So, apparently WW is pretty good.

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I saw it tonight, and quite enjoyed it. Solid tone, good performances, and it builds up enough "credit" to take the audience through moments that might otherwise seem mawkish or corny. There are a few bits that suffer from CG character physics, but mostly the spectacle works pretty well, and it even managed to surprise me a little a couple of times.

I'd recommend giving it a look.

Captain Marvelous:

Samtemdo8:
Eh I have yet to see anything that truly makes the New 52 that abysmmal.

image
One of the greatest travesties of the New 52. That and the raping Amazons, the entire Finch run, awful character re-imaginings (Like Mr. Freeze), the time compression, and a seemingly intentionally confusing continuity (Particularly Batman's and Green Lantern's). The New 52 was pretty bad.

hermes:
It would be easier to list the things in 52 that were not abysmal:
- Swamp Thing
- Animal Man
- The first arc of Wonder Woman

That is about it...

Swamp Thing and Animal man somehow managed to hook me, despite my distate for zombies, gore, and horror. First Swamp Thing anything I've ever read and I loved it!

I also recall Aquaman and Batman and Robin being pretty good.

And who is that supposed to be?

Samtemdo8:
And who is that supposed to be?

Amanda Waller I believe.

Yeah.

Where is your god now?

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
And who is that supposed to be?

Amanda Waller I believe.

Yeah.

Where is your god now?

I have no idea how they explained her current Viola Davis look in the comics.

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
And who is that supposed to be?

Amanda Waller I believe.

Yeah.

Where is your god now?

I would feel offended at this but than again I never liked Amanda Waller because she is a vain bitch, so I don't care they made her all sexy and stuff.

Samtemdo8:

Captain Marvelous:

Samtemdo8:
Eh I have yet to see anything that truly makes the New 52 that abysmmal.

image
One of the greatest travesties of the New 52. That and the raping Amazons, the entire Finch run, awful character re-imaginings (Like Mr. Freeze), the time compression, and a seemingly intentionally confusing continuity (Particularly Batman's and Green Lantern's). The New 52 was pretty bad.

hermes:
It would be easier to list the things in 52 that were not abysmal:
- Swamp Thing
- Animal Man
- The first arc of Wonder Woman

That is about it...

Swamp Thing and Animal man somehow managed to hook me, despite my distate for zombies, gore, and horror. First Swamp Thing anything I've ever read and I loved it!

I also recall Aquaman and Batman and Robin being pretty good.

And who is that supposed to be?

See? She isn't even recognizable! That'd be Amanda Waller.image
For whatever reason, DC decided Waller needed to be thin and hot. I get that they wanted to give her a more combat oriented role, but in doing so they erased part of what made her unique. Basically every other female hero and villain falls under the supermodel umbrella. It's very rare to see characters that break that mold and Waller was (and is since Rebirth) one of the few.

I thought the movie was pretty good, considering how Super Hero movies are usually. The tone and pacing was on point for the most part, and there was some pretty solid action sequences. Yes, the climatic fight with Wonder Woman was below standards, but Marvel has done a number of climaxes that were not terribly great, so I can give this one an easy pass when everything leading up to it was solid.

Bob_McMillan:

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
And who is that supposed to be?

Amanda Waller I believe.

Yeah.

Where is your god now?

I have no idea how they explained her current Viola Davis look in the comics.

It was a reboot, and they didn't. Her extra pounds went down the memory hole right along side a couple of Batgirls and Wally West.

Samtemdo8:

Zhukov:

Samtemdo8:
And who is that supposed to be?

Amanda Waller I believe.

Yeah.

Where is your god now?

I would feel offended at this but than again I never liked Amanda Waller because she is a vain bitch, so I don't care they made her all sexy and stuff.

Amanda Waller's a bitch, but that's kinda the point. She's this giant workaholic who works so hard to get the things she wants her way no matter the cost. Its kinda understandable too based on her backstory. The whole skinny thing is stupid.

altnameJag:

Bob_McMillan:

Zhukov:

Amanda Waller I believe.

Yeah.

Where is your god now?

I have no idea how they explained her current Viola Davis look in the comics.

It was a reboot, and they didn't. Her extra pounds went down the memory hole right along side a couple of Batgirls and Wally West.

Actually, she is back to her "normal" self (she kinda looks like Viola Davis. Her actor in Suicide Squad). That's what I meant, she no longer looks like a super model. They brought back Wally too, but at least they tried explaining it. With Waller, it was just BOOM she doubled in size, got shorter, and aged two decades. Without any explanation as far as I know.

Laughing Man:

I have one very important question that will determine whether or not I will give this film a chance.

Are the German soldiers portrayed as a competent and legitimate threat, or as cackling yet utterly ineffectual proto-Nazis who are going to use radioactive moon-rock super-weapons to blow up the world and exist only to be effortlessly beaten up by Wonder Woman?

Well since you're in the wrong era I can say for sure they ain't Nazi or Proto-Nazis. If what you are asking is are the Germans in this movie portrayed in the same way as Hydra's soldiers are In Captain America, i.e all sleak, highly weaponized, black shining armour fighting for the 'cause', then no, they are portrayed as what they were an army made of hungry, battle tired people fighting for a cause they neither really know about or understand.

As for the movie itself, slow paced, not anywhere enough action, when their was action it was pretty decent with the close quarters stuff in Veld (mid way through the movie) being amazing. Not grim dark like the previous DC movies it had one or two dialogues that were a bit cringy but nothing anywhere near as stupid as MARTHA and after the utter cluster fuck of a plot form B vs S it was nice to have a simple straight forward bad guy vs good guy plot.

Only really down side being it's another DC movie that ends with an utter cluster fuck of lighting, explosion, debris and carnage all taking place at night and that the action was a bit too little and a bit too spaced out and over way way to quick.

I used the term "proto-Nazis" as a moral barometer, whereby media villains who are emphatically not connected to the Third Reich in any way go on to behave as pointlessly evil as them anyway, just to jackhammer the point into the audience's faces about who to root for. For example, see SS Oberstgruppenfuhrer Tavington of His Majesty's Redcoats casually shooting unarmed wounded, innocent civilians and then locking entire villages inside churches and burning them alive in The Patriot, because apparently America in 1776 was actually the Eastern Front, 1944. So basically what I'm asking is, does the film go out of its way to showcase the horrors of war as entirely deriding from the devilish Hun? And also whether the German soldiers can fight for shit, or are just feldgrau punching bags for Wonder Woman to dispatch with ease and a quip.

Also! You snipped out my name on your reply post so I didn't actually get this as a notification, I had to go looking through the forum manually, like some sort of pre-industrial crazy person!

Gordon_4:

Dragonlayer:
I have one very important question that will determine whether or not I will give this film a chance.

Are the German soldiers portrayed as a competent and legitimate threat, or as cackling yet utterly ineffectual proto-Nazis who are going to use radioactive moon-rock super-weapons to blow up the world and exist only to be effortlessly beaten up by Wonder Woman?

Again, that's only my impression based on my first showing. I'm going again and perhaps with a more critical eye I'll pick up more but I like the idea that the movie closes on.

Dragonlayer:

Because Steve Trevor is American, and in WW1 the Americans fought Germany.

Of course, I'm still not sold on changing the setting to WW1 instead of WW2, but I've heard enough good things I'm going to give it a shot.

Dragonlayer:

Gordon_4:

Dragonlayer:
I have one very important question that will determine whether or not I will give this film a chance.

Are the German soldiers portrayed as a competent and legitimate threat, or as cackling yet utterly ineffectual proto-Nazis who are going to use radioactive moon-rock super-weapons to blow up the world and exist only to be effortlessly beaten up by Wonder Woman?

Again, that's only my impression based on my first showing. I'm going again and perhaps with a more critical eye I'll pick up more but I like the idea that the movie closes on.

Like I said, the movie is by no means perfect. Ludendorff would probably have ended up a hero of the Nazi party in the DCEU. As for her motivation to side with Entente, the first contact she had with the Germans was

For what its worth, while she does basically hand the German's their arses in the fight scenes, she's NOT dropping quips like Buffy the Vampire Slayer while she's doing it and there is little to visually distinguish the British and German troops other than their uniform. They all look haggard, tired and confused: they fight as well as they can but fact is Diana is a massive force multiplier. It would be like giving the British at Rorke's Drift the equipment of a modern infantry regiment.

Callate:
I saw it tonight, and quite enjoyed it. Solid tone, good performances, and it builds up enough "credit" to take the audience through moments that might otherwise seem mawkish or corny. There are a few bits that suffer from CG character physics, but mostly the spectacle works pretty well, and it even managed to surprise me a little a couple of times.

I'd recommend giving it a look.

I'll echo this, pretty much exactly how I felt.

I just want to add that I actually laughed a few times, in a DC movie! And at the parts of the film that I was supposed to laugh at, no less!!

I love the Wonder Woman movie, and it met my expectations. I give it a huge recommendation to DCU fans or non-fans alike. My overall feeling of the DC Universe films are this: loved Man of Steel, liked Batman V. Superman (though the directors cut makes the film more enjoyable for me), and Suicide Squad I am really mixed about. My biggest sticking point that the third movie had obvious and unnecessary edits and re-shoots. SS also made me hate Waller more than I could ever imagine.

Not a fan of DC in general but I watched it yesterday and it's legitimately good.

Nice setup, good cast, great acting...middling writing. Action scenes were well done. Still a little too much emphasis on weird camera light filters but I can get over that. Good movie on its own and will give any sequel a fair shake. I'm still not down with Justice League though. I just can't make myself give too much of a shit about the whole DC expanded universe.

Yep it's pretty good. It falls over on the ending in my opinion but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the rest of it.

Dragonlayer:
For example, see SS Oberstgruppenfuhrer Tavington of His Majesty's Redcoats casually shooting unarmed wounded, innocent civilians and then locking entire villages inside churches and burning them alive in The Patriot, because apparently America in 1776 was actually the Eastern Front, 1944.

Not wanting to derail the thread but as a historian I was compelled to add this small bit:
Tavington's character was based (loosely) on Banastre Tarleton, cavalry officer and all around asshat. Among the accusations made against him were 1) ordering his men to bayonet the bodies of the enemy for 15 minutes after a battle to ensure no survivors, 2) ordering an 8 year old's throat to be slit because the kid might reveal his cavalry's movements to the colonials, and 3) when at a British officer's soiree he was heard to claim that he had "lain more women in America than any other British Army officer." To which another officer was heard to say "Don't you mean raped more women?"

As an aside note:

I had to go looking through the forum manually, like some sort of pre-industrial crazy person!

Hey Rom, when did you come back to 21st century Earth and make an account? (please tell me that was actually the character you were referencing)

OT: I've heard a lot of good things from reviewers whose opinions and analysis I respect. I'm going to try and catch this one in the theaters.

Girlfriend wanted to see it for her birthday...she was hyped to see a female superhero movie.

It's...a fairly mediocre film, all told. The writing is middling to poor. The antagonists lack substance and personality, and the ones that appear on the surface to be interesting (such as Dr. Poison) are quickly revealed to have no depth. The penultimate villain is ludicrous...both in casting choice and visual appearance...and feels airlifted in from an older, stupider era in comic book films. The pacing is all over the map, with some sections dragging unnecessarily and others getting shoved through at breakneck speed. This leads to some major character dilemmas occurring and then being resolved in a matter of mere minutes. The music is pedestrian and generally failed to either excite or provoke emotion. The major pathos beats were largely signposted and consequentially fell flat. At times, the film veered perilously close to bog standard formula. On the flip side, it manages some light humor much MUCH better than the achingly self-conscious attempts at same in the woeful Suicide Squad.

What does elevate it is Gadot, who puts out a completely star making turn as the titular hero (it's a real word, no pun intended). She commands every scene she's in, and manages to effortlessly sell an utterly ludicrous character...the true test of any comic book film star. She's the female approximate of Chris Evans' fantastic Captain America. When the movie is successful, it's almost invariably because she's bringing emotion and texture to it through her expressive acting.

It's a performance that deserves a far better film assembled around it, frankly. Following Marvel's lead and forcing a uniform style on all these films and directors was a big mistake, and does this one no favors. Snyder's style is very flashy, very slick, very "Rule of Cool", and while there are some nicely choreographed action bits it all feels a bit too glossy and superficial. Gadot's performance by contrast feels very grounded and human, and the subject matter (the Great War and the terrible cost in human lives and suffering) merited something less glib and flashy. I'd love to see Gadot essay this character in a film like Logan...not so much as in "a film where she's old and bitter and beat to shit", but a film that isn't afraid to leave the stylistic conventions of its medium behind and concentrate on telling the best story possible.

So far I am getting the impression that the problem with this movie is that its just another Superhero movie? Nothing that truly brakes the mold?

Samtemdo8:
So far I am getting the impression that the problem with this movie is that its just another Superhero movie? Nothing that truly brakes the mold?

No, not really. The film is getting great positive reviews and the DCEU finally made a good one. (Note: I'm speaking of the majority. If you like the other DCEU movies, that's fine. More power to you.)

Now as for Wonder Woman, it is a really good movie, possibly one of DC's best live action films in a few years. It does have a few flaws (then again not every film is perfect): some of the CGI is kinda not good in a few spots, the overuse of slow motion made me annoyed after a while, some of the 3rd act is really weak especially with the final fight and the villains are underused.

But despite those flaws, this is really solid. The script is mostly good, the characters are likable and far interesting, some of the cinematography is gorgeous (mainly Diana's home), the acting is really good (I was having skepticism about Gal Gadot since I found her really dull in BvS and the trailers, but I was wrong. She's really good in this.), the chemistry between Diana and Steve is great and the film does a great job of embodying DC's philosophy with their characters. I still don't like the DCEU, but I wish they made movies just as good as this. I'd give it an 8/10.

wizzy555:
Yep it's pretty good. It falls over on the ending in my opinion but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the rest of it.

Yeah, I liked the message they were going for that Ares isn't doing this and not everyone is influenced by him. It was a cool direction and an interesting take, but nope, threw that out the window and adhered to that cliche.

BloatedGuppy:
snip

Yesssss.

Let the hate flow through you.

Nah, I'll be positive and agree that Gal Gadot came to slay. Too bad the screenwriter couldn't keep up.

This movie felt like Captain America and Thor adopted a little girl and raised it in a land covered in rain instead of sun.

I loved the movie. Also, am I the only one who feels like Wonder Woman's unbelievably kind and warm character kind of makes Captain America's character less likable? Not a LOT, but just a bit. Like Wonder Woman finding solace and positivity in the clusterfuck that was World War 1 somehow makes Captain America's earnest "don't like bullies" attitude in already-heavily-romanticized World War 2 feel cheap by comparison.

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Kolby Jack:

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Yes but this is a weakness in the story, because if Ares isn't driving the wars then the motivation against him is undermined. It makes it out that she realised that men are complicated and capable of evil themselves but she should just kill Ares anyway because he's kind of an arsehole. Some good dialogue could have saved it but it wasn't great.

Kolby Jack:
I loved the movie. Also, am I the only one who feels like Wonder Woman's unbelievably kind and warm character kind of makes Captain America's character less likable? Not a LOT, but just a bit. Like Wonder Woman finding solace and positivity in the clusterfuck that was World War 1 somehow makes Captain America's earnest "don't like bullies" attitude in already-heavily-romanticized World War 2 feel cheap by comparison.

Not at all. I thought they were both different takes on what is (surprisingly, given the medium) a refreshingly offbeat character. Earnest, forthright, driven to do the right thing. Wonder Woman's appeal came through her innocence and completely unvarnished emotion and desire to help. There was a purity of purpose and warmth of character that is very beguiling. Character arc insists she'll have lost that post Episode 1, and you wonder how the actress will be able to handle that paradigm shift (as her appearance in BvS wasn't anywhere near as involving).

Evans' Captain America, on the other hand, seems very beaten down. There's still a fundamental iron bar of conviction at the heart of him, but he's wrapped it up in layers of disillusionment and sadness. I actually find his performance in that role to be one of the 3-4 best of the entire modern era of superhero films. He managed to make an entirely uninteresting character fascinating. In the hands of a less nuanced actor Captain America could have been a boring Boy Scout, always piping about freedom and the American Way while biffing baddies on the chin.

The girlfriend and I went to an early showing on Thursday evening and we both loved it. I'm the comics nerd of the two of us but through osmosis she's gotten pretty interested and has become a pretty big Wonder Woman fan.

There are definitely some problems with the movie- the third act is definitely the weakest and the climactic battle with the big bad is a little disappointing. It's like they edited in a scene from BvS into this film what with all the CGI environments and flashy effects.

All of this can be forgiven though thanks to the casting and writing. Gadot and Pine are great on screen together- completely selling the (let's be honest) ridiculous origin and parts of the Wonder Woman character. Gadot plays the fish-out-of-water bits wonderfully. The ice cream scene (reminiscent of something I've seen in the DC animated movies) was so charming and they even find a way to bring the sexual themes and lesbianism that are sometimes a part of the character into the film in a way that was funny and a neat call out to fans.

Honestly, I get very emotional about super hero stuff and I'm a little sappy, but the first big action set-piece in Europe made me shed a tear. Seeing a genuinely and unerringly moral Wonder Woman leading the charge into the meat grinder that is WWI and doing what is right no matter what fucking GOT me. Sitting next to my girlfriend and all of the other women in the theater who have been waiting for this movie for so long only added to it. Plus I was just so happy to finally have a DC movie that was treating the characters accurately and with respect. I have said a lot of shit about the DCEU movies but at the end of the day I want them to be great and I finally feel like there's hope for these movies. Bravo Patty Jenkins and co.

wizzy555:

Kolby Jack:

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Yes but this is a weakness in the story, because if Ares isn't driving the wars then the motivation against him is undermined. It makes it out that she realised that men are complicated and capable of evil themselves but she should just kill Ares anyway because he's kind of an arsehole. Some good dialogue could have saved it but it wasn't great.

I got the impression that Ares was just feeding her some shit with that line. I mean he was clearly manipulating events on all of the sides of the conflict. For him to manipulate all the major players, and then try and step back and say "hey, I didn't have anything to do with this" is just silly. Our own real world legal system would still consider that type of behavior criminal, so he's far from innocent in the events. And also, there was that bit after she kills him, where the German soldiers all take off their masks and helmets and look around, as if they just woke from some dream. So I think they were implying that he in fact, WAS manipulating them directly. I mean, if the war was simply due to "the evil in mens' hearts", then why would the Germans suddenly stop all conflict with the 5 people who attacked their base.

Remember, when she killed the red herring, she looked around, expecting to see the soldiers snap out of their state, as if waking from a dream. But that's exactly what DOES happen when she kills the real Ares. It's very apparent, as they cut between like 5 scenes of the soldiers doing the "whoa, where am I? What's going on?" kind of reaction. Even to the point of hugging the guy they were just fighting a minute ago? Sorry but if the true evil was all in their hearts, this wouldn't have happened. So some of it had to be Ares' influence.

Happyninja42:

I got the impression that Ares was just feeding her some shit with that line. I mean he was clearly manipulating events on all of the sides of the conflict. For him to manipulate all the major players, and then try and step back and say "hey, I didn't have anything to do with this" is just silly. Our own real world legal system would still consider that type of behavior criminal, so he's far from innocent in the events. And also, there was that bit after she kills him, where the German soldiers all take off their masks and helmets and look around, as if they just woke from some dream. So I think they were implying that he in fact, WAS manipulating them directly. I mean, if the war was simply due to "the evil in mens' hearts", then why would the Germans suddenly stop all conflict with the 5 people who attacked their base.

Remember, when she killed the red herring, she looked around, expecting to see the soldiers snap out of their state, as if waking from a dream. But that's exactly what DOES happen when she kills the real Ares. It's very apparent, as they cut between like 5 scenes of the soldiers doing the "whoa, where am I? What's going on?" kind of reaction. Even to the point of hugging the guy they were just fighting a minute ago? Sorry but if the true evil was all in their hearts, this wouldn't have happened. So some of it had to be Ares' influence.

That scene was pretty confusing.

You could take it as Ares controlling them, but then that would mean that Ares was lying, and that one of the major themes of the movie was bullshit. Which is just dumbass writing. If they really intended to do that, then my opinion of this movie would turn sour real quick.

I like to take it as the Germans just being glad to be alive. Like that scene in Battlefield 1's prologue, except not as well done.

wizzy555:

Kolby Jack:

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Yes but this is a weakness in the story, because if Ares isn't driving the wars then the motivation against him is undermined. It makes it out that she realised that men are complicated and capable of evil themselves but she should just kill Ares anyway because he's kind of an arsehole. Some good dialogue could have saved it but it wasn't great.

Did you miss the part where as soon as she turned down Ares' offer he decided to kill her? She killed him by directing his own attack back onto him. He was the aggressor in their fight entirely.

Also, he was a bit more than just "kind of an asshole" if you think about it. He was the primary architect of the armistice that ends World War 1. If you know your history, you know that that armistice was basically what caused WORLD WAR 2. Ares' line that he was not the god of war but instead the "god of truth" was (ironically) a lie. He clearly had a hand in the war, even if he didn't have to MAKE anyone start it.

BloatedGuppy:

Kolby Jack:
I loved the movie. Also, am I the only one who feels like Wonder Woman's unbelievably kind and warm character kind of makes Captain America's character less likable? Not a LOT, but just a bit. Like Wonder Woman finding solace and positivity in the clusterfuck that was World War 1 somehow makes Captain America's earnest "don't like bullies" attitude in already-heavily-romanticized World War 2 feel cheap by comparison.

Not at all. I thought they were both different takes on what is (surprisingly, given the medium) a refreshingly offbeat character. Earnest, forthright, driven to do the right thing. Wonder Woman's appeal came through her innocence and completely unvarnished emotion and desire to help. There was a purity of purpose and warmth of character that is very beguiling. Character arc insists she'll have lost that post Episode 1, and you wonder how the actress will be able to handle that paradigm shift (as her appearance in BvS wasn't anywhere near as involving).

Evans' Captain America, on the other hand, seems very beaten down. There's still a fundamental iron bar of conviction at the heart of him, but he's wrapped it up in layers of disillusionment and sadness. I actually find his performance in that role to be one of the 3-4 best of the entire modern era of superhero films. He managed to make an entirely uninteresting character fascinating. In the hands of a less nuanced actor Captain America could have been a boring Boy Scout, always piping about freedom and the American Way while biffing baddies on the chin.

I'm not really referring to Cap's later movies, those are fine. I just feel like First Avenger Cap never really earned his earnestness and good guy nature. We never really see WHY he is as nice as he is. He's basically Captain America from the first moment he's on screen, just without the enhancements. Yes, we see him getting beat up by a bully, but speaking from experience that doesn't turn most people into a brave boy scout; quite the opposite, in fact. Wonder Woman's naivety and goodness are readily apparent from her isolated, peaceful upbringing.

Moreover, Wonder Woman's main battle is with the concept of human evil itself (and Ares), whereas Cap's is with... super Nazis? Who are never shown doing anything worse than the actual Nazis did. Hydra became much more compelling later, at least.

Bob_McMillan:

That scene was pretty confusing.

You could take it as Ares controlling them, but then that would mean that Ares was lying,

I see no reason that he wouldn't lie. I mean, he said at one point "I'm not the God of War, I'm the God of Truth", which you know, if that's not true, and seeing as Ares is the god of WAR, that means he was lying. :) So I don't see any reason to believe everything the manipulating god behind the scenes said.

Bob_McMillan:
and that one of the major themes of the movie was bullshit. Which is just dumbass writing. If they really intended to do that, then my opinion of this movie would turn sour real quick.

Which major theme of the film would be bullshit if Ares was lying? The fact that humans are willing to fight each other doesn't exclude the idea that Ares might be directly manipulating their baser urges to cause conflict where their might not have been before. Sort of like how being really drunk might compel someone to actually start a fist fight, when normally they would never do such a thing. Think of it as him breathing on the embers of their own anger, until it becomes a fire. Sure, the ember was already there, but that doesn't mean he didn't help it along.

Bob_McMillan:
I like to take it as the Germans just being glad to be alive. Like that scene in Battlefield 1's prologue, except not as well done.

Never saw that scene, but I still think it's an indication that those troops at least, were directly under his control. I mean, it's such a marked difference in behavior. Fighting tooth and nail while Ares lives, then when he dies, they all look around like they just woke up from a dream, shocked and surprised, and hugging each other (including the people they were shooting at 5 seconds before). That's just too sharp of a contrast in behavior for me to think it's "we're just glad to be alive" reaction, and more "wow, my head is suddenly clear of this anger, why the fuck am I shooting guns at people?" kind of thing. Sure it might not be, but that's what I take from it.

My big question though, is about WW's mom on the island. What was that shit about "we can't let her know the truth, if she knows the truth he will find her sooner" ?? That made zero sense given what actually happens in the film. He even says that he knew who she was the moment he saw her. So her ignorance didn't shield her from Ares. He saw through her immediately. So what type of protection would ignorance provide her? That made zero sense to me.

Was there anything of this movie that confirms all those rumors that the movie is a mess?

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