So... Dog fighting

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demonjazz:
Why do people think it's so bad. If you have ever seen two dogs chances are that they wanted to kill each other. Dog fighting is really just a way to let your dogs do what they want. And most dogs probably see it as more fun than threatening or scary

Dog fighting involves cruelly training and driving animals to savage each other in a way that is not very representative of "natural" behaviour at all.

Dogs are social creatures that live in (mostly) mutually supportive, co-operative packs. So no, dogs do not generally want to kill each other. In the wild, dogs might fight to assert pack dominance, or packs might fight each other to defend territory. These fights rarely involve serious injury or death; the outmatched dog submits or flees before that point.

image

Yeah! Dogfighting may be outdated but it is still pretty *whisper in ear* Whats that? *whisper* Ooohh, that kind of dog fighting.

Yeah, I don't think anyone really thinks thats okay around here.

I have no words to express the outrage at the amount of ignorance in this post.

Please tell me this is a joke, because I really dont want to believve that a person can really be this stupid.

When did Michael Vick find the forums?

Are you really going to sit there and try to tell us that it's in a dog's nature to violently kill and main other dogs, because that's complete bullshit. Dogfighting is a terrible crime, and those involved with it are the lowest denominator of human beings. Sure, dogs can fight, but one side will back down, and know its place. Very rarely will you see a dog kill another dog unless they are other factors at play like starvation. No dog has ever been born a killing machine, they are trained that way by humans. Dogs are man's best friend for a reason, they're social creatures who love interaction, and thrive in a nurturing environment.

To beat up a human is bad enough, at least they can fight back, but brainwashing dogs and torturing them to turn them into fighters, that's fucking despicable.

demonjazz:

dmase:
I've never seen a dog happy to have his throat ripped out by another dog. And the things people do to the dogs to train the for the fights is cruel.

While some of the things are cruel it's still in the dog's nature to fight

Knight Templar:

I've seen some dogs act aggressive but never seen any dog attempt to kill another, nevermind wish to be killed.

Not wish to be killed but to have the fun of fighting. and I must just live in a weird neighborhood than

thaluikhain:
Er, cause it's purposefeully injuring animals for no reason other than the entertainment of the spectators?

And rugby is the same thing except with people

So because its the nature of humans to have conflicts, and from the sound of things you would be fine with what happen in the Balkans in the 90's or in Rwanada, correct? I mean according to you, because its "natural" it's ok, right?

demonjazz:
Why do people think it's so bad. If you have ever seen two dogs chances are that they wanted to kill each other. Dog fighting is really just a way to let your dogs do what they want. And most dogs probably see it as more fun than threatening or scary

Um no dogs are pack animals, they don't all want to kill each other. Just like wolves don't all want to kill each other. I'm pretty sure fighting to the death isn't FUN for the dog it's sick and it's wrong.

Shock and Awe:
image

That's why I came here as well.

But now that I'm around... I don't think dog fighting is anything worthy of legalization. But I'd very much like to see dancing monkeys in suits and bears on monocyles brought back!

Firstly all dogs have different temperaments and personalities.
Secondly NOT ALL DOGS "LOVE" OR "LIKE" FIGHTING. Thats just a straight up dumb comment for a variaty of reasons the most obvious being that not all dogs breeds were bred for fighting. In fact we have bred specific breeds and specific breed lines for their lack of desire to fight.
Third, just because they are able to fight doesn't mean they want to. I have a mallet it doesn't mean I wanna wack my roommate upside the head because its fun.
Fourth,Anyone who knows anything about dogs knows the difference between aggression and play fighting.
fifth- If you know anything about dogs, and this sums up everything I have said, you know that they can be very sensitive and easily mentally damaged. Fighting isn't fun. Fighting for them is survival. Dog fights take two abused dogs and turn on each other until one is usually dead. It's not too dogs getting a bit rough, it's fight or flight. They have been trained to handle every situation as a fight situation and are thus HORRIBLY stressed out.

evilthecat:
Stop right there.

Dogs are social animals. They were bred from wolves, who are pack hunters. A wolf pack might kill a lone wolf if it invades their territory, but wolves will not square off and fight each other to the death mano et mano like in a dogfighting ring.

Well, all there is to be said in this topic, right there.

Dogs generally don't kill eachother. It took specially breeding dog breeds for agression to create that. And even then they're put in enclosed spaces in a dogfight so the loser can't withdraw in time and the winner has to kill.

manic_depressive13:
It's not that hard. If I may ask, how often do you eat meat? A lot of people eat it daily, when in reality the ideal quantity is one serving (about 100 grams) a week.

Enjoy your iron deficiency.

El Chiwawa Loco:
Please tell me this is a joke, because I really dont want to believve that a person can really be this stupid.

Maybe not stupid, but unknowing. Most people don't understand dogs or their communication, both dog owners and people without dogs.
Seen so often that a correcting bite (without any power so nobody gets injured) is interpreted as fighting or a dog being vicious. Sometimes even playing is interpreted as agression. Dog jumps with it's front legs almost flat and barks, clearly inviting to play, and people will think it's agression.

BiscuitTrouser:

TheIronRuler:

.
You raise an animal so you can slaughter it. In my book this isn't too far away from dog fighting. However the line that is drawn between the two is the law. Dog Fighting is a form of blood-sport which always involves illegal gambling. If you can cement the practice into something akin to horse racing or the like, you won't hear any of my complaints. These animals are bred and trained to kill, no difference from breeding animals to be killed for their dead bodies.

Sorry but no. Not at all.

"These animals are bred and trained to kill, no difference from breeding animals to be killed for their dead bodies."

So free range farms and battery farms have no difference at all then? The fact that they do and the demand for free range has increased shows clearly there is definitive variance between HOW you raise and animal and HOW that animal is going to die and that variance matters to people, including me.

The line is drawn on fair treatment to the animal. If you wanna go to a free range farm and then to a dog fighting pit and tell me conditions are the same you fucking go ahead, and bring pictures to prove it. But i doubt you can. Horse raising doesnt require abusing the horses as a condition to make them want to run. The horses dont always die a slow drawn out death from slashes and bites where they bleed out slowly after every race.

Thats just a blatant strawman. The difference isnt what they are bred to do or that they are both not bred for a purpose. The difference is that one is treated with respect and leads a normal life before being killed painlessly as nicely as possible.

The other is that the dog is beaten and abused to induce aggression, pumped with steroids and then forced to fight another dog in a pit until one rips enough skin off the other to let it bleed out slowly. This is comparable to the worst battery farms which i am STRONGLY morally opposed to.

The enjoyment they bring is different too. Am i allowed to purposefully torture my dog for my amusement as well? Like no other dogs involved. Under your logic is it legal for me, with sadistic glee to remove my dogs eyes and replace them with salt before kicking it around my house to death just for my own amusement. And then to do this with a new dog the next day. Under the idea that "All cruelty for fun is acceptable" should there be NO animal cruelty laws at all? Should any sadist be able to extract their sick desires, no matter HOW cruel, on any domestic animal they please as many times as they please?

THATS similar to dog fighting in my book.

just thought i would add this here for you guys.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/allaboutanimals/farm/slaughter/factfile

i think dogfighting being illegal is a good thing.
yeah we should not sugarcoat what happens when an animal is slaughtered but we should at least try to stop animal cruelty.

manic_depressive13:

BiscuitTrouser:
If it doesnt then... is it hard being vegetarian?

It's not that hard. If I may ask, how often do you eat meat? A lot of people eat it daily, when in reality the ideal quantity is one serving (about 100 grams) a week. Honestly, if people just cut down to a reasonable serving of meat it would make a massive difference, and less animals being slaughtered would likely lead to more humane slaughter.

Sorry for the late reply. Ive been looking into it. I feel that at the moment i eat quite a bit of meat. Every other day seems about average for at least 1 meal. Although over half of my favorite meals are vegetarian. I like your idea of eating less meat slowly. Id like to start there. I REALLY like nuts which are a good source of protien yes? So i could increase those in my diet. Ill just try and eat one portion of meat in a single meal once every other day now regularly for a week or two. After that ill make it once every 3 days. I dont think im ready to be a vegetarian all at once, im pretty damn used to meat. I just wanna give less meat a try in increasing stages. How did you start?

TheIronRuler:
You raise an animal so you can slaughter it. In my book this isn't too far away from dog fighting. However the line that is drawn between the two is the law. Dog Fighting is a form of blood-sport which always involves illegal gambling. If you can cement the practice into something akin to horse racing or the like, you won't hear any of my complaints. These animals are bred and trained to kill, no difference from breeding animals to be killed for their dead bodies.

Well, one major difference is that production animals have a pretty good/good life and unless they're killed in the archaic jewish or islamic religious slaughter methods, their killing is humane. In dog fighting the animals slowly kill eachother by inflicting wound after wound and the losing animal slowly bleeds out across minutes, while in a lot of pain and stress. That makes it different.

Also, in order to make a dog agressive enough, like noted before, you need to torture it extensively. Production animals obviously don't undergo that.

Also food is something essential, which justifies that. Watching bloodsport and gambling isn't needed, and thus isn't a goal that can justify something.

Dog fighting, I feel, is something that should warrant a more severe punishment than is already given. As in, the people involved should be thrown to their own dogs.

...Okay, okay, maybe that's a bit harsh, but speaking as a the owner of a beautiful pit bull mix, I think dog fighting is out and out cruelty perpetrated by ignorant people.

Batou667:

manic_depressive13:

BiscuitTrouser:
If it doesnt then... is it hard being vegetarian?

It's not that hard. If I may ask, how often do you eat meat? A lot of people eat it daily, when in reality the ideal quantity is one serving (about 100 grams) a week. Honestly, if people just cut down to a reasonable serving of meat it would make a massive difference, and less animals being slaughtered would likely lead to more humane slaughter.

I'll regret this, but...

Citation please?

Okay, so I slightly misremembered the facts. It's fish twice a week, with plant material providing the protein for the rest of the week. Red meat has been linked to all sorts of cancers and heart disease and while poultry is okay, it can often be high in trans fats and other unpleasant things. There's no health justification for choosing chicken over lentils.

Also, cooking methods such as grilling, frying or barbequing red meat and poultry increases the risk of certain cancers.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid-full-story/index.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618522

Blablahb:
Enjoy your iron deficiency.

There's iron in loads of things, from nuts to spinach and other dark green, leafy vegetables.

Enjoy your colorectal cancer.

BiscuitTrouser:
Sorry for the late reply. Ive been looking into it. I feel that at the moment i eat quite a bit of meat. Every other day seems about average for at least 1 meal. Although over half of my favorite meals are vegetarian. I like your idea of eating less meat slowly. Id like to start there. I REALLY like nuts which are a good source of protien yes? So i could increase those in my diet. Ill just try and eat one portion of meat in a single meal once every other day now regularly for a week or two. After that ill make it once every 3 days. I dont think im ready to be a vegetarian all at once, im pretty damn used to meat. I just wanna give less meat a try in increasing stages. How did you start?

Yeah, nuts are a good source. Nuts, lentils and tofu are my favourites, though there are plenty of other sources of complete plant protein.

I just kind of stopped eating meat one day about two years ago. The idea of eating meat never sat right with me ever since I was a little kid. Soon after I started going to uni I became a vegetarian. I was autonomous enough and had my own income, so I decided quite suddenly that it was about time I started running my life the way I wanted to. Before that my mother had always guilted/ forced me into eating meat by saying I was being stupid and pathetic, and that she wasn't going to cook one meal for the family and a separate meal for me, and threatened to deliberately starve me by not buying anything substantial for me to eat until I started eating meat again.

Mind you, she went pretty bonkers when I finally made my decision, but there wasn't really anything she could do. I used to eat meat pretty much every day.

manic_depressive13:
There's iron in loads of things, from nuts to spinach and other dark green, leafy vegetables.

Enjoy your colorectal cancer.

Just not enough, and the plant-based kind absorbs a lot slower. Because of that it's impossible to not eat meat and still get enough iron, unless you happen to be male and a weakling. (since having a period and having muscles is what drives up the need for iron)

Queu a bunch of ignorant vegenazis who go "But I'm under 30, vegetarian, and still not dead, so clearly you're wrong about that deficiency blablahb!"....

Blablahb:
Just not enough, and the plant-based kind absorbs a lot slower. Because of that it's impossible to not eat meat and still get enough iron, unless you happen to be male and a weakling. (since having a period and having muscles is what drives up the need for iron)

Eating less meat does not mean eating no meat. The original conversation was about eating a low meat diet, not a vegetarian diet.

But regarding vegetarianism, people who have problems with iron deficiency or vitamin B deficiency, who are really not that common to begin with, can also have supplements to enable them to live a vegetarian lifestyle if they want. It's not terribly expensive when compared to the savings vegetarians can make in food costs.

Excessive meat consumption is probably killing far more people in the developed world right now than inadequate meat consumption, and is certainly costing a lot more in medical costs. There are a huge range of health complications associated with high-protein, high-fat, meat heavy diets.

So yeah, vegetarianism may be bad for some people (unless they use artificial supplements) but excessive meat consumption is not good for anyone.

It's also economically unsustainable to eat as much meat as we currently do in the developed world, meat has a very high cost in terms of bio-productive land. So yeah, there are serious ecological and human costs in the pipeline unless the average diet in the developed world becomes much less meat-intensive.

What in the world does eating meat have to do with Dog fighting?

Frission:
What in the world does eating meat have to do with Dog fighting?

Eating more than a healthy amount of meat is basically tastebud entertainment at the expense of the lives of animals.

Not that I mind that, of course.

demonjazz:
Why do people think it's so bad. If you have ever seen two dogs chances are that they wanted to kill each other. Dog fighting is really just a way to let your dogs do what they want. And most dogs probably see it as more fun than threatening or scary

Get the hell off of my internet. You can use only MySpace and Geocities until you get the shit beaten out of you because "chances are that [you] wanted" to be killed by him.

I realize it's their nature, but we shouldn't let it happen for entertainment.

Blablahb:

manic_depressive13:
There's iron in loads of things, from nuts to spinach and other dark green, leafy vegetables.

Enjoy your colorectal cancer.

Just not enough, and the plant-based kind absorbs a lot slower. Because of that it's impossible to not eat meat and still get enough iron, unless you happen to be male and a weakling. (since having a period and having muscles is what drives up the need for iron)

Queu a bunch of ignorant vegenazis who go "But I'm under 30, vegetarian, and still not dead, so clearly you're wrong about that deficiency blablahb!"....

Well, according to this:

http://ameliaburton.com.au/2009/06/how-much-iron-do-we-need-what-are-the-best-sources-of-iron.html

In order to get my daily amount of iron (18mg) I would need to eat 450g of grilled steak PER DAY. It's not recommended that a person eat more than 500g of red meat PER WEEK. I'm ignoring the liver, kidney and molluscs because I never ate those even when I ate meat- I thought they tasted disgusting, and I think most people would agree. So anyway, 450g of red meat every day is a stupidly unhealthy amount of meat.

Short of the livers and kidneys, which I'm happy to bet most people avoid, you're just as well off eat eggs or museli as you are eating lamb or beef mince.

http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/vitamins/iron.html#Iron%20Sources

Here's another source showing that short of molluscs and organ meats, lentils and spinach provide more iron than most other meats. Dry cereals are a better source than liver provided you eat foods high in vitamin C that can help you absorb non-heme iron better.

I have no problem with it, and here's why: entertainment is a slight benefit to us humans. I might like to see a dogfight sometime. It sounds like a thrilling spectacle. The death and injury of dogs, however, is of no consequence to us humans. So if you have a slight benefit and no drawbacks, you should do it.

One other consideration for legalizing dogfighting would be regulation. You see, dogs bred and trained for fighting are initially indistinguishable for other dogs. Somebody might unknowingly take one as a pet, only to have them attack somebody. If dogfighting were legal, it would be easier to keep fighting dogs separate from the general dog population. A dog could be certified as a fighting-dog from its pedigree, and it could be made illegal to own or sell one as a pet, if you didn't have the proper fighting-dog-handling license.

How did this thread come from dog fights to vegetarianism? I'm probably gonna hate myself for dropping in here, but, ehm...

I don't have a problem with dogs fighting every now and then in their natural habitat. A cage is not their natural habitat.

Blablahb:

El Chiwawa Loco:
Please tell me this is a joke, because I really dont want to believve that a person can really be this stupid.

Maybe not stupid, but unknowing. Most people don't understand dogs or their communication, both dog owners and people without dogs.
Seen so often that a correcting bite (without any power so nobody gets injured) is interpreted as fighting or a dog being vicious. Sometimes even playing is interpreted as agression. Dog jumps with it's front legs almost flat and barks, clearly inviting to play, and people will think it's agression.

He might be talking about that, but I'm pretty sure he was actually talking about organized dog fighting. As in dogs being trained and/or raised to rip each others throat out.

Vegosiux:
How did this thread come from dog fights to vegetarianism? I'm probably gonna hate myself for dropping in here, but, ehm...

I don't have a problem with dogs fighting every now and then in their natural habitat. A cage is not their natural habitat.

In there natural habitats maybe, but demonjazz is talking about organized dog fighting where dogs are trained to straight-up murder each other.

KingGolem:
I have no problem with it, and here's why: entertainment is a slight benefit to us humans. I might like to see a dogfight sometime. It sounds like a thrilling spectacle. The death and injury of dogs, however, is of no consequence to us humans. So if you have a slight benefit and no drawbacks, you should do it.

Please tell me your joking, because if not then i'm ashamed of the human race.

El Chiwawa Loco:
Please tell me your joking, because if not then i'm ashamed of the human race.

What, then, is the point of a discussion if you treat opinions contrary to your own with incredulity? I am not joking.

Rabid Animal Rights Activist here. You know, I really hate Dog Fighting because it's a disgusting and brutal act that involves animal suffering for the sake of entertainment. But you know what? I can't help but think that a lot of these people who decry dog-fighting because it involves the suffering of animals for the sake of entertainment probably also don't care about all the animal suffering that goes on in either factory farms or fur farms. And you know, compared to both of them I'm pretty sure Dog Fighting is probably not even half as bad in some cases.

I'd love nothing more than to throw people who promote dog fighting into a pit with other people who promote dog fighting. Really, I don't think there'd be a greater form of justice. The truth is though, maybe they aren't even half as despicable as we make them out to be. Whenever someone orders a big mac at MacDonalds, that entire argument defending factory farming 'Because we need to eat' just completely falls apart. Because by that point it's not about nutrition, it's because people like the taste of it - because they want it. And that self - entitled logic is usually kind of a reoccurring theme in defending animal suffering. It's the exact same justification people who watch dog - fighting use. In fact, why don't I compare the arguments for defending factory farming, fur farming, and dog fighting all together?

Dog-fighting: It's a free country, whine whine whine. Don't infringe on my rights, whine whine whine. Screw you guys, I should be able to do what I want, because I've got the money to pay for it and I want to watch it.

Factory Farming: Don't infringe on my rights, bla bla bla, screw you guys, I should be able to eat what I want, because I've got the money to pay for it and I want to eat it.

Fur Farming: Don't infringe on my rights, wail wail wail, screw you guys, I should be able to wear what I want, because I've got the money to pay for it and I want to wear it.

Okay, so maybe my insane animal rights bias is clearly there. And obviously, I'm doing my damnedest to make these people look as unlikeable as possible. Well, except factory farm people - they got off easily. But you know, I think the general idea is still there. Because they don't like having other people telling them what they can and can't do, and because they want something.

So there we go, here are the three points I'm trying to make here:

1. If you truly believe that dog-fighting is terrible, then don't get pissed off if some self -righteous asshole vegan tells you that you shouldn't eat meat. Because like it or not, you're not any different from that person who promotes dog fighting. Just like them, you're telling people what they can and can't do. Unlike a vegan though, you don't exactly have the high ground on ethics involving animal rights. In a way, it's almost like an abstract moral food chain. Except instead of eating each other, we just got a lot of bitching. How funny is it that with the contempt we look down at people who promote dog - fighting, we might just be put in their position and respond with nothing less than the exact same words?

Note - Despite me being a pissed off animal rights activist, I'm actually not a stereotypical vegan that goes about telling people they shouldn't eat meat. Nope, instead I just bitch about ethics in general.

2. Before you promote any form of cruelty towards any animal or person, just consider that you deserve no less than what happens to them. Just some food for thought.

3. Don't be a douchebag that decries animal rights. At a time, we allowed insanely cruel shit to be done to animals - those things no longer exist. Today, we do cruel shit to animals. Eventually, those things will no longer exist either. Like it or not, but animal rights is more than a bunch of whiney, self - righteous punks like me. It's a part of our society, and not just a small one either. If you're on the side of history that opposes saving the lives of thousands of animals just so you can wear a fur coat, than you're going to be on the side of history that's seen as these self - absorbed savages. You will become the bear - baiters of your generation. And considering the horrible things you've done, you probably got off easily with just being considered a backwards minded barbarian.

lSHaDoW-FoXl:
I can't help but think that a lot of these people who decry dog-fighting because it involves the suffering of animals for the sake of entertainment probably also don't care about all the animal suffering that goes on in either factory farms or fur farms.

I think that's slightly uncharitable.

I think some people maybe don't understand these things as well as you do, but that's not the same thing as not caring. It's very difficult, unless you grow up in a rural area or are a butcher, to make the connection between animals walking around and the minced up paste which goes in your hamburger. For most people, meat is just stuff.. It comes from a supermarket and it tastes nice, but the concept of how it gets there is difficult to really imagine. Additionally, most people just don't have much contact with living farm animals, which really can't be said for dogs.

Does that mean people don't care? No. Of course not. I think everyone (besides maybe the people on this thread who genuinely don't care about animal welfare at all) cares, or at least would care if they understood. We'd all like to believe that the animals we're eating had blissful lives of roaming and grazing followed by a painless death, the problem is that we're far too trusting that this is the case. It's amazing the effect that putting "farming" on something has in terms of making it sound legitimate. Farming, to most people, implies knowledge and hard work and wide open spaces, it doesn't imply locking 5000 pigs in a dark shed and feeding them steroids, or ripping the skin off a still-living creature.

Actually, the same is true of these dog fighting arguments. They're all based on some kind of ignorance. Demonjazz imagines that dogs actually want to fight and dog fighting is just letting them behave naturally, which is bullshit. KingGolem imagines that dogfighting is all about entertainment and spectacle, like maybe the dogs whip out their little matador capes and fencing swords and duel each other in a lightning fast contest of skill and wits. Again, bullshit, it's about gambling. The actual spectacle of watching dogs fight is pretty sad and pathetic, and given how powerful most fighting dogs are it won't even take very long for them to seriously injure each other. Dog-fighting wasn't even a particularly popular blood sport back when it was legal, all the dogs we use for it today were bred for baiting larger animals.

But what's annoying about the "you must be vegan or you don't care about animal welfare" argument is not just that that "it's preachy!" or "it violates my right to eat meat!", it's that it assumes there is only one way to care about animal welfare. I think there's a clear argument that dog fighting harms society. I personally think there's a pretty clear argument that factory farming or even fur farming harms society in a kind of indirect way. Does meat-eating in general harm society? That's where the logic starts to look hazy for me, and maybe I will be on the wrong side of history, but we'll have to wait for history to be judge that.

Last year I saw two dogs trying to kill each other, or at least seriously injure each other, and it was not a pretty sight. The owners were trying to pull both of them away as it obviously wasn't intentional, and the dogs would keep grabbing the other's head in their mouth. The worst thing was probably the noises of pain they made, I'll never quite forget that.

And anyway, there's something particularly stupid about training something that is descended from a wolf to be very good at killing/injuring things.

manic_depressive13:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid-full-story/index.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618522

Legitimate sources in lieu of personal opinions presented as fact and espoused with the ferocity that you'd use to defend your mother's honour? I'm reporting you for derailing a perfectly god flame thread.

Just kidding. Interesting reading, especially when compared to the information given in sports and fitness circles (protein is good, the more the better, aim for 1 gram protein per pound bodyweight, animal protein is higher-quality and better assimilated than soy protein, etc).

One their are no regulations, and dogs have a very high chance to die vs wresting. Its also animal cruelty, and has no point other than be a form of entertainment, and betting.

evilthecat:
Dog-fighting wasn't even a particularly popular blood sport back when it was legal

Indeed. Dog fighting only really became popular after the banning of baiting-type blood sports in the UK because it was much easier to secretly hold a dog fight than, say, a bear baiting.

all the dogs we use for it today were bred for baiting larger animals.

Not exactly... Most of the breeds used in dogfighting didn't arise until after (sometimes well after) the banning of baiting-type blood sport had been banned in the UK. They do, however, have common ancestors from the 'old english bulldog' (extinct but with a recreated breed now existing) and the 'bull and terrier' dogs (old english bulldog crossed with some form of terrier) of the baiting sports days.

Of the 'fighting' breeds without this common heritage, almost all were guard and/or large game hunting dogs with a mastif of some type in their heritage.

Naturally the prevalance of various breeds in the dogfighting scene changes from country to country.

But what's annoying about the "you must be vegan or you don't care about animal welfare"

What I find funny about that is most of the vegans who've tried that routine with me have been wearing at least one piece of clothing made of leather at the time (usually a pair of Doc Martens)... and when called out on it try and bullshit their way out of it by claiming that the animal had already been killed for meat... Not saying all, most or even many vegans are like that but the ones who I've encountered who were like that have spent all the credibility for vegans I had to spare. Not that it matters... most of them freak out when they learn I've worked as a slaughterman in an abattoir.

evilthecat:
But what's annoying about the "you must be vegan or you don't care about animal welfare" argument is not just that that "it's preachy!" or "it violates my right to eat meat!", it's that it assumes there is only one way to care about animal welfare. I think there's a clear argument that dog fighting harms society. I personally think there's a pretty clear argument that factory farming or even fur farming harms society in a kind of indirect way. Does meat-eating in general harm society? That's where the logic starts to look hazy for me, and maybe I will be on the wrong side of history, but we'll have to wait for history to be judge that.

I don't see it. I don't think there is a clear argument that dog fighting harms society. You definitely didn't provide one. The only thing dog fighting clearly harms is dogs, and I think that's reason enough to forbid it.

I can't see what argument you can use against the mistreatment of animals that doesn't reek of hypocrisy when you fail to apply it to the slaughter of animals. Either animals are nonentities that should be subject to our use/misuse, or they should be granted enough consideration for us to refrain from causing them arbitrary harm (and yes, death constitues harm). You don't get to draw the line wherever you see fit. Just because you get no pleasure out of animal suffering, but you quite like the taste of meat, doesn't mean the former is bad only insofar as you may still enjoy the latter. That's just selfish, faulty reasoning. Someone who chooses to torture dogs when there are obvious alternatives is no worse than someone who chooses to cut an animal's life short when there are obvious alternatives.

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