Brexit Negotiations

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Zontar:

You really aren't aware of the things Antifa does do you? Rioting is just the stuff we get flashy videos of, you don't see the random acts of violence outside those events (mainly because randomly recording someone throwing a Molotov cocktail through a store window at 2am just isn't a thing people will do), and that's before we even get to the fact that their goal is openly and explicitly to commit acts of terrorism that if only a tenth where even attempted the crisis we faced after the FLQ would look like nothing. The only positive out of that I can think of (apart from Antifa being crushed, but that goes without saying) is the fact I'd get to experience seeing a tank roll down an otherwise empty Saint-Catherine's instead of reading about it with a photo of a tank that is not one of our own that was not taken in Quebec in a textbook made by someone who didn't even bother going beyond a Google search for an image of a tank.

Political violence is not the same thing as terrorism. That shouldn't really need to be said.

On a side-note, please divide your sentences. The syntax in the last sentence there is appalling.

Zontar:

Given how the leader of the party saw his daughter arrested due to her actions while a member of Antifa during the student riots of 2012, and given the fact that the party's leadership openly endorses Antifa and its tactics, it's like trying to separate the Nazis from the Brownshirts.

Uhrm... no, it's not. The Brownshirts were Nazis. The QS, on the other hand, is not Antifa, and none of these actions are actually connected to the Party.

Is the Conservative Party responsible for the actions of the Saudi Arabian government, by the way? There's open and declared support there.

This is political point-scoring at its utter, utter worst.

Zontar:
No political point-scoring is pretending that in defiance of the very meaning of the words they are somehow not Nazi because unlike 99% of the other policies that overlap with the Nazis they are pro-LGBT instead of anti-LGBT, that Antifa are not terrorist despite fitting literally all criteria or that the explicit connection the two have doesn't exist just because they happen to be in the same wing of politics as the person trying to claim all this.

You think I'm saying this merely because the QS and Antifa are both left-wing? Absolute nonsense. I don't support Antifa; they commit political violence. That is not the same thing as terrorism, as anybody with the tiniest understanding of the terms will tell you.

Also, the QS policies do not overlap with the Nazis. They simply don't. The notion could, quite frankly, only come from a position of ignorance. It's a ludicrous statement to anybody with a whit of education on the subject.

Silvanus:
Political violence is not the same thing as terrorism. That shouldn't really need to be said.

image

Uhrm... no, it's not. The Brownshirts were Nazis. The QS, on the other hand, is not Antifa, and none of these actions are actually connected to the Party.

Many of them are members of the party and the party openly endorses their actions. They are the Brownshirts of the QS in every way that matters from a functional standpoint, and the lack of a piece of paper officially declaring them the militant wing of the party is immaterial as it changes nothing in terms of the situation on the streets.

You think I'm saying this merely because the QS and Antifa are both left-wing? Absolute nonsense. I don't support Antifa; they commit political violence. That is not the same thing as terrorism, as anybody with the tiniest understanding of the terms will tell you.

Also, the QS policies do not overlap with the Nazis. They simply don't. The notion could, quite frankly, only come from a position of ignorance. It's a ludicrous statement to anybody with a whit of education on the subject.

On the contrary, the position stems from the fact that 1) they have a completely identical economic policy, 2) both are violently antisemitic, 3) both target specific minorities, and 4) both want those targeted minorities deported due to the subversion they perceive them to be responsible for. The fact that they've changed the specifics of which groups are the victims and which are the ones responsible, and the fact their form of national socialism is civic instead of ethno based, doesn't change the fact they are ideologically more aligned with the Nazis then they are the socialism of Eastern Europe or the not-as-much-as-Americans-claim socialism of Northern Europe.

Are they completely identical? No, of course not, not even the allies of the Nazis in Italy and Hungary where such, but is the comparison valid? Damn right it is.

Though then again maybe my perception is skewed due to the fact I'm part of not one but two groups they want deported to Ontario when they go through with their UDI (that will never happen due to the fact that even if they win a UDI would see local, provincial, federal and military police act to arrest them and possibly even the 22nd join in)

Zontar:

image

image

Using pictures in lieu of argument is fun!

Zontar:

Many of them are members of the party and the party openly endorses their actions. They are the Brownshirts of the QS in every way that matters from a functional standpoint, and the lack of a piece of paper officially declaring them the militant wing of the party is immaterial as it changes nothing in terms of the situation on the streets.

The people who committed the acts are members of the QS? You don't actually know that, do you? There's not a fucking shred of evidence of that.

You're just throwing the accusation about because it's a helpful way to smear people you politically disagree with.

Zontar:

On the contrary, the position stems from the fact that 1) they have a completely identical economic policy,

Please, tell me which economic policies they share with the Nazis. I've been waiting for quite a while for some specifics, but they don't seem to be forthcoming; just rhetorical comparison after rhetorical comparison, without any detail.

Zontar:

2) both are violently antisemitic, 3) both target specific minorities, and 4) both want those targeted minorities deported due to the subversion they perceive them to be responsible for. The fact that they've changed the specifics of which groups are the victims and which are the ones responsible, and the fact their form of national socialism is civic instead of ethno based, doesn't change the fact they are ideologically more aligned with the Nazis then they are the socialism of Eastern Europe or the not-as-much-as-Americans-claim socialism of Northern Europe.

Citation required on (2), (3) and (4). I'm not well versed in Canadian politics, every source I can find seems to be exclusively available in French, and... well, frankly, I don't believe you, so I'm going to need something solid and trustworthy.

Silvanus:
Using pictures in lieu of argument is fun!

It's not an argument, it's a demonstration that the definition of X is X, even if you don't want it to be.

The people who committed the acts are members of the QS? You don't actually know that, do you? There's not a fucking shred of evidence of that.

The daughter of the party's leader, who is a card carrying member of the party, was one of hundreds of card carrying members arrested during a single event during the 2012 student riots (at which thousands where arrested at least once due to their criminal activities). We do, in fact, know that the connection is there, unless for whatever reason the police, government, the judiciary and the party itself are all conspiring to make false statements about the party to make it look bad.

Please, tell me which economic policies they share with the Nazis. I've been waiting for quite a while for some specifics, but they don't seem to be forthcoming; just rhetorical comparison after rhetorical comparison, without any detail.

Well there's the destruction of capitalism, the nationalisation of all industry, banks and financial centres, all unions falling under the purview of the state for starters. Though for whatever reason people seem to forget that the Nazis did all this and seem to be under the illusion that an explicitly anti-capitalist socialist system of government was anything but.

Citation required on (2), (3) and (4). I'm not well versed in Canadian politics, every source I can find seems to be exclusively available in French, and... well, frankly, I don't believe you, so I'm going to need something solid and trustworthy.

Well I'm afraid I can't help you then because French is all you'll get out of it.

Maybe the fact that of the 3 users who have posted in this thread who are from here 2 of them are in agreement about calling them as such being justified while the last holds the opinion that they're not good people but the comparison isn't justified. I know that's a fallacy but there's nothing else one can point out if you aren't willing to go through French articles.

Zontar:
French

I'm going to send you an assembly kit for a product whose instructions are only in Japanese, and I'm not going to even tell you what it is you're building. Any attempts to use the internet to seek help or get help from another person, and you are immediately disqualified. Your goal is to assemble properly the device without anything but these directions you can't understand...and of course tools...so that you understand that telling someone to rifle through a bunch of articles that only appear in French is unreasonable.

Or you could find something in english that he can pour over, instead, even if it means you have to back your claims from some other angle.

A few years from now the Brits will be begging to return to the EU. There's only one country that benefits from Brexit and EU instability, and it ain't the UK. It's Russia.

Zontar:
Many of them are members...

Yes, yes.

You think a small rabble engaging in civil disorder are the equivalent of the brownshirts, and that's because you haven't spent the slightest minute checking up on what the borwnshirts et al. actually did, so have no sense of proportion whatsoever.

Now kindly take this bullshit somewhere else and stop clogging up a file with something useful to discuss on Brexit. If you want to fling mud at someone you don't like in Quebec, find or make an appropriate thread.

FalloutJack:

Zontar:
French

I'm going to send you an assembly kit for a product whose instructions are only in Japanese, and I'm not going to even tell you what it is you're building. Any attempts to use the internet to seek help or get help from another person, and you are immediately disqualified. Your goal is to assemble properly the device without anything but these directions you can't understand...and of course tools...so that you understand that telling someone to rifle through a bunch of articles that only appear in French is unreasonable.

Or you could find something in english that he can pour over, instead, even if it means you have to back your claims from some other angle.

While his and realJeremyP's position on QS is patently ridiculous, I can't really blame him for not being able to find information in English on the topic of either the party itself or of Ms.Khadir's misdoings is perfectly normal. After all, the party is a typical socdem party with nothing especially noteworthy going on for them, nothing like the French Canadian Nazis they describe, even though yes, one of the party leaders' daughter was caught rioting, and they found distasteful art in her room.

It's reactionary scapegoatism on the right trying to unite against the Canadian French minority, and it's absurd and divisive. Most of this BS will often come from people in the Prairies that have never stepped in Quebec too, adding an extra layer of crap on the shit sundae that are anti-francophone positions in Canada. (Which, thankfully, are far from the majority, even on the right)

Sonmi:

It's reactionary scapegoatism on the right trying to unite against the Canadian French minority, and it's absurd and divisive. Most of this BS will often come from people in the Prairies that have never stepped in Quebec too, adding an extra layer of crap on the shit sundae that are anti-francophone positions in Canada. (Which, thankfully, are far from the majority, even on the right)

Speaking of the right attempting to galvanize behind a cause based on antagonism against a minority in an anglophone country, lets get back to the North shall we?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/tory-dup-1bn-payment-needs-parliaments-approval-after-gina-miller-challenge

The coalition looks to be challenged based on its legitimacy and being tantamount to bribery, and we haven't even got to the breaches of Good Friday yet. And we're no more the wiser on what the UK wants to begin with after all this time, as the Tories have given no detail whatsoever so far onnwhat the plan is.

As someone living not too far away from what may end up being the main border between the UK and EU, I do find this all to be quite annoying.

Zontar:

It's not an argument, it's a demonstration that the definition of X is X, even if you don't want it to be.

A demonstration, right. You know, of course, that a dictionary is not supposed to be the definitive guide by which complex political concepts are understood; they have space enough to include perhaps a paragraph, to describe concepts which have been fleshed out over decades, or sometimes centuries.

Every political ideology since time immemorial has seen people commit some act of violence or another on its behalf. Almost every political organisation that has attained a certain size has seen the same, too, left or right or centrist, extreme or moderate.

Are all these organisations terrorist? Or are we to understand a certain sense of proportion and context?

Zontar:

The daughter of the party's leader, who is a card carrying member of the party, was one of hundreds of card carrying members arrested during a single event during the 2012 student riots (at which thousands where arrested at least once due to their criminal activities). We do, in fact, know that the connection is there, unless for whatever reason the police, government, the judiciary and the party itself are all conspiring to make false statements about the party to make it look bad.

She was at a riot, okay. And did she kill anybody? Did she maim or personally assault anybody?

This is how guilt-by-association functions, and why it falls down at the first hurdle: it's unsustainable. If we run with this standard, everybody becomes guilty.

Zontar:

Well there's the destruction of capitalism, the nationalisation of all industry, banks and financial centres, all unions falling under the purview of the state for starters. Though for whatever reason people seem to forget that the Nazis did all this and seem to be under the illusion that an explicitly anti-capitalist socialist system of government was anything but.

The Nazis opposed global, free-market capitalism, though they encouraged and supported big business under other structures. Why do you think they did this? Do you think they were motivated by a redistributive impulse, an impulse to create an equal society, as socialism is?

No, they aimed explicitly to create a system of rigid, unbreakable hierarchy, in which the workers receive no improvement to their working conditions. They destroyed unions, as monarchic or capitalist systems did before and after them, and did not replace them with anything to serve workers' collective interests. The Nazis hunted and murdered members of the social-democratic and communist parties, as well as unionists, explicitly because of those connections to workers' institutions.

You are bringing up the most superficial, simplistic notion of Nazi methodology, without any real understanding of their end goals (hierarchy over egalitarianism, a vicious opposition to equality of human life), which were at the strongest of odds with social democracy.

Zontar:

Well I'm afraid I can't help you then because French is all you'll get out of it.

Maybe the fact that of the 3 users who have posted in this thread who are from here 2 of them are in agreement about calling them as such being justified while the last holds the opinion that they're not good people but the comparison isn't justified. I know that's a fallacy but there's nothing else one can point out if you aren't willing to go through French articles.

Willing? I can't understand French. I think it's reasonable for me not to have to learn a language in order to argue this point.

If we're discussing actual, factual terrorism, as you claim, then surely there are news reports to corroborate. These are absolutely colossal accusations, after all.

That this thread has been so easily derailed speaks volumes on the lack of substance from the conservatives in regards to their Brexit plans.

Off topic, I prefer the Irish name for Brexit:

England -> Sasana
Out -> Amach

Sasamach!

Ninjamedic:
That this thread has been so easily derailed speaks volumes on the lack of substance from the conservatives in regards to their Brexit plans.

Our North American kids wanted more attention... again. Bring up Nazis and bam. No one cares about us Brits.

Well, consider this political question instead. Ruth Davidson, in a recent New Statesman article, regards negotiations where both sides state different attitudes to the press as normal and deals are typically made in the wee hours just before the deadline. The question: is she right in this case?

I say no because there are two deals to be made, one after the other, and a last minute first will leave no time for agreeing and ratifying the second. The businessmen and forex markets are interested in the second one, single market access, or rather its lack, and pound sterling will go through the floor. The first will result in customs union with ECJ jurisdiction, keeping the DUP happy but pissing off the hard Leavers. Businessmen, forex markets and hard Leavers pissed off counts as a failed deal as far as I'm concerned.

Now, the EU can extend the treaty termination deadline but each country must agree and I can see too many saying "You've had two years." Trade talks could become simultaneous but I can't see the EU risking Davis agreeing to a trade deal at the last minute but walking out of the divorce bill to claim that as victory and think he can win another general election when the DUP crashes the government.

Ninjamedic:
That this thread has been so easily derailed speaks volumes on the lack of substance from the conservatives in regards to their Brexit plans.

Honestly, I think Hammond, the Chancellor, is probably right when he says the UK will seek an intermediate transition phase very much like the status quo.

The negotiations are partly about grandstanding to the UK population and seeing what (if anything) they can extract from the EU with various prodding and pushing, and when they inevitably fail to get anything close to their fantasies, they'll default to a EFTA style position so they can plan it all out in more time over the coming years.

One thing the Tories really have to worry about is their reputation. Lots of people vote Tory despite thinking they are morally dirty because of the (dubiously deserved) received wisdom that they are better at running the economy. If Brexit - which they are overseeing - is a screw-up, it will thus destroy a major plank that wins them votes, and they may end up in the doldrums for a generation. After all, who votes for the party that loses on both the moral and pragmatic levels?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-says-deal-is-off-if-tory-promise-of-1bn-breaks-down-1.3217270

Parasondox:

Ninjamedic:
That this thread has been so easily derailed speaks volumes on the lack of substance from the conservatives in regards to their Brexit plans.

Our North American kids wanted more attention... again. Bring up Nazis and bam. No one cares about us Brits.

You all can't control your kids any more than you could hold onto France.

Agema:

Ninjamedic:
That this thread has been so easily derailed speaks volumes on the lack of substance from the conservatives in regards to their Brexit plans.

Honestly, I think Hammond, the Chancellor, is probably right when he says the UK will seek an intermediate transition phase very much like the status quo.

The negotiations are partly about grandstanding to the UK population and seeing what (if anything) they can extract from the EU with various prodding and pushing, and when they inevitably fail to get anything close to their fantasies, they'll default to a EFTA style position so they can plan it all out in more time over the coming years.

How long do you think until we'll have a coherent line from the Tories if that's the case? Can you see them keeping up the appearance of challenging the EU until the last minute?

Ninjamedic:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-says-deal-is-off-if-tory-promise-of-1bn-breaks-down-1.3217270

Parasondox:

Ninjamedic:
That this thread has been so easily derailed speaks volumes on the lack of substance from the conservatives in regards to their Brexit plans.

Our North American kids wanted more attention... again. Bring up Nazis and bam. No one cares about us Brits.

You all can't control your kids any more than you could hold onto France.

Asking for a divorce wasn't easy. I mean, half of us wanted to stay in the 40plus years marriage and the other half wanted to leave. The latter won and now we are in a mess pretending we will still get easy access to the villa south of Spain. Now our kids just don't respect us anymore. Then again one of our kid became an attention whore with their new orange highlights no one likes. I mean, honey, You need to listen to mother and lose the old man orange. People are looking and talking behind your back.

Parasondox:
Then again one of our kid became an attention whore with their new orange highlights no one likes. I mean, honey, You need to listen to mother and lose the old man orange. People are looking and talking behind your back.

Well you had years to get off yer arses and do some parenting, this is what happens! Orange highlights, insisting they're not Irish despite living in fucking Ireland and believing their under attack by letting Irish language signs appear, rather than just getting their fingers out, finishing that degree, and this metaphor has been thoroughly beaten into the ground so I think this has been a good exchange!

Ninjamedic:

Parasondox:
Then again one of our kid became an attention whore with their new orange highlights no one likes. I mean, honey, You need to listen to mother and lose the old man orange. People are looking and talking behind your back.

Well you had years to get off yer arses and do some parenting, this is what happens! Orange highlights, insisting they're not Irish despite living in fucking Ireland and believing their under attack by letting Irish language signs appear, rather than just getting their fingers out, finishing that degree, and this metaphor has been thoroughly beaten into the ground so I think this has been a good exchange!

Irish? No no not you. Our other disgrace of a child. The USofA. They are the disappoint and momma still remembers what they did with our tea...

Yeah points been beaten to death by me also.

So, Brexit... the Tories fucking us over, amiright?

Parasondox:
Irish? No no not you. Our other disgrace of a child. The USofA. They are the disappoint and momma still remembers what they did with our tea...

Yeah points been beaten to death by me also.

So, Brexit... the Tories fucking us over, amiright?

I don't think anyone of the Tories is really brave enough to ever admit that they have no clue how to conclude the Brexit talks. So they will do the easy thing and try to hide it until the 2 years are over and then blame the EU for reaching o deal.

Satinavian:

Parasondox:
Irish? No no not you. Our other disgrace of a child. The USofA. They are the disappoint and momma still remembers what they did with our tea...

Yeah points been beaten to death by me also.

So, Brexit... the Tories fucking us over, amiright?

I don't think anyone of the Tories is really brave enough to ever admit that they have no clue how to conclude the Brexit talks. So they will do the easy thing and try to hide it until the 2 years are over and then blame the EU for reaching o deal.

Yeah true. They will also get the newspapers, the right wing papers, to back them up and have some eye catching headlines and one sided articles about how the EU are the bad guys (cue the Daily Mail calling the EU the new Nazi) and then do their but to pretend everything will be okay. Yaaaaaaaaaay!!

Parasondox:

Ninjamedic:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-says-deal-is-off-if-tory-promise-of-1bn-breaks-down-1.3217270

Parasondox:

Our North American kids wanted more attention... again. Bring up Nazis and bam. No one cares about us Brits.

You all can't control your kids any more than you could hold onto France.

Asking for a divorce wasn't easy. I mean, half of us wanted to stay in the 40plus years marriage and the other half wanted to leave. The latter won and now we are in a mess pretending we will still get easy access to the villa south of Spain. Now our kids just don't respect us anymore. Then again one of our kid became an attention whore with their new orange highlights no one likes. I mean, honey, You need to listen to mother and lose the old man orange. People are looking and talking behind your back.

I hate the divorce metaphor. It's more akin to a child packing some crisps and a teddy bear in a bindle made from a pillowcase and declaring they'll run away from home.

Parasondox:
Irish? No no not you. Our other disgrace of a child. The USofA.

To be fair, Ireland is not so much the UK's child as it is the UK's ex-spouse that escaped an abusive, forced marriage.

Ninjamedic:
How long do you think until we'll have a coherent line from the Tories if that's the case? Can you see them keeping up the appearance of challenging the EU until the last minute?

Potentially, yes. They'll talk tough to play to the UK population about certain points. Then mostly concede those points to the EU and talk tough about the next points to be arrnaged. Then they'll mostly concede those too and talk tough about the next, and so on. This way, they can posture for how hard they battled for British interests despite ending up with a deal that could have been signed easily, co-operatively, and rancour-free.

Alternatively, they might realise that constantly acting like they're going to beat the EU but hardly ever doing so makes them look unrealsitic and incompetent, and they'll use less hostile and oppositional rhetoric.

Adam Jensen:
A few years from now the Brits will be begging to return to the EU. There's only one country that benefits from Brexit and EU instability, and it ain't the UK. It's Russia.

It wouldn't surprise me if the conservatives try to include some "review referendum" set within ten years after we leave, as part of the negotiation package.

Seems like the British gouvernment is again fighting with itself. Boris Johnson pressuring May and fighting David Norgrove and Amber Rudd while being backed by Michael Gove.

The 350 million claim is back.
Olliver Robbins, the head of the Department for Exiting the European Union is stepping down.

Ok, i don't live in the UK and i really don't know how much of that is significant, but from the outside it looks again like incompetence. And like not getting enywhere with the negotiations.

Satinavian:
Seems like the British gouvernment is again fighting with itself. Boris Johnson pressuring May and fighting David Norgrove and Amber Rudd while being backed by Michael Gove.

The 350 million claim is back.
Olliver Robbins, the head of the Department for Exiting the European Union is stepping down.

Ok, i don't live in the UK and i really don't know how much of that is significant, but from the outside it looks again like incompetence. And like not getting enywhere with the negotiations.

Slight addition; Oliver Robbins will be stepping right back up towards May as her EU advisor. These people leading the negotiations are incredibly worrying. I see no positive outcome at all from this. Not from lack of trying either. There is a popular petition on the government website however.
It's about as much input as the public can hope to get right now, in all its' meagreority.

Xsjadoblayde:
There is a popular petition on the government website however.
It's about as much input as the public can hope to get right now, in all its' meagreority.

Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

inu-kun:

Xsjadoblayde:
There is a popular petition on the government website however.
It's about as much input as the public can hope to get right now, in all its' meagreority.

Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

Gotta love the snark from people who don't have to live with literally any of the fallout from this and couldn't care less about those who do.

Xsjadoblayde:

inu-kun:

Xsjadoblayde:
There is a popular petition on the government website however.
It's about as much input as the public can hope to get right now, in all its' meagreority.

Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

Gotta love the snark from people who don't have to live with literally any of the fallout from this and couldn't care less about those who do.

It's all about saying "screw you" to those liberals. The fact that people, even themselves, might harmed by the actions taken doesn't even factor into the equation. See poorer Americans in red states who voted for Donald Trump as an example.

inu-kun:
Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

Let me quote the current Secretary of State for Brexit, David Davis:

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

Which makes it fascinating that hardcore Brexiters, Davis included, are dead set against giving the public any opportunity to express a change of mind.

In many ways, a "deal on the table" referendum is the best referendum to have. None of the bullshit, fantasy land, have your cake and eat it argumentation. Everyone can see we get this or we get that. After that, not letting the public see the situation and decide that the "deal" and "no deal" leave options are both inferior to staying in is not just undemocratic... it's idiotic.

Satinavian:
Seems like the British gouvernment is again fighting with itself. Boris Johnson pressuring May and fighting David Norgrove and Amber Rudd while being backed by Michael Gove.

The UK is currently run by arseholes, and its people are the ones that get defecated on.

Avnger:
See poorer Americans in red states who voted for Donald Trump as an example.

Do we have to bring US internal politics into every thread? Aren't there enough threads to get your digs in as it is?

Back on topic, no disagreement with Agema so far, so I'll update the Irish angle (in my opinion at least) here:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/leo-varadkar-set-to-block-next-stage-of-brexit-talks-806207.html

For the record, Fine Gael is effectively the Irish Tory party for all intents and purposes, so for them to take a strident stance against the UK's current behavior should be telling of the country's current thoughts in regards to the carry on in the Brexit aftermath.

The Brits think they can just force their obligations to the border and trade onto us, while offering no thoughts to the long term situation or the North or partition outside of lip service to their Orange/DUP allegiances.

Agema:
In many ways, a "deal on the table" referendum is the best referendum to have. None of the bullshit, fantasy land, have your cake and eat it argumentation. Everyone can see we get this or we get that.

And it removes any possible inclination the EU would have to negotiate earnestly and in good faith. And they would probably still fuck it up and act like such arrogant bellends that we would leave out of spite. See Juncker.

Avnger:
It's all about saying "screw you" to those liberals. The fact that people, even themselves, might harmed by the actions taken doesn't even factor into the equation. See poorer Americans in red states who voted for Donald Trump as an example.

Of course, it's all about you Liberals. There's no possible scenario where people are willing to vote to make themselves poorer to avoid a political situation they personally don't agree with.

And the fact that you seem to think everything comes down to money is a rather depressing indicator of modern politics.

Xsjadoblayde:

inu-kun:

Xsjadoblayde:
There is a popular petition on the government website however.
It's about as much input as the public can hope to get right now, in all its' meagreority.

Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

Gotta love the snark from people who don't have to live with literally any of the fallout from this and couldn't care less about those who do.

That's all he and others like him have left. Snark, ignorance and "edge" that seems to be blunt. Let's hope Israel aren't going through some shitty situations at the moment.

Agema:

inu-kun:
Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

Let me quote the current Secretary of State for Brexit, David Davis:

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

Which makes it fascinating that hardcore Brexiters, Davis included, are dead set against giving the public any opportunity to express a change of mind.

In many ways, a "deal on the table" referendum is the best referendum to have. None of the bullshit, fantasy land, have your cake and eat it argumentation. Everyone can see we get this or we get that. After that, not letting the public see the situation and decide that the "deal" and "no deal" leave options are both inferior to staying in is not just undemocratic... it's idiotic.

Satinavian:
Seems like the British gouvernment is again fighting with itself. Boris Johnson pressuring May and fighting David Norgrove and Amber Rudd while being backed by Michael Gove.

The UK is currently run by arseholes, and its people are the ones that get defecated on.

There was also Farage saying if they only got 48% leave they'd keep fighting but anyone on the remain side is apparently antidemocratic for wanting another referendum.

CheetoDust:
There was also Farage saying if they only got 48% leave they'd keep fighting but anyone on the remain side is apparently antidemocratic for wanting another referendum.

Farage would have been undemocratic for suggesting it. Your point?

Agema:

inu-kun:
Gotta love the number 1 choice in it.

Let me quote the current Secretary of State for Brexit, David Davis:

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

Which makes it fascinating that hardcore Brexiters, Davis included, are dead set against giving the public any opportunity to express a change of mind.

In many ways, a "deal on the table" referendum is the best referendum to have. None of the bullshit, fantasy land, have your cake and eat it argumentation. Everyone can see we get this or we get that. After that, not letting the public see the situation and decide that the "deal" and "no deal" leave options are both inferior to staying in is not just undemocratic... it's idiotic.

But then you need to give make another poll in another 2 years if to do Brexit again. The thing that I find annoying is that it's damn obvious if the Remain camp will win any talks about doing another Brexit referendum will be taken as heresy. Maybe doing the best out 3 is better.

It's not "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy." but rather "If a democracy will not allow results until they get what is desired by a single camp then it's not a democracy".

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