How bad was 9/11 really

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apparently its a bigger deal than the holocaust if you believe fox news

chuckman1:
This is a topic I've wanted to talk about with the community for awhile and I feel could spark some interesting conversation. (Note I am American and have lived here my entire life)

Was 9/11 really that bad? I mean yes a couple thousand innocent people died for no good reason but I don't see it even close to the tragic level it's been made out to be. We have also had many liberties robbed of us in attempts to "keep us safe" that have really made no difference on our safety level.

It just shows how in America we feel untouchable and whenever something like this happens we freak out like HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN? This happens all around the world and it wasn't even close to the worst things that happen in my opinion. Also how come every single 9/11 they go over it at school. We get what happened we dont need to keep bringing this up.

How do you feel on the issue?
:note I'd be careful how you word your response I suspect anyone who disagrees with your opinion will report you

Do you also think that the bombing of pear harbor wasn't "all that bad?"...smh
You said it yourself "a couple thousand people died for no good reason", and your still asking the question? Seeing as how one massive war began with the death of one man by a Bosnian Serb, I don't think we were wrong to act the way we did when thousands of people died.

Biodeamon:
not to start a flame war but...
america nuked japan twice and they brushed it off eventually,

america has just two buidings blown up and they act like the whole entire world has ended.

ah, the nuclear bombing of Japan. Instead of getting into a heated argument with you over whether it was "right" or not, I think I'll let Christopher Hitchens take this one:

I think the level of "terrible" is purely subjective. One of the factors I think that skews people's view point is the time it took for it to happen as well as the fact it was videotaped. Much like the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, the media and politicians used it as a reason to move their own agendas forward. I know that statement sounds like a bunch of conspiracy-theorist mumbo-jumbo, but the US has pretty much been in a constant state of war since the 1910s and a large chunk of the economy is based on the perpetration of war. And since Vietnam, it hasn't been favourable for them to enter another country's civil war, so something like 9/11 was seen as a popular catalyst. It also helped that the fact the last big war the US was involved in was in Kuwait, so they already had the equipment to go into a war in the Middle East.

To bring it back to the OP's question, it depends on what lens you're looking at it from. I'm a Canadian, so I see it from a different point of view than the average American. Yeah, it was a terrible tragedy, but there have been worse. That's not meant to downplay the sorrow, it's just fact.

Jamie Suitor:
You cant really scale 9/11 by the few thousand people that died. You can only scale it by the cultural shift that it caused, did anyone actually knew of "terrorism" and "plane hijacking" before 9/11? Did it show how vulnerable the world is? Its the kind of things you need to take into account when it comes to 9/11.

Would the world be the same if it hadn't happened? no war on terror? Its more to do with the impact it caused.

Just wanted to say that everybody that knows anything about the world knows about terrorism and plane hijackings before 9/11... didn't someone explode a bomb in the WTC in 1993?

9/11 was bad but the USA completely overreacted. the death toll because of this reaction in Iraq alone is at the moment of posting between 104,547 - 114,213! (66,081 civilian deaths!)
(source: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ )

America always acts like the world's bully, threatening nations that wont fall in line, but when somebody for some reason punches back the bully starts indiscriminately beating up his classmates...

Eventually somebody is going to say "but Saddam was a bad man!", my reply will be:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Oh geez. It's this thread again...

I personally never lost anyone close to me during 9/11. Hurricane Katrina personally hit closer to home since my grandparents got caught in it. But I do see 9/11 as a pretty big event that left a pretty big impact on this country. In more ways than one.

I think at this point maybe it is time we move on. No sense living in the past. Nothing can be done about it now.

Lilani:
I don't think it was as bad as it could have been, simply looking at the numbers. I mean, imagine if the planes had gone into someplace like Disney World on a busy day. The park capacity of the Magic Kingdom alone is 80,000. Had they crashed the plane there during any major holiday...well, things would have been much more devastating.

If they killed everyone at Disney world then yes. But I sincerely doubt two planes could do it. Disney World is too spread out and covers too much area.

Anyway, 3,000 people died in a senseless act of violence and the effects of 9/11 were more than that. Yes the politicians took away liberties but that does not make it less tragic, it just makes politicians assholes (we knew that already).

It does not happen that often all around the world. Not on that scale.

Lopende Paddo:

Jamie Suitor:
You cant really scale 9/11 by the few thousand people that died. You can only scale it by the cultural shift that it caused, did anyone actually knew of "terrorism" and "plane hijacking" before 9/11? Did it show how vulnerable the world is? Its the kind of things you need to take into account when it comes to 9/11.

Would the world be the same if it hadn't happened? no war on terror? Its more to do with the impact it caused.

Just wanted to say that everybody that knows anything about the world knows about terrorism and plane hijackings before 9/11... didn't someone explode a bomb in the WTC in 1993?

9/11 was bad but the USA completely overreacted. the death toll because of this reaction in Iraq alone is at the moment of posting between 104,547 - 114,213! (66,081 civilian deaths!)
(source: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ )

War was the perfect reaction to what happened. Just not with Iraq. And yeah more people might've died but that's to be expected. More Americans died fighting the Japanese than in Pearl Harbor. Does that mean war was an overreaction there?

I think it was just the shock factor. It came out of nowhere and because of the time everyone saw it. I do agree that people go on about it a bit more than necessary though and it would be because it happened in America. Hopefully now that the 10 year anniversary has past and Osama Bin Laden is dead people will let it rest.

chuckman1:
We get what happened we dont need to keep bringing this up.

This is something I've been thinking about for a while.

This past 9/11 I tweeted: "There is line between respectful remembrance and obsessing over the past and I think we may be crossing it."

Man, did I get some negative feedback. Mostly from my neo-conservative aunt. To be fair, she did misunderstand what I was trying to say; she thought I was being calloused toward the memory of the people who died that day, when I wasn't. This is what I told her in a reply message, and I it's relevant for this topic, so I'll C+P.

"Maybe I should clarify. I don't want to diminish the truth of the tragedy in the lives of those affected by the attacks, nor the significance of the event to our country. What frustrates and disheartens me is that I see media outlets shamelessly plugging the day, as if name-dropping "9/11" automatically makes someone more patriotic. I believe that the best way to memorialize the day, and prove to our enemies that their attempt to cripple and scare us didn't work, would be to quietly and respectfully remember the day, rather than the pomp and circumstance I see surrounding this anniversary. Essentially, I believe the media is devaluing the day by overemphasizing it."

That pretty much sums up my feelings on 9/11 and the way it should be viewed.

I will say that I believe your topic, or perhaps the way you worded it is a sad statement. A few people organized and MURDERED over three thousand people. That is pure tragedy and is a despicable act that is on par with the holocaust (in that if they could kill 11 million people, they would) the people who committed this crime DESTROYED a portion of new york city and gave hundreds of people permanent illnesses from the debris left over and the dust.

I will say that the way we have responded to the tragedy and the actions of the government are awful, and, if anything unjust. I do not agree with the actions taken after the event, but I must say that 9/11 was a very tragic event that still hurts to remember. The thought that people can be as destructive, hateful, completely monstrous is disgusting.

That's all I've really gotta say...

Father Time:
War was the perfect reaction to what happened. Just not with Iraq. And yeah more people might've died but that's to be expected. More Americans died fighting the Japanese than in Pearl Harbor. Does that mean war was an overreaction there?

That's not a terribly good example. Japan also invaded the Phillipines at the same time and killed 25,000 soldiers and captured 100,000 more. So Japan did a heck of a lot more than Al-Qaeda ever did. 9/11 was the climax of years of planning, Pearl Harbor was just the beginning.

Anoni Mus:

bobfish92:
Yes, it was horrible, but in relation to things, well;

Number of innocents who died related to the attack: roughly 3000
Number of innocents who died in the war in iraq (documented in a warzone) over 100,000.

There are obviously the differences in timescales, but still.

To be fair one was in one day, the other many years.

About 9/11

"That 11 September, that lethal Tuesday morning, I awoke with dread to the sound of planes flying above my house," wrote Ariel Dorfman in the New Statesman recently. "When, an hour later, I saw smoke billowing from the centre of the city, I knew that life had changed for me, for my country, forever".

Dorfman - contrary to popular assumption - was not writing about New York in 2001. He was describing events 28 years earlier in Chile. Chile 1973 is the forgotten 9/11.

In April 1973, the CIA circulated a memo encouraging a military coup in Chile against Salvador Allende's democratically elected socialist government. The memorandum called for the promotion of economic chaos, political tension and affirmed that "ideally it would succeed in inducing the military to take over the government completely".

Five months later, the Chilean armed forces - strongly encouraged by the US - bombed the Presidential Palace and Allende shot himself. In the following days, over 13,500 people were arrested. The Pinochet dictatorship - aided and abated by the US - rolled out radical neo-liberal economic policy which required violent enforcement. In total, more than 3,200 people were disappeared or executed, 80,000 were imprisoned and 200,000 fled the country for political reasons. It was an alarming foreshadow of things to come.

more here http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/09/10/the-other-forgotten-911-tragedy/

Also, Noam Chomsky on both 9/11
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10307626-noam-chomsky-on-911-and-the-forgotten-911

Seeing as how you brought up Noam Chomsky and 9/11, I think you need to look at these

http://www.thenation.com/article/sin-left-islamic-fascism

http://www.thenation.com/article/blaming-bin-laden-first

http://www.thenation.com/article/rejoinder-noam-chomsky

Overblown to the point of insanity.

We still live in fear of the "terrorists," going to two wars (and what is comming up to be a third with Iran) over this issue as our freedoms been eroded for a false sense of security.

What people in the forum seem to forget is that these were not just American citizens who were killed. No there were people from all around the world there. Very important people. Whole businesses were in those two giant towers. People from all around the world were killed in just one place and then the pentagon was hit as well. America is a pretty safe country when you scale it to other countries around the world. To a average American what they knew of terror was simply the IRA and other groups countries had to deal with. Imagine it, seeing a building as big as the world trade crash down before your eyes and the booming sound it made. America was known for a safe place and its occupants felt safe there. In one of our biggest cities people were being killed. Innocent people whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't get me wrong, I am far from patriotic and I personally hate American foreign policy, but this was such a shock to American people that we simply didn't understand how to handle this, the last attack on American soil was in 1940. People of coarse over reacted. Unforgettably the following action was to declare war. If a war is in any way morally questionable then in no way is it a justified war. The following wars were mistakes in my opinion. More troops killed to spread some BS about Democracy.

This paragraph above isn't as tragic at the following image of Islam in America that pursued the attacks... a generalization was for ever engraved in their culture. They were Terrorist to the ignorant masses. Hell even Politicians such as the radical right that is what we must call the GOP condone them. Why? Because a few radicals of the religion attacked two buildings. Ironic though considering now they are the terrorist. They terrorist innocent Islamist... heh tragedy indeed.

Basically the big thing that the past anniversary of 9/11 has revealed to me is that the next minority to struggle in America is Islamist. Equality my ass.

9/11 was bad because it was an unprovoked attack on citizens. Had it been against a military target, people would have cared far less. Take the USS Cole, for instance. Yes, it was a direct act of war against a US Naval Vessel, but no one was really twitchy about it except for sailors.

But the best explanation I can give is this:

As people have said before, it's the equivalent of someone breaking into your home and stealing the stuff off your mantelpiece.

Some may say "At least you're OK, and they didn't take anything else." It doesn't matter, some bastard just broke into your home and stole stuff! It doesn't matter that they only stole a bit, they could come back and do it again! You probably don't feel safe in your own home anymore, either.

I never really cared to much about the hype associated with 9/11.

Yeah, it was sad and tragic and all those other words people throw around to describe it, but it wasn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Only in America would we have the conceit to overplay a man-made disaster that killed a couple thousand people (as opposed to disasters everywhere else in the world that are far worse), then use it as an excuse to attack a country NEXT TO the place where the terrorists were from and build an entire campaign to piss on our freedoms with the Patriot Act that was supposed to "protect us." (On a lesser note, I miss being able to bring shampoo on an airplane without being strip searched)

In this sense, I guess, 9/11 was pretty bad. Not because of the body count, but because of the violence that followed.

A Weary Exile:
The fact that the government used 9/11 to grab powers they otherwise wouldn't have doesn't lessen the tragedy of the event itself, neither does the fact that more tragic things have happened elsewhere.

Thank you. I love how we're grading tragedies on a curve. This is the very mindset of people who themselves have never sacrificed. Looking at numbers. Was it a tragedy? Of course. Were Haiti, Japan's Tsunami and all such events, tragedies? Of course. There is no curve. Thousands dead are thousands dead.

I agree with Jamie^ as a act in itself when measured by the number of lives taken, it is very insignificant. However when you consider the symbolism of a far away traditionally thought of as weak, enemy being able to strike at the centre of america it is a very powerful gesture.
The impact is incredibly large and varied and of course the world would be different today without it. To be completely honest I am less concerned about terrorism and more concerned about the possible political gain that may have come about through the vast overreaction and vilifying of the event.

Veylon:

Father Time:
War was the perfect reaction to what happened. Just not with Iraq. And yeah more people might've died but that's to be expected. More Americans died fighting the Japanese than in Pearl Harbor. Does that mean war was an overreaction there?

That's not a terribly good example. Japan also invaded the Phillipines at the same time and killed 25,000 soldiers and captured 100,000 more. So Japan did a heck of a lot more than Al-Qaeda ever did. 9/11 was the climax of years of planning, Pearl Harbor was just the beginning.

And there's been a lot of thwarted attacks by Al-Qaeda since then.

People make such a big deal out of 9/11 because it was so impressive on a primal level. We saw some giant fucking buildings fell down, WOAH, that's way more amazing to the primitive brain than some numbers. It's the same reason why everyone talks about the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but pretty much everyone has forgotten about the fire-bombing campaigns that killed much more people than the nukes.

People react much more strongly to the murder of a handful of people in a short time than the murder of a lot of people over a long time.

chuckman1:
This is a topic I've wanted to talk about with the community for awhile and I feel could spark some interesting conversation. (Note I am American and have lived here my entire life)

Was 9/11 really that bad? I mean yes a couple thousand innocent people died for no good reason but I don't see it even close to the tragic level it's been made out to be. We have also had many liberties robbed of us in attempts to "keep us safe" that have really made no difference on our safety level.

It just shows how in America we feel untouchable and whenever something like this happens we freak out like HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN? This happens all around the world and it wasn't even close to the worst things that happen in my opinion. Also how come every single 9/11 they go over it at school. We get what happened we dont need to keep bringing this up.

How do you feel on the issue?
:note I'd be careful how you word your response I suspect anyone who disagrees with your opinion will report you

The event itself was small but it had a huge effect on domestic and foreign policy, effectively ending the post-cold war era of prosperity. Should it be continuously taught in schools? Well, yeah, that event and its consequences should be brought up, because it affected recent world history.

The_root_of_all_evil:
There's no safe way of discussing this publicly.

We haven't even got around to dealing with Hiroshima, The American Civil War or the War of Independence yet.

Give it another 100 years.

hahaha well said!

Off topic: i feel like this thread pops up every 2 months...

The_root_of_all_evil:
There's no safe way of discussing this publicly.

We haven't even got around to dealing with Hiroshima, The American Civil War or the War of Independence yet.

Give it another 100 years.

Thank you. It's starting to disgust me seeing so many on this forum seeming to be so willing to just brush any human tragedy aside because of where it took place or who was involved.

Equally, I'm appalled when someone drags out the old thought, "Well, tragedies like the Holocaust were much worse. Therefore <event> wasn't that bad because more people died in the other event."

Bullshit. Any mass loss of life is tragic. Regardless of the cause. Anyone saying otherwise is either an extreme douche bag or is a hipster trying to be "cool".

lacktheknack:
As people have said before, it's the equivalent of someone breaking into your home and stealing the stuff off your mantelpiece.

Some may say "At least you're OK, and they didn't take anything else." It doesn't matter, some bastard just broke into your home and stole stuff! It doesn't matter that they only stole a bit, they could come back and do it again! You probably don't feel safe in your own home anymore, either.

But then, some people like lacktheknack here, come along and provide a logical and level-headed response. Thusly reaffirming my faith in (some of) the people on this forum.

Basically, it was like having a guy running up and hitting your thigh with a baseball bat, and then drawing a gun and managing to shoot your foot off in the scuffle.

The reason 9/11 is "that bad" is because it happened to America, and as I am sure everyone knows, NOTHING happens to America. They may invade every country in the world and say it's for peace, but as soon as someone spits on their cake its doomsday and the most horrific event ever. Thats about it really. The fact that ~2000 (or so?) people died, that it was in New York, that it destroyed 2 really big buildings, that it was in daylight, and that it was with jumbo jets, are factors. But the main reason that it is so incredibly horrifying, is because it happened to America. Kind of like Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor really sucked for the USA, but it really isn't as bad as they make it seem. Throw into account that even if it was x3 worse, they could have still crushed Japan, and you can appreciate how silly it is.

I'll admit, when something bad happens in my country, it seems worse for me than if it happened in another country, but you have to realize that if your country's biggest export is war, you're going to see some on home soil once in a while.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Skullkid4187:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
they had it coming. Its a pity the plane didnt crash into the white house, but there you go.

That's just a horrible thing to say.

And dropping nukes, killing children and invading countries is a terrible thing to do. What do you want? The US does have it coming.

So let me get this straight, you agree that it is wrong for the US to kill innocent people(the kids you mentioned) and yet your response when somebody kills innocent Americans is that it's ok? I don't know if your trolling or just being hypocritical. I didn't realize that it was ok to kill innocent people provided that they were a US citizen.

lRookiel:
Yes, mainly because it was a man made disaster, over three thousand people died because of other human beings hatred/stupidity or whatever you think the cause was. I know the death toll was less than earthquakes and hurricanes that killed thousands more, but they were natural disasters and may be perceived as it being noones fault.

Therefore man made disasters like 9/11 really are that bad, because certain individuals were the cause, not like the random occurances of an earthquake..

Um...
Let me quote the death tolls on some OTHER man-made disasters. For the sake of time, I'll just list some of the most well-known:
World War II, at 40-70 million civilians and soldiers dead.
World War I, 15 million dead.
Vietnam War, 2.5-6 million dead.

Yeah, there are other factors that make 9/11 a terrible thing, mostly the unrest caused by what happened. Suddenly people got really scared, and for pretty good reasons. However, the death toll was barely a drop of water in an ocean of deaths caused by humans killing other humans. "When the rich go to war, it's the poor that die." So many soldiers all fighting because their leader made them do it. Terrorism is a group of guys who are really pissed about what someone is doing and take to causing the greatest possible unrest to get their attention and demand change. If you ask me, war sounds a lot worse.

On an emotional level people can't really register numbers properly. A well known quote from our dear friend Staline sums it up pretty well "One Death is a Tragedy; a Million is a Statistic"

More people die in car accidents every day than 9/11, but car accidents are a fact of life. 9/11 was the deliberate murder of innocent US citizens by somone who would have liked to kill many more if he had the chance. On top of that, it took place in a pair of famous buildings, adding a level of symbolism to it as well.

The big thing about 9/11 is that it was a wake up call to how crazy those middle eastern fanatical groups like Al-Queada really are. It's like the little neighbor kid who you just think is a little weird until one day you find him playing with a pile of severed cat heads. We knew those people who marched down the street burning flags and chanting "death to America" were off their meds, but 9/11 showed us that they were certifiably insane and needed to be dealt with.

Father Time:

Lopende Paddo:

Jamie Suitor:
You cant really scale 9/11 by the few thousand people that died. You can only scale it by the cultural shift that it caused, did anyone actually knew of "terrorism" and "plane hijacking" before 9/11? Did it show how vulnerable the world is? Its the kind of things you need to take into account when it comes to 9/11.

Would the world be the same if it hadn't happened? no war on terror? Its more to do with the impact it caused.

Just wanted to say that everybody that knows anything about the world knows about terrorism and plane hijackings before 9/11... didn't someone explode a bomb in the WTC in 1993?

9/11 was bad but the USA completely overreacted. the death toll because of this reaction in Iraq alone is at the moment of posting between 104,547 - 114,213! (66,081 civilian deaths!)
(source: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ )

War was the perfect reaction to what happened. Just not with Iraq. And yeah more people might've died but that's to be expected. More Americans died fighting the Japanese than in Pearl Harbor. Does that mean war was an overreaction there?

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are not even remotely comparable, this is because an act of war can only be done by a country, in the case of 9/11 there wasn't a country to attack only an idea...

the only things that will come out of this war is loss of life, oil and the now extremist relatives of 66,081 civilians that have been wronged (just like the civilians in the WTC where wronged) who now want revenge (just like the USA wanted after 9/11). this is going to be a vicious cycle because of reckless reaction-ism.

PS: to people that maintain that the attack on the WTC was unprovoked, pick up a history book sometime and you just might learn something about the USA foreign policy's in the past, which are a direct result for the hatred some people have for the USA and for what happened on 9/11.

Bin laden couldn't have taken arms against the US if the US hadn't given him the arms in the first place. idem ditto for Saddam Hussein.

chuckman1:
This is a topic I've wanted to talk about with the community for awhile and I feel could spark some interesting conversation. (Note I am American and have lived here my entire life)

Was 9/11 really that bad? I mean yes a couple thousand innocent people died for no good reason but I don't see it even close to the tragic level it's been made out to be. We have also had many liberties robbed of us in attempts to "keep us safe" that have really made no difference on our safety level.

It just shows how in America we feel untouchable and whenever something like this happens we freak out like HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN? This happens all around the world and it wasn't even close to the worst things that happen in my opinion. Also how come every single 9/11 they go over it at school. We get what happened we dont need to keep bringing this up.

How do you feel on the issue?
:note I'd be careful how you word your response I suspect anyone who disagrees with your opinion will report you

Lets put it this way, it was arguably worse than Pearl Harbor, and Pearl Harbor was very bad.

Jamie Suitor:
did anyone actually knew of "terrorism"

Considering the 1993 WTC bombing? I'd say even America knew of it. That's not mentioning the ongoing fight the British had against the IRA (publicly supported by Americans including elected congressional politicians) which included a mortar attack on the Prime Minister's residence. I'm fairly certain other countries had their own issues with terrorism too.

To say no one knew of it is laughable. The only change is that Americans decided to wet themselves over 3000 deaths and cause thousands upon thousands more.

You wanna know how many American deaths can be attributed to obesity alone in the US every year?

About 300,000. And there's no real indication that number is going down.

That's the equivalent of one thousand September 11 attacks every year.

I'll start believing that America is really serious about protecting their people when keeping their citizenry fit and healthy is more than a pet project for the First Lady.

Not to say it's a bad pet project mind, I heartily endorse her actions. But it's not as if we have much reason to believe America is serious about it when that's all we see.

DustyDrB:
You'll pardon the masses for freaking out, wondering, "If they can do that so easily, then what else can they do to us?" The sheer spectacle of it was enough to make a deep cultural imprint.

No, I won't. As I stated, Britain suffered a mortar attack on the Prime Minister's place of residence. You will note that somehow we prevent ourselves from mounting a full scale invasion of Ireland after that. So I will not pardon 'the masses' for their reaction to September 11, and neither should you. The reaction by the American government and the support it received from its people was nothing less than a disgrace. Certainly no actions worthy of the holder of the title 'leader of the free world'.

Amnestic:

Jamie Suitor:
did anyone actually knew of "terrorism"

Considering the 1993 WTC bombing? I'd say even America knew of it. That's not mentioning the ongoing fight the British had against the IRA (publicly supported by Americans including elected congressional politicians) which included a mortar attack on the Prime Minister's residence. I'm fairly certain other countries had their own issues with terrorism too.

To say no one knew of it is laughable. The only change is that Americans decided to wet themselves over 3000 deaths and cause thousands upon thousands more.

You wanna know how many American deaths can be attributed to obesity alone in the US every year?

About 300,000. And there's no real indication that number is going down.

That's the equivalent of one thousand September 11 attacks every year.

I'll start believing that America is really serious about protecting their people when keeping their citizenry fit and healthy is more than a pet project for the First Lady.

Not to say it's a bad pet project mind, I heartily endorse her actions. But it's not as if we have much reason to believe America is serious about it when that's all we see.

DustyDrB:
You'll pardon the masses for freaking out, wondering, "If they can do that so easily, then what else can they do to us?" The sheer spectacle of it was enough to make a deep cultural imprint.

No, I won't. As I stated, Britain suffered a mortar attack on the Prime Minister's place of residence. You will note that somehow we prevent ourselves from mounting a full scale invasion of Ireland after that. So I will not pardon 'the masses' for their reaction to September 11, and neither should you. The reaction by the American government and the support it received from its people was nothing less than a disgrace. Certainly no actions worthy of the holder of the title 'leader of the free world'.

well considering the IRA runs out strictly out of the part of ireland that is already part of the UK. that would be a stupid and illogical decision now wouldnt it, that would be like invading Scotland. and boohoo some poor brit in his house had a mortar launched at him, its a house that probably at most has 20 people in it all times. not 10's of thousands. comparing obesity deaths to an attack on a structure full of civilians is stupid. well i guess next time a european school gets bombed or a train does i'll just say so what those children died 300,000 people die of there own personal choice to be unhealthy.

Amnestic:

DustyDrB:
You'll pardon the masses for freaking out, wondering, "If they can do that so easily, then what else can they do to us?" The sheer spectacle of it was enough to make a deep cultural imprint.

No, I won't. As I stated, Britain suffered a mortar attack on the Prime Minister's place of residence. You will note that somehow we prevent ourselves from mounting a full scale invasion of Ireland after that. So I will not pardon 'the masses' for their reaction to September 11, and neither should you. The reaction by the American government and the support it received from its people was nothing less than a disgrace. Certainly no actions worthy of the holder of the title 'leader of the free world'.

I think you're transferring someone else's point onto mine, as I only mentioned the wars as one of the things that serves as a constant reminder to us:

DustyDrB:
The fact that we've had constant reminders since then (war, more war, "Patriot Act", airline safety changes, etc) keeps it fresh in our minds.

I never said that fear excused the needless wars.

The reaction I said you can pardon is the fear and the fact that people still feel its effects today. When they say "9/11 changed everything", it is a hyperbole, but it still has drastic and lingering effects. It united the country briefly only to soon after divide it again more vitriolic than it was before, and largely because of the decisions that were made while the people were still in shock and rage. We always glorified war before that day, but we viewed ourselves as the powerful hero. But then suddenly we felt vulnerable. We started hearing about "weapons of mass destruction". We were fed a steady diet of fear and were taught (overtly or covertly) to see almost everyone as a potential enemy.

I'm not saying these are good things. Hell, these are some of the reasons why I've given up on our government, the news media, and on the people to make wise decisions as a body. But I can connect the dots. I understand why people still remember 9/11 and hold the day up as the ultimate US tragedy. It's because we're still living in its shadow.

So I actually agree with you on the part of the government. It was and it is a disgrace. But it's hard to understand how deceived and manipulated the people of the US were if you didn't live here. If it weren't in my nature to try to be contrarian (I live in South Carolina. Many of the people I know have personalities that would fit in South Park), then maybe I'd be among them.

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