Trump recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel

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TheIronRuler:
There's so much stuff I can't figure out the reason as to why Trump decided to do this. It seems like a decision made for gaining some benefit inside the US, not abroad.

This guy asks the right questions.

Thing is, it is hard to see who within the US would approve so much that it is worth angering so many people. And before anybody says "the far right", bear in mind that a large portion of them are massive anti-semites, so probably not.

There are a few scenarios I can imagine:
- Lobbying - some backroom dealings getting Trump to do this. Question is, who would want to lobby for this and why? If it is the government of Israel, which I kind of doubt, what would they have to offer in return? I can't see many other people with money and power being that concerned about this, on the other hand. Unless you want to get super-paranoid and claim that it's foreign influence to intentionally weaken the US global position.
- Ego - Trump wanting to leave his mark from his time in office. Because even once he leaves, it's difficult to move the embassy back out of Jerusalem without having it come across as a blatant slight to Israel. He leaves his successor in a difficult spot.
- Spite - What with all the failures regarding his travel bans and other plans, this is an easy move to piss off the people who are pissing him off.
- A genuine belief that this is the right thing to do. Probably through pig-headed ignorance and jumping to conclusions.

I dunno. But sales of US flags has sky-rocketed, so that's something.

Catnip1024:
Thing is, it is hard to see who within the US would approve so much that it is worth angering so many people. And before anybody says "the far right", bear in mind that a large portion of them are massive anti-semites, so probably not.

Actually, it's not that difficult. Trump is once more pandering to evangelical extremists like the kind he surrounded himself with (e.g. Robert Jefress). This will sound very irrational to dudes like you and I, but the motive here is that these religious fanatics want to bring about the End of Days. They believe literally in the Book of Revelations and are convinced that they can bring about Judgment Day in their lifetimes. And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's an actual theologian describing this at length.

This poisonous undercurrent of American religion and politics has been present for some time and this is perhaps the greatest triumph they've ever had. All that remains to fulfill the prophecies is for a King of the North and a King of the South to declare war and for Israel to fall. I mean, prophecies are bullshit, we know that. But when someone sincerely believes their own bullshit, there's no reasoning with them.

BeetleManiac:

Actually, it's not that difficult. Trump is once more pandering to evangelical extremists like the kind he surrounded himself with (e.g. Robert Jefress). This will sound very irrational to dudes like you and I, but the motive here is that these religious fanatics want to bring about the End of Days. They believe literally in the Book of Revelations and are convinced that they can bring about Judgment Day in their lifetimes. And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's an actual theologian describing this at length.

This poisonous undercurrent of American religion and politics has been present for some time and this is perhaps the greatest triumph they've ever had. All that remains to fulfill the prophecies is for a King of the North and a King of the South to declare war and for Israel to fall. I mean, prophecies are bullshit, we know that. But when someone sincerely believes their own bullshit, there's no reasoning with them.

I don't get this. I was raised Catholic, and put through a Catholic education system (OLSH), but it always strikes me weird that evangelicals don't seem to have a system of active apocrypha 'scrubbing'. Stuff that is outmoded, or considered merely legendary, considered doubtful in origin, or just flat out erased from the usual catechism (ala stuff like the protocanonical, deuterocanonical and the Apocrypha) ... I'd like to get an honest opinion of people in the U.S. who might give me a rough percentage of evangelicals who legitimately believe all Jews should congregate in Israel just so they can convert them or they can die.

There was a pretty big following of that Christian Zionism in 19th century Anglicans. But that movement kind of died by the 20th century to some extent.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

BeetleManiac:

Actually, it's not that difficult. Trump is once more pandering to evangelical extremists like the kind he surrounded himself with (e.g. Robert Jefress). This will sound very irrational to dudes like you and I, but the motive here is that these religious fanatics want to bring about the End of Days. They believe literally in the Book of Revelations and are convinced that they can bring about Judgment Day in their lifetimes. And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's an actual theologian describing this at length.

This poisonous undercurrent of American religion and politics has been present for some time and this is perhaps the greatest triumph they've ever had. All that remains to fulfill the prophecies is for a King of the North and a King of the South to declare war and for Israel to fall. I mean, prophecies are bullshit, we know that. But when someone sincerely believes their own bullshit, there's no reasoning with them.

I don't get this. I was raised Catholic, and put through a Catholic education system (OLSH), but it always strikes me weird that evangelicals don't seem to have a system of active apocrypha 'scrubbing'. Stuff that is outmoded, or considered merely legendary, or just flat out erased from the usual Catechism (ala stuff like the protocanonical and deuterocanonical) ... I'd like to get an honest opinion of people in the U.S. who might give me a rough percentage of evangelicals who legitimately believe all Jews should congregate in Israel just so they can convert them or they can die.

There was a pretty big following of that Christian Zionism in 19th century Anglicans. But that movement kind of died by the 20th century to some extent.

I can only get this Pew Research thing so far: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/03/26/us-christians-views-on-the-return-of-christ/ which is just a "how many believe the endtimes will come within the next 40 years" question. I'm willing to bet that its a significant percentage of people the 48% who believe they will see the rapture believe in the rest of the Revelations stuff.

Gallup does say that 24% of the US still believes the bible literally: http://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx

Avnger:

I can only get this Pew Research thing so far: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/03/26/us-christians-views-on-the-return-of-christ/ which is just a "how many believe the endtimes will come within the next 40 years" question. I'm willing to bet that its a significant percentage of people the 48% who believe they will see the rapture believe in the rest of the Revelations stuff.

Gallup does say that 24% of the US still believes the bible literally: http://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx

Yeah, that's kind of frightening.

Well, eschatology is pretty common in any sect Abraham's God. The only thing Catholics and Orthodox write on the matter is the idea of the mass conversion of the Jews. But that this will just simply happen. Which is kind of spooky, but it kind of makes sense when you couch it with the zealotry the Inquisition monitored the 'Conversos' ... People get the wrong idea about the Inquisition, not for its monstrosity, no ... but the fact that the biggest threat wasn't the Jews and the Muslims ... but the unfaithfully converted. As that was seen as actively undermining God's Plan.

Inquisition wasn't about conversions (though it kind of was) ... it was about the unfaithfully converted and deviance from canon (albeit anybody will kind of do).

But that being said, the Catholic and Orthodox churches have no real official position on Zionism. It's not about a physical place, it's all about the 'triumph of faith'... Catholics don't even have an official position beyond what Paul had said. TThe dead shall be risen. Effectively you have the Ecclesia Militans, Ecclesia Poenitens and the Ecclesia Triumphans. The Militant, the Penitent, and the Triumphant. The idea of 'New Jerusalem' already exists, anything else is a vanity of the false.

New Jerusalem isn't a physical place, it's a state of mind and the soul. The metaphysically infinite abode of the Church triumphant.

Hence why in the Catholic Catechism you do not look to Christ's coming ... because Catholics or Orthodox Christians do not believe Christ will hold physical ministry upon Earth at the time of the Second Coming.

Rather, it is heretical.

You can't just stick enough Jews someplace and make it happen. God's Plan is supposed to be a little more delicate and largely more complex than taking some Jews and planting them in the desert. One of the big reasonns you had Christian Zionism in Protestant offshoots is because of a persistent literalism that saw them erase entire books of the Vulgate simply to maintain a direct interpretation of scripture.

Kind of tragic it is apparently so alive and well. If Trump did follow this advice on behalf of a Christian Zionist, I shudder to think what else he might have in mind...

Addendum_Forthcoming:
I don't get this.

There's a blog called Roll to Disbelieve that covers the details of conservative evangelical culture very well. I recommend it if you have the time. While it doesn't make these doorknob's superstitious conniptions any more logical or rational, she does a great job of explaining how and why the culture of evangelicalism is so fundamentally broken.

TheIronRuler:
Do you know something about the Singularity-loving French Breton, I forgot his handle-name and I want to contact him.

Danyal? He's been banned for years.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Inquisition wasn't about conversions (though it kind of was) ... it was about the unfaithfully converted and deviance from canon (albeit anybody will kind of do).

Generalising about "the" Inquisition a bit there. The Spanish Inquisition, for example, was in large part about money and politics, lots of powerful and wealthy Jews to kick out of the country, leaving their stuff behind.

Jux:

TheIronRuler:
Do you know something about the Singularity-loving French Breton, I forgot his handle-name and I want to contact him.

Danyal? He's been banned for years.

I thought he was Scandinavian. I don't think his first alt-account he created when he was suspended was ever banned, he just never came back. Well, after "Danyal Reloaded" and making a thread asking if it was unfair to ban him.

Thaluikhain:

Jux:

TheIronRuler:
Do you know something about the Singularity-loving French Breton, I forgot his handle-name and I want to contact him.

Danyal? He's been banned for years.

I thought he was Scandinavian. I don't think his first alt-account he created when he was suspended was ever banned, he just never came back. Well, after "Danyal Reloaded" and making a thread asking if it was unfair to ban him.

I thought he was french, or maybe belgian or dutch. Don't remember, but I can't think of anyone that was obsessed with the singularity as he was.

Thaluikhain:

Generalising about "the" Inquisition a bit there. The Spanish Inquisition, for example, was in large part about money and politics, lots of powerful and wealthy Jews to kick out of the country, leaving their stuff behind.

The Inquisition was all those things and more, but after the Reconquista and the growing religious crisis both south and east... the Inquisition in writing was supposed to be about policing the conversos and stopping individuals embellishing the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And yes... it was used by various individuals to drive out Jews after the fall of Al-Andalus ... and oppress the Conversos who might have simply "converted" to avoid constant harassment, but in secret practiced Judaism or Islam.

The most famous example of rigidly punishing any trangression of the Catechism of the CC is the story of Menocchio's Cheese and the Worms.

It became a lucrative way to justify the confiscation of property and increase government coffers as a way of funding colonial expansions, exploration and an armada.

I'm saying in writing, their official duty was to enforce a single accepted Catechist teaching, and to make sure the Conversos were practicising appropriately.

BeetleManiac:

Addendum_Forthcoming:
I don't get this.

There's a blog called Roll to Disbelieve that covers the details of conservative evangelical culture very well. I recommend it if you have the time. While it doesn't make these doorknob's superstitious conniptions any more logical or rational, she does a great job of explaining how and why the culture of evangelicalism is so fundamentally broken.

Ehhh... yeah... you hear about this nonsense. Honestly I've been through some of that nonsense. No shortage if you're trans. I more so have an understanding of Anglican and Catholic right wingnuttery here in Australia, but there's still some of the same recognizeable archetypes.

Jux:

TheIronRuler:
Do you know something about the Singularity-loving French Breton, I forgot his handle-name and I want to contact him.

Danyal? He's been banned for years.

.
I forgot all about it. Yes, he's the one I was looking for. Thank you

Agema:

This is why I say that in the end the Palestinians will be herded into a handful of isolated, urban concentration camps.

I think they're going to end up in Jordan. They appear to have citizenship there, though, I understand while the place look huge on a map, it is not hospitable terrain.

https://www.quora.com/What-do-Palestinians-do-if-they-want-to-travel-the-world-Does-Palestine-issue-passports-The-Palestinian-leaders-and-rich-Palestinians-must-travel-do-they-have-passports-or-what

Catnip1024:

TheIronRuler:
There's so much stuff I can't figure out the reason as to why Trump decided to do this. It seems like a decision made for gaining some benefit inside the US, not abroad.

This guy asks the right questions.

Thing is, it is hard to see who within the US would approve so much that it is worth angering so many people. And before anybody says "the far right", bear in mind that a large portion of them are massive anti-semites, so probably not.

There are a few scenarios I can imagine:
- Lobbying - some backroom dealings getting Trump to do this. Question is, who would want to lobby for this and why? If it is the government of Israel, which I kind of doubt, what would they have to offer in return? I can't see many other people with money and power being that concerned about this, on the other hand. Unless you want to get super-paranoid and claim that it's foreign influence to intentionally weaken the US global position.
- Ego - Trump wanting to leave his mark from his time in office. Because even once he leaves, it's difficult to move the embassy back out of Jerusalem without having it come across as a blatant slight to Israel. He leaves his successor in a difficult spot.
- Spite - What with all the failures regarding his travel bans and other plans, this is an easy move to piss off the people who are pissing him off.
- A genuine belief that this is the right thing to do. Probably through pig-headed ignorance and jumping to conclusions.

I dunno. But sales of US flags has sky-rocketed, so that's something.

The day after this was announced, I had a guy start preaching outside my stall about how Trump was sent by Jesus and how he's going to build a new temple in Jerusalem. The guy was clearly getting the words temple and embassy confused, which is easy to do considering they sound nothing alike and serve completely different purposes.

But yeah keep in mind I live in England, if we've got a nut job like that guy running around a small venue like where I work I can easily imagine there being lots more of them in America.

Bobular:
The day after this was announced, I had a guy start preaching outside my stall about how Trump was sent by Jesus and how he's going to build a new temple in Jerusalem. The guy was clearly getting the words temple and embassy confused, which is easy to do considering they sound nothing alike and serve completely different purposes.

But yeah keep in mind I live in England, if we've got a nut job like that guy running around a small venue like where I work I can easily imagine there being lots more of them in America.

See, that's why I miss being in interesting places like Manchester. You wouldn't get nutters like that out in the sticks. (We have our own special brand of nutters)

No, I had no idea how prevalent these people were. I would still say that I wouldn't expect them to be able to influence top level policy, but after the whole South Korea fiasco, who knows?

Bobular:

The day after this was announced, I had a guy start preaching outside my stall about how Trump was sent by Jesus and how he's going to build a new temple in Jerusalem. The guy was clearly getting the words temple and embassy confused, which is easy to do considering they sound nothing alike and serve completely different purposes.

But yeah keep in mind I live in England, if we've got a nut job like that guy running around a small venue like where I work I can easily imagine there being lots more of them in America.

That's fucking frightening.

Technically the guy isn't getting confused about anything, rather that is an example of Anglican Christian Zionism. What he may be referring to is the idea in Protestant eschatology of the End of Days is the creation of New Jerusalem and Christ's 1000 year Kingdom on Earth.

For Catholics, 'New Jerusalem' is more of a spiritual abode for the Ecclesia Triumphans. Basically the people risen up to union with God. Roman Catholics and Greek/Russian Orthodoxy both agree that Christ will never hold ministry on Earth proper, but the Ecclesia Poenitens and the Ecclesia Triumphans shall see the Second Coming.

At the core, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, New Jerusalem is less a thing to be built ... it already exists as a spiritual place.

But in Protestant eschatology, New Jerusalem is a literal place.

And to answer the idea of how anti-Semite this is... Christian Zionism has little to do with better treatment of Jews. Rather that Protestants can make eschatology happen by moving Jews to Israel and converting them.

Rather at the End of Days, all Christian denominations believe there will be a mass conversion of the Jews. It's just in the more Hell and brimstone Protestant literalism of the Eschaton, that there will be physical New Jerusalem, and (thus) a physical war for souls. While Catholics agree the Second Coming will be universally realised 'as if a lightning bolt' ... New Jerusalem already exists, therefore the War of God's Kingdom is a spiritual renaissance rather than a real war in most context ...

The Dead shall be Risen, the Militant (basically living Catholics that still hold to faith of God's love) shall greet the Penitent (people in purgatory) and the Triumphant (people that have ascended to union with God) and all three will see the Second Coming.

There's kind of a reason the Catechist of the CC keeps eschatology to a vague sense of hope and rebirth. Mainly because we don't really elabourate beyond what St. Paul had said. Ever wonder why the Catholic Church doesn't produce more doomsaying stuff about the Rapture? That.

In Protestantism, New Jerusalem is a physical place that will be built. So the crazy in front of your booth is very much mouthing off 19th Century Anglican ideas of the Eschaton. Whereby it is a literal thing ... as in the temple of New Jerusalem shall be physically built.

So ... no, if my suspicions are accurate ... he is scarily not getting 'embassy' and 'temple' mixed up.

Basically what the crazy might be referring to is the idea Trump will bring the end of days... in your mind, you think he's confused about a temple vs. an embassy. In his brain, he is very much talking about the physical construction of a temple and the creation of New Jerusalem.

And that will not go well for Jews... Christian Zionism is effectively the idea that if you migrate enough Jews to the Holy Land, something magical will happen (usually at the cost to the Jews themselves).

So by Trump trying to usher in greater Jewish migration to Israel, basically both Christian Zionists and Zionists see it in two different lights. For Christian Zionists, it's all about 'making the divine plan happen sooner'. For Catholics and Russian/Greek Orthodoxy, such is a vanity of faith and thus heretical... hence why the Catholic Church has effectively been viewed by people as 'Anti-Zionist' for roughly 1500 years.

Fairly rightfully, might I add. St. Augustine of Hippo was really into the idea of eternal Christian conquest. It matter not the specific ruler or kingdoms ... what mattered most was the gentiles that would be at the seat of all empires, and above that Christians first and foremost in the end.

So theoretically St. Augustine would be okay with Buddhist rulers and Jews in their land before a Jewish Ruler in formerly Buddhist lands. To be fair, the time that St. Augustine was alive, you effectively had in his world-view Christians, pagans, and Jews. Which isn't exactly a big list.

Which is a pretty angry thing to say, and namely why St. Augustine of Hippo doesn't get quoted so much in the last two centuries. He flat out rebuked the idea of murdering and persecuting them, but he was salty concerning the nature of Early Christian martyrdom which is the foundational aspects of the Roman Church. Not only that, but he saw it as protecting Christians by making sure Jews do not rule. The first three centuries of Christianity were a hotbed of interstitial conflicts between Judaism, Christianity, and paganism ... and Christians often got the short end of the stick from both its 'competitors' in a sense.

That being said St. Augustine of Hippo is venerated in all Christian denominations... so you will see his rhetoric pop up about 'the place of the Jews' regardless of denomination... no matter how amazingly dated and the modern world's outlook of Christianity being effectively dominant since the 5th Century AD.

If this sort of rhetoric is spreading in England, that's kind of a spooky 19th Century revivalism of Christian Zionism you've got going there... Then again he could have just been triggered by this largely unprecedented move by Trump due to evident correspondence with American Christian Zionists.

Any country is bound to have them, and be triggered by such things into assuming old prophecies.

Gorfias:

Agema:

This is why I say that in the end the Palestinians will be herded into a handful of isolated, urban concentration camps.

I think they're going to end up in Jordan. They appear to have citizenship there, though, I understand while the place look huge on a map, it is not hospitable terrain.

https://www.quora.com/What-do-Palestinians-do-if-they-want-to-travel-the-world-Does-Palestine-issue-passports-The-Palestinian-leaders-and-rich-Palestinians-must-travel-do-they-have-passports-or-what

They don't have citizenship there and it is unlikely that they would get it in the future.

The last thing Jordan wants is to give Israel permission to send all the Palestinensians there.

Gorfias:

I think they're going to end up in Jordan. They appear to have citizenship there, though, I understand while the place look huge on a map, it is not hospitable terrain.

Jordan is not our colonial plaything. It should not be a dumping ground for displaced people inconvenient to us and our allies. Or at bare minimum, if we want Jordan to take in millions, we can ask it with free and fair option of refusal, and if it agrees, to pay it a metric shit-ton for the inconvenience and infrastructure it'll need to support and integrate them.

Jordanians and Palestinians are somewhat culturally distinct. Jordan offered citizenship to the 2 million Palestinian refugees who fled there ~1947-1967. As well as the huge task of integrating them, after 1967 Palestinian militants threatened to overthrow the Jordanian government, ending with Jordan having to militarily suppress them. I really don't think they want the headache of absorbing another couple of million.

That said, what's going to happen in the long run is the Palestinians are going to leave. They're going to be stuck in squalid, economically useless hellholes, and they will emigrate. They don't even need to be deported or expelled, they can just be rendered so miserable that they'll leave on their own accord - and the good news for Israel is that makes its ethnic cleansing operation relatively cost-free.

inu-kun:
1) "Apartheid and cleansing", what you say does not happen in reality.

Ethnic cleansing is pretty much exactly what it is.

Israel is operating a policy of removal of Palestinians from substantial tracts of territory in the West Bank. At face value, it's economic; Israel is effectively offering the land to people with the money to build - which purely coincidentally happen to be Israelis (GDP/capita ~$35,000) rather than Palestinians (GDP/capita ~$2000).

Underlying it, however, is the very real use of force: Israeli "security" claims which act to control and suppress free Palestinian movement and economic activity, coupled with assumption of legal authority over the occupied territories that, again, is ultimately enforced at the point of a gun.

In many ways, it shares parallels with what the Europeans did to the Native Americans. Simply impose over another people's way of life, claims and rights. And if they get testy that what they had is taken from them, send in the military.

Tot he surprise of absolutely nobody, the Palestinian government have said that they will no longer negotiate if the Americans are involved. President Abbas has stated he will refuse to meet with Vice-President Pence during his upcoming tour of the Middle East.

Fun for all involved.

Major Tom:
Tot he surprise of absolutely nobody, the Palestinian government have said that they will no longer negotiate if the Americans are involved. President Abbas has stated he will refuse to meet with Vice-President Pence during his upcoming tour of the Middle East.

Fun for all involved.

That threat doesn't really mean much when the entire history of the Palestinian government and the organisations that it was birthed from made it clear negotiations where always for a temporary state of affairs and that a long term peace would not happen so long as Israel exists. Because every single peace offer without exception being worst then the last to deal with the change in the reality of the geopolitical situation hasn't clued them in on the fact that the offer they get today will be better then any they could possibly get in the future, and the possibility of them getting more is 0.

I wonder how many of them regret pushing the idea that the Green Line wasn't the international border during Jordan's occupation given that now the only thing we can say about Israel regarding its border with Palestine is that the line is somewhere but there isn't any legal basis for claiming it's anywhere in particular.

Zontar:

I wonder how many of them regret pushing the idea that the Green Line wasn't the international border during Jordan's occupation given that now the only thing we can say about Israel regarding its border with Palestine is that the line is somewhere but there isn't any legal basis for claiming it's anywhere in particular.

The 1967 border is a very important legal basis for the Israeli-Palestinian border. It isn't the only basis for determining an eventual border; more a sort of "start point" amended with relevance to those various other factors.

Trump is taken a wrong step. This act will pour the gasoline on the fire. More violence and war is the destiny of this decision. Trump is the worst president of USA.

Note that there is now pressure on people to recognise East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital? So this could actually wind up working out.

Matthew Gruber:
Trump is the worst president of USA.

Slaves owned - 0 (according to tax returns at least);
Wars started - 0 (atm);
Sex scandals (in office) - TBD.

Yeah, I'd withhold statements like that just yet. A complete incompetent is still far less dangerous than a clever bastard.

Catnip1024:
Slaves owned - 0 (according to tax returns at least);
Wars started - 0 (atm);
Sex scandals (in office) - TBD.

Syrian civilians killed: 2,819 - 4,529 in seven months (up from 2,298-3,398 over Obama's entire term)
US soldiers killed: 31 service members and 17 sailors (up from 26 in 2016)
Bombs dropped on Yemen: 100+ (up from 38 in 2016)
Bombs dropped on Afghanistan: 2,400 (up from 1,337 in 2016)
US troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria: 26,000 (up from 18,000 in 2016)

On a less serious note, we can add:

Nuclear-armed dictators insulted: 1 (up from 0)
Candidates accused of child molestation endorsed: 1 (up from 0)
Children's health insurance programs defunded: 1 (up from 0)

bastardofmelbourne:
Syrian civilians killed: 2,819 - 4,529 in seven months (up from 2,298-3,398 over Obama's entire term)
US soldiers killed: 31 service members and 17 sailors (up from 26 in 2016)
Bombs dropped on Yemen: 100+ (up from 38 in 2016)
Bombs dropped on Afghanistan: 2,400 (up from 1,337 in 2016)
US troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria: 26,000 (up from 18,000 in 2016)

On a less serious note, we can add:

Nuclear-armed dictators insulted: 1 (up from 0)
Candidates accused of child molestation endorsed: 1 (up from 0)
Children's health insurance programs defunded: 1 (up from 0)

Yeah, my problem with these trends is that they reflect the current state of warfare, and the rising and falling of certain theatres. For the same reason that one can't call Obama a warmonger for the spike in drone strikes during his time.

The US Sailors issue is a serious issue, but is (afaik) mainly down to general incompetency amongst the fleet and completely unrelated to Trump.

He's a shit President. But my point is still that he is not the "worst ever".

Catnip1024:

He's a shit President. But my point is still that he is not the "worst ever".

Is that your point? Or is your point that you love Trump? Cause you pretend you think he is shit, but you go to great lengths to defend him. He is actively and literally ruining the world. Stop defending that.

Catnip1024:
He's a shit President. But my point is still that he is not the "worst ever".

Give him time.

Saelune:
Is that your point? Or is your point that you love Trump? Cause you pretend you think he is shit, but you go to great lengths to defend him. He is actively and literally ruining the world. Stop defending that.

I dislike hyperbole. Claiming Trump is the "worst ever" is a little bit of a slap in the face for all those murdered native americans, suppressed slaves, those dead in Vietnam. People need perspective.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
Is that your point? Or is your point that you love Trump? Cause you pretend you think he is shit, but you go to great lengths to defend him. He is actively and literally ruining the world. Stop defending that.

I dislike hyperbole. Claiming Trump is the "worst ever" is a little bit of a slap in the face for all those murdered native americans, suppressed slaves, those dead in Vietnam. People need perspective.

Trump defends Nazis. Nazis killed well over 15 million people in horrific ways.

I agree people need perspective...about how fucking horrible Nazis are.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
Is that your point? Or is your point that you love Trump? Cause you pretend you think he is shit, but you go to great lengths to defend him. He is actively and literally ruining the world. Stop defending that.

I dislike hyperbole. Claiming Trump is the "worst ever" is a little bit of a slap in the face for all those murdered native americans, suppressed slaves, those dead in Vietnam. People need perspective.

Yeah, it's interesting you bring up the natives. You know, the natives that he literally just stripped more land from. Protected land that is important to their culture and identity, but sure, let's minimize what he's doing because other people in history have been worse.

Also, again, he is standing up for nazis. You don't get much worse than that. At best, he is indifferent to the pain and deaths of others. At worst, he is actively supporting that pain and death. I mean, for god's sake, the man praised Duterte. You know, that guy in the Philippines actively exterminating people?

This is some sociopathic attempt at distraction.

Saelune:
Trump defends Nazis. Nazis killed well over 15 million people in horrific ways.

I agree people need perspective...about how fucking horrible Nazis are.

cjspyres:
Yeah, it's interesting you bring up the natives. You know, the natives that he literally just stripped more land from. Protected land that is important to their culture and identity, but sure, let's minimize what he's doing because other people in history have been worse.

Also, again, he is standing up for nazis. You don't get much worse than that. At best, he is indifferent to the pain and deaths of others. At worst, he is actively supporting that pain and death. I mean, for god's sake, the man praised Duterte. You know, that guy in the Philippines actively exterminating people?

"The worst".

Are you genuinely, honestly, seriously trying to tell me that you don't believe a single US President in history has done worse than the things Trump has done - done, not tweeted about, not said, but actually achieved - in his one year in power? I know you can pick a lot of things about him to whine about, but come on. Seriously...

Catnip1024:
"The worst".

Are you genuinely, honestly, seriously trying to tell me that you don't believe a single US President in history has done worse than the things Trump has done - done, not tweeted about, not said, but actually achieved - in his one year in power? I know you can pick a lot of things about him to whine about, but come on. Seriously...

There is a case to be made that in terms of scale, the sheer incompetence and corruption of the administration has caused damage that will take generations to repair. Under this administration the EPA is slowly being poisoned from within, we're the only country to drop out of the Paris climate accord, we've lost most of our senior diplomatic corps, net neutrality just got nixed, we've alienated allies and our standing in the international community may have been irreparably tarnished while the Diet Coke-head in Chief tries to play Risk with real nukes.

While nothing Trump has done directly is an atrocity on par with the Trail of Tears, we're only a year in and he's already created significant damage to our nation and our democracy. We're looking at a president who is very likely to be removed from office for colluding with a foreign power to influence the election. If he's not the worst yet, it sure as shit ain't for lack of trying.

Saelune:

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
Is that your point? Or is your point that you love Trump? Cause you pretend you think he is shit, but you go to great lengths to defend him. He is actively and literally ruining the world. Stop defending that.

I dislike hyperbole. Claiming Trump is the "worst ever" is a little bit of a slap in the face for all those murdered native americans, suppressed slaves, those dead in Vietnam. People need perspective.

Trump defends Nazis. Nazis killed well over 15 million people in horrific ways.

I agree people need perspective...about how fucking horrible Nazis are.

We also need perspective about how horrible the United States has been in regards to white supremacy, colonialism, and so on.

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