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.

1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.

1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.

I saw this movie last night and, quite frankly, I hated it. It was a bad movie. MaRey Sue was as horrible as ever, Rose quickly became a second hated character, Luke and Yoda seemed a bit our of character, at least two characters I can't even remember the name of, and frankly...

Well, the best thing I can say is that at least they learned from Force Awakens. They did a SLIGHTLY better job disguising that this was effectively a shitty Empire Strikes Back rehash. Just move the Battle of Not Hoth to the END instead of the start, and stick a bit of Return of the Jedi in the middle, and nobody will notice a thing! Good job, top notch.

Chessrook44:
I saw this movie last night and, quite frankly, I hated it. It was a bad movie. MaRey Sue was as horrible as ever, Rose quickly became a second hated character, Luke and Yoda seemed a bit our of character, at least two characters I can't even remember the name of, and frankly...

Well, the best thing I can say is that at least they learned from Force Awakens. They did a SLIGHTLY better job disguising that this was effectively a shitty Empire Strikes Back rehash. Just move the Battle of Not Hoth to the END instead of the start, and stick a bit of Return of the Jedi in the middle, and nobody will notice a thing! Good job, top notch.

MaRey Sue wasn't as horrible as ever: she was even more horrible here. She was already overpowered in TFA, but here she's relegated to a completely reactive protagonist for most of the movie. And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.

altnameJag:

inu-kun:

altnameJag:
...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.

1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.

1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.

1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched. 2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away). 3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.

bartholen:
And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.

In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly? One of the chief praises/criticisms (depending on the view of the person speaking) is that it breaks a lot from the conventional Star Wars mould and only very superficially resembles ESB (the rebels are on the run, the jedi goes looking for a mentor). It keeps a bunch of things as throwbacks to ESB, like a fight between walkers and guys in trenches on a white planet, but the narrative structure is entirely different and the beats are not even in the same realm.

Just to highlight the most obvious: In ESB Luke leaves Yoda despite not having finished his training, in TLJ Rey leaves Luke because he's unwilling and unable to teach her more then he has. There's literally no plot line in TLJ similar to the Bespin plot and ESB has nothing like the Star Destroyer heist. You can accuse TLJ of a lot of things and disliking it is fine (as the Film Crit Hulk claimed that Tarantino once told him: Never hate a movie), but getting too grandiose in your criticism or criticizing things which aren't even there just makes you look like someone crazy or someone with an agenda.

inu-kun:

altnameJag:

inu-kun:

1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.

1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.

1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched. 2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away). 3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.

1) Nobody said he was a "simple janitor". Self-deprecating humor shouldn't be taken literally.
2) Obviously she can handle it, given she'd done it before.
3) They're resistance fighters trying to shamefully run away, not commandos trying to kill the starship mechanic. Kelly Marie Tran weighs less than 125 lbs. Is that what counts as "too fat to be believable" in your world? Really? According to the hilariously simplified standard of the BMI scale, she's got a BMI in the low 20's. A.k.a: This is what normal people look like. Shame you're so stuck in "Hollywood pretty" to recognize it.

'Course, this is also the first time I've heard that short and stocky is a disadvantage in a fight. Outside of competitive sport fighting anyway. And still irrelevant when she's armed with a stun gun.

altnameJag:

inu-kun:

altnameJag:
1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.

1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched. 2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away). 3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.

1) Nobody said he was a "simple janitor". Self-deprecating humor shouldn't be taken literally.
2) Obviously she can handle it, given she'd done it before.
3) They're resistance fighters trying to shamefully run away, not commandos trying to kill the starship mechanic. Kelly Marie Tran weighs less than 125 lbs. Is that what counts as "too fat to be believable" in your world? Really? According to the hilariously simplified standard of the BMI scale, she's got a BMI in the low 20's. A.k.a: This is what normal people look like. Shame you're so stuck in "Hollywood pretty" to recognize it.

'Course, this is also the first time I've heard that short and stocky is a disadvantage in a fight. Outside of competitive sport fighting anyway. And still irrelevant when she's armed with a stun gun.

1) So in addition to being a simple ground troop Finn is also a super engineer, trully masterful writing.
2) The fact the writing is bad shouldn't have us take it in face value.
3) Who said "too fat to be believable"? I simply said she has an insane physical disadvantage for the job and can be beaten by a taller person wielding a 2 by 4 without problem. Or simply two people encircling her. The fact they will try to run away doesn't mean they turned off their brain cells.

And it still has the question "why the fuck an engineer is relegated this task?".

Gethsemani:

bartholen:
And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.

In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly? One of the chief praises/criticisms (depending on the view of the person speaking) is that it breaks a lot from the conventional Star Wars mould and only very superficially resembles ESB (the rebels are on the run, the jedi goes looking for a mentor). It keeps a bunch of things as throwbacks to ESB, like a fight between walkers and guys in trenches on a white planet, but the narrative structure is entirely different and the beats are not even in the same realm.

Just to highlight the most obvious: In ESB Luke leaves Yoda despite not having finished his training, in TLJ Rey leaves Luke because he's unwilling and unable to teach her more then he has. There's literally no plot line in TLJ similar to the Bespin plot and ESB has nothing like the Star Destroyer heist. You can accuse TLJ of a lot of things and disliking it is fine (as the Film Crit Hulk claimed that Tarantino once told him: Never hate a movie), but getting too grandiose in your criticism or criticizing things which aren't even there just makes you look like someone crazy or someone with an agenda.

The best way I can describe it is that the film felt like it was made by the member berries from South Park:

"'Member the red guards? 'Member the Emperor's throne room? 'Member Hoth? 'Member AT-ATs? 'Member puppet Yoda? 'Member how a jedi in training went to a place of the dark side? 'Member how Luke tried to get Vader to turn? 'Member when the heroes had to infiltrate the enemy base? 'Member the Millennium Falcon coming to a last minute rescue? 'Member how Yoda dies? 'Member the Leia recording with R2-D2? 'Member C-3PO (why the hell is he in this movie)?"

Maybe rehash was the wrong word. In terms of narrative and structure it is rather different. But for all its talk about letting old things die it's still 10 feet deep in nostalgia and fan pandering. By referring back to things like Yoda and Darth Sidious the film also raises questions about its universe TFA didn't because it ignored them: how exactly did the First Order gain such power? Who is Snoke? Where does he come from? How did he reach Kylo Ren and what did he do to him that made Luke Skywalker give him less a chance than Darth Vader, a genocidal tyrant who'd been steeped in the dark side for decades? And why in the flying fuck is this rebellion resistance consisting of precisely one major cruiser and a severely reduced fleet such a threat that the greatest military power in the galaxy needs to send all their biggest guns after them, with their supreme goddamn leader in tow? Oh, they keep talking about how there's dissent across the galaxy. Telling, not showing. One scene with a bunch of slave kids ain't gonna cut it. And now that the thing the whole resistance banked on, ie. Luke Skywalker, is dead, how are they still the saviors of the galaxy?

inu-kun:

1) So in addition to being a simple ground troop Finn is also a super engineer, trully masterful writing.

Or he's a guy who does basic maintenance and was sharp enough to be earmarked for Stormtrooper training. There's shades between utter incompetence and genius master.

EDIT:Seriously, the idea that a starship's primary systems all have dedicated circuits isn't the part that was obfuscated in any way. That's true of damn near every ship. What Rose and Poe didn't know was where on an FO Star Destroyer those primary circuits would be located. Finn, presumably, knows where the circuit breakers are. Plus, Facists are stupid.

2) The fact the writing is bad shouldn't have us take it in face value.

"I refuse to believe military personal could be combat effective if their face is round"

3) Who said "too fat to be believable"? I simply said she has an insane physical disadvantage for the job and can be beaten by a taller person wielding a 2 by 4 without problem. Or simply two people encircling her. The fact they will try to run away doesn't mean they turned off their brain cells.

And, obviously, that didn't happen. News flash: anybody can be beaten by somebody wielding a 2x4. But there's a fair bit of difference between somebody wanting to escape and somebody being willing to murder a comrade to do so. But I'm glad you don't think it's unbelievable that somebody with an insane physical disadvantage would be given guard duty because they're "short and stocky" (despite not being fat). The stun gun, apparently, still isn't rated, nor the idea that people who routinely engage in physical labor tending to have more muscle than average. Starship engineers probably lift a fair number of things over the course of a day. Cabling, power couplings, radiation shields, etc...

And it still has the question "why the fuck an engineer is relegated this task?".

Dunno if you noticed, but they're kinda short staffed because of the whole "secretly funded guerrilla warfare unit on the run" thing. 'Course, I know an ICBM mechanic who's done more than one shift of guard duty when the Air Force needed bodies, so that's not weird to me.

Meh. I'd give it 7/10, albeit in my own personal ranking system. TFA would have been 4.

Maybe I just accepted it as having a more light-hearted tone than previously, but the characters worked alright. The consideration of a bit more than the typical black and white was quite nice to see, if ultimately a little underwhelming (That cave. Either have something interesting happen, or get her to do a barbershop quartet with the reflections. Come on, Disney).

Just to chuck my tuppence in on the Rose debate, I thought she was a decent character, up to the ludicrous saving Finn part. First, she ain't fat. Get a grip, folks. Second, it isn't racist to call her fat. Seriously. Third, it's made abundantly clear that the Alliance is struggling for people, as you can see from the string of work-experience kids on the desks in the bridge. Why assume they have more people available and trustworthy enough to guard the pods? The saving Finn bit was completely misjudged, though. Even forgetting about the physical impossibility.

Gethsemani:
In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly?

My problem is, the overall shape of the trilogy is virtually identical as it stands. The continual self-referencing isn't great, but it is the fact that this film only really serves to bridge the gap between the start and the finale. Jedi training, some plot development, and ultimately a sense of not a lot actually having happened. At least in Attack of the Clones, there was some interesting things actually occurring.

I mean, okay, the big bad has died, and that could lead to an interesting direction in the final film. But it didn't stop the sense of deja vu while I was in there.

inu-kun:
1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched.

To weigh into this one - IRL, there are hefty training requirements for working on ships or rigs. Stuff like patching holes, or fighting fires. And to fight a fire, you have to know what are the really important bits you need to protect. You have to know what the consequences of bits being disabled would be. One would expect that the crew of a galactic vessel would receive similar training, particularly as it is designed for combat.

2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away).

First, she was hidden and out of sight. Second, see above post regarding lack of personnel. Third, she's got a taser. You don't need to be a kickboxer to tase someone.

3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.

But an advantage if you are being shot at. Swings and roundabouts.

I'm just trying not to have an aneurysm looking at Youtube videos and comment sections about the movie (I'm looking at you, AngryJoe) and had to break my years long absence from the escapist to get it out SOMEWHERE.

I saw the movie recently, absolutely loved it but admit that there are problems. I enjoyed the overall message of the film but thought it was handled messily. Luke admitting his failure and Yoda teaching him how to be a better teacher essentially, great. Whole lightning on the tree thing, kinda weird. Like why did Yoda set the tree on fire unless the point was that the books are unimportant, but then if they're unimportant why did Rey need to steal them and teach the things that Yoda thinks is pointless ...

Also loved the message of the Canto Bright portion but Rose's lines were a heavy handed and was a bit hippie/hipster millennial activist, "Yeah we really stuck it to the man because we physically trashed a casino while the rest of the city still functions."

The gray-ness of the conflict, with the Resistance and First Order being funded by war profiteers, awesome, but just seemed out of place since the rest of the plot doesn't go into it. At one point I thought Holdo was going to be in league with these warmongers but nope.

The lore related complaints that I see against this movie though, my god, they are so nitpicky and are, in my opinion, mostly unwarranted. Like the Knights of Ren, Rey's parentage, Snoke, etc. set ups not being followed, I don't think those are TLJ's fault, it's TFA's. J.J. Abrams' mystery box way of film making sets up enticing questions that can never be satisfyingly solved because EVEN HE DOESN'T KNOW THE ANSWER, because for Abrams' the mystery is the important part. He's the one who left fans with all these crazy questions that they pondered over for two years and Rian Johnson did not want that baggage, symbolically shown with Rey handing over the reins to Luke and Luke tossing that shit away. TLJ should not be judged based on how well it answered or didn't answer a question you personally had been dying to know according to your whims. Then again I didn't care for the theories but if you were more invested you might've taken it more personally.

The inconsistency of the universe though, like what's the deal with the First Order, the Resistance and the New Republic is also TFA's problem. The fact that the Resistance exists under the command of Leia to counter the small but growing threat of the First Order because the New Republic doesn't want to keep fighting (Basically the plot of the later Harry Potter books) is something that should have been in the opening crawl because it's the main source of conflict in the galaxy, but TFA never addresses it outside of who's good, who's bad and that they are fighting.

runic knight:

Why did luke make the map? IDK.

I see this around a lot but I don't think Luke is the one who made the map. If he wanted people to find him why wouldn't he have just told Leia through the Force or even let her know before he left. The found him against his will thinking he wouldn't mind coming back to save the galaxy, but he was actually hiding because he was ashamed that he actually sparked the problem.

Gatx:

runic knight:

Why did luke make the map? IDK.

I see this around a lot but I don't think Luke is the one who made the map. If he wanted people to find him why wouldn't he have just told Leia through the Force or even let her know before he left. The found him against his will thinking he wouldn't mind coming back to save the galaxy, but he was actually hiding because he was ashamed that he actually sparked the problem.

Then, if not Luke, who made the map? Who else knew where he was when even Leia and her force-connection could not find him? Makes less sense if it wasn't Luke, since R2 had half the map in the first one, didn't he? It is just confusing.

Honestly, it looks like the director in this one just wanted to shit on all the potential of force awakens by giving clear ends to all the questions raised by it, or cutting away any unanswered bits in the worst way possible.

Quick Mary Sue round up:

wizzy555:
Quick Mary Sue round up:

Rose and Finn jack themselves off for freeing the rabbit-horses, but leave the children behind in child slavery. This while, as far as they knew at the moment, failing to accomplish their mission in service to the resistance's survival.

That about sums up the moral depth of the film to me.

And no, the corporate juggernaut known as Disney isn't going to be the one who provides a vehicle for any sort of meaningful critique of capitalism. Come on, people... "Let the past die! [Solo: A Star Wars Story coming this May.}"

bartholen:

The best way I can describe it is that the film felt like it was made by the member berries from South Park:

"'Member the red guards? 'Member the Emperor's throne room? 'Member Hoth? 'Member AT-ATs? 'Member puppet Yoda? 'Member how a jedi in training went to a place of the dark side? 'Member how Luke tried to get Vader to turn? 'Member when the heroes had to infiltrate the enemy base? 'Member the Millennium Falcon coming to a last minute rescue? 'Member how Yoda dies? 'Member the Leia recording with R2-D2? 'Member C-3PO (why the hell is he in this movie)?"

The thing is, it brings up all those visual and narrative cues so that it can play with your expectations of how they turn out.

So you see the Emperor's cool-looking, red-clad bodyguards actually getting to fight instead of just standing there and looking imposing. The Emperor gets killed by his apprentice, but not because his apprentice seeks last-minute redemption, and the Emperor's death changes nothing rather than resulting in instant victory. The AT-ATs show up and the rebels have to get on old speeders to go fight them, but the sally fails, the AT-ATs are completely unharmed, and most of the speeder pilots die for no reason. Puppet Yoda shows up and surprises Luke with a lecture on the positive aspects of failure, a bit of a contrast to his earlier "do or do not, there is no try." Rey visits a place strong in the Dark Side, but rather than getting some grand and terrible revelation like Luke did in Empire, she simply sees her reflection. She tries to redeem Kylo Ren, but he decides to stick with being evil. The rag-tag team of misfits infiltrate the enemy base, but fail, get caught, and make the situation much worse. The Millennium Falcon comes in and shoots up some TIE fighters, but that achieves basically nothing overall - the Resistance guys are still basically doomed when the laser-ram fires - and the eventual rescue later on would've been impossible if the survivors inside hadn't decided to try and escape on their own. And Luke dies, but not passively like Yoda did - he dies after taking action, re-living Obi-Wan's last stand in an unexpected way. (Seriously, in the lead-up to that my friend was like "ugh, they're doing Obi-Wan," and then when they didn't, he went "oh.")

The Leia recording and C-3PO, I got nothing. I don't know why C-3PO is in this movie. But Luke does call out R2-D2 for shameless exploiting his nostalgia. Overall, the film was working very hard to screw around with all your expectations as to how the film was going to turn out, and it largely succeeded.

It succeeded a little too much in my mind, because while having the characters waste a whole bunch of the audience's time on a casino planet for no reward may be very effective at deconstructing the success rate of the average just-crazy-enough-to-work plan, it does still waste a lot of the audience's time.

bastardofmelbourne:

The Leia recording and C-3PO, I got nothing. I don't know why C-3PO is in this movie. But Luke does call out R2-D2 for shameless exploiting his nostalgia. Overall, the film was working very hard to screw around with all your expectations as to how the film was going to turn out, and it largely succeeded.

I think this is the core contention that fans face in regards to TLJ. Whether you like it or not largely seems to come down to whether you are fine with it playing with audience expectations, subverting the traditional Star Wars narrative set up by the previous seven movies and moving the focus and themes in a new direction or not. A lot of the fan criticism seems to be, largely, that the movie didn't give them what they wanted, focused on the wrong things and was and wasn't Star Wars enough (at the same time too).

Just like ESB before it, it moved the series in a different direction from its' predecessor, introduced a bunch of new plots and themes that weren't there before (in AHN Luke and Vader were not related, the Emperor was never seen and mentioned just once and Han and Leia were not hot for each other) and dared strike out on its' own instead of remaining in the mold. Whether TLJ will be vindicated by history like ESB or will remain the divisive movie that overstretched remains to be seen.

Gethsemani:

I think this is the core contention that fans face in regards to TLJ. Whether you like it or not largely seems to come down to whether you are fine with it playing with audience expectations, subverting the traditional Star Wars narrative set up by the previous seven movies and moving the focus and themes in a new direction or not. A lot of the fan criticism seems to be, largely, that the movie didn't give them what they wanted, focused on the wrong things and was and wasn't Star Wars enough (at the same time too).

I get that, but surely one can accept that the movie has flaws in it regardless of expectations. Off the top of my head I can name:

-The power structure is just weird at this point, how the Republic apparently has no navy whatsover now, yet the First Order apparently has enough manpower to size control of the galaxy in a matter of weeks (I know the EU kinda explains this, but if your film needs to rely on external materials...) Also, if they do have such a large fleet, why can't they send another group of ships to intercept the Resistance from another angle?

-The Canto Blight arc feels superfluous, or at the least, goes on far too long (seriously, what was the point of the horse stuff? And what was DJ's plan, if he could leave the cell at any time? Just wait for a client to be thrown in with him before he uses the key card?)

-Holdo has no reason to keep Poe in the dark. I get that it's part of Poe's arc (less trigger happy), but it's a case of character stupidity being used to drive the plot.

-The humour. Honestly, I was fine with it (I even liked the porgs), but I could get why someone would find it grating.

-Subversion aside, the film feels weird structurally in the context of a trilogy. If anything, its ending kind of reminds me of Revenge of the Sith, of ending a trilogy, with the promise that in the next trilogy, things will get better. This could be lumped in with the subversion of Star Wars idea, but in terms of overall story structure...this film is kinda weird.

There's other little things that bug me (e.g. Luke tells Rey that he has three lessons for her, but only gives her two - apparently the third was cut from the final version), but those are the main ones. We could debate this all day, but I think it's fair to say that the film has its share of narrative problems, regardless of whether they're subverting Star Wars or not.

Hawki:
-The power structure is just weird at this point, how the Republic apparently has no navy whatsover now, yet the First Order apparently has enough manpower to size control of the galaxy in a matter of weeks (I know the EU kinda explains this, but if your film needs to rely on external materials...) Also, if they do have such a large fleet, why can't they send another group of ships to intercept the Resistance from another angle?

See, my understanding (albeit possibly missing some of the lore) was that the Alliance is not the Republic. They are a faction within it. The Republic would be fractured and bickering in the power struggle that follows the fall of the Empire.

As for the intercept, I guess it takes time to travel through hyperspace, and they weren't expecting to need more ships. You'd probably be talking a good couple of days even if a fleet was at a convenient position to start with, judging by some of the hyperspace sequences. That, or they didn't feel they needed it, what with the limited fuel and complete inability to fight back.

-Holdo has no reason to keep Poe in the dark. I get that it's part of Poe's arc (less trigger happy), but it's a case of character stupidity being used to drive the plot.

You could justify that by assuming that Holdo kept everyone in the dark because they don't know if there is a traitor in the ranks. Having been chased across the galaxy, including through hyperspace, it's not an unreasonable precaution.

The rest I pretty much agree with, though.

Hawki:

I get that, but surely one can accept that the movie has flaws in it regardless of expectations. Off the top of my head I can name:

Absolutely, it is not a perfect movie (which movie ever is?). However, the outrage against it can not be chalked up only to its' weird pacing, few weird character moments (Holdo's adamant refusal to tell Poe, Rose and Finn's joy over crashing a casino etc.) and attempt at including humor at least every other scene. As far as editing goes it could absolutely stand to shed at least 15 minutes of running time without feeling rushed or cramped. On the other hand it is better edited then Rogue One, which has an incredibly messy and unfocused first act that does first time viewers no favors in its' breakneck pace through multiple scenes that lack context and only become understandable once you reach the much better structured second act about 40 minutes into the movie.

So when people complain about the movie being bloated, it is also telling that they get hung up on things the movie doesn't do, like give us the origin story of Snoke, more scenes with Holdo explaining her deal or an elaboration on the Resistance's place in the Republic (something which was covered by a tie-in novel to TFA by those that absolutely have to know and is covered by at least half a dozen youtube videos, by the way). That tells us that the problem is not so much with what the movie does poorly as much as it is about what the person complaining wished the movie did.

Roger Ebert once said that he never judged a movie based on what he wished it was, but on whether the movie managed to do what it set out to do. That's a useful guideline both in watching movies and understanding where other people's criticism of movies comes from.

Gethsemani:

Hawki:

I get that, but surely one can accept that the movie has flaws in it regardless of expectations. Off the top of my head I can name:

Absolutely, it is not a perfect movie (which movie ever is?). However, the outrage against it can not be chalked up only to its' weird pacing, few weird character moments (Holdo's adamant refusal to tell Poe, Rose and Finn's joy over crashing a casino etc.) and attempt at including humor at least every other scene. As far as editing goes it could absolutely stand to shed at least 15 minutes of running time without feeling rushed or cramped. On the other hand it is better edited then Rogue One, which has an incredibly messy and unfocused first act that does first time viewers no favors in its' breakneck pace through multiple scenes that lack context and only become understandable once you reach the much better structured second act about 40 minutes into the movie.

So when people complain about the movie being bloated, it is also telling that they get hung up on things the movie doesn't do, like give us the origin story of Snoke, more scenes with Holdo explaining her deal or an elaboration on the Resistance's place in the Republic (something which was covered by a tie-in novel to TFA by those that absolutely have to know and is covered by at least half a dozen youtube videos, by the way). That tells us that the problem is not so much with what the movie does poorly as much as it is about what the person complaining wished the movie did.

Roger Ebert once said that he never judged a movie based on what he wished it was, but on whether the movie managed to do what it set out to do. That's a useful guideline both in watching movies and understanding where other people's criticism of movies comes from.

Agreed. I enjoyed the Last Jedi and I put up there with Empire Strikes Back. Like any film it has flaws, but nothing to make me go ape shit crazy like everybody else seems to be doing. Even Maximilian and his pals are mixed about the film

Oh and that is the only ever useful advice Rodger Ebert ever has done.

Gethsemani:
However, the outrage against it can not be chalked up only to its' weird pacing, few weird character moments (Holdo's adamant refusal to tell Poe [...]

I thought this was odd while I was watching the film, but after thinking about it, I don't think it was terribly strange after all. Holdo is a commander; Poe is a pilot, not an adviser, vice-admiral, or commander. It is not his job to know the broader strategy behind decision-making-- it's his job to fly an X-Wing.

Military commanders in the real world do not tend to inform soldiers of broader strategy.

Gethsemani:

[...] Rose and Finn's joy over crashing a casino etc.)

Well, a casino full of arms dealers who helped to make Rose's life very miserable indeed.

Silvanus:

I thought this was odd while I was watching the film, but after thinking about it, I don't think it was terribly strange after all. Holdo is a commander; Poe is a pilot, not an adviser, vice-admiral, or commander. It is not his job to know the broader strategy behind decision-making-- it's his job to fly an X-Wing.

Military commanders in the real world do not tend to inform soldiers of broader strategy.

Agreed. I was like "Yup, that's what my military service was like" when Holdo kept telling Poe to shut up and wait for orders. The one thing I wanted was a short scene or exchange that really made it explicit, by linking it to a fear of spies, Poe's reckless behavior at the start of the movie or anything. As is, the movie makes Holdo seem rather unreasonable to people who doesn't expect Star Wars to suddenly hold to actual military logic (remember in RotJ when 3 generals all go covert to attack a forest moon with like half a platoon of soldiers?).

Gethsemani:

Agreed. I was like "Yup, that's what my military service was like" when Holdo kept telling Poe to shut up and wait for orders. The one thing I wanted was a short scene or exchange that really made it explicit, by linking it to a fear of spies, Poe's reckless behavior at the start of the movie or anything. As is, the movie makes Holdo seem rather unreasonable to people who doesn't expect Star Wars to suddenly hold to actual military logic (remember in RotJ when 3 generals all go covert to attack a forest moon with like half a platoon of soldiers?).

Well, Holdo does chew out Poe for his behaviour during the bombing raid, saying it cost them their bombers. She does this just after Poe tries to introduce himself.

I'll concede, though, that after Poe starts actually mutinying, it would've been easier for Holdo to just bloody tell him.

Silvanus:

Gethsemani:
However, the outrage against it can not be chalked up only to its' weird pacing, few weird character moments (Holdo's adamant refusal to tell Poe [...]

I thought this was odd while I was watching the film, but after thinking about it, I don't think it was terribly strange after all. Holdo is a commander; Poe is a pilot, not an adviser, vice-admiral, or commander. It is not his job to know the broader strategy behind decision-making-- it's his job to fly an X-Wing.

Military commanders in the real world do not tend to inform soldiers of broader strategy.

Gethsemani:

[...] Rose and Finn's joy over crashing a casino etc.)

Well, a casino full of arms dealers who helped to make Rose's life very miserable indeed.

See I got the impression that Poe wasn't just a pilot, but the section commander of the fighter wing so while he's no admiral he still had a legitimate seat at the big kids table. Now since he was very publically demoted for being a wanker, he shouldn't have expected to be told the whole shebang but he should have been told something that he could tell his own subordinates who were clearly as dissatified with Holdo as he was. While I'm sure there is military nuance I don't see, to the untrained observer it looked for all the world that Holdo had her thumbs up her arse and was doing sweet Fred Astaire about the massive capital ship taking potshots at them. Hell I thought she was a traitor who was broadcasting their hyperspace location to the First Order.

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