Sony and Microsoft Do It Again!

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

I like the looks of Natal, if it can actually pull off what they're showing and working towards in a flawless manner.

Half the problem with Wii motion controls is figuring out just what motion makes the game do what you're trying to do, then when you think you've got it, it isn't consistent.

ThisNewGuy:

And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control.

Actually, that's exactly what the motion plus does.. gives you 1-1 control. You can see that in the Red Steel 2 demo.

To be honest, I tuned into the Sony demo part way through and at first thought it was some game company showing off that they'd developed a game using two Wii-motes with motion plus, because everything they showed as a demo of how their remotes to be released "in the future" worked is exactly what the Wii-motion-plus-motes are capable of now. And that's the tough bit Sony has.. they're just putting this together now, and it's going to have to come as an add on to the already expensive PS3.. I'm thinking the biggest danger is that they'll have missed their market timing, especially after showing off how a Wii-mote SHOULD be used. You know there are developers in that audience who saw the Sony demo and walked out thinking, "Hell.. I can do that now on the Wii.. and have a user-base over twice the size.. probably more than that when you figure how many PS3 owners will actually buy that."

Anoctris:
I don't have a huge LCD/Plasma TV, which in my opinion would be the best way to enjoy games that require you to point something at a screen. Seriously, it's ridiculous pointing a wii-mote at a screen less than 12".

...I can't begin to number how many stree-machine light gun games I've tried to play and had to 'aim off' to score a hit. Most light gun shooter games are 'rail' shooters anyway.

We're very obviously well beyond 1985 and light gun technology. You can't compare this to the good old days in the arcade. The size of your television is irrelevant as long as it is large enough so that you can see clearly (obviously you won't be using a console with a handheld TV). I think any of today's motion controllers have moved well beyond the inaccuracies of light guns as well.

Kwil:

ThisNewGuy:

And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control.

Actually, that's exactly what the motion plus does.. gives you 1-1 control. You can see that in the Red Steel 2 demo.

Actually, I've seen the Red Steel 2 demo. It's not 1-1 control. It's pseudo 1-1. When you are doing any commands, the game's arm is actually your arm, but when you actually perform a slash or a defend, it goes back to regular Wii Mote preset function. It works just like in old Wii Mote games like tennis in Wii Sport. The racket freely follows your movement, but when you issue a swing command, it follows a preset function (so when you just sharply swing the mote but not actually extending the swing like in real tennis, the Miis actually swing harder than if you actually extending the swing).

Whereas, the PSMotion Control showed completely 1-1 fidelity. When the guy swings the sword, the speed, exact positioning of the sword at all times are not preset at all. Same with defending.

Sony and Microsoft can't keep playing catch up or they're going to always be behind. MS and Sony decided they needed to have "Mii's" with the NXE and Home, now they need motion controls too. Just stick to your guns. If you keep spreading out everywhere you're just going to have one huge, expensive clusterfuck that doesn't do anything well.

scotth266:

As far as Sony goes, while they may have released what looks like a blatant ripoff of the Wiimote, I have to give them credit for getting it right from the start. It has a lot of potential if they can back it properly. They stole the thunder away from the WiiMotion Plus, and then some.

tendo82:

Knowing that made Sony's presentation all the more confusing as they seemed to be positioning their air traffic controller wands as a control solution for the hardcore gamer.

I didn't think Wiimote ripoff or air traffic controller at all: when I first saw it, I thought "hey, that looks like on of those ping pong balls they stud someone's suit with when they do motion control."

Which is why I think the Sony motion device *is* targeted directly at the hardcore gamer--it might be less about making games 'easier' like the WiiMote does, and more about giving even more control to the gamer: what could be more 'hardcore' than doing your own motion capture work in real time?

ThisNewGuy:

Kwil:

ThisNewGuy:

And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control.

Actually, that's exactly what the motion plus does.. gives you 1-1 control. You can see that in the Red Steel 2 demo.

Actually, I've seen the Red Steel 2 demo. It's not 1-1 control. It's pseudo 1-1. When you are doing any commands, the game's arm is actually your arm, but when you actually perform a slash or a defend, it goes back to regular Wii Mote preset function. It works just like in old Wii Mote games like tennis in Wii Sport. The racket freely follows your movement, but when you issue a swing command, it follows a preset function (so when you just sharply swing the mote but not actually extending the swing like in real tennis, the Miis actually swing harder than if you actually extending the swing).

Whereas, the PSMotion Control showed completely 1-1 fidelity. When the guy swings the sword, the speed, exact positioning of the sword at all times are not preset at all. Same with defending.

Red Steel 2 began production without motion plus, which is a shame, but it is what it is. If Nintendo asked them to create a tech demo for the motion plus with Red Steel as a template, then you would have seen 1-1.

The Wii Motion Plus is 1-1 control, and it's pretty much been shown through Wii Sports Resort. They hadn't gone into so much detail in Wii Sports resort but then why would they wan't to for a game that's trying to appeal to everyone? Hell even a developer said that the motion plus was 'too sensitive', so what does that say?

L.B. Jeffries:
I'm curious how it's going to play out if the controls can port to other games. Playing an FPS on a Wii is way, way easier than with dual-analog. Are people are going to start bitching when everyone on Halo 3 is making Battle Rifle headshots without batting an eye?

You can't just change the controls on a console, it affects every game and the balance for them when you do it.

Exactly, which is why motion plus support on the Wii has to implemented like it's practically a different controller, and optional support is not an option.

KDR_11k:
Both MS and Sony rely strongly on third parties, they have very little capacity of their own that could be used to go where third parties won't (and they definitely won't, they're failing to capture the market on a system that already has a huge number of extended market gamers, they would never do it on a system that doesn't have that market at all).

Well see that's the problem I foresaw. The answer I personally see is acquisition of developers as second and first parties to be the answer. It's been reported on numerous occasions that Rare has been developing games for Natal for some time now, and while I don't see Natal as being something that can be implemented into mainstream killer app titles, Microsoft are going about that the right way. However cracking the whip on just one developer isn't going to cut it, like (Nin)tendo said:

tendo82:
That's the other issue that I didn't even begin to address: That Nintendo, through it's prowess as a first party developer, was basically able to teach other developers the types of games that would work with the Wii. They were able to lead the way, which is crucial for paradigm shifting technology.

They need to acquire development studios to develop games in house, or show developers the way, and that's if they are willing enough to gamble on such a thing, something that many developers were thinking motion control on the Wii was, a gamble. Which means both companies are going to have to acquire dev studios as second party developers as well as make a push for third parties to do it for them in my opinion. Couple that with the development cost of titles on both consoles, it's risky.

If this were to be added onto killer app titles, I could see them taking an extra six months to a year to develop, so yes maybe in a way they are going to be late to the party.

However I do see them having a great deal of potential, and let's hope they aren't being short sighted on this whole thing. I was still pretty impressed with Natal, but it is going to have to have some unique titles to draw in it's already existing audience (immersive titles I imagine) especially considering that it's lack of controller might be a bit disconnecting, because from what we saw it was aiming at a different audience altogether.

this is crazy why do the feel that they need to do that

At this moment why should they want to focus on a WiiSports-like app. in a presentation?
Just to get a "meh... already seen that crap. They are doing the same. They are imitating Nintendo!" from the press?
Nintendo has already locked down the casuals and off course the Mario/Zelda followers.
Obviously those casuals don't care about precision, HD or online (see the shut-down of SSB) in their gaming machines.
Nintendo did the right thing to gain maximum profit and sold a imprecise motion controller to a non-gaming mass audience.
With WiiM+ we are witnessing their plan to achieve maximum profit going full circle.
What Sony and MS now have to do is to make hardcore games using their new precise motion controls and convince other developers that there is a pay-off if they do the same.
Sony already showed some bow and sword/shield action.
Let's take it to the next level! Make an Elder Scrolls like game that uses this controls!!!

ChromeAlchemist:

ThisNewGuy:

Kwil:

ThisNewGuy:

And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control.

Actually, that's exactly what the motion plus does.. gives you 1-1 control. You can see that in the Red Steel 2 demo.

Actually, I've seen the Red Steel 2 demo. It's not 1-1 control. It's pseudo 1-1. When you are doing any commands, the game's arm is actually your arm, but when you actually perform a slash or a defend, it goes back to regular Wii Mote preset function. It works just like in old Wii Mote games like tennis in Wii Sport. The racket freely follows your movement, but when you issue a swing command, it follows a preset function (so when you just sharply swing the mote but not actually extending the swing like in real tennis, the Miis actually swing harder than if you actually extending the swing).

Whereas, the PSMotion Control showed completely 1-1 fidelity. When the guy swings the sword, the speed, exact positioning of the sword at all times are not preset at all. Same with defending.

Red Steel 2 began production without motion plus, which is a shame, but it is what it is. If Nintendo asked them to create a tech demo for the motion plus with Red Steel as a template, then you would have seen 1-1.

The Wii Motion Plus is 1-1 control, and it's pretty much been shown through Wii Sports Resort. They hadn't gone into so much detail in Wii Sports resort but then why would they wan't to for a game that's trying to appeal to everyone? Hell even a developer said that the motion plus was 'too sensitive', so what does that say?

Even watching Wii Sports Resort. Watch the basketball shootout. It is definitely not 1-1 fidelity. It's definitely you just doing a sorta shoot-ish move and the preset command occurs.

Also, the Gametrailers TV had a table tennis match on Resort, and it is definitely not 1-1. It's just like the old Wii Mote where you just swing whereever you want and the game sees it's left sided or right sided and just do a preset swing for you.

Having said that, I haven't tried the new motion plus, but that's just what I saw from the gameplay videos.

As a former Wii owner I have the following to say:

1. Nintendo never delivered on their promises. I sold my WII when I found out that not only did smash bros. not find a way to implement the new controller gimmick, but was better played with a game cube controller.

2. Microsoft actually presented a novel and interesting piece of technology which is NOTHING like the Wii controller. The Wii controller is a glorified JERK OFF Simulator, Natal is a video input processor better at processing motion and outputting images than the Wii console is at processing anything not painted in pastels with fewer pixels than a palm tree in Crysis.

3. Natal not only does everything the Wii controller can do(including allowing amputees to play;why do you hate the disabled?), it can also transmit live visual data back to the system. This may be cool for gamers, but it will revolutionize computer productivity. Imagine controlling a FPS by actually mimicking holding a weapon and walking within a 360 degree screen, or actually doing anything in that setup (oh wait, that would require a Wii fit board).

Microsoft too late? Bitch, Nintendo wasn't even invited to this party.

Project Natal is just a really sophisticated controler. I was hoping that Sony or Microsoft would come up with a better version of the power glove instead.

That would have been awesome.

360 "sports"!, new version!

I'll wait and see how realistic the Natal promo videos showing multiple people being able to play together without issue are. Not that I'll buy it anyway since there's nothing wrong with a controller for most console games, and the keyboard and mouse are fine for PC gaming. If they've got motion sensing to the level they can distinguish between motions of different people's hands when they're moving in front of each other without getting confused I'll be impressed.

ThisNewGuy:

ChromeAlchemist:

ThisNewGuy:

Kwil:

ThisNewGuy:

And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control.

Actually, that's exactly what the motion plus does.. gives you 1-1 control. You can see that in the Red Steel 2 demo.

Actually, I've seen the Red Steel 2 demo. It's not 1-1 control. It's pseudo 1-1. When you are doing any commands, the game's arm is actually your arm, but when you actually perform a slash or a defend, it goes back to regular Wii Mote preset function. It works just like in old Wii Mote games like tennis in Wii Sport. The racket freely follows your movement, but when you issue a swing command, it follows a preset function (so when you just sharply swing the mote but not actually extending the swing like in real tennis, the Miis actually swing harder than if you actually extending the swing).

Whereas, the PSMotion Control showed completely 1-1 fidelity. When the guy swings the sword, the speed, exact positioning of the sword at all times are not preset at all. Same with defending.

Red Steel 2 began production without motion plus, which is a shame, but it is what it is. If Nintendo asked them to create a tech demo for the motion plus with Red Steel as a template, then you would have seen 1-1.

The Wii Motion Plus is 1-1 control, and it's pretty much been shown through Wii Sports Resort. They hadn't gone into so much detail in Wii Sports resort but then why would they wan't to for a game that's trying to appeal to everyone? Hell even a developer said that the motion plus was 'too sensitive', so what does that say?

Even watching Wii Sports Resort. Watch the basketball shootout. It is definitely not 1-1 fidelity. It's definitely you just doing a sorta shoot-ish move and the preset command occurs.

Also, the Gametrailers TV had a table tennis match on Resort, and it is definitely not 1-1. It's just like the old Wii Mote where you just swing whereever you want and the game sees it's left sided or right sided and just do a preset swing for you.

Having said that, I haven't tried the new motion plus, but that's just what I saw from the gameplay videos.

Ahem. The Capabilities of the system, and how it actually gets used aren't one and the same.
(Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you will or should)

You want to know what Wii motionplus can do?
See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs

(incedentally, this video has been on youtube close to 1 year - Sony would likely have seen it and learned as much as they could from it (and anything else they could find).)

Now tell me that Sony is doing something unique...

And as for Sony getting it right 'first time' - I'd agree with the sentiment if it wasn't for the fact that they've had almost 3 years of observing Nintendo...
I mean, if you've had 3 years to look at your competitor's idea (which you seem to be copying) You'd damn well better create something that improves on it!
It doesn't change the fact that they're not coming up with a new idea, merely trying (hopefully) to implement it more effectively.

Of course, the Wii isn't a new idea as such either. Motion sensing has been around since the 1980's - It's just always been expensive and innefective.
As to accuracy, in 2006, Nintendo themselves said the reason that the 'pointer' function on the Wii came into existence was because the Motion sensor by itself wasn't accurate enough...

CrystalShadow:

Ahem. The Capabilities of the system, and how it actually gets used aren't one and the same.
(Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you will or should)

You want to know what Wii motionplus can do?
See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs

(incedentally, this video has been on youtube close to 1 year - Sony would likely have seen it and learned as much as they could from it (and anything else they could find).)

Now tell me that Sony is doing something unique...

From the tech demo you showed, the wii mote is not mapped to your hand like with the PSMotion Control because the PSMotion Control works with the PSEye so it can actually see exactly where the controller is in 3d space and place a sword or w/e into that exact spot.

With Nintendo's motion plus, it does not know where your controller is in 3d space, it just knows when you do a motion, which is why the sword/wiimote always disappear after each motion. And the part where he's hitting the balls, notice the controller does not move to his hands, it's stationary in one place, showing that because it can't see where the controller is, it's just simulating the motion, and pin the sword in one place. The last part of the demo shows exactly what I'm talking about: wii mote recognizes the motion and do a preset motion over the actual user motion because it doesn't recognize where your controller actually is, so it just gets information like "swingleft" and then on screen the "sword" will perform a "swingleft" motion, which is already being done with the regular Wiimote.

So Wii Motion Plus recognizes motion. PSMotion Control recognizes real 1-1 3 dimensional tracking.

Grevensher:
As a former Wii owner I have the following to say:

1. Nintendo never delivered on their promises. I sold my WII when I found out that not only did smash bros. not find a way to implement the new controller gimmick, but was better played with a game cube controller.

The same can be said for every other game ported to the Wii, or even games that Nintendo try to promote using motion control- ala Mario Kart Wii, which I also play using a GC controller. Perhaps I'm too old school (Ie. over 30), but give me a controller or keyboard and mouse anyday. I just find the Wii controller / Eye Toy type peripherals don't have the accuracy to make it worth using.

Now, I'd like to be proven otherwise. The tech demos from E3 look promising, but I'll remain cautious for now.

ThisNewGuy:

CrystalShadow:

Ahem. The Capabilities of the system, and how it actually gets used aren't one and the same.
(Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you will or should)

You want to know what Wii motionplus can do?
See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs

(incedentally, this video has been on youtube close to 1 year - Sony would likely have seen it and learned as much as they could from it (and anything else they could find).)

Now tell me that Sony is doing something unique...

From the tech demo you showed, the wii mote is not mapped to your hand like with the PSMotion Control because the PSMotion Control works with the PSEye so it can actually see exactly where the controller is in 3d space and place a sword or w/e into that exact spot.

With Nintendo's motion plus, it does not know where your controller is in 3d space, it just knows when you do a motion, which is why the sword/wiimote always disappear after each motion. And the part where he's hitting the balls, notice the controller does not move to his hands, it's stationary in one place, showing that because it can't see where the controller is, it's just simulating the motion, and pin the sword in one place. The last part of the demo shows exactly what I'm talking about: wii mote recognizes the motion and do a preset motion over the actual user motion because it doesn't recognize where your controller actually is, so it just gets information like "swingleft" and then on screen the "sword" will perform a "swingleft" motion, which is already being done with the regular Wiimote.

So Wii Motion Plus recognizes motion. PSMotion Control recognizes real 1-1 3 dimensional tracking.

That's a partial truth.
But I'd say you need to have a look at that video again. Yes, the remote 'vanishes' between movements, but it reappears again in the same starting spot, primarily because the guy holding it keeps moving his hand to the same spot.

And keep in mind that the the demo at the end was specifically designed to show developers used to the existing Wii dev software that the new system (motionplus) could still do the old stuff, but was more reliable in seperating certain types of movement from eachother.
(notice the last section, where you get things like down. Downleft, Down-right etc. - Is introduced by the statement: 'Livemove 2 can do TRACKING but it can ALSO simultaneously do everything that previous livemove products could do)
In other words, the reason he's demonstrating the stuff at the end it to show that his 'product' (the Livemove dev kit) can still do the old stuff with the new motionplus system, and do it better than the old one could.

The Wii remote (even with motion plus) primarily recognises movement, but it can get an absolute reference point at least some of the time.

The Wii remote's original specification is a 3-axis linear accelerometer. It can measure rotation along 2 axes by virtue of being able to use the earth's gravity as a reference direction. But this same force of gravity makes it very difficult to extract actual motion in certain directions from motion induced by the force of gravity itself.
(believe me, I've tested the raw output from a Wiimote, and have a fair idea what it does)
Hence, forward stabs, and rotation about the axis of the remote aren't really possible.
Motion plus adds a 3 axis gyroscope to the equation, meaning you now have a direct 3 axis reading of the rate of rotation, as well as linear movements. Now you can be determine exactly how the remote moves with a high degree of certaintly.

What's missing? knowing where the remote is in absolute 3d space. But guess what? The Wii remote has always had a system for determining this... It's the IR camera on the front of the remote. The one that makes the onscreen pointer possible!
As long as it's pointed at the screen, it can give you a measure of distance between the remote and the screen, x and y position relative to the sensor bar, and the rotational angle of the remote. (in theory, you could build a more effective arrangement of IR leds than the sensor bar, and get more accurate meansurements than the existing one.)

Have a look at the Wii Sport's resort videos with regard to the sword-fighting demo. - Notice it gets you to point the remote at the screen at the start of the match?
This is to get an absolute reference point for the remote's position. After which, you can follow the exact movements of the remote by acceleration readings alone.

This approach is known as dead reckoning, and it's used, for instance in aircraft navigation when GPS isn't available.
You take a known starting point, then use measurements of relative motion to determine your position - It has a disadvantage that errors in measurement slowly make the actual position drift apart from the measured one, but with accurate sensors you can go quite a while without needing to confirm your absolute position.

Does Sony's system work better? It's possible.
But don't delude yourself into thinking it's MUCH better than Motionplus technically, because it isn't.

The difference is between absolute and relative tracking. Neither is definitively better than the other, and if you have a known starting position and accurate sensors, relative tracking has the advantage that you don't need an external reference point.
With absolute tracking, the system knows where it is only relative to an external point. More reliable in some ways, but if you lose sight of the reference point, you immediately lose your position.
Both have advantages and disadvantages...

CrystalShadow:

That's a partial truth.
But I'd say you need to have a look at that video again. Yes, the remote 'vanishes' between movements, but it reappears again in the same starting spot, primarily because the guy holding it keeps moving his hand to the same spot.

And keep in mind that the the demo at the end was specifically designed to show developers used to the existing Wii dev software that the new system (motionplus) could still do the old stuff, but was more reliable in seperating certain types of movement from eachother.
(notice the last section, where you get things like down. Downleft, Down-right etc. - Is introduced by the statement: 'Livemove 2 can do TRACKING but it can ALSO simultaneously do everything that previous livemove products could do)
In other words, the reason he's demonstrating the stuff at the end it to show that his 'product' (the Livemove dev kit) can still do the old stuff with the new motionplus system, and do it better than the old one could.

The Wii remote (even with motion plus) primarily recognises movement, but it can get an absolute reference point at least some of the time.

The Wii remote's original specification is a 3-axis linear accelerometer. It can measure rotation along 2 axes by virtue of being able to use the earth's gravity as a reference direction. But this same force of gravity makes it very difficult to extract actual motion in certain directions from motion induced by the force of gravity itself.
(believe me, I've tested the raw output from a Wiimote, and have a fair idea what it does)
Hence, forward stabs, and rotation about the axis of the remote aren't really possible.
Motion plus adds a 3 axis gyroscope to the equation, meaning you now have a direct 3 axis reading of the rate of rotation, as well as linear movements. Now you can be determine exactly how the remote moves with a high degree of certaintly.

What's missing? knowing where the remote is in absolute 3d space. But guess what? The Wii remote has always had a system for determining this... It's the IR camera on the front of the remote. The one that makes the onscreen pointer possible!
As long as it's pointed at the screen, it can give you a measure of distance between the remote and the screen, x and y position relative to the sensor bar, and the rotational angle of the remote. (in theory, you could build a more effective arrangement of IR leds than the sensor bar, and get more accurate meansurements than the existing one.)

Have a look at the Wii Sport's resort videos with regard to the sword-fighting demo. - Notice it gets you to point the remote at the screen at the start of the match?
This is to get an absolute reference point for the remote's position. After which, you can follow the exact movements of the remote by acceleration readings alone.

This approach is known as dead reckoning, and it's used, for instance in aircraft navigation when GPS isn't available.
You take a known starting point, then use measurements of relative motion to determine your position - It has a disadvantage that errors in measurement slowly make the actual position drift apart from the measured one, but with accurate sensors you can go quite a while without needing to confirm your absolute position.

Does Sony's system work better? It's possible.
But don't delude yourself into thinking it's MUCH better than Motionplus technically, because it isn't.

The difference is between absolute and relative tracking. Neither is definitively better than the other, and if you have a known starting position and accurate sensors, relative tracking has the advantage that you don't need an external reference point.
With absolute tracking, the system knows where it is only relative to an external point. More reliable in some ways, but if you lose sight of the reference point, you immediately lose your position.
Both have advantages and disadvantages...

The fact that it reappears in the same spots reaffirms that it only recognizes motion. The IR pointer simply positions the wiimote to an absolute position on screen. The PSMotion Control is absolutely free, so if your hand is resting on the side, the "sword" or w/e on screen will start out at the same exact spot. With the WiiMote Plus, it sets an absolute position (in the middle) of the "sword" so it just gets inputs of relative motion to determine movement.

The only advancement of Motion Plus is that it recognizes movement much better than the original WiiMote. It recognizes different motion upon immediate change (so you can swing left and the immediately swing right, and it'll recognize that), but it does NOT recognize the position of your controller in the 3d space. It simply puts an absolute "sword" on screen, and it moves to your movement.

The IR does tell the Wii the distance, but that's not to know the position of the controller in 3d space, it's to set the absolute position of the controller so that it can recognize depth movement. It doesn't see where the controller is like the PSMotion Control, it simply tell the Wii "the controller is 5 meters away, set the 'sword' to this distance so when controller moves in depth, move the difference on screen (ie. Z = -5)." Also, the IR is very rudimentary so that it doesn't know the position at all, it's just an invisible tape measure.

So to put it in an example:
Wii Motion Plus: if your hand is resting on the side of your legs, the "sword" on screen will be in the center (or where ever the developers decide to put it in the beginning). If your hand moves, the "sword" moves with it. But if you want seemless movement like in video games, you have to restrict your "sword" to a set of preset movements, so that it's not 1-1 tracking afterall, but the Motion Plus recognizes movement so well, that devs can put a LOT of presets and the Motion Plus will recognize every subtle differences and display those presets when called.

PSMotion Control: if your hand is resting on the side of your legs, the "sword" on screen will be placed exactly in your hand. You can move it or just stay still and the Motion Control and Eye will track its 3d position at all times and can recognize very minute movements and position so that it's complete 1-1 3D tracking, not just motion tracking.

I think the PSMotion Control might be better than the Motion Plus, but only games will tell. For now, all I can say is that they're different. So when you say that Sony is just copying Nintendo and that Sony isn't bringing anything new, you just might want to check up on that.

ThisNewGuy:

CrystalShadow:

That's a partial truth.
But I'd say you need to have a look at that video again. Yes, the remote 'vanishes' between movements, but it reappears again in the same starting spot, primarily because the guy holding it keeps moving his hand to the same spot.

And keep in mind that the the demo at the end was specifically designed to show developers used to the existing Wii dev software that the new system (motionplus) could still do the old stuff, but was more reliable in seperating certain types of movement from eachother.
(notice the last section, where you get things like down. Downleft, Down-right etc. - Is introduced by the statement: 'Livemove 2 can do TRACKING but it can ALSO simultaneously do everything that previous livemove products could do)
In other words, the reason he's demonstrating the stuff at the end it to show that his 'product' (the Livemove dev kit) can still do the old stuff with the new motionplus system, and do it better than the old one could.

The Wii remote (even with motion plus) primarily recognises movement, but it can get an absolute reference point at least some of the time.

The Wii remote's original specification is a 3-axis linear accelerometer. It can measure rotation along 2 axes by virtue of being able to use the earth's gravity as a reference direction. But this same force of gravity makes it very difficult to extract actual motion in certain directions from motion induced by the force of gravity itself.
(believe me, I've tested the raw output from a Wiimote, and have a fair idea what it does)
Hence, forward stabs, and rotation about the axis of the remote aren't really possible.
Motion plus adds a 3 axis gyroscope to the equation, meaning you now have a direct 3 axis reading of the rate of rotation, as well as linear movements. Now you can be determine exactly how the remote moves with a high degree of certaintly.

What's missing? knowing where the remote is in absolute 3d space. But guess what? The Wii remote has always had a system for determining this... It's the IR camera on the front of the remote. The one that makes the onscreen pointer possible!
As long as it's pointed at the screen, it can give you a measure of distance between the remote and the screen, x and y position relative to the sensor bar, and the rotational angle of the remote. (in theory, you could build a more effective arrangement of IR leds than the sensor bar, and get more accurate meansurements than the existing one.)

Have a look at the Wii Sport's resort videos with regard to the sword-fighting demo. - Notice it gets you to point the remote at the screen at the start of the match?
This is to get an absolute reference point for the remote's position. After which, you can follow the exact movements of the remote by acceleration readings alone.

This approach is known as dead reckoning, and it's used, for instance in aircraft navigation when GPS isn't available.
You take a known starting point, then use measurements of relative motion to determine your position - It has a disadvantage that errors in measurement slowly make the actual position drift apart from the measured one, but with accurate sensors you can go quite a while without needing to confirm your absolute position.

Does Sony's system work better? It's possible.
But don't delude yourself into thinking it's MUCH better than Motionplus technically, because it isn't.

The difference is between absolute and relative tracking. Neither is definitively better than the other, and if you have a known starting position and accurate sensors, relative tracking has the advantage that you don't need an external reference point.
With absolute tracking, the system knows where it is only relative to an external point. More reliable in some ways, but if you lose sight of the reference point, you immediately lose your position.
Both have advantages and disadvantages...

The fact that it reappears in the same spots reaffirms that it only recognizes motion. The IR pointer simply positions the wiimote to an absolute position on screen. The PSMotion Control is absolutely free, so if your hand is resting on the side, the "sword" or w/e on screen will start out at the same exact spot. With the WiiMote Plus, it sets an absolute position (in the middle) of the "sword" so it just gets inputs of relative motion to determine movement.

The only advancement of Motion Plus is that it recognizes movement much better than the original WiiMote. It recognizes different motion upon immediate change (so you can swing left and the immediately swing right, and it'll recognize that), but it does NOT recognize the position of your controller in the 3d space. It simply puts an absolute "sword" on screen, and it moves to your movement.

The IR does tell the Wii the distance, but that's not to know the position of the controller in 3d space, it's to set the absolute position of the controller so that it can recognize depth movement. It doesn't see where the controller is like the PSMotion Control, it simply tell the Wii "the controller is 5 meters away, set the 'sword' to this distance so when controller moves in depth, move the difference on screen (ie. Z = -5)." Also, the IR is very rudimentary so that it doesn't know the position at all, it's just an invisible tape measure.

So to put it in an example:
Wii Motion Plus: if your hand is resting on the side of your legs, the "sword" on screen will be in the center (or where ever the developers decide to put it in the beginning). If your hand moves, the "sword" moves with it. But if you want seemless movement like in video games, you have to restrict your "sword" to a set of preset movements, so that it's not 1-1 tracking afterall, but the Motion Plus recognizes movement so well, that devs can put a LOT of presets and the Motion Plus will recognize every subtle differences and display those presets when called.

PSMotion Control: if your hand is resting on the side of your legs, the "sword" on screen will be placed exactly in your hand. You can move it or just stay still and the Motion Control and Eye will track its 3d position at all times and can recognize very minute movements and position so that it's complete 1-1 3D tracking, not just motion tracking.

I think the PSMotion Control might be better than the Motion Plus, but only games will tell. For now, all I can say is that they're different. So when you say that Sony is just copying Nintendo and that Sony isn't bringing anything new, you just might want to check up on that.

Sigh. It's different, yes. But not by enough to say that they can do radically different things.

OK. Compare this video: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/03/watch-the-playstation-motion-controller-in-action/

With this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs

(look closely, because this second video shows several different cases. One where the controller clearly resets to a standard position, one where it appears to determine a starting position from the IR sensor, then do relative tracking, and one where it pins the actual 3d coordinates of the controller in a single place. Using the most restrictive case to argue about the overall capabilities isn't very accurate.)

The IR does tell the Wii the distance, but that's not to know the position of the controller in 3d space, it's to set the absolute position of the controller so that it can recognize depth movement. It doesn't see where the controller is like the PSMotion Control, it simply tell the Wii "the controller is 5 meters away, set the 'sword' to this distance so when controller moves in depth, move the difference on screen (ie. Z = -5)." Also, the IR is very rudimentary so that it doesn't know the position at all, it's just an invisible tape measure.

Sorry. Had to pick on this one individually, because it's fundamentally wrong from a base technical perspective. The Wiimote's primary sensors (in the case of using motionplus alongside it) are 3 linear accelerometers, and a 3 axis gyroscope.
The linear accelerometers can determine linear movement in the X,Y, and Z directions. Even the Wii remote by itself can tell you this. - In theory, it means it should be able to tell you the movement of the remote in any direction (but not the orientation). If you move it up, down, left, right, forward or back, all cases should be detectable. (so you already have depth information.) The reason that doesn't work, is because you have the force of gravity acting on the sensors at all times. And because you have no way (with an unenhanced remote) of conclusively determining the orientation of the remote, you don't know which part of the force is due to gravity, and which is due to motion of the remote. THAT is the original technical limitation.
With a gyroscope as well, which the motionplus module provides, you can now get accurate information about the rotational angle of the remote as well. Thus, you can track the relative motion of the position of the remote accurately.
More to the point, the cursor movement of the Wii is done with the IR system. This means you can get a pretty accurate X and Y position, and a reasonable guess at the distance from the screen, and can probably deduce the rest from the motion sensors.
Once you have a starting coordinate, relative motion alone is sufficient until the margin of error becomes too large.

So what does Sony's video show?
It shows quite clearly that Sony's system does indeed recognise the 'position' of their controller at all times.

The Wiimote most certainly does not. - It recognises motion.
But you might want to check the logic here, because these two cases are pretty similar.

An absolute reference will tell you the exact position of an object with regard to the point of measurement (the camera, in Sony's case. Of course, their Eyetoy itself has been around for a long time, and this seems to represent a hybrid And of course it is limited by the accuracy of the sensor, and assumes nothing gets in the way). - Granted, because the camera in this case is in a fixed location, and provides a video feed, they can do the neat trick of mapping their controller position directly onto the video feed.

But in fact, from a technical perspective, this is pretty similar to the IR camera on the Wii (Which incedentally, has a resolution of 1024 by 768, and can capture motion at 100 frames per second. Due to bandwith limitations though, it generally provides the coordinates and intensity of up to 4 IR sources in the image. The Wii only uses two of them.), the reason Sony's system so much more impressive in apparent function, is because the Wii's IR camera has a field of view of maybe 90 degrees at most, and that's focused at the front of the controller, while the IR LEDs in the sensor bar are telling the Wii remote where it is in 3d space (From the IR arrangement the Wii uses, you can determine an accurate X and Y position, and a considerably less accurate Z position, as well as determine a 'roll' angle for the remote - but you can't distinguish 'pitch' and 'yaw' easily if at all, and you can't really detemine from the IR data alone wether the remote is upside down.), but only so long as the LEDs are within this narrow field of view.

The Playstation setup is essentially reversed. The positioning LED's are on the controller, while the camera determining positions is on the TV side. Obviously, you need a more complicated LED setup here to be able to tell one side of the controller from another, but the general principle is pretty similar to the IR camera the Wii uses.

You really want to see how similar the IR function is to the technology that sony has implemented? watch at 2:22 as he's shining a virtual torch around... That's the same principle as the onscreen pointer for the Wii.
And the first person shooter demo. Great. Except... That's almost identical to Red Steel.

Here's some more demos
Stacking blocks: That's a tricky one, but you don't need absolute position data to pull it off. Accurate relative motion would do it pretty much just as well.
Whiteboard / drawing example: Uh HELLO? I've witnessed the Wii pointer doing this. Accuracy is a good point. But the general idea? - Try the photo channel.
Selection / RTS comments - ahem. Do I even need to explain this one? The cursors being used are so obviously similar to the Wii's pointer that it should speak for itself. (I've always maintained the the Wii was the only console that had the input required to do RTS well, and the comments here just prove my point. - Pity no developer has ever bothered to try it. But I guess with Sony's new system it becomes a moot point.)
Sword demo: Hmm. Remind you of anything? Because it certainly reminds me of something. The character is likely generated using Inverse Kinematics. Other than that, it's very close to the Wii dev kit video's demo. (watch the motion of the Wii guy's arm's relative to the sword on the screen when he's hitting that dummy.) - And watch the character in sony's demo - It's posture does not match how the guy controlling it is standing, even if the hands are in the right place.
Throwing star examples: Pretty much the same in most regards as the Wii motionplus examples of similar motion
Bow and arrow: Hard to comment on this one, since it fundamentally relies on two controllers. Although it's likely that given how the system works, you'll temporarily lose tracking (for a split-second) doing this particular motion.
Fundamentally, you could duplicate it with motionplus, but it does pretty much rely on dual controllers. I would be quite interested to see how Sony's system interprets his posture when he drops down on one knee like he did at the end of this...

A lot of fun, sure. But there's nothing it's doing that is fundamentally unique except perhaps mapping it directly back onto the live video feed that the system is getting the information from in the first place.
If this works better than motionplus, it'd be because of presision, not fundamental capability. (and by precision I mean wether you can easily put something within a 1 cm space, or a 1 mm one...)

I can prove what a normal Wii remote can do, because I've experimented with it's raw output myself.
I'm quite curious to see just what the real-world consequences of the gyroscope in the motionplus module are on this raw output, because I already deduced ages ago that a simple way to overcome the limitations the controller had (before I ever heard of motionplus) would be to plug in the nunchuk (which has an accelerometer of it's own) and strap it to the remote using a bit of wood so that you cannot move them independently of eachother anymore.
You now have two accelerometers with fixed motion relative to eachother, and you can (in theory) calculate proper motion now. This, essentially, seems to be what motionplus does.

Different implementation, same result is what it comes down to in the end.

Place the Wiimote at a position where the sensor bar is visible, and just to be safe, making sure it's level. (due to limitations on determining Pitch and Yaw of the remote from IR data) You now have a known starting point and angle.
After that, the gyroscope and accelerometers can tell you enough to determine an absolute path from relative motion alone. At least, until your measurement error becomes too large, at which point you need a new 'fix', otherwise things become too inaccurate.

In any event, One to One control is doable by both, as far as I understand the underlying technology. - What Sony's got here could be (much) more accurate, but that doesn't mean it can fundamentally do anything that Motionplus can't. (and Sony's demonstration pretty much proves it.)

That's not to say it's a bad system, because it clearly isn't. And Nintendo suffers inherently because the Wiimote has issues by itself. (again, i've experimented with it's raw output. I am accutely aware of it's limitations. - And I quickly established what would overcome most of those problems (roundabout begin 2008), which pretty much seems to be what motionplus is. - Nintendo claims the reason it's being done now, rather than back then is a cost issue.)

So let me be absolutely clear. Sony's video does not fundamentally demonstrate capabilities that motionplus is incapable of replicating. It does however suggest it will probably do it with more consistent accuracy.
So well done Sony. Now go and do something useful with it...

CrystalShadow:
lots of text

Sorry, but I don't have the patience to read all that.

From what I've gathered, you still believe that Sony's motion control will do what the Wii Mote Plus does.

I'm saying no. WiiMote games will have a "sword" in an automatic starting location and is moved relatively by the sensing of motion. Sony's Motion Control places the sword in your hand.

In other words, Wii places your hands in some "sword", PS3 places the "sword" in your hand.

And since Wii senses motion, it's very easy to fool the system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbiFVKEPOp8

Notice the best way to play tennis with the WiiMote is not to swing in a realistic way, but to snap it because the Wiimote only senses motion. Motion Plus only does this too, but in a more accurate way so you can snap two moves, and the motion plus will recognize both moves.

That is VERY very different than what the PS3 Motion control can do. PS3's motion control tracks position, so doing that snapping technique will show the same snapping motion on screen.

How does this relate to actual games?

Let's say we want to use motion control for Heavy Rain. Wii will let the users do motions to match the quick timed presets on screen. PS3 Motion Control will eliminate these presets all together so that the player is actually doing whatever they want and the characters will reflect those exact movement.

Since you couldn't be bothered reading my response, I can't be bothered on commenting on why you are making up differences that really don't mean much.

The Wii senses linear motion. Motionplus means it can properly recognise rotational motion too.

What you completely neglect is the Wii pointer, and how it relates to all this.

But hey. You don't read, so I can say all I like and you'll never notice why (or what) about your statements is wrong.

Edit: You know what? Let me try to give a consise answer here.
This is where you're going wrong:

Let's say we want to use motion control for Heavy Rain. Wii will let the users do motions to match the quick timed presets on screen. PS3 Motion Control will eliminate these presets all together so that the player is actually doing whatever they want and the characters will reflect those exact movement.

These presets aren't nessesary for the Wii. They ARE commonly used, but they aren't nessesary. The original hardware puts heavy limits on what you can measure directly, but it can be done. (see fishing in Zelda, twilight princess. - It's limited to 2 axes of rotation, but it IS otherwise 1 to 1 mapping of your motion. NOT a preset movement - Similarly, rotating the gun in Red steel is also a 1 to 1 mapping, but again only of a single axis of rotation)

Motionplus can't easily determine an exact starting point. but it CAN do actual tracking of arbitrary movements (unlike the unmodified Wii controller, which does not provide enough data for full 6-axis tracking, and hence tends to either restrict the number of axes measured, or use pattern recognition instead. - Both can still be done with motionplus, but they are no longer strictly nessesary.). That's what you fail to understand, and THAT is why there is less difference than you think there is.

KDR_11k:

Er, what? You realize the Wiimote and nunchuk have quite a few buttons, an analog stick and a dpad in addition to the whole motion deal? The Wii has had combined button and motion inputs since the beginning.

Of course, but the Wii-mote's motion sensing is horribly wonky. I'm saying the Sony remotes, with buttons added, would be better than the Wii-motes complete as they are.

OK. So I've shown sony's demo. So how about we see Nintendo trying to demonstrate Motionplus?

What does it show? Firstly, nintendo sucks at presentation right now. Even so... Notice the emphasis it gives to 1 to 1 tracking of motion...

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2008-wii-sports/36398

Oh, and just for laughs, Archery: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-wii-sports/50322
Sony's demo looks more impressive here. But again, it's a matter of degrees, rather than fundamental ability.

"It knows exactly where her hand is. That's what Wii motionplus does."

In other words, precisely what I was trying to say. Both Motionplus and sony's system can do 1 to 1 tracking. If there's a difference, it's in the degree of accuracy. Not actual capability.

Ahem. You were saying?

KDR_11k:

300lb. Samoan:
Exactly my thoughts. The Wii-Mote and XBox-bar do gestures, the Sony-motes do real live INPUT. Put analog sticks, d-pads and triggers on those things and you'll have the best of both worlds - a playstation controler and a set of wii-chuks

Er, what? You realize the Wiimote and nunchuk have quite a few buttons, an analog stick and a dpad in addition to the whole motion deal? The Wii has had combined button and motion inputs since the beginning.

asam92:
i just am hoping that they dont make any games that are dedicated to only using the motion sensing control, all there games they make with this should have "Optional Motion sensitive controls" so they dont release a game that looks really great only to be ruined by crappy motion sensitive controls, Hardcore gamers (like myself) don't want these controls, they are too gimmicky.

They are gimmicky when they are shoehorned into a game design meant for buttons. If the game is perfectly playable with a standard controller then motion controls CANNOT be more than a gimmick, a pointless addition. You complain that the controls are gimmicky and then demand that they remain gimmicky. They can do things regular controllers cannot and then they aren't gimmicky but too many game developers FAIL at developing games like that.

I never demanded they remain gimmicky, I am just saying all this time ninty and other 3rd party developers have had around 3 years to make a game that relies on motion sensitivity to work and they are yet to make a good one
They can make all the motion sensitivity crap they want, but I personally wont play any of them that rely on it until they get it right

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here