Murdering Physicists in Iran

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As many of you may or may not be aware, a nuclear physicist in Iran has been murdered, after a bomb was attached to the side of his car.

Following this, I found an opinion article from a guy from the telegraph (Although the link is to The Age, which is australian):

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/shed-no-tears-for-physicists-killed-in-covert-nuclear-war-20120113-1pzg8.html

Now, I thoroughly disagree with this guy, and in my opinion, this guy was still a civilian. What really shits me though, is his closing remark:

"I shall not shed any tears whenever one of these scientists encounters the unforgiving men on motorbikes (by which he means the murderers), men who live in the real world rather than a laboratory or philosophy seminar".

So essentially he is saying that these scientists are not living in the real world, and for that reason we should not care when they are killed, regardless of the fact that they may have families that rely on them or anything else. That single sentence absolutely disgusts me, and further adds to the interpretation of scientists as evil, which sounds silly, but when scientists are frequently portrayed in movies as antagonists, and a lot of the rhetoric from anti-carbon tax people in australia painting them as self-interested and corrupt, it really makes me wonder.

So, what are your views on this issue? Are nuclear scientists fair game for assassination? Do you agree with the view in the article?

No one should be fair game for assassination. Assassins might make for cool video game characters, but it's kinda hard to argue for the rule of law and human rights out of one side of your mouth while saying the extra-judicial killing of politically-inconvenient civilians is acceptable out of the other.

My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

Anyway why take out a single scientist? Yeah it might impede them a bit but its not worth the time and money it must of taken to assassinate him. Plus a scientist is a civilian so targeting him sends the wrong message. Computer viruses are fine, sabotage is fine, even an airstrike to destroy or damage a military facility or some centrifuges is fine. Assassinating a civilian is just counterproductive, cost inefficient, and oh yeah, highly unethical.

As for nuclear scientists being fair game? Probably not but it doesnt matter, nobody f*cks or tries to f*ck with Israel, those guys are paranoid, its almost as if they are surrounded by people who want to kill them.

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Preferably? Do you really think anyone deserves to be nuked? I mean really.

I think Israel has had something biting their arse for the past few decades and they just have kinda got used to it by now.

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Because the solution to a dead, innocent civilian is considerably more dead, innocent civilians? Yeah, that makes sense.

Seekster:

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Preferably? Do you really think anyone deserves to be nuked? I mean really.

I think Israel has had something biting their arse for the past few decades and they just have kinda got used to it by now.

Considering that it's an apartheid state illegaly occupying land that corrupts goverments, frequently engages in state sponsored murder and terrorism, routinely invades it's neighbours, plans to turn to world into ash if it might lose a war, manipulates nations into fighting it's wars, believes in racist, theocratic ideals, uses the holocaust as an argument against those that disapprove of it's actions and many other things that I could list, yes I do believe that such a nation should be blasted, burnt and purged from the face of the earth.

Katatori-kun:

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Because the solution to a dead, innocent civilian is considerably more dead, innocent civilians? Yeah, that makes sense.

Worked in WW2.

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

Anyway why take out a single scientist?

There have actually been a string of car bombs that have taken out several people in the Iranian nuclear machine.

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

You wish millions of people dead...how nice of you.

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Sorry to deflate your genocide-boner, but even if a nuclear engagement were to happen between Israel and Iran, the likely-hood of Iran being able to actually hit Israel with a missile is very low and only gets lower as time goes on.

ravensheart18:

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

Anyway why take out a single scientist?

There have actually been a string of car bombs that have taken out several people in the Iranian nuclear machine.

Yes I know, four people total including the one killed recently. Four scientists arent really going to slow down Iran that much. Still I am sure Israel will take any delay they can get. Israel wants the world to shape up and realize that this is a serious issue and deal with it for them.

SneeringCanuck:

Seekster:

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Preferably? Do you really think anyone deserves to be nuked? I mean really.

I think Israel has had something biting their arse for the past few decades and they just have kinda got used to it by now.

Considering that it's an apartheid state illegaly occupying land that corrupts goverments, frequently engages in state sponsored murder and terrorism, routinely invades it's neighbours, plans to turn to world into ash if it might lose a war, manipulates nations into fighting it's wars, believes in racist, theocratic ideals, uses the holocaust as an argument against those that disapprove of it's actions and many other things that I could list, yes I do believe that such a nation should be blasted, burnt and purged from the face of the earth.

Here we go.

If such a nation existed I would want it purged from the face of the Earth too. Since it doesnt you can rest easy.

Israel you see is a nation that probably needs to work on its commitments to freedom and civil liberties when it comes to Arab citizens but who is only interested in the territory it needs to maintain a secure border (well that and it wants Jerusalem and possibly Bethlehem too). Israel has annexed the Golan Heights and all of Jerusalem, I honestly do not think they or anyone who supports Israel cares if others think those annexations are illegal (though its funny when China talks about illegal annexations). As for the corruption of its government, maybe, I mean corruption and government go hand in hand, particularly in that part of the world.

Terrorism is deliberately targeting civilians to achieve a political objective. Israel does not do this though they do occasionally engage in tactics that I will agree arent entirely...kosher. As for invading their neighbors, well lets see...there was the Sinai War but that was actually orchestrated by France and the UK to regain control of the Suez Canal after Nasser nationalized it. There was the Six-Day War but to any reasonable observer Israel need only to have waited for a short time and they would have been invaded first so a pre-emptive strike under those circumstances is hardly worth criticizing. Israel has gone into Lebanon twice which you can criticize it some for. Still I would hardly call that routine. As for planning to turn the world to ash, HA as if. Even if Israel wanted to (which there is no indication it does) it couldnt.

Believes in racist theocratic ideals...they ARE a Jewish state. They are not however a theocracy. As for being racist...they don't like Arabs sure, I kind of have trouble blaming them for that given that the Arabs arent exactly thrilled with the Israelis either.

Personally I rather like Israel, more how it is determined to ensure its own survival and its own safety no matter what anyone thinks. Israel is a survivor and Heaven help anyone who gets in the way of that survival.

Scolar Visari:

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Sorry to deflate your genocide-boner, but even if a nuclear engagement were to happen between Israel and Iran, the likely-hood of Iran being able to actually hit Israel with a missile is very low and only gets lower as time goes on.

On the other side of the spectrum, Israel could choose the window their nuke goes through before detonating

SneeringCanuck:

Worked in WW2.

Sir, I unmask thee.

Look upon his true face, and watch as he shivers when I speak his truename:

Troll.

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

nah man big brother America will not let that happen. that and the Israelites are better trained at fighting then anyone else in the middle east right now. as far as karma is concerned i think they are are at complete neutrality since they constantly get bombed or attacked. but i guess defending yourself too well is wrong.

usmarine4160:

Scolar Visari:

SneeringCanuck:
I have no doubt that it was Israel.

Just another crime to add to their pile. Karma's going to come back to bite them in the ass some day, preferably in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Sorry to deflate your genocide-boner, but even if a nuclear engagement were to happen between Israel and Iran, the likely-hood of Iran being able to actually hit Israel with a missile is very low and only gets lower as time goes on.

On the other side of the spectrum, Israel could choose the window their nuke goes through before detonating

For Iran, there is no realistic nuclear option against Israel. If Israel is serious about the "Samson Option", there is nobody is in the area that can afford to play that game.

Almost certainly Mossad. The US seems to be trying to play more on the side of nice these days and Israel has always been very headstrong.

why am i not surprised by those comments, if there is one thing writers of opinion columns for newspapers have in common its their capabillity to be massive douchebags and say deliberately offensive remarks only to try and hide behind the 'journalism and free expression' or 'taken out of context' defence the second they are called out on it.

This is just an attempt by Israel to drag the US into a war with Iran. I know this sounds like I should have a tin foil hat on, but think about it, its almost certainly Israel considering they are the ones with the most to lose should Iran get a nuclear weapon. By attacking Iranian scientists, it makes Iran look bad, Iran then feels that it has to make some show of strength or competency, and either attacks Israel, or they close off the straight of Hormuz. This is all a ploy on the part of Israel and I for one think its bull shit.

As much as Iran is the biggest boogeyman of the moment right now I really do think that the U.S. leaders want to just live and let live as much as possible for now. Not only for the best interest of the nation but their best self-interest politically.

War-mongering is heavily not the favorite in the U.S. once everyone realized what a shitstorm Iraq was and probably won't be for quite a long time unless someone launches an attack on us first.

As for going after the scientists is as normal and acceptable as enemy soldiers... Fuck the guy who wrote that article.

If they keep killing those scientists, it'll have a fear-effect. This isn't about nuclear weapons, this is about any kind of nuclear capability.

SneeringCanuck:
Considering that it's an apartheid state ...yes I do believe that such a nation should be blasted, burnt and purged from the face of the earth.

Laying aside everything else for a moment, I'm not sure that a nation oppressing some of its citizens on racial grounds should be listed amongst reasons for killing all of its citizens.

thaluikhain:
Laying aside everything else for a moment, I'm not sure that a nation oppressing some of its citizens on racial grounds should be listed amongst reasons for killing all of its citizens.

If there are no citizens left to oppress, the oppression ceases. Makes perfect sense. Judge Death approves of this logical approach.

Katatori-kun:
No one should be fair game for assassination. Assassins might make for cool video game characters, but it's kinda hard to argue for the rule of law and human rights out of one side of your mouth while saying the extra-judicial killing of politically-inconvenient civilians is acceptable out of the other.

Politically inconvenient? That's a stretch, I think. That scientist was potentially inconvenient to Israel's security, not the electoral health of its ruling party. Targeting a component of Iran's nuclear program isn't really the same thing as targeting protesters. Given that there is a difference, it's really not hard to speak the two different messages at all.

Now, I could see your point if you were referring to Israeli suppression of crowds of rockthrowing Arabs, but that seems not to be the issue. Iran has a problem with the human rights of Iranians. That's substantially less defensible (from Iran's point of view) than having a problem with the human rights of people of other nations.

While I do think it's probably Israel there is one other possibility. I don't imagine Iran's arab neighbours are too pleased with the thought of a nuclear Iran either. There also isn't a shortage of people who know how to make car bombs in some of those countries. Money + terrorist = dead scientists?

Argh, fucking stupid capcha and triple posts...

ravensheart18:
While I do think it's probably Israel there is one other possibility. I don't imagine Iran's arab neighbours are too pleased with the thought of a nuclear Iran either. There also isn't a shortage of people who know how to make car bombs in some of those countries. Money + terrorist = dead scientists?

If you are going down that route, why look for people outside Iran?

Nuclear weaponry is no small thing to dabble with. Perhaps locals don't want to give the US/Israel and excuse to bomb their cities, or are worried exactly which Iranians will have the devices?

Blah blah blah H2O: Just add water blah...

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

Anyway why take out a single scientist? Yeah it might impede them a bit but its not worth the time and money it must of taken to assassinate him. Plus a scientist is a civilian so targeting him sends the wrong message. Computer viruses are fine, sabotage is fine, even an airstrike to destroy or damage a military facility or some centrifuges is fine. Assassinating a civilian is just counterproductive, cost inefficient, and oh yeah, highly unethical.

As for nuclear scientists being fair game? Probably not but it doesnt matter, nobody f*cks or tries to f*ck with Israel, those guys are paranoid, its almost as if they are surrounded by people who want to kill them.

The CIA actually HIRES other intelligence agencies to do murders. Its so they can deny they killed anyone, but can still order a hit. They could have hired Israel to do it. In fact, they could have hired anyone.

Ultratwinkie:

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

Anyway why take out a single scientist? Yeah it might impede them a bit but its not worth the time and money it must of taken to assassinate him. Plus a scientist is a civilian so targeting him sends the wrong message. Computer viruses are fine, sabotage is fine, even an airstrike to destroy or damage a military facility or some centrifuges is fine. Assassinating a civilian is just counterproductive, cost inefficient, and oh yeah, highly unethical.

As for nuclear scientists being fair game? Probably not but it doesnt matter, nobody f*cks or tries to f*ck with Israel, those guys are paranoid, its almost as if they are surrounded by people who want to kill them.

The CIA actually HIRES other intelligence agencies to do murders. Its so they can deny they killed anyone, but can still order a hit. They could have hired Israel to do it. In fact, they could have hired anyone.

If we are getting into speculation then I wont be satisfied with any scenario that doesnt involve the CIA working together with the secret alien alliance. Seriously though you are making speculation without any evidence. It could have been anyone.

Ultratwinkie:
The CIA actually HIRES other intelligence agencies to do murders. Its so they can deny they killed anyone, but can still order a hit. They could have hired Israel to do it. In fact, they could have hired anyone.

There's a lot to bash about American intelligence services, but let's not start quoting Infowars nonsense, okay?

CAMDAWG:
Now, I thoroughly disagree with this guy, and in my opinion, this guy was still a civilian.

Only in the sense that he wore no uniform. The line gets really blurry if someone is working for the military at a military project at a military base.

Actually, I think according to the laws of war, the guy would be considered an unpriviledged combatant, as he is a civilian being directly commanded by the military and working for the military.

Also there's such a thing as actions having consequences. The guy is helping Iran's nuclear program, it's most strategic most important military project, which will lead to the development of nuclear weapons.
When one is that directly involved in military matters it's not possible to hide behind a labcoat, much like you can't hide behind a uniform if you commit war crimes.

The guy can not be seen as a scientist really. Developing weapons is not science, especially not weapons that are ethically completely wrong, like nuclear weapons.

Seekster:

Terrorism is deliberately targeting civilians to achieve a political objective. Israel does not do this

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

I'm just going to leave this here. Hopefully you will see how you have contradicted yourself.

My guess is that you'll give me an explanation as to why Israel targeting civilians to achieve a political objective isn't Terrorism though. Looking forward to it!

Blablahb:

The guy can not be seen as a scientist really. Developing weapons is not science, especially not weapons that are ethically completely wrong, like nuclear weapons.

It's a good job that Iran isn't developing nuclear weapons then, isn't it?

I'm sure Seekster and Ravensheart will be along shortly to tell you how they're developing the capability to develop weapons. It's different, or so I'm told. You don't want to be accused of being misleading with your posts.

Amnestic:

Seekster:

Terrorism is deliberately targeting civilians to achieve a political objective. Israel does not do this

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

I'm just going to leave this here. Hopefully you will see how you have contradicted yourself.

My guess is that you'll give me an explanation as to why Israel targeting civilians to achieve a political objective isn't Terrorism though. Looking forward to it!

Ah I see what you did there. Of course if you ask Israel "Oh no we didnt do that".

I suppose targeted assassination of civilians does count as terrorism though again, terrorists try and maximize civilian casualties, clearly the Israelis (assuming they were responsible) were only interested in taking out certain individuals. Good point anyway Amne.

Seekster:

I suppose targeted assassination of civilians does count as terrorism though again, terrorists try and maximize civilian casualties, clearly the Israelis (assuming they were responsible) were only interested in taking out certain individuals. Good point anyway Amne.

I would contest the bolded point. Far more likely is that terrorists try to maximise the effect of their attack. 'Effect' could be interpreted as 'casualties' or it could be interpreted as 'political ramifications'.

When the IRA attacked the Prime Minister's residence, were they seeking the maximum casualties? Doubtful. There were better targets they could've chosen. If a terrorist targeted the U.S. President, again, would they be going for the maximum casualties? Again, doubtful. Bombing a tube station would probably give you a higher casualty rate, especially considering the security you'd have to go through to get to the President vs. security on a tube station.

No, the political effects of those attacks are what they desire. Mass casualties can be the vector for the political effect, but they aren't necessarily. Likewise with this carbombing attack.

Amnestic:
It's a good job that Iran isn't developing nuclear weapons then, isn't it?

Aren't they? I haven't missed anything I hope? Last time I checked, Iran was developing nuclear facilities, of which it claims to be purely for power, but can be used to develop nuclear weapons just as easily, and of which some facilities aren't necessary for nuclear power, which are ruled by the military, and built into a mountain to safeguard against airstrikes.

Especially that last bit; why would a power plant need to be bomb proof? Anyway, so there's not conclusive proof they're building nuclear weapons, but it sure looks like they are, and it's not like the allegations just dropped out of thin air, those are probably from informants who know what they're on about.

Seekster:

Amnestic:

Seekster:

Terrorism is deliberately targeting civilians to achieve a political objective. Israel does not do this

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

I'm just going to leave this here. Hopefully you will see how you have contradicted yourself.

My guess is that you'll give me an explanation as to why Israel targeting civilians to achieve a political objective isn't Terrorism though. Looking forward to it!

Ah I see what you did there. Of course if you ask Israel "Oh no we didnt do that".

I suppose targeted assassination of civilians does count as terrorism though again, terrorists try and maximize civilian casualties, clearly the Israelis (assuming they were responsible) were only interested in taking out certain individuals. Good point anyway Amne.

There is also this.

edit:

Article:
A series of CIA memos describes how Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit members of the terrorist organization Jundallah to fight their covert war against Iran.
...

Since Obama's initial order, U.S. intelligence services have received clearance to cooperate with Israel on a number of classified intelligence-gathering operations focused on Iran's nuclear program, according to a currently serving officer. These operations are highly technical in nature and do not involve covert actions targeting Iran's infrastructure or political or military leadership.

"We don't do bang and boom," a recently retired intelligence officer said. "And we don't do political assassinations."

Israel regularly proposes conducting covert operations targeting Iranians, but is just as regularly shut down, according to retired and current intelligence officers. "They come into the room and spread out their plans, and we just shake our heads," one highly placed intelligence source said, "and we say to them -- 'Don't even go there. The answer is no.'"

Seekster:
My money is on Israel, too competent to be the CIA.

You know neither would do something so obvious, because it would kinda give away that he was killed by some organization. IRL usually what they do is they fake a coup, or kill them through some more natural way like inspiring a heart attack or getting a car crash, that way no one would notice it was their doing.

But then again I guess another good way would be to blame it on native criminals.

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